We need a map
« on: February 11, 2019, 05:55:22 AM »
Hey guys, please try to keep the unrelated chatter down here.
We really need to get together a core group of folks with a little math skills and a little flat earth skills and figure out the map.
Nobody of average intelligence is going to take us seriously if we can't come up with a working map, right?

It seems to me it should be rather straight forward - just a matter of plane geometry. We make flat maps of buildings, massive landscape projects, and even whole cities.
Mapping a flat earth onto a flat paper cannot be that hard.
I know I'm pretty new to flat earth but what's the hangup?

I am glad to help where I can, but I need a boost from some of you guys to figure out where we stand and what doesn't work and what needs to be done.

To you globers, please try to limit your "Can't be dones" or at least keep them short and sweet.

Everybody's got a right to have a working map and we need ours.

Where do we start? What's the best work done so far, and how far along did we get?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:56:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: We need a map
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 10:00:53 AM »
To you globers, please try to limit your "Can't be dones" or at least keep them short and sweet.
Well, it can't be done with the distances Google Maps claims are between places. I've demonstrated that here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

Maybe the distances are in error but Google Maps is used every day by many people to get around so you'd think there's a pretty high level of confidence in their maps.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: We need a map
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 05:34:29 PM »
To you globers, please try to limit your "Can't be dones" or at least keep them short and sweet.
Well, it can't be done with the distances Google Maps claims are between places. I've demonstrated that here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

Maybe the distances are in error but Google Maps is used every day by many people to get around so you'd think there's a pretty high level of confidence in their maps.

You're not helping any  ;D

We need constructive help here folks!
If we were saying the earth was a cone or a cube or a pyramid or hey maybe it's a mobius strip?
Anyway, there's a lot of shapes that would be very difficult to make a flat scaled map for.

But flat is not one of them.

Flat is the easiest of all shapes to make a flat  map of.

And I'm not saying that we haven't got anything because we haven't got a map, but if we cannot get a map then people are definitely gonna look at us funny.

But hey they still watch the videos and we still get the ad revenue so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: We need a map
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 05:47:21 PM »
I think it was pretty constructive, I was actually going to post the same link when I got the chance. AATW has started a map based on what flat earthers think is a trusted source for distances, using honest maths under the assumption that the earth his indeed flat. Whether or not cities don't line up is beside the point, it is a strong method of mapping locations based on distances.

EDIT: Also just to make a point of this, you're the first flat earther that's been so polite and open minded that I've seen on here, it's quite refreshing. :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:49:00 PM by ChrisTP »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: We need a map
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 10:04:56 PM »
Yes, the flat earth society needs a nice map.
Unfortunately, I don't think the results will be particularly good, except for a display, or a door stop.

Why, because of math.  Keep in mind that mathematics is completely earth agnostic.  It doesn't care, it just generates numbers.
I did a test calculation between two points   50 North by 40 West  and   30 North by 60 West.   The distance between these two points
were calculated first using the flat earth model using the diameter / radius numbers in the wiki on this site.  I came up with a number of
about 1786 nautical miles between these points using a couple of different methods.  Both yielded the same answers. 
Then I calculated the distance between these two points using the standard round earth methods can came up with a distance of 1502 nautical miles.

This is a substantial difference.  Of course the moral of this story is no matter what map you come up with, there will be a difference between
flat earth distances and round earth distances as measured on the map between any two stated coordinates.   Keep in mind that over short distances
there won't be much of a difference. 

In my example case the distances would make a difference to an airliner.  Even flying at 500 knots the extra miles would be about 30 minutes of flying time.

If the flat earth society wants to sell a flat earth map then it's time to start disputing the distances between airports / seaports all over the world. 

