Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #180 on: August 31, 2014, 04:40:04 AM »
At this point, I do not attempt to follow this. My level of observance is my own. At some point, I may attempt to follow it. But, for the most part, I usually wear cotton pants and cotton shirts. I don't wear wool except rarely in winter, as its too damned hot, even that time of year. A Jew's observance is always his own. No other Jew would ever ask him about it, except maybe his own Rabbi. I am not offended by the question, but it would not be asked within the community.

Multiple materials are defined as exactly that: different cloths. Leather is not a cloth, so someone can wear cotton and leather shoes, for example, but not cotton pants and a polyester shirt. The prohibition refers to CLOTHING, not protective gear for the feet (ie, shoes), or things like that. Mind you, this is, of course, all interpreted. I suppose there might be some who have disagreements with the interpretations.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7247
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #181 on: August 31, 2014, 04:52:06 AM »
Is the rule taboo to talk about? The Bible does put forth a lot of rules to live by and some are strangely specific. Is it ever considered that some of the rules may be worded incorrectly, or the meaning of certain words has evolved over the years and twisted the original meaning? For example, you make a specific distinction between clothing and shoes. What if that is not the case?

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2923
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #182 on: August 31, 2014, 04:52:25 AM »
Why would "materials" only refer to "cloths"? Why are shoes not clothing? Why don't you take this rule seriously?
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #183 on: August 31, 2014, 04:30:56 PM »
I shall try to answer the questions, and then must go offline for a few days, as I am violently sick with God only knows what. The rule is not taboo to talk about. It is not even taboo to ask another Jew about his level of observance, although it is only rarely done. What IS taboo is to make value judgements ABOUT another Jew's level of observance. This is considered to be extremely rude, and will be quickly met with a "Go fuck yourself" response. Its like going into someone's house as their guest and criticising the decor.

It is, of course, perfectly legitimate to ask, if one is a guest in another Jew's home, what level of kosher they keep, so you know whether you are able to partake of the food. But, usually, asking isn't necessary. If you are an Orthodox Jew and you are in a Reform Jew's home, you can probably be pretty sure that he doesn't keep strict kosher to the degree that you do.

In terms of what are classified as clothes and what are not, I suppose that definition COULD have changed over the years. In fact, to be honest, it probably has. Could that have caused "issues"? Perhaps so. I just go with the most common interpretation, and leave it at that.

For me its not that I don't take the rule seriously. I fact I do. Its that I am trying to follow the other 612 (quite literally; there are 613 Commandments of the Law), and something has to give!

Seriously, it is hard for a Jew, almost impossible, to follow all the commandments (of which for men currently performable today in the absence of a Temple there are about 230, and for a female about 270 [the laws on female cleanliness provide a few more for her]). So, we do the best we can. We are not perfect. But every day we strive for greater observance, and to be better Jews.

I appreciate the questions, sincerely. But I have to ask for a pause for a few days, as I am very sick with some kind of bronchial infection that is just making me want to lie abed and get well. I shall come back when I feel better. Thanks.


*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 5840
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #184 on: August 31, 2014, 04:45:00 PM »
LORD DAVE, Ever heard of the Hebron Massacre of I think 1929? And Turks are confusing. I don't know what they are, but given Erdogan's antics, I don't know how much I trust their so-called "moderation".
You mean the massacre spread by misinformation about Jews taking control of Muslim areas? 

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #185 on: August 31, 2014, 06:01:25 PM »
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.


Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #186 on: August 31, 2014, 06:20:28 PM »
My level of observance is my own. ... A Jew's observance is always his own.

First: How can you claim any moral authority if each person gets to follow the religion however they like? Eg I'm a Christian but I still enjoy murdering.

Second: This is bullshit and you're living in a make believe world. The more religious the community the more that community, and not just its leaders, will judge its members.



NB it's pretty hard to google anything negative about judaism without links being returned that baww about WWII. Just sayin'.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #187 on: September 01, 2014, 12:06:53 PM »
FAPP, humourous, but rather inaccurate as these things go. There haven't been any nuclear bombs going off (yet). As far as moral authority, perhaps I should have specified that outside the ultra-Orthodox community things tend to be as I have described them. And further, just because a Jew's observance is his own doesn't mean that we all don't try for greater observance and obedience. Most of us, except the very lax Reform types, do.

