Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« on: October 19, 2018, 08:25:08 AM »
Now, let me start by saying that I believe in what my own eyes and understanding have led me to believe. I believe the Earth is a globe, BUT I've recently (mostly out of curiosity) wondering why there are people who believe the Earth is flat, and why they believe that. I'm not here to change your views on what you believe, I'm here because I'm curious as to WHY you believe what you believe. I don't believe the Earth is a globe because that what I've been taught in school, I believe the Earth is flat because of things I've observed with my own eyes, and things I've since learned on my own as an adult about our world. As stated I'm a firm believer that the earth is a globe, so assume I know nothing, and don't expect to sway me to your side, well if you all can actually answer my questions...

This first question is simple, how do sun sets and sun rises work on the Flat Earth. From what little knowledge I have about your theory is that the Sun rotates above the Flat Earth, forgive me if that not the case. But if that's how you propose the sun to work, how is it then that the sun rises over the horizon in the morning and set below the horizon in the evening. This is something I've observed with my own eyes every day of my life. A fact I've never even questioned, until I heard about the Flat Earth Theory.

Second Question: is kinda in lines with the first, I know folks from all over the world, chat with some of them on a daily basis, so how do time zones work in the Flat Earth?

Third Question: Gravity, the thing that pulls me down to the ground, the thing that makes the tides go in and out. Gravity is definitely something that wouldn't work with a Flat Earth, so what is your explanation for gravity. Why do I fall back to the ground when I jump? What makes the tides flow in and out if not Gravity? Gravity is something that can and has been tested. Something I've never really questioned its a forced I've observed countless times. Gravity is the reason I broke my wrist years ago falling down a hill.

Fourth Question: Well this one is something I've seen with my own eyes too, and pretty much proves the Earth has a curve to it. Why do ships sailing away across a large body of water disappear bottom first, rather than just get smaller and smaller until you just can't see them anymore? I myself have watched as boats gradually disappear over the horizon. I've seen YouTube Videos of Flat Earthers such as yourselves claiming something like being able to see Chicago's Skyline from Grand Mere State Park, yet I know this to be not true, as the same photo used in said video was taken from a news website clearly stating the picture was a mirage and that the city is not actually able to be seen. And since you all are apparently ready to disregard any photos of earth taken from space, I'm going to disregard any photos regarding the Flat Earth under the same premise of Photos can easily be faked in Photoshop.

Fifth Question: This one I doubt I'm going to get a satisfactory answer to... But why do you all think that NASA and all the other Space Agencies and governments are lying to you about the shape of the thing you're living on? How does it benefit them in any way? When they're accused of spending what would be probably hundreds of billions of dollars to keep this secret?

Well, those are my questions, I'm curious as to your answers. If I've some off as an asshole, I apologize, I am honestly curious to hear what you all have to say, even if we might never see eye to eye. Anyways is 4 AM and I'm tired so... laters.

Mysfit

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 12:43:14 PM »
Someone needs to check the wiki and FAQ. I'll give you some links.
Sunsets: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun
timezones work like they do on a round earth. The difference is that it's a disc with the sun orbiting above the north pole. I'll just get you a link to that.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun
There ain't no gravity for the flat theory, just universal acceleration: https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration
Sinking ship effect: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect
As for the conspiracy, that part does not make monetary sense, but there is a wiki for it: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy

Hope those helped, that wiki is a wonderful source of information, though it does clash with itself in some bits.

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 04:15:15 PM »
Someone needs to check the wiki and FAQ. I'll give you some links.
Sunsets: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun
timezones work like they do on a round earth. The difference is that it's a disc with the sun orbiting above the north pole. I'll just get you a link to that.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun
There ain't no gravity for the flat theory, just universal acceleration: https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration
Sinking ship effect: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect
As for the conspiracy, that part does not make monetary sense, but there is a wiki for it: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy

Hope those helped, that wiki is a wonderful source of information, though it does clash with itself in some bits.

Okay, first I'll say thank you for your reply, second... I'll say that I was hoping for something more than just some links to your wiki... Even so, I have some curious follow up questions, this time, please I'd rather not get another link to your wiki, as I'd like to get more personalized responses. Having a wiki is great and all, but Wiki is open source and written by you guys, and as said about you guys disregarding any pictures taken from space... I could go on to link a wiki that reveals the world as being donut shaped, but that doesn't prove the world is a giant donut. So while your wiki might be a wonderful source of "information", I could say the same thing about any website, it doesn't make that information any more or less true.

Follow up question One: This is regarding sun rise and sun set again, as while you have linked a page referencing the Law of Perspective, and while yes the references to a flock of birds or planes makes sense, but this still does not make sense for the sun. I say this because well, simply put clouds. Have you ever watched the sunset or sunrise on a day when there is clouds and the clouds get all beautiful and glowie? You'll note that on such days the light from the sun is hitting the bottoms of the clouds, this would be impossible if the sun were in fact above said clouds, as the light from the sun is always being emitted from the sun, which you've stated is always above the Flat Earth.

Question Two: Through what means does the sun manage to light only a finite area around it manage to maintain the correct time zones? The graphic displayed on your wiki alone would not result in the correct real world time zones, as it does not illuminate enough of the world, or would illuminate too much of the world. You're use of the word Orbit is also curious as in order for something to orbit something else there has to be a force keeping it in place. You say that the sun is like a light from a lighthouse that is constantly orbiting around the north pole, but what makes it orbit the north pole, through what means does this magical sun maintain the correct illumination to maintain the world's time zones.

Question three: The movement of the sun in the sky. In the first article you reversed me, it states that "Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west." But what force accounts for the June and December Solstice? On a Flat Earth your sun would have to change speeds and location in order to maintain 24 hour days and the correct movement of the sun through the solstices. On a Globe Earth its tilted axis is what would account for this movement, and also the Seasons.

Question Four: So you're saying that Universal "Acceleration" is the force that keeps me on the ground? Okay, I'm still skeptical of that idea, because well, what controls the tides? Are you going to link me to a page about how the tides are somehow controlled through a magnetic field?(One theory I heard from YouTube), because if you are, don't bother, as anyone who's ever used at refidgerator magnet can probably tell you, water isn't magnetic, thus a magnetic field would have no effect on it.

Well... I was going to make this a question... but you guys seem to not really understand how the Law of Perception works. The Sinking Ship Effect seems more like an attempt to explain something which you cannot explain, using the Law of Preception. The point at which parallel lines converge is known as the VANISHING point, do you know why its called the VANISHING point? I'll give you a slight hint... Its because things VANISH beyond that point, which means YOU CANNOT SEE ANYTHING BEYOND THAT POINT. Which means anything nearing the vanishing point of our vision will grow smaller until it well vanishes. But if the Vanishing point works as the Sinking Ship Effect would have me believe, the sails of a ship remain visible beyond the vanishing point of the hull? I'm not sure what to make of this. This use of the Law of Preception is laughable.

And I'm not even going to get into the last point on the Conspiracy.


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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 08:58:59 PM »
Follