Offline iamcpc

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2019, 01:27:36 AM »
I don't see any similar independent validation and checks for the claims of astronomy. It appears that you guys don't care about validation or inquiry at all.

How many astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists and similar folk do you think there are in the world, Tom?

Certainly far more than the number of Flat Earthers. The number of amateur astronomers boasts in the hundreds of thousands to 1 million+, in fact  Yet none appear interested in discussion or validation of the claims of astronomy. Look at the dancing around of the issue that the methods of triangulation in astronomy are invalid in this thread, for example.


Tom,

At some point you have to be able to accept something as true. Jupiter's moons is something that has been discussed, analyzed, photographed, looked at, and calculated for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. I've never been to the pyramids but enough people have been there, enough papers have been written about them, and there is enough photographic and video evidence that I believe they do exist.

Much like I believe that the pyramids do exist I also believe there is a planet in our solar system called Jupiter and Jupiter does have moons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Jupiter

Much like the Pythagorean theorem. If you could disprove it you would get fame, fortune, and accolades as the greatest mathematician who ever walked the earth. I'm guessing you are able to accept this as true because this theorem has been discussed, analyzed, photographed, looked at, and calculated for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.


I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

And how about Jupiter's discoid shape, Tom?  Do you agree or disagree with Sandokhan that Jupiter is discoid?

Bad Puppy,

This is a common Tom response. Someone could claim that a mile is 5280 feet in a mile and tom would ask for the worldwide mile study showing that, for all locations and altitudes on earth, a mile was ALWAYS 5280 feet.


Here's an example: Someone claims something like the sun passes over the the equator on the equinox and over the tropic of cancer/Capricorn during the solstice.  These events are common knowledge. They have been investigated, calculated for hundreds and hundreds of years. At locations on the equator and on the tropic lines hundreds of thousands of people document the path of the sun, there are photographs, pictures, videos, papers published etc. In spite of all of this:



Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?

Tom asks for a world wide sun observation project.


Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?

Tom asks for a documentation to every point on earth where the the actions of the sun were documented all throughout the year.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 01:35:45 AM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2019, 01:28:31 AM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

Quote
At some point you have to be able to accept something as true. Jupiter's moons is something that has been discussed, analyzed, photographed, looked at, and calculated for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.

We read the book and found that the methods were flawed. If you believe that the methods are accurate then defend the topic.

Quote
Much like the Pythagorean theorem. If you could disprove it you would get fame, fortune, and accolades as the greatest mathematician who ever walked the earth.

That is false. If you question, disprove, or criticize you are either mocked or ignored.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 01:34:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2019, 01:41:27 AM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

What's that supposed to mean?  It's up to the student to be proactive and ask questions.  Are you suggesting that they actively discourage questioning in astronomy classes?  Did you take an astronomy course and had your questions denied?  Or did you just not like the answers because they went against your beliefs?


And again, your view on Jupiter.....flat or not?  Simple question.  I'll start.  I think it's round.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

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Do you have any evidence of reality?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2019, 01:43:48 AM »

We read the book and found that the methods were flawed. If you believe that the methods are accurate then defend the topic.

What book? There are litereally hundreds and hundreds of books, websites, videos, photographs about the existence of Jupiter and its moons. How many books are there saying that Jupiter does not exist? Or that it does exist but does not have moons?


That is false. If you question, disprove, or criticize you are either mocked or ignored.


This depends on what you question or criticize.

Albert Einstein won fame and fortune for showing that light was composed of tiny particles call photons. Disproving the idea that light only functioned as a wave.

If you claim to disprove that 1 + 1 = 2 or claim to prove that the moon does not exist that's a totally different story.

I have never mocked you. I have never ignored you. I have, on many occasions, defended your viewpoints or pointed out that your concerns are valid and warrant consideration.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2019, 02:27:07 AM »

What book? There are litereally hundreds and hundreds of books, websites, videos, photographs about the existence of Jupiter and its moons. How many books are there saying that Jupiter does not exist? Or that it does exist but does not have moons?
You've either just outed yourself as a dishonest person arguing in bad faith (nobody has questioned the existence of Jovian satellites or of Jupiter) or have terrible reading comprehension. 