The only thing I meant by "a Jew's observance is his own" is that another Jew does not typically judge a person's observance, unless he is that person's Rabbi or other spiritual leader (Cantor, or rarely, some other office). This is NOT to say that a Jew can get away with what he wants and still call himself a good Jew. That would be foolish, as you correctly note.

I'll sign off again for a day or too, as I've exhausted what strength I had to type this much.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #188 on: September 01, 2014, 02:08:30 PM »
I wish to clarify, for the record, AGAIN,  what I said, so the willfully stupid can't interpret it the wrong way. EVERY  religious Jew that I have ever met has ALWAYS been trying for greater observance of the commandments. The moral ones come first. Not murdering, not taking shit that isn't yours, not screwing your neighbour's wife, these are obviously big ones. Ritual commandments come later, after you have trained yourself in the "don't fuck over your buddy" rules. This is where you get to not eating pigs, and other certain things, and wearing certain clothes with other clothes, and so-forth.

Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid. And before we get started on Israel, please note that that subject has been covered to death, and Hamas is claiming a victory. So let them have their so-called "victory". I expect, of course, in about 3 more years we'll all be back at this point, just as we have twice before (not counting this time for a total of three times). But, hey, let them have their "victory".

I have to run. Sick though I am, I have things to do with my equally sick wife, like getting groceries for the week.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #189 on: September 01, 2014, 02:38:35 PM »
Incidentally, I know this is a complete non sequitur, but whatever happened to Excelsior John?

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #190 on: September 01, 2014, 02:49:03 PM »
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

God told me in a dream that he was giving me your car. I expect the keys in the mail by next week.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 6865
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #191 on: September 01, 2014, 02:53:40 PM »
Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid.

No it is not stupid, it is quite germane actually. On the one hand, the moral commandments are the most important to master first but on the other hand when you break Israeli's break it by killing school children it is ok. It is an insidious double standard and you ought to feel like a fool for subscribing to a system of belief that is so sociopathic.

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 6865
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #192 on: September 01, 2014, 02:54:38 PM »
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

Isn't possession 9/10ths of the law? 

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #193 on: September 01, 2014, 02:58:40 PM »
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #194 on: September 01, 2014, 03:15:11 PM »
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

If the "Israelis" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop slaughtering children. Simple solution to the problem. "When it is quiet in Gaza, it will be quiet in Israel."
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 6865
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #195 on: September 01, 2014, 03:20:25 PM »
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

What does your statement have to do with being a good Jew other than reinforcing the wrathful zeal that Israeli's sometimes apply to being immoral?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #196 on: September 01, 2014, 03:22:51 PM »
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever. Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 5840
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #197 on: September 01, 2014, 03:31:15 PM »
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/avedah2.html

Quote
Jewish law recognizes that property may become ownerless by one of two means: (1) abandonment, which is an express renunciation by the former owner of his ownership; or (2) express or implied "forsaking hope" of reclaiming an object which one has legal title, but not possession by the owner of that item. Abandonment is effective only for property in one's own possession at the time of abandonment. By contrast, forsaking hope is applicable to both lost and stolen property; it is a relinquishment of the right to have the property returned. It results from external, involuntary circumstances which have placed the property beyond the possession of the owner, and the owner's realization that he is unlikely to ever recover his property. These juridical concepts in Jewish law find nearly perfect analogy in the common law doctrines of relinquishment and abandonment.  For example, after abandonment in Jewish law and abandonment in common law, the finder of lost property can properly exercise dominion over the object, thereby vesting title and absolute ownership in himself.

Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 12:28:03 AM by Lord Dave »

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 6865
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #198 on: September 01, 2014, 04:12:54 PM »
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever.

Sounds like you need to work on being a good Jew.

Quote
Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

Except when it is Jewish settlers invading lands they are forbidden by treaty to settle mirite?

Quote
It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.

You did a terrible job of cutting off any lines of inquiry. In fact all you did was bring it to the fore. Well played Trollstein.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #199 on: September 01, 2014, 07:19:25 PM »
QUOTE: "Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected."

Except that no Jew at any time ever relinquished hope of a return to Jerusalem and the Holy Land. In fact, it has been said in Passover Seders across the world EXCEPT in Eretz Israel, "Next year in Jerusalem." All Jews knew that it would be ours again eventually. So the principle of abandoning hope does not apply.

Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.