Offline JCM

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2019, 05:22:53 PM »
Totallackey and Tom you still have not answered the question posed by the OP.
Hard to answer a question based on supposition.
Anyone with a decent telescope costing a hundred dollars or more can see Jupiter’s red spot moving to the edge then it disappears for four hours and some minutes and appears again on the other side of it.  The amount of time it is visible being near equal to the time it disappeared.
As demonstrated earlier this is evidence a spot appears and disappears and not evidence of rotation. 
It has objects orbiting it (four big ones easily seen from Earth), we call them moons, you call them whatever you want.  We also regularly see those objects cast shadows upon Jupiter.  We can also watch those moons orbit with a time frame, even disappearing behind Jupiter to come out the other side.  You both fail to address this as well.
So, something disappears to where?

How do you know where they disappear to if you can no longer observe them?   
There are millions of people with telescopes.  It is a guarantee that all of them look at Jupiter and its four easily viewable moons.
Citation please.
://www.cloudynights.com/index    Is one of many discussion forums about astrophotography with 800,000 plus member accounts.   I think it is safe to say that millions of people have seen it rotating and taken millions of photos of it.  Are you really telling us that images of Jupiter are questionable?  Is https://www.cloudynights.com/index and its 800,000 members all government shills posting fake pictures of the cosmos?   
Oh, so only 800 thousand accounts = millions...

Who said anything about fake pictures or shills?

So, basically, you have nothing as usual to add.  You are seriously questioning if millions have looked through a telescope?

If you look at just cheap telescopes, Walmart alone sells well over 100,000 scopes a year.  (4200 Walmart stores, you do the math) Meade sells 12 million dollars a year worth of entry level beginner telescopes and they are a distant number 3 telescope producer in the U.S. alone... Average price of a Meade beginner scope of $100 puts them at over 100,000 scopes a year.

A little math (common sense) shows millions of people have telescopes. Meade, Celestron, Orion sell around 10,000 serious telescopes a year capable of resolving nebulae, wide angle views of planets, etc.  Those people have families, classrooms, etc who they share their serious hobby with I have no doubt.  Yes, millions of people have easily looked through a scope and personally seen Jupiter.


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2019, 05:42:01 PM »
We see phases of Jupiter, same as we do for the Moon, Venus and Mercury, but because it's further out than us, we see a limited range of them. This shows it to be spherical

Humankind has sent planetary probes to and past Jupiter and its Moons. These show various phases that we cannot see from Earth, and again shows it to be spherical

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, perhaps millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of astronomers have watched it and catalogued aspects of its appearance, behaviour, etc. None appear to have reached the conclusion it is anything other than spherical.

At some point you have to accumulate the balance of all the various evidence bases, and conclude that it all adds up to a spherical Jupiter, surely?
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Jimmy McGill

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2019, 06:26:53 PM »
Totallackey and Tom you still have not answered the question posed by the OP.
Hard to answer a question based on supposition.
Anyone with a decent telescope costing a hundred dollars or more can see Jupiter’s red spot moving to the edge then it disappears for four hours and some minutes and appears again on the other side of it.  The amount of time it is visible being near equal to the time it disappeared.
As demonstrated earlier this is evidence a spot appears and disappears and not evidence of rotation. 
It has objects orbiting it (four big ones easily seen from Earth), we call them moons, you call them whatever you want.  We also regularly see those objects cast shadows upon Jupiter.  We can also watch those moons orbit with a time frame, even disappearing behind Jupiter to come out the other side.  You both fail to address this as well.
So, something disappears to where?

How do you know where they disappear to if you can no longer observe them?   
There are millions of people with telescopes.  It is a guarantee that all of them look at Jupiter and its four easily viewable moons.
Citation please.
://www.cloudynights.com/index    Is one of many discussion forums about astrophotography with 800,000 plus member accounts.   I think it is safe to say that millions of people have seen it rotating and taken millions of photos of it.  Are you really telling us that images of Jupiter are questionable?  Is https://www.cloudynights.com/index and its 800,000 members all government shills posting fake pictures of the cosmos?   
Oh, so only 800 thousand accounts = millions...