Either the stated distances are in substantial error or the flat earth paradigm is the problem.   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: We need a map
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2019, 07:16:49 PM »
I think it was pretty constructive, I was actually going to post the same link when I got the chance. AATW has started a map based on what flat earthers think is a trusted source for distances, using honest maths under the assumption that the earth his indeed flat. Whether or not cities don't line up is beside the point, it is a strong method of mapping locations based on distances
I was pretty disappointed in the lack of FE response to that because if those distances are right then I reckon I’ve pretty conclusively proven the earth isn’t flat.
If the distances are wrong of course then I haven’t but then it needs to be explained how Google Maps is used so reliably by millions of people every day and yet is not accurate.
If they are sincere in their beliefs and want to advance their ideas and work towards a working model then you’d think there would be more engagement with this sort of thing.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: We need a map
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 09:33:44 PM »
I was pretty disappointed in the lack of FE response to that because if those distances are right then I reckon I’ve pretty conclusively proven the earth isn’t flat.
If the distances are wrong of course then I haven’t but then it needs to be explained how Google Maps is used so reliably by millions of people every day and yet is not accurate.
If they are sincere in their beliefs and want to advance their ideas and work towards a working model then you’d think there would be more engagement with this sort of thing.

Yeah, I'm surprised too. I kind of feel all alone.

But I think I got an idea we can do and I think I mentioned it in another topic, if people like it maybe we can start forming some plans here.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: We need a map
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 10:09:55 PM »
The basic issue here is mathematics.  One way I did my calculations was using the 'law of cosines'.  This law is interesting because it can be applied to Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry.  There are a few differences in the equations depending on whether you are applying it to a sphere or a flat plane.  When I applied it to a sphere I did make the assumption that the sphere was perfectly round.  The earth is a little elliptical and I didn't do any corrections for that but my answers should be accurate to within a couple hundreds of a percent. 

When you look at the Wiki you only see a rough approximation of the radius of the earth so I wasn't expecting anything very accurate in the flat earth example.  The main problem, I suspect, is the lack of mathematical skills of the average flat earth advocate.  I was an engineer by training and took a whole lot of mathematics in college.  It did take me quite a while to get up to speed on the mathematics of geodesy so I can imagine that it would be close to impossible for someone who only took a little math in high school to understand just how the equations really work.  One the other hand, applying the law of cosines on a flat plane is a whole lot easier, but you will get a different answer if you apply it to a sphere.   

There is really little serious hope for the flat earth model unless you can create a map with accurate distances AND bearings between all locations.  If you study the math long enough you will eventually be convinced that the earth is a globe.  I was also trained as a commercial pilot and a ship's officer.  I know for a fact that the distances between airports and sea ports always are accurate.  Otherwise there would be a potential safety issue.  Additionally your GPS system is also based upon the earth being a sphere.  Now I know that there will be some that will claim that the GPS system is based upon a bunch of transmitters on balloons.  The crazy thing about that is it wouldn't matter.  You could get a GPS system to work that way (but it wouldn't be practical).  All the mathematics to calculate your position is all done in your receiver, and it's all based on the earth being a sphere.  If you use the data transmitted from a GPS satellite and apply it to a flat plane you won't get a accurate answer. I've been on countless flights between the US, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.  It would be difficult for an airline to cheat on speeds and/or distances.  Many people have GPS receivers that they take on airplanes.  I'm one of them.  My laptop had a very nice GPS receiver built in as well as the one on my iPhone.  Both were known to be accurate because I compared them side by side with the GPS receivers on the ship that I worked on.  Don't get the idea that shipping companies can cheat either.  We often carried half a billion dollars worth of cargo and many shippers had their own GPS receiver coupled to a Sat C transmitter attached to the top of their container.  They knew at all times just where their cargo was.  There are multiple ship tracking websites so you can see the position, course & speed of any ship you are interested in.  My wife often used one of these sites and could see just where I was in the world, in real time.  Aircraft also have a satellite based system as well.  If a customer has critical cargo aboard an international flight don't you think that someone in the office is keeping a close eye on what the plane is doing?  Don't get the idea that either the distances between airports are inaccurate or that the airlines are cheating on speeds or distances.  Sure, you can have either big head winds or tail winds that will effect the ground speed of an airliner.  You can also have the captain intentionally slow the aircraft because of known traffic delays or a situation at the gate at the destination airport.  I would say that more than 50% of the long flights I was on arrived either on time or ahead of schedule.  Some were delayed because of bad weather. 

So now the flat earth movement has another huge hurdle to get over.  If you want to be taken seriously you have to have a map that is accurate and verifiable so airplanes and ships can accurately navigate between two points on the earth.  Lives literally depend on it.  Mine has been for years. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 03:39:46 AM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.