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2019, 02:28:34 AM »
Tom,

Have you taken a course on astronomy to know that questioning is discouraged or not acceptable? I want to know what class, who the professor was, and what college. Otherwise you are either making a baseless claim, or claim based upon someone's unverified opinion.

I am not an astronomer or have I taken astronomy. But, I did attend a world class engineering college that had it's own observatory. Questioning was highly encouraged in all of the clashes that I took. In fact, if no one asked questions, the professors would make a point of having the class ask questions so he/she knew the class understood the material.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2019, 02:28:47 AM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

What's that supposed to mean?  It's up to the student to be proactive and ask questions.  Are you suggesting that they actively discourage questioning in astronomy classes?  Did you take an astronomy course and had your questions denied?  Or did you just not like the answers because they went against your beliefs?


And again, your view on Jupiter.....flat or not?  Simple question.  I'll start.  I think it's round.
If astronomers and astronomy teachers have answers to the arguments posed by Hickson, where are they?  Most teachers just teach from the book, they probably wouldn't even have answers to questions that don't fit into that paradigm.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2019, 02:35:10 AM »
Why is this even an argument we need to consider? I've already shown that Hickson is dishonest by reporting the wrong numbers for Halley's diurnal method. And I confirmed with a childhood friend who is an exoplanetary scientist who stated that method is no longer used in calculating distances among astronomers who work as astronomers. It's used by amateurs (meaning the word as in not a paid job).
BobLawBlah.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2019, 06:58:55 AM »

What book? There are litereally hundreds and hundreds of books, websites, videos, photographs about the existence of Jupiter and its moons. How many books are there saying that Jupiter does not exist? Or that it does exist but does not have moons?
You've either just outed yourself as a dishonest person arguing in bad faith (nobody has questioned the existence of Jovian satellites or of Jupiter) or have terrible reading comprehension.

My level of honesty or reading comprehension has nothing to do with the facts presented in my post. Thanks for pointing out that i'm a dishonest person with terrible reading comprehension. Any other insults you want to throw at me in the meantime?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2019, 07:13:20 AM »
The number of amateur astronomers boasts in the hundreds of thousands to 1 million+, in fact  Yet none appear interested in discussion or validation of the claims of astronomy. Look at the dancing around of the issue that the methods of triangulation in astronomy are invalid in this thread, for example.


Why would there by any need to validate matters which have been repeatedly validated already?


You can't say "none" of these, when the only ones you've interacted with are the small subset who drop in here. Not a large enough sample size. 
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2019, 07:27:23 AM »
The continual validation and revalidation of astronomy. Astronomy is alleged to be a science. Yet you admit to astronomers being uninterested in  discussion, validation, and checks of basic knowledge.

Why would anyone need or want to do this? When hundreds, possibly thousands, have already (for instance) timed the rotation of Jupiter, over many years, and found it to be a constant, why would there be any reason to check it again with any frequency?

Do mathematicians periodically check that 2+2 still equals 4?
Do physicists check again and again the speed of sound (outwith high-school classes, for educational purposes).
Do physicians verify periodically that the purpose of the heart is to pump blood around the body, or is that taken as read?
etc
etc

   
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2019, 11:44:21 AM »
How do I know Jupiter is rotating?  Because I have seen it rotating through my (emphasis mine) telescopes.
Quote
Further, I doubt you are in possession of a 30K USD instrument of any form and fashion.
You are right I don't personally own that one...
At this point I believe it is quite clear to all clear minded and objective persons you have nothing of use to offer the forum.

You are dishonest concerning the most basic of claims and it is evident you simply mime others believing that to be personal knowledge.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2019, 11:55:42 AM »
A well known and time worn and tested method (still utilized by current surveyors) in assessing height of objects above the surface of the Earth is suddenly qualified as, "...quite the stretch..."?
Yes, much like when a few of us used your method of measuring the distance to the sun a few months back and all got radically different results. Based upon that I would hardly take your word for how to measure anything.
Lemme get this straight...