Who said anything about fake pictures or shills?

Not sure how to do individual quotes like that, so I’ll just do the whole thing at once.

The OP wasn’t based off of supposition. Anyone can see the evidence, without relying on the evil NASA.

You can see a spot appear and disappear in a rhythymic pattern, exactly what we would expect to see from a sphere rotating on an axis. My OP was to ask you to explain these phenomena under your flat earth model, not for you to just say “nuh uh” to established scientific knowledge. Give your hypothesis as to why the spots and bands and moons seemingly rotate at a regular rate.

800 thousand accounts on an astronomy forum. How many of these accounts have families? How many people with telescopes aren’t a part of the forum? I personally have two telescopes and I’m not a member of this forum. Do you think all the flat earthers are members of this forum, or a small minority? This clearly indicates there are millions of people who have looked into the sky with telescopes.

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2019, 07:21:10 PM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

What's that supposed to mean?  It's up to the student to be proactive and ask questions.  Are you suggesting that they actively discourage questioning in astronomy classes?  Did you take an astronomy course and had your questions denied?  Or did you just not like the answers because they went against your beliefs?


And again, your view on Jupiter.....flat or not?  Simple question.  I'll start.  I think it's round.
Ha! Took an astronomy class in college. I asked how it was demonstrably correct that stars are formed of gas. Instead of receiving an answer from the professor, I was mocked..."How could you ask such a stupid question?"

Never mind scientists continue to debate the reality of stars, just settle for the status quo and keep giving us your money.

It just sounds like you had a bad professor, and that's unfortunate. I had astronomy in college too, and we also studied the composition of stars. But instead of telling us to accept it blindly, he said '...don't take my word for it. See for yourself'. Instead of barking the answers and telling us to fall in line, he taught us spectroscopy. We experimented with real elements and spectrographs. We split sunlight with prisms and saw the spectral lines.

Our only homework for the class was to come up with three new questions each day. Some questions were able to be answered thru experiments in class, but of course some weren't. But when we couldn't, it still wasn't just a blind-faith answer. It was explaining how the answers are derived, and giving examples of ways or places the experiments could actually be done (visit a radio telescope, commit to long term observations, etc.).

Again,  I feel sorry for anyone who had a professor like you did. I really do. You really miss out on the true splendor of all this.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2019, 07:34:35 PM »
Carefully follow the thread. Tom made an assertion that questioning is actively discouraged.  You responded to the whole thread, referencing the entire thread about questioning being discouraged as a general practice as asserted by Tom. You did not clarify that you were responding to any specific part of Bad Puppy's response. Therefore, you are offering it up as evidence that questioning in general is discouraged. Stop shifting context. If you meant it just as a response to one single question, you should have highlighted that question alone. See, I am helping you here by clarifying what point you are trying to make, and simultaneously using the same tactic that FEers typically use by stating, oh that's not real evidence. So is it evidence? You said no. So, actually what's your point? If its not evidence, then it is pointless and does nothing to further the current debate in this topic on whether or not astronomy professors actively discourage questioning in general.
You are the one who shifted context.

Practice here is to include the post or specific line of posts to which one is specifically responding.

I did that.

Tom offered his experience and I offered my similar experience.

Neither Tom nor I claimed that experience we had would be all inclusive.

The disingenuous and dishonest characterization of these particular posts in response to my posts is glaring.

Incorrect, Tom offered an assumption or claim that that is how astronomy classes work. He offered no studies with data and correlations. He didnt even offer a personal experience, aka anecdotal. I asked him for that evidence. He has not responded. You, however, offered your experience.

