Bishthebosh

Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« on: February 27, 2019, 12:05:34 AM »


I’m wondering what people think about these images of the Earth from the Deep Space Climate Observatory?

Warm regards

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 11:05:46 PM »
NASA has done much better work.
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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2019, 01:17:17 AM »
Even an amateur FE'r like myself can see this as the propaganda it is. If their arguments weren't so one sided they would have more credibility.

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2019, 08:27:35 AM »
Even an amateur FE'r like myself can see this as the propaganda it is. If their arguments weren't so one sided they would have more credibility.
Is your claim that this is fake?
What is your evidence for that claim?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

SeaCritique

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 04:49:49 PM »
Is your claim that this is fake?
What is your evidence for that claim?

I imagine that "pictures" of the Earth from a million miles away must be proven, not the other way around.


Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 05:30:13 PM »
You claim it's fake so the burden falls on you to prove it (according your own link that states the burden falls on whoever makes the claim). "and if this burden is not met, the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it." - since you don't want to back up your claim I guess it's unfounded and we need not argue further about it.


And as for your other link, yes, the simplest answer is that the earth is round and there are satellites taking photos and everything just works. The complex answer is some huge and elaborate conspiracy is in place to cover up a flat earth...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 05:32:01 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

SeaCritique

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 05:44:07 PM »
You claim it's fake so the burden falls on you to prove it (according your own link that states the burden falls on whoever makes the claim). "and if this burden is not met, the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it." - since you don't want to back up your claim I guess it's unfounded and we need not argue further about it.

Then we disagree on who the burden falls upon.

And as for your other link, yes, the simplest answer is that the earth is round and there are satellites taking photos and everything just works. The complex answer is some huge and elaborate conspiracy is in place to cover up a flat earth...

You're the one postulating some "elaborate conspiracy."

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 06:05:37 PM »
SC, you are committing logical fallacy of argument from ignorance.

The definition is such: It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.

Therefore your claim that the photo is fake is true only because we have not proven your claim to be false is a logical fallacy. Or the opposite, that the claim that the photo is real is false because we have not proven it to be true.



If there is a dispute, the burden of proof falls onto the challenger of the status quo from the perspective of any given social narrative.[23] If there is no agreeable and adequate proof of evidence to support a claim, the claim is considered an argument from ignorance.[24]

In this regards, we are the status quo (REer). You are making the claim it is fake. You have no evidence this particular photo is fake. It is therefore an argument from ignorance and an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 06:51:46 PM »
Is your claim that this is fake?
What is your evidence for that claim?

I imagine that "pictures" of the Earth from a million miles away must be proven, not the other way around.
Well. Obviously it’s not possible to prove this.
But you could say that about anything.
If we are going to be strict about it, you can’t prove anything outside of the limited language of mathematics.
I don’t like that Occam’s razor page for 2 reasons. Firstly, it implies that Occam’s razor is an immutable law of the universe when actually it’s more of a rule of thumb.
Secondly, it’s highly subjective what is the “simplest” explanation, you can write things in different ways to imply that the thing you’ve decided to believe is the simplest explanation.

Given that we can’t prove these photos are real and you can’t prove they are fake we have to go by balance of probabilities.
Firstly, is space travel a thing? Well, I’ve seen a shuttle launch so I’m going to say yes it is. Hundreds of people have been into space, 7 of those are space tourists who paid for the privilege. Am I to believe that all of these people are lying? All the photos and film they’ve taken are faked? My satellite dish is pointing at something. I know this because when my neighbour put up some scaffolding which blocked line of sight my TV signal went. On a work trip to Sri Lanka I observed that the dishes there point up at a far steeper angle than they do in the UK. This all tallies with what I’m told about the TV satellites being a in geostationary orbit above the equator. My GPS works, I’m told this is by a network of orbiting satellites. The ISS can be seen from earth, there are websites which tell you when and where.