The experiment I offered is accepted by you and your lot of RE adherents as being VALID when it comes to measuring the altitude of the ISS FOR ANYONE ON THE SURFACE OF THE FLAT EARTH PLAIN, yet invalid when it comes to measuring the altitude of the Sun over the surface of the flat earth plain...

Seems you have more to deal with than simple math and I cannot help it if you and your lot are incapable of performing quite simple tasks and coming to an accurate conclusion.
It might perhaps be helpful for the OP to explain how the object known as Jupiter is related to the flat earth and its inhabitants.
That's the question for FET. If in FET all of the celestial bodies hover over the flat earth approximately 3000+ miles high, what is causing jupiter to rotate and what is causing its moons to rotate around it? RET has an explanation, we await FET's.
You have yet to even prove Jupiter is rotating.

Everyone is aware of RET claiming to have all the answers.

Everyone is also now aware that RET adherents typically cannot be trusted to provide truthful answers concerning even current, earthly reality.
How do you know Jupiter is rotating, for one, and how do you know it has moons orbiting around it?
Does the spot pac-man, magically disappearing on one side then at an interval magically appearing on the other? Hardly seems logical nor realistic.
Good question.

What does happen to pac-man or Ms. pac-man when they leave your visual range?

They rotate, right?
How do I know Jupiter is rotating?  Because I have seen it rotating through my telescopes.  I take it you don't have a telescope then otherwise you would be able to see the same thing I do.  I can send you images of the red spot moving across the disk if you wish.  Not a problem for me.  Images that I took by the way with my own equipment with no funding (sadly!) from NASA.
You see a red spot on the surface of any object and come to the conclusion that because you see the red spot moving the object must be moving?

I find this conclusion to be highly dubious.

I have observed Jupiter through a telescope in my astronomy class while in college. I wasn't able to ascertain any rotation.

Further, I doubt you are in possession of a 30K USD instrument of any form and fashion.

Just because you weren't able to ascertain any rotation is hardly an argument against the the many, many who have and do. Coupled with what has been proven to be your somewhat suspect observational skills, I find you assertion dubious at best.

Further, one does not have to "possess" a telescope, one may simply peer through one of any quality or price given access.
The claim was "...MY telescopes." Anyone who has the inability to state the true nature of reality here on Earth cannot be trusted to state the reality of things of a place where no one has been.

How is that for a no-nonsense observation.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:54:56 PM by totallackey »

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2019, 12:02:10 PM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

What's that supposed to mean?  It's up to the student to be proactive and ask questions.  Are you suggesting that they actively discourage questioning in astronomy classes?  Did you take an astronomy course and had your questions denied?  Or did you just not like the answers because they went against your beliefs?


And again, your view on Jupiter.....flat or not?  Simple question.  I'll start.  I think it's round.
Ha! Took an astronomy class in college. I asked how it was demonstrably correct that stars are formed of gas. Instead of receiving an answer from the professor, I was mocked..."How could you ask such a stupid question?"

Never mind scientists continue to debate the reality of stars, just settle for the status quo and keep giving us your money.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2019, 12:08:33 PM »
Anecdotal evidence. That just demonstrates you had a crappy experience and a crappy professor. 1 instance is not substantial evidence to say all professors act this way.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2019, 12:23:48 PM »
Anecdotal evidence.
Anecdotal, according to you ≠ real evidence?
That just demonstrates you had a crappy experience and a crappy professor. 1 instance is not substantial evidence to say all professors act this way.
Many more instances I could personally offer; however, I never claimed my experience was all encompassing or even possible for others.

Individual results could vary, as they say on TV.

Do you have a meaningful point?

