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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2018, 01:42:32 PM »
Edby, the experiment says nothing about using a device with a vaccum chamber in it, or dropping the object in a vaccum chamber. It says and depicts in the article that the device is a regular spring scale.

\

Can you show evidence the North Pole is an area of higher pressure? This air pressure map (at least during July) suggest this is not necessarily the case.

https://www.mapsofworld.com/world-maps/image/wether/wind-and-pressure-july-enlarge.jpg

Look up the Polar High.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 01:47:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2018, 01:46:47 PM »
Note particularly the bit in bold.
Quote
The majority of modern gravimeters use specially-designed metal or quartz zero-length springs to support the test mass. Zero-length springs do not follow Hooke's Law, instead they have a force proportional to their length. The special property of these springs is that the natural resonant period of oscillation of the spring-mass system can be made very long - approaching a thousand seconds. This detunes the test mass from most local vibration and mechanical noise, increasing the sensitivity and utility of the gravimeter. Quartz and metal springs are chosen for different reasons; quartz springs are less affected by magnetic and electric fields while metal springs have a much lower drift (elongation) with time. The test mass is sealed in an air-tight container so that tiny changes of barometric pressure from blowing wind and other weather do not change the buoyancy of the test mass in air.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2018, 01:48:04 PM »
Different areas have different air pressures and therefore different weights to their atmosphere. They took a scale calibrated for an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure and are measuring the difference seen on that scale.
I don't understand. That's what I would do. Or, calibrate it at the equator and take it to the north pole. Or calibrate it in Helsinki and take it to the equator and north pole.

If you recalibrate, between each location, you're nullifying the very point of the experiment.

Aren't you? Or am I completely lost here?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2018, 01:48:36 PM »
Note particularly the bit in bold.
Quote
The majority of modern gravimeters use specially-designed metal or quartz zero-length springs to support the test mass. Zero-length springs do not follow Hooke's Law, instead they have a force proportional to their length. The special property of these springs is that the natural resonant period of oscillation of the spring-mass system can be made very long - approaching a thousand seconds. This detunes the test mass from most local vibration and mechanical noise, increasing the sensitivity and utility of the gravimeter. Quartz and metal springs are chosen for different reasons; quartz springs are less affected by magnetic and electric fields while metal springs have a much lower drift (elongation) with time. The test mass is sealed in an air-tight container so that tiny changes of barometric pressure from blowing wind and other weather do not change the buoyancy of the test mass in air.

That wiki quote is not the procedure that is described in the link. It is depicting measuring the weight in an open environment with a regular spring scale.

Offline edby

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2018, 01:50:44 PM »
Different areas have different air pressures and therefore different weights to their atmosphere. They took a scale calibrated for an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure and are measuring the difference seen on that scale.
I don't understand. That's what I would do. Or, calibrate it at the equator and take it to the north pole. Or calibrate it in Helsinki and take it to the equator and north pole.

If you recalibrate, between each location, you're nullifying the very point of the experiment.

Aren't you? Or am I completely lost here?
I think Tom is still under the impression that the changes in the 'weight of air' cause a change in the measured weight.

Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2018, 01:55:23 PM »
Can you show evidence the North Pole is an area of higher pressure? This air pressure map (at least during July) suggest this is not necessarily the case.

https://www.mapsofworld.com/world-maps/image/wether/wind-and-pressure-july-enlarge.jpg

Look up the Polar High.
Average mean sea level pressure over the last 15 years both during the months of June, July, and August (top) and December, January, and February (bottom)



The Polar Highs occur *above* sea level. Usually on the order of km above sea level. They would not have an affect on an experiment performed on the ground.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2018, 02:06:42 PM »
That is incorrect:

https://www.pmfias.com/pressure-belts-pressure-systems-equatorial-low-sub-tropical-high-sub-polar-low-polar-high/

Quote
World Distribution of Sea Level Pressure

The atmosphere exerts a pressure of 1034 gm per square cm at sea level. This amount of pressure is exerted by the atmosphere at sea level on all animals, plants, rocks, etc.