So, I have lots of reasons to believe that space travel is possible and satellites are real, I don’t have any real basis to think all this is faked somehow. So why would I think these photos are fake when all of the technology necessary to take them exists?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

SeaCritique

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 07:20:16 PM »
SC, you are committing logical fallacy of argument from ignorance.

According to Texas State University, the "fallacy occurs when you argue that your conclusion must be true, because there is no evidence against it. This fallacy wrongly shifts the burden of proof away from the one making the claim.

When did I say, "My conclusion is true; there is no evidence against it?" I am discussing a different conclusion all together -- that the presented video is showing verifiable, genuine images of Earth. I am, also, implying that round earth is the claim. It's an inherently bolder, more extraordinary claim. We have to agree on the initial claim before we can move forward with any further discussion. If we can't agree, that's that.

And if you think I'm misinterpreting or misunderstanding what you're trying to say, please re-explain your thoughts to me. Maybe I'm just an idiot.  ::)

If there is a dispute, the burden of proof falls onto the challenger of the status quo from the perspective of any given social narrative.[23] If there is no agreeable and adequate proof of evidence to support a claim, the claim is considered an argument from ignorance.[24]

Where did you copy and paste this part of the definition from?

In this regards, we are the status quo (REer). You are making the claim it is fake. You have no evidence this particular photo is fake. It is therefore an argument from ignorance and an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

I disagree. The "social narrative" bit, at least to me, seems a distraction. What if the social narrative was still, as it once was, "Diseases are caused by demons, evil spirits, impurity; the cures are exorcisms, blood-letting, piety?" Those beliefs are utterly, unequivocally wrong. Was it ignorant of those who, way-back when and without much evidence, went against the grain on account of philosophical thought and, frankly, common sense?

SeaCritique

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 07:30:47 PM »
Well. Obviously it’s not possible to prove this.

Gotcha!  ;)

But you could say that about anything.
If we are going to be strict about it, you can’t prove anything outside of the limited language of mathematics.
I don’t like that Occam’s razor page for 2 reasons. Firstly, it implies that Occam’s razor is an immutable law of the universe when actually it’s more of a rule of thumb.
Secondly, it’s highly subjective what is the “simplest” explanation, you can write things in different ways to imply that the thing you’ve decided to believe is the simplest explanation.

Agree to disagree, but okay.

Given that we can’t prove these photos are real and you can’t prove they are fake we have to go by balance of probabilities.

Sure.

Firstly, is space travel a thing? Well, I’ve seen a shuttle launch so I’m going to say yes it is.

You've seen a shuttle launch into space? You're either very tall or space is very close.

Hundreds of people have been into space, 7 of those are space tourists who paid for the privilege. Am I to believe that all of these people are lying?

Governments aren't particularly truthful and eccentric, loose-screw rich people are particularly common.

All the photos and film they’ve taken are faked?

Perhaps. It's plausible. Hollywood sure is a thing.

My satellite dish is pointing at something. I know this because when my neighbour put up some scaffolding which blocked line of sight my TV signal went. On a work trip to Sri Lanka I observed that the dishes there point up at a far steeper angle than they do in the UK. This all tallies with what I’m told about the TV satellites being a in geostationary orbit above the equator. My GPS works, I’m told this is by a network of orbiting satellites. The ISS can be seen from earth, there are websites which tell you when and where.

The sun and the moon are up there, so why not some satellites? A point difference may be whether or not people are actually on the "ISS."

So, I have lots of reasons to believe that space travel is possible and satellites are real, I don’t have any real basis to think all this is faked somehow. So why would I think these photos are fake when all of the technology necessary to take them exists?

The technology to fake such photos is cheaper, more accessible, and developed earlier, I'd imagine.

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2019, 02:32:47 AM »
The sun and the moon are up there, so why not some satellites? A point difference may be whether or not people are actually on the "ISS."