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2019, 12:31:49 PM »
Carefully follow the thread. Tom made an assertion that questioning is actively discouraged.  You responded to the whole thread, referencing the entire thread about questioning being discouraged as a general practice as asserted by Tom. You did not clarify that you were responding to any specific part of Bad Puppy's response. Therefore, you are offering it up as evidence that questioning in general is discouraged. Stop shifting context. If you meant it just as a response to one single question, you should have highlighted that question alone. See, I am helping you here by clarifying what point you are trying to make, and simultaneously using the same tactic that FEers typically use by stating, oh that's not real evidence. So is it evidence? You said no. So, actually what's your point? If its not evidence, then it is pointless and does nothing to further the current debate in this topic on whether or not astronomy professors actively discourage questioning in general.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2019, 12:42:06 PM »
Carefully follow the thread. Tom made an assertion that questioning is actively discouraged.  You responded to the whole thread, referencing the entire thread about questioning being discouraged as a general practice as asserted by Tom. You did not clarify that you were responding to any specific part of Bad Puppy's response. Therefore, you are offering it up as evidence that questioning in general is discouraged. Stop shifting context. If you meant it just as a response to one single question, you should have highlighted that question alone. See, I am helping you here by clarifying what point you are trying to make, and simultaneously using the same tactic that FEers typically use by stating, oh that's not real evidence. So is it evidence? You said no. So, actually what's your point? If its not evidence, then it is pointless and does nothing to further the current debate in this topic on whether or not astronomy professors actively discourage questioning in general.
You are the one who shifted context.

Practice here is to include the post or specific line of posts to which one is specifically responding.

I did that.

Tom offered his experience and I offered my similar experience.

Neither Tom nor I claimed that experience we had would be all inclusive.

The disingenuous and dishonest characterization of these particular posts in response to my posts is glaring.

Offline JCM

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2019, 02:11:17 PM »
Totallackey and Tom you still have not answered the question posed by the OP.  Anyone with a decent telescope costing a hundred dollars or more can see Jupiter’s red spot moving to the edge then it disappears for four hours and some minutes and appears again on the other side of it.  The amount of time it is visible being near equal to the time it disappeared. 

It has objects orbiting it (four big ones easily seen from Earth), we call them moons, you call them whatever you want.  We also regularly see those objects cast shadows upon Jupiter.  We can also watch those moons orbit with a time frame, even disappearing behind Jupiter to come out the other side.  You both fail to address this as well.   

There are millions of people with telescopes.  It is a guarantee that all of them look at Jupiter and its four easily viewable moons.   https://www.cloudynights.com/index    Is one of many discussion forums about astrophotography with 800,000 plus member accounts.   I think it is safe to say that millions of people have seen it rotating and taken millions of photos of it.  Are you really telling us that images of Jupiter are questionable?  Is https://www.cloudynights.com/index and its 800,000 members all government shills posting fake pictures of the cosmos?   

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2019, 04:52:54 PM »
Totallackey and Tom you still have not answered the question posed by the OP.
Hard to answer a question based on supposition.
Anyone with a decent telescope costing a hundred dollars or more can see Jupiter’s red spot moving to the edge then it disappears for four hours and some minutes and appears again on the other side of it.  The amount of time it is visible being near equal to the time it disappeared.
As demonstrated earlier this is evidence a spot appears and disappears and not evidence of rotation. 
It has objects orbiting it (four big ones easily seen from Earth), we call them moons, you call them whatever you want.  We also regularly see those objects cast shadows upon Jupiter.  We can also watch those moons orbit with a time frame, even disappearing behind Jupiter to come out the other side.  You both fail to address this as well.
So, something disappears to where?

How do you know where they disappear to if you can no longer observe them?   
There are millions of people with telescopes.  It is a guarantee that all of them look at Jupiter and its four easily viewable moons.
Citation please.
://www.cloudynights.com/index    Is one of many discussion forums about astrophotography with 800,000 plus member accounts.   I think it is safe to say that millions of people have seen it rotating and taken millions of photos of it.  Are you really telling us that images of Jupiter are questionable?  Is https://www.cloudynights.com/index and its 800,000 members all government shills posting fake pictures of the cosmos?   
Oh, so only 800 thousand accounts = millions...

Who said anything about fake pictures or shills?