Near the equator the sea level pressure is low and the area is known as equatorial low. Along 30° N and 30° S are found the high-pressure areas known as the subtropical highs. Further pole wards along 60° N and 60° S, the low-pressure belts are termed as the sub polar lows. Near the poles the pressure is high and it is known as the polar high.

and further down:

Quote
Polar High Pressure Belt

- The polar highs are small in area and extend around the poles.
- They lie around poles between 80 – 90° N and S latitudes.

Formation

- The air from sub-polar low pressure belts after saturation becomes dry. This dry air becomes cold while moving towards poles through upper troposphere.
- The cold air (heavy) on reaching poles subsides creating a high pressure belt at the surface of earth.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:11:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2018, 02:08:05 PM »
Different areas have different air pressures and therefore different weights to their atmosphere. They took a scale calibrated for an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure and are measuring the difference seen on that scale.
I don't understand. That's what I would do. Or, calibrate it at the equator and take it to the north pole. Or calibrate it in Helsinki and take it to the equator and north pole.

If you recalibrate, between each location, you're nullifying the very point of the experiment.

Aren't you? Or am I completely lost here?
I think Tom is still under the impression that the changes in the 'weight of air' cause a change in the measured weight.
I know, but if you recalibrate between measurements, how do you know? The point is to measure the change due to location. If you recalibrate at the new location, what are you recalibrating to? You're negating being able to measure what you suspect might cause measurement to change.

Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2018, 02:11:38 PM »
At present there is only a 10 hPa difference between the North Pole, and a low point on the equator. These 'Polar Highs' at any rate do not appear to create a very large difference. Could anyone do the math on the difference in pressure between 1015 hPa and 1005 hPa? Would it be enough to produce what is noted in the experiment link?

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/overlay=mean_sea_level_pressure/winkel3/loc=-7.931,88.751

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2018, 02:23:44 PM »
Of course the OP was about the subject of Clairaut's Theorem.  The idea was that you could show that the earth had a bit shorter distance to the center at the poles than at the equator.  The arguments about the air pressures and water pressures pretty much just cloud the main argument (which is a standard tactic).  At one time you might have needed to know the air pressure to use as a correction factor (because of buoyancy) but all that is irrelevant now.  You have a different weight at different latitudes and because of local anomalies due to the fact that the earth is not perfectly spherical or homogeneous throughout.  A large number of people from many countries  spend countless hours surveying and mapping these gravitational fields just like they do with a standard topographical map of the earths surface.  Of course FE doesn't do gravity or spherical so the whole argument is moot here anyway.   
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:25:21 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2018, 02:24:27 PM »
At present there is only a 10 hPa difference between the North Pole, and a low point on the equator. These 'Polar Highs' at any rate do not appear to create a very large difference. Could anyone do the math on the difference in pressure between 1015 hPa and 1005 hPa? Would it be enough to produce what is noted in the experiment link?

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/overlay=mean_sea_level_pressure/winkel3/loc=-7.931,88.751

Those weather map air pressure estimates are not based on direct measurement of the atmosphere. They do not have barometers spaced out every mile. Those numbers are loose model transformations, based on cloud, precipitation, and weather movement, as estimated by weather radar.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:41:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2018, 02:26:56 PM »
As a follow up to my last post, look at this:

http://physicstasks.eu/930/spring-scale-on-the-pole-and-on-the-equator

Quote
We calibrated a spring scale on the North Pole and then we moved the scale to the Equator.

Does the spring scale give the same readings as on the pole?

The experiment is about taking a spring scale that is calibrated at the North Pole and moving it to the Equator.

This is a different experiment than weighing a mass in two different areas with scales that have been calibrated for their local areas.
The conclusion is that the difference in weight is nothing to do with atmospheric pressure, but rather of difference in centrifugal force. This answers my question.

If this were the case, why do they specifically not calibrate the scale again at the equator or use a different scale that is calibrated? If the weight were truly heavier in one location, this difference should appear on calibrated scales.

The experiment is specifically about taking a scale calibrated for the North Pole to the Equator, and so the idea that this must be measuring weight difference of the mass and nothing more is fallacious.

Where are the controls in this experiment to show what is and is not being measured? Since you are presenting this as fact, you should be expected to defend these experiments.
Tom, the the scale being calibrated at the north pole and reference mass being measured are the controls in the experiment.  Changes in the weight of the reference mass at different locations is what is being measured.   