You are correct, anecdotal evidence is not valid. You can Google that. Or would you like me to provide mounds of sources that I will pull from Google to back that up?
BobLawBlah.

shootingstar

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2019, 09:47:45 PM »
Quote
I asked how it was demonstrably correct that stars are formed of gas


One way is to observe the spectrum of stars.  You can create the emission spectra of various gases quite easily in any science lab by using gas tubes which glow. You then see the emission lines in the spectroscope which correspond to each gas. Each gas has its own unique line pattern.  We can then see the same line patterns in the spectra of stars. For example A type stars show very strong hydrogen lines.  I will assume you know what I mean by A type stars?

In other words you can demonstrate emission lines from different gases very easily and then show how those same lines at exactly the same wavelengths appear as absorption lines in stellar spectra. So not only can you show that stars are made up of gases but you can also show which gases are present in different stars.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 10:09:18 PM by shootingstar »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2019, 10:01:19 PM »
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline stack

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2019, 10:04:44 PM »
I would imagine there's a fair amount of discussion and validation of the claims of astronomy in any university astronomy and astrophysics classroom.  Do you really think they're just a bunch of sheep that will take what's fed to them without any critical thinking?

Have you taken a course in astronomy in college? That's exactly how it works. Questioning is not encouraged.

What's that supposed to mean?  It's up to the student to be proactive and ask questions.  Are you suggesting that they actively discourage questioning in astronomy classes?  Did you take an astronomy course and had your questions denied?  Or did you just not like the answers because they went against your beliefs?


And again, your view on Jupiter.....flat or not?  Simple question.  I'll start.  I think it's round.
Ha! Took an astronomy class in college. I asked how it was demonstrably correct that stars are formed of gas. Instead of receiving an answer from the professor, I was mocked..."How could you ask such a stupid question?"

Never mind scientists continue to debate the reality of stars, just settle for the status quo and keep giving us your money.

Seems like you're complaining about the rather poor education you received. Instead of constantly relaying the result of the less than adequate schooling you are suffering from perhaps you might provide some evidence as to why Jupiter does not appear to rotate yet it does for most everyone else.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

shootingstar

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2019, 10:01:44 AM »
While I cannot comment on any particular college teacher when I don't know them, there is a way of replying to a question and most teachers that I have spoken to would say there is no such thing as a stupid question.

I guess it depends on the level of the course. If I was taking a very basic, no previous knowledge assumed astronomy course, then I would say that was actually a very good question because very few people outside of physics and astronomy actually do realise that the Sun is a star. The uniqueness of the Sun in its appearance and size just comes down to it being so much closer.

On the other hand I am currently taking a BSc(Hons) degree course in Astronomy so I guess if I was to ask the same question I think there would be some serious concerns expressed by the course tutors as to whether I was on the right course!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 03:55:04 PM by shootingstar »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Jupiter
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2019, 10:08:53 AM »
On the other hand I am currently taking a BSc(Hons) degree course in Astronomy so I guess if I was to ask the same question I think there would be some serious concerns expressed by the course tutors as to whether I was on the right course!
Could you do an experiment and ask anyway? seriously. Ask your astronomy teacher the exact question in a serious tone, see what he says back then explain you were only asking to compare reactions to other teachers. Tell us how he replied to the question. :) My assumption is that he will answer logically or lead you to a way of finding out for yourself the answer... But he could also be a jerk and mock you. Who knows!

shootingstar

Re: Jupiter
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2019, 10:43:26 AM »
I could ask the teacher who helped me with my solar astrophysics module.  The power source of stars was a relative unknown before the discovery of nuclear energy and that was less than a century ago.  Before that it was a bit of a mystery how stars could maintain the same energy output (luminosity) for so long.

We have a different course tutor for each module studied. Each one has a slightly different specialty. For example the solar astrophysics was designed specifically to go into the physics that makes the Sun 'work' as it does quite deeply. Another course then extends those same principles to show how differing masses of stars affects the evolutionary cycle. Mass is everything in stars.  There are more red dwarf stars than any other type.  That's because they are like the dying embers of a fire which seem to go on forever compared with a blue supergiant for example which lives hard and dies young.

I won't go into it anymore cos this is not the place but I will certainly get in touch with the module tutor and ask the same question.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 10:49:25 AM by shootingstar »