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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2019, 12:59:51 AM »
The author tells us that it took over 400 photos to get the one that he wanted:

"In all the images I took today - there were over 400 in total"

He goes on to tell us that the horizon was curved and the beams were straight in the remainder of the 400 photos that he does not show us:

"the curve of the horizon shows the same, while the straight edges stay straight."

However, of the couple of photos he shows us, the curvature of the beams are inconsistent:

Straight:



Then the author shows us a version with the beams tilted in comparison with the horizon. In this one we can see that there is clearly curvature on the beams:




I bet that if I took over 400 photos of distortion, I could eventually get what I wanted too.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:13:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2019, 01:46:38 AM »
Thanks Tom.

Also, whilst the horizon is straight, there will certainly be more heaving or movement of water towards the center than towards the shore. Indeed perhaps more waves.

When stretching these, as such amplifying the micro features of unevenness,  it may present such an illusion, particularly as Tom Bishop demonstrates, whence the distortion is quite rogue.

400 shots? Was he comparing waves?

Finally, the meeting of the two blues, sky and sea, when stretched in this way, may produce just enough morphing at the horizon to contribute to a misrepresentation, especially if there are much more prominent waves towards the center.

Indeed a dynamically living feature, such as a mass of moving water, is perhaps not the ideal subject to feature in this experiment.

Since computers only work from code and not real world senses, all these factors may create an artificial perspective.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:01:49 AM by Jeppspace »
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

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Offline QED

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2019, 02:38:05 AM »
The author tells us that it took over 400 photos to get the one that he wanted:

"In all the images I took today - there were over 400 in total"

He goes on to tell us that the horizon was curved and the beams were straight in the remainder of the 400 photos that he does not show us:

"the curve of the horizon shows the same, while the straight edges stay straight."

However, of the couple of photos he shows us, the curvature of the beams are inconsistent:

Straight:



Then the author shows us a version with the beams tilted in comparison with the horizon. In this one we can see that there is clearly curvature on the beams:




I bet that if I took over 400 photos of distortion, I could eventually get what I wanted too.

I agree with your skepticism 100%. A scientist shows all data, not the one data point that fits the sought result.

I encourage all forum users who live by coasts to report their photos. One does not need the beams, vertical scaling should show whether the curvature exists or not.

Is it possible to build a repository for such data on this cite?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Max_Almond

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2019, 05:46:33 AM »
Is there any way the process of vertically stretching it has distorted the image to produce artificial curvature?

No. The curve is evident even before vertically stretching - you can zoom in on the image and note that the pixel height is lower at the edges of the curve than in the centre. Stretching just makes it more obvious.

I think the point of the bars is that (especially given that barrel distortion becomes stronger towards the upper and lower limits of the image, as discussed above) they provide evidence that the curve of the horizon between the bars cannot be due to a distortion from the lens, or during processing.

Exactly. Well-centred photos of the horizon also show a pronounced curve, the bars are merely there to show the hyperskeptical that the curve isn't produced by barrel, pincushion, or moustache distortion.

The author tells us that it took over 400 photos to get the one that he wanted.

Nice attempt to lie and cherry pick, Tom. The 'author' actually tells us that he took over 400 photos and the curve was always the same.

I'm sure if you wanted to see all 400+ photos you could just ask him and he'd be happy to show you. He seems like the kind of guy to back up his experiments and assertions with evidence and reasonableness, unlike some. You might be able to learn a thing or two from him.

I do hope Tom's followers, if there are any, are picking up on this.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:44:32 PM by Max_Almond »

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2019, 12:12:55 PM »
Yes, this is literally what he says:

"In all the images I took today - there were over 400 in total - the curve of the horizon shows the same, while the straight edges stay straight.

The curve matches both the simulated curve from Walter Bislin's website and the expected pixel difference between the centre of the curve and the edge (~4).
Rory, Thursday at 4:01 PM #39"

So, Tom Bishop is a liar.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline QED

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2019, 02:11:52 PM »
I would like to see this independently verified/disputed by folks on here who live on coasts. It is an easy measurement to take, and this would permit independent sources to weigh in.

Whether you are a FEer or REer, this type of test is your honey pot. If you want to see the truth for yourself, that is.

I am quite curious what folks will find, and would be snapping photos right now if I wasn’t smack dab in the middle of the country.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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manicminer

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2019, 02:25:57 PM »
From the same article I note it says this...

Quote
It looks flat, and in fact the horizon IS geometrically flat. Since all the points on the ocean horizon are the same distance away from you, and the same distance below you, the horizon forms a flat circle with its center some distance below your feet.