Another example of this type of experiment is the Kern Gnome experiment where a precision scale is calibrated in one location and then is used to weigh a ceramic garden gnome at various locations around the world.  The results were consistent with previously mapped gravitational variations.
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/kern-gnome-experiment/1191121
http://gnome-experiment.com/
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:29:13 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2018, 02:39:46 PM »
Tom, the the scale being calibrated at the north pole and reference mass being measured are the controls in the experiment.  Changes in the weight of the reference mass at different locations is what is being measured.   

Another example of this type of experiment is the Kern Gnome experiment where a precision scale is calibrated in one location and then a ceramic garden gnome is weighed at various locations around the world.  The results were consistent with previously mapped gravitational variations.
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/kern-gnome-experiment/1191121
http://gnome-experiment.com/

These are not controlled experiments. If the gnome device is being calibrated at the tropics, and then taken to the antarctic where the pressure is higher, and the atmosphere is heavier, we should expect a different result there.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2018, 02:54:27 PM »
I love the Gnome experiment.  If anything, the colder, high pressure, more dense air would actually make the Gnome weigh very slightly less.  That would actually be in favor of FE.  Please consult a text book on fluid mechanics to see just why this would be true. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2018, 02:55:24 PM »
Tom, the the scale being calibrated at the north pole and reference mass being measured are the controls in the experiment.  Changes in the weight of the reference mass at different locations is what is being measured.   

Another example of this type of experiment is the Kern Gnome experiment where a precision scale is calibrated in one location and then a ceramic garden gnome is weighed at various locations around the world.  The results were consistent with previously mapped gravitational variations.
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/kern-gnome-experiment/1191121
http://gnome-experiment.com/

These are not controlled experiments. If the gnome device is being calibrated at the tropics, and then taken to the antarctic where the pressure is higher, and the atmosphere is heavier, we should expect a different result there.
The way you composed that makes it sound as if results being different from what you expect means the experiment wasn’t controlled.

Offline edby

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2018, 03:02:04 PM »
Tom, the spring device will have a platform on which to place the object measured. The platform will have a top and a bottom surface. If the air flows freely, the force acting upwards on the bottom will be exactly equal to the force acting downwards at the top. Increase in atmospheric pressure will affect both equally, and will cancel out. If of course the air does not flow freely, and the pressure at the bottom is different from the top, this will affect the apparent weight. This will not normally happen.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2018, 03:22:03 PM »
Take a look at the Kern Precision Scales website.  They show the Gnome and the precision scale in a nice case.  These folks make scales for a living and you can be sure that the experiment left very little to chance.  They ship scales from scientist to scientist worldwide.  The whole idea was to show the differences of gravity due to the location on the earth.  My quick, back of the envelope, calculations of the differences of weight due to changes in atmospheric pressures and temperatures at the various places in the world would be very, very small.  Forget everything about the weather corrections.  Think the differences in weight (mass) due to the variations in the gravity on the earth.  Clairaut is probably rolling over in glee as the results come in.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline edby

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2018, 06:33:06 PM »
Think the differences in weight (mass) due to the variations in the gravity on the earth. 
I think you will find the mass doesn't change, although the weight does.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2018, 06:53:54 PM »
You are indeed 100% correct.  An object's mass (it's resistance to acceleration) wouldn't change (my bad).  It's weight, the force of attraction between 2 masses would change in this case.  If you believe in the universal law of gravitation you would expect an object of any mass to weigh a bit more at the earth's poles because they are just a bit closer to the center of the earth's mass.  That was the whole idea of the original Clairaut experiment to show that the earth's shape wasn't quite a perfect sphere.  Modern day equipment has been used to verify that theory countless times.   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Increased gravity at the poles?
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2018, 07:11:42 PM »
Tom, the spring device will have a platform on which to place the object measured. The platform will have a top and a bottom surface. If the air flows freely, the force acting upwards on the bottom will be exactly equal to the force acting downwards at the top. Increase in atmospheric pressure will affect both equally, and will cancel out. If of course the air does not flow freely, and the pressure at the bottom is different from the top, this will affect the apparent weight. This will not normally happen.

Neither the spring scale experiment or the gnome experiment are described as using a box enclosure or a vacuum sealed enclosure.