*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2019, 07:23:12 PM »
Phosphorous isn't used anymore. Drugs and painkillers are. Why would there be research in recent medical journals?

There is evidence in medical texts and journals from a time when it was used, that phosphorous was efficacious as medical treatment. And you have done nothing to debunk the claims of those doctors except to call them all liars and their studies lies.

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2019, 07:33:00 PM »
I literally never called them liars. I provided links to evidence saying that phosphorus does not treat anything. I also stated that the only links I could find when I literally googled "phosphorus medicine" were links to hack homeopathy websites.

I am beginning to see a pattern here in your worldview. "Everything new is a conspiracy." Medical literature at the time can be shown to be false many times over. Not intentionally false. But still, even drugs that exist today are based on research from earlier years. I can find no reference to phosphorus being used as a component in any drug from any time period except from before the late 1800s. Your telling me big pharma was active that long ago to discredit people? Your going on a long stretch there. Let me continue my research into this. You can dodge the argument all you want state that I am calling doctors liars and that big pharma is keeping the good doctors and their phosphorus down, but it's still dodging.
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2019, 07:58:03 PM »
I literally never called them liars.

Then what are you calling them? The doctors are claiming that the symptoms of the issue resolved very rapidly upon taking phosphorous, and there was a list of people who were cured, or at least benefited, from phosphorous, with descriptions.

Either the doctors are lying or phosphorous treatment is helpful. One or the other.

Quote
I am beginning to see a pattern here in your worldview. "Everything new is a conspiracy."

No. You are rejecting evidence-based medical studies in favor of an opinion on the internet. You apparently have no idea what evidence is and is not. In order to contradict those studies you need to provide a study of equal or greater thoroughness and sophistication to contradict it.

If you cannot provide such evidence, then you have none.

Why not just be honest and admit that you have no evidence at all except for someone's evidence-less opinion?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 03:51:50 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Online stack

  • *
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2019, 08:10:23 PM »
Apparently quality control might have gone down after Rowbotham’s death. Phosphorus may have been a cure all supplement, but, ironically, according to the British Medical Journal, Vol 2 from 1908, Birley’s elixir didn’t contain any though advertised under the banner of “The Wonders of Phosphorus:

"Analysis showed the presence of:
Sugar (partly as " invert sugar ") ... 74 parts
Tartaric acid ... ... ... ... 1.15
Phosphoric acid ... ... ... 0.07 part
Alcohol ... ... ... trace
Water to ... ... ... ... 100 fluid parts
No free phosphorus could be detected, but the odour
when the bottle was first opened suggested the presence of
a trace. From the presence of a trace of alcohol it appears
probable that an alcoholic solution of phosphorus had been
added, and the phosphoric acid had been formed by its
oxidation. If the phosphorus found were in the free state
each fluid drachm would contain about E grain. The
liquid was of a light straw colour, probably produced by
addition of a trace of colouring matter.
Estimated cost of ingredients for 3 fluid ounces,4d.”

https://books.google.com/books?id=aR4-AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA231&lpg=RA1-PA231&dq=British+Medical+Journal+dated+Oct.+24th+1908&source=bl&ots=QvpsCcXtmC&sig=R8SfWaW-lWFPnMEablu3UWcHOMM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii_6fE_-jfAhWrHzQIHbmSChAQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=birley&f=false
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2019, 08:11:47 PM »
It says right there in the list you quoted that it contains phosphorous. That author also admits that it smelled like phosphorous.

The product is described as "Compounds of Free Phosphorous". From your link:



True Free Phosphorous is unstable:

https://www.britannica.com/science/phosphorus-chemical-element

Quote
Phosphorus is a very widely distributed element—12th most abundant in Earth’s crust, to which it contributes about 0.10 weight percent. Its cosmic abundance is about one atom per 100 atoms of silicon, the standard. Its high chemical reactivity assures that it does not occur in the free state (except in a few meteorites).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 08:27:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2019, 08:31:27 PM »
No. Incorrect. The sources I have provided for evidence are not opinion pieces from some random person on the internet. They are from accredited colleges here in the US and the UK. They have clearly cited sources in their bibliography. One is literally an information source on the "micronutrient", phosphorus.
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 08:35:34 PM »
This is the link that you provided: https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/phosphorus

Where does it say that the authors treated people with the medical conditions that phosphorous has claimed to benefit, with failing results?

It does not say that at all. You have provided no evidence to contradict the evidence in the medical studies and texts shown.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 02:45:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 08:36:13 PM »
According to the National Institute of Health, there is no medicinal uses for phosphorus.

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1169

Go ahead. Say it. Big Pharma and government collusion.
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2019, 08:38:05 PM »
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2019, 08:38:58 PM »
According to the National Institute of Health, there is no medicinal uses for phosphorus.

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1169

Go ahead. Say it. Big Pharma and government collusion.

Doing a search on that page for "no medicinal uses," or "no medicinal," brings up zero results. It appears that you are just making things up.