You need to know the altitude of the satellite (and azimuth obviously) to aim the dish. Otherwise you won't get a signal. In the case of a geostationary satellite, the altitude is approximately 22,236 miles. This is in conflict with a lot of FE models but is verified every time someone in a different location aims a satellite dish at the same satellite. You only need three dishes to confirm you are pointing to the same coordinate in 3D space though.

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2019, 02:35:02 AM »


I’m wondering what people think about these images of the Earth from the Deep Space Climate Observatory?

Warm regards

NASA states the DSCOVER has a FOV of 62 degrees.  That being the case,  Earth should only be taking up 1% of the frame in this shot, but instead it's taking up pretty much most of the shot.     It's a little bit like if I was standing on a football field with an iphone and 100 yards away on the other end was a football player and I took a video of him, but he was the only thing in the shot.  No grass, no goal post, just him in the shot.     Before you  or anyone comes back with a comment like "Zoom lens", the video CLEARLY states this is Earth as SEEN from 1 million miles away.    All things being equal, whether you believe in flat earth or ball earth, NASA has just been caught in a lie.  Whether it's a lie about the distance (if you're a ball Earther) or a lie about  this being a real video, a lie was told here.   Remember that next time NASA states something as fact.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2019, 02:48:20 AM »
NASA states the DSCOVER has a FOV of 62 degrees. 

Incorrect.  NASA states that it has a FOV of 0.62 degrees.
Field of view that EPIC sees

The EPIC instrument has a field of view (FOV) of 0.62 degrees, which is sufficient to image the entire Earth, which has a nominal size of 0.5 degrees. Because of the tilted (Lissajous) orbit about the L‐1 point, the apparent angular size of the Earth changes during the 6-month orbital period from 0.45 to 0.53 degrees.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2019, 02:06:19 PM »
I imagine that "pictures" of the Earth from a million miles away must be proven, not the other way around.

If someone turns up in court and presents a photo of some aspect of the case to the judge and jury, are they expected to prove its provenance, or is that taken as read?
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 02:23:46 PM »
I imagine that "pictures" of the Earth from a million miles away must be proven, not the other way around.

If someone turns up in court and presents a photo of some aspect of the case to the judge and jury, are they expected to prove its provenance, or is that taken as read?
A single photo might be arguable. What about multiple photos and video evidence? That holds up in court for sure.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 04:35:24 PM »
I imagine that "pictures" of the Earth from a million miles away must be proven, not the other way around.

If someone turns up in court and presents a photo of some aspect of the case to the judge and jury, are they expected to prove its provenance, or is that taken as read?
What kind of provenance would you accept in order to properly authenticate pictures of the earth claimed to be taken from a distance of one million miles?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2019, 11:18:59 PM »
okay, so I'm Not saying in necessarily believe this BUT what IF these "views" from Space and the Space Station, Satellites, or whatever is  camouflage put in place by "The Prince of the Power of the Air"? The Pictures are pretty undeniable, but the Subject of the picture may not be Actual. 

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2019, 01:19:35 PM »
"The Prince of the Power of the Air"

Oh my God. Is he still about?
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

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Offline EartherUnMaster

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Re: Earth seem from 1 million miles.
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2019, 01:27:57 AM »
(apologies if this is a necro, but it's within the first page of the discussion board so I believe it's still reasonable to reply)

The way I see it, the substantiation of the claim that "these are images of the earth from 1 million miles away" is the video itself. It can be imagined as the first 'level' of evidence. If no effective refutal is made, then for all intents and purposes the statement can be considered true. To anyone to refutes it and claims "those images are fake", that is a seperate claim that requires its own proof. If such a claim can be demonstrated, such as showing the cameras won't be fuctional in that eviroment, or revealing how such images can be made from scratch, or even better showing the forgery being done, then that would be the next level of proof. If no effective refutal beyond that, then it can be considered fact that the images are fake. This continues until either side has no ability to refute the previous point.

So in my opinion, the video is proof until it's shown that it's not.