And I do believe I have pointed this out before, for the very same reason that the photographer state.  So how does a flat horizon prove a flat Earth? 

The photographer also points out correctly that the curvature will only become apparent once you gain enough height.  You need to be able to see enough of the surface area of the Earth before the curve becomes directly apparent.  I made reference to that in the last paragraph of my opening post for this thread.   The photos shown in the posts above will never show any hint of curvature.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:31:31 PM by manicminer »

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2019, 04:06:42 PM »
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 04:20:49 PM by Jeppspace »
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

: Infinite ¥ : Szion = : Plane

Max_Almond

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2019, 07:55:31 PM »
The edges you need to consider are the ones above and below the horizon, and independently, since they're not connected.

Also, there's no reason to draw horizontal lines, but rather lines across the edges.

Here's another one, where the edges have been angled upwards in opposition to the curve:



It all seems quite straightforward to me.

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2019, 10:28:14 PM »
The author tells us that it took over 400 photos to get the one that he wanted:

"In all the images I took today - there were over 400 in total"

He goes on to tell us that the horizon was curved and the beams were straight in the remainder of the 400 photos that he does not show us:

"the curve of the horizon shows the same, while the straight edges stay straight."

However, of the couple of photos he shows us, the curvature of the beams are inconsistent:

Straight:

Then the author shows us a version with the beams tilted in comparison with the horizon. In this one we can see that there is clearly curvature on the beams:

I bet that if I took over 400 photos of distortion, I could eventually get what I wanted too.

I simply printed off the picture and put a ruler against the bar edges: There's no consistent curvature to them the way there is the horizon line. The bars tilt in some images, they're a bit blurry and have some unevenness true, but tilted, blurry or uneven edges do nothing to falsify the horizon's curve which the author claims is in all 400 images. Think about it: The telling thing is that the line of the bars, be it level, wavy, tilted or even if they had some apparent curve of their own, never follows the curve of the horizon - so whatever is causing the horizon curve isn't a result of the lens, the shape of the imaging surface, or a global distortion of the image in post production. It comes from outside the mechanism of the camera. Nor can it be distortion from the expansion, as the horizon and bars have undergone the exact same expansion and the horizon is clearly curved in a way, and to a degree, that the bars are clearly not. You could even stretch and distort the image so the horizon was flat, but the bars would tell on you because they would then be curved to the same definite degree the horizon actually is but the other way up (a 'smile' instead of a 'frown' if you see what I mean).It is also worth being clear: Both bars would need to be curved, following the horizon curve, along the exact same line for there to be evidence that the horizon curvature was from inside the camera.

You ask the author for all 400 images and go through them, you go ahead Tom, and with enough dedication and you might be able to find a handfull where blur or lighting puts an touch of apparent curve on the bars. But it's the difference between the curve of the horizon and the bars, the bars that in the original image are so incredibly close to the horizon, that shows the horizon curve is not a distortion from within the camera.

WRT QED's ask to see all 400 images, that is fair - but the author expecting people to actually ask for them, if they are that interested, is also fair: They are trying to communicate their finding, and including all 400 in the first instance it would make the piece pointlessly long and might discourage readers.  I worked in research, using optical microscope images. I would analyse hundreds, tabluate and graph my findings of where certain visible phenomena occured under my test conditions, but any paper I published could only include a few images, because the majority of readers are ready to extend at least a bit of trust and aren't so interested in every single image, and because people's time and attention is limited. But I had them (I may still do in fact) and was always happy to share them - even the whole folder - via a site like mailbigfile.com

It's also fair, obviously, to invite repetition of the experiment under comparable conditions. If I get the time, and if my camera with the decent resolution is still working (haven't used it for years) I'll definitely give this a go: As I said, as far as I get this the important thing is not that the bars are perfectly straight and level, but that they are as close to the horizon as possible and clearly don't show the same curve.
From the same article I note it says this...

Quote
It looks flat, and in fact the horizon IS geometrically flat. Since all the points on the ocean horizon are the same distance away from you, and the same distance below you, the horizon forms a flat circle with its center some distance below your feet.

And I do believe I have pointed this out before, for the very same reason that the photographer state.  So how does a flat horizon prove a flat Earth? 

The photographer also points out correctly that the curvature will only become apparent once you gain enough height.  You need to be able to see enough of the surface area of the Earth before the curve becomes directly apparent.  I made reference to that in the last paragraph of my opening post for this thread.   The photos shown in the posts above will never show any hint of curvature.

That is a fair point in principle, but any actual observer is at least slightly elevated, therefore looking slightly 'downhill' to the horizon, and therefore on a spherical surface should be able to pick up some curvature if they can examine it, in comparison to another line, closely enough. The greater the elevation the greater the curvature will be, so to repeat this well its still a good idea to get high as you can. Or do I misunderstand what you mean?