Mayo Clinic does not list phosphorus as a treatment for any disease.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/phosphate-supplement-oral-route-parenteral-route/description/drg-20070193

It doesn't say that at all. Again, you are blatantly making things up.

Linking to random pages and telling us what you don't read doesn't help your case. You need to directly contradict the evidence given.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:48:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2019, 08:45:47 PM »
If it cured things, dont you think big pharma would be buying up all the phosphorus and selling it back to us at super high prices? The only place you can get phosphorus for human consumption is as a dietary supplement, or prescribed by a doctor if you have low levels of it, and that's usually given intravenously.
BobLawBlah.

*

Online stack

  • *
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2019, 08:49:08 PM »
It says right there in the list you quoted that it contains phosphorous. That author also admits that it smelled like phosphorous.

The product is described as "Compounds of Free Phosphorous". From your link:



True Free Phosphorous is unstable:

https://www.britannica.com/science/phosphorus-chemical-element

Quote
Phosphorus is a very widely distributed element—12th most abundant in Earth’s crust, to which it contributes about 0.10 weight percent. Its cosmic abundance is about one atom per 100 atoms of silicon, the standard. Its high chemical reactivity assures that it does not occur in the free state (except in a few meteorites).

I'm not sure I follow. Like you mentioned, the product is described as "Compounds of Free Phosphorous". And no free phosphorous was found. It does have a small amount of Phosphoric acid, but so do many sodas, like Coca Cola. Is it the Phosphoric acid that you are saying is the medicinal compound?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2019, 08:54:33 PM »
If it cured things, dont you think big pharma would be buying up all the phosphorus and selling it back to us at super high prices? The only place you can get phosphorus for human consumption is as a dietary supplement, or prescribed by a doctor if you have low levels of it, and that's usually given intravenously.

It is quite possible that it was decided at some high level by medical boards not to give it to people because of the poisonous effects when misused, in favor of some drug that is maybe somewhat less poisonous when misused. If people are popping them like painkillers it might be easy to misuse phosphorous.

Just because it's not used anymore doesn't mean that it never did anything for anyone. Our medicine used to be entirely herbal based. Yet doctors no longer prescribe herbs. This does not mean that the entire medical systems of some countries who still do use herbal medicine as their primary form of medicine is false. One can't argue that herbal medicine has never done anything for anyone, and neither can that be argued about phosphorous.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 09:14:56 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 08:59:13 PM »
Ok, now that last statement I can agree upon. Phew, took us a while to get there. That is more along the lines of what I was thinking, but i definitely was not focused on that while trying to provide counter arguments. Good discussion.
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 659
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2019, 09:02:40 PM »
Maybe more herbs for food and medicine will be used in the future. Do you believe it, or is it just a hoax?

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2299.html

Who will be the next Rowbotham in Space???  Will he be a quack, will it be a hoax?  Why do all the studies if there's no one in space anyway???
See page 40 regarding phosphorus.
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/human-adaptation-to-spaceflight-the-role-of-nutrition.pdf

« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 09:10:35 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline George Jetson

  • *
  • Posts: 101
  • Christopher Cane's Salsa Rocks My Mouth
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2019, 09:55:54 PM »
Why do all the studies if there's no one in space anyway???

In order to dupe people like yourself. 

Back to the topic, I think it's safe to say that Tom conclusively rebutted the false statements about Rowbotham.

*

Offline WellRoundedIndividual

  • *
  • Posts: 474
  • Proverbs 13:20 is extremely relevant today.
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2019, 09:58:37 PM »
Well, I am assuming you meant the original claims of Wolfson that Rowbotham was hoodwinking people. You cannot deny that he was actually selling phosphorus as Samuel Birley.
BobLawBlah.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 659
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2019, 10:14:40 PM »
Wow, I guess I was really duped then.  Me and a bunch more.  See the references at the end of the article.  There are over 800.  Reference #25 (to get back to the topic) was about the Calcium and phosphorus change of the Apollo 17 crew. 

I guess that all the doctors and scientists had to be provided with fake samples for them to study. Perhaps all the doctors and scientists were just in on the hoax and just wrote up a bunch of lies and called it 'research'. 

Is the Rowbotham story real, or is it just a big hoax?  Is Rowbotham the same person as Birley?  If you are proud of what you are doing why have different names? 
Who is a bigger hoaxster, Rowbotham or NASA?    You have to admit these are all interesting questions.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6083
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2019, 11:01:13 PM »
I'm not sure I follow. Like you mentioned, the product is described as "Compounds of Free Phosphorous". And no free phosphorous was found. It does have a small amount of Phosphoric acid, but so do many sodas, like Coca Cola. Is it the Phosphoric acid that you are saying is the medicinal compound?

I believe that the acid phosphate colas were originally advertised as medicinal drinks.





Looks a lot like what Rowbotham was advertising.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:17:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Online stack

  • *
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2019, 11:12:28 PM »
For sure. I saw some 2 year old thread here where Thork was talking about how Birley's elixir was actually the same recipe as Dr.Pepper and pre-dated it.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.