Jeppspace: What evidence is there in the image that the left and right edges are closer to the shore? And, as you point out, the sea is constantly changing - how could any swell or confluence of waves produce a curvature that stays centred on the middle of the shot, for 400 images?

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2019, 10:46:13 PM »
Quote from: Matthew7
Jeppspace: What evidence is there in the image that the left and right edges are closer to the shore? And, as you point out, the sea is constantly changing - how could any swell or confluence of waves produce a curvature that stays centred on the middle of the shot, for 400 images?

I am unaware of any, it was a presumption based on the fact the photographer himself was near the sea.  ;)

I was commenting on the fact that an ocean, or mass of dynamically changing water, tends to be more active towards its center. Hence the entertainment of Sailors' legendary stories at sea.

No, no, just musing on the science! Cheers.  ;D
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

: Infinite ¥ : Szion = : Plane

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2019, 10:59:33 PM »
That's what I don't get man - why would you presume that any part of the sea in the image was any closer than any other part without knowing the coastline? Or, put another way, without knowing the coastline and the exact pointing angle of the camera, how do you know the centre of the sea isn't on the left, or the right, or out of shot entirely? I just didn't see where the assumption came from. I see that you'd assume the centre of the sea is more active than the edges, although I don't think it's a uniform change like that as, depending on the weather, you can have boats becalmed mid pacific and thirty foot waves just off the pacific coast (just a very crude example)- but not why you'd assume the centre of the ocean was in line with the centre of shot.

Actually, am i right in thinking that a slight tilt of the camera might, if the image were stretched in the direction towards the top of shot, produce and offset hump on a spherical surface? But then the bars would have a definite common tilt in one direction or the other, added to or subtracted from any tilt they had individually.

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2019, 11:08:29 PM »
...depending on the weather, you can have boats becalmed mid pacific and thirty foot waves just off the pacific coast (just a very crude example)...

You worked me out without working me out. Yes, it was just a natural reaction to observations of how water is unpredictably non uniform, much like the similar observation you make here.

Sorry to confuse anybody, time for my bed now. Good night.
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

: Infinite ¥ : Szion = : Plane

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2019, 11:20:13 PM »
I'm a pedant for trying to get the details down man. I once had a job in industry working with industrial cutting lasers - so getting details just right, and working out where they kight go wrong, was a matter of keeping my eyesight and all my fingers. I hope I didn't offend.

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Offline QED

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2019, 12:52:32 AM »
There are statements that can be found which stipulate that unless the viewer is elevated (I.e., in a high altitude airplane) the supposed curvature would not be apparent. Yet this assumes the optical instrument used is the human eye.

It should absolutely be possible with a high resolution camera to observe whether there is curvature or not, provided the photo includes a large enough horizon, and the image is vertically scaled.

Many of you have in your hands the means of determining this answer. You do not need fancy interferometers or weather balloons.

All you need is a decent camera, a coastline, and a sunny day.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2019, 01:31:16 AM »
Well said QED.

Offline model 29

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2019, 03:12:46 AM »
I would like to see this independently verified/disputed by folks on here who live on coasts. It is an easy measurement to take, and this would permit independent sources to weigh in.

Whether you are a FEer or REer, this type of test is your honey pot. If you want to see the truth for yourself, that is.

I am quite curious what folks will find, and would be snapping photos right now if I wasn’t smack dab in the middle of the country.
I'll try again next time I go to the dunes down in Oregon.  I've been meaning to get up on a small mountain nearby and line up a camera along a water-level at the horizon.  Simply lining up nearby hills against a farther mountain shows the mountain to be too low for a flat Earth.  Noticed this in a video I did debunking some youtube fe'r by the name Antonio Subirats.

Max_Almond

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2019, 11:09:58 PM »
I've recently heard that the mysterious 'author' of these straight edges showing the curve of the horizon photos has posted a video on YouTube going through his collection and, I believe, including a link to a google drive folder containing all the raw images.

I can't find the link at the mo' but I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to locate it, for those who are wanting to scrutinise.

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Offline stack

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Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2019, 06:06:41 AM »
I've recently heard that the mysterious 'author' of these straight edges showing the curve of the horizon photos has posted a video on YouTube going through his collection and, I believe, including a link to a google drive folder containing all the raw images.

I can't find the link at the mo' but I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to locate it, for those who are wanting to scrutinise.

Did some cyber-sleuthing. Google drive folders with all of the images are linked from the vid description.

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Max_Almond

Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2019, 07:41:55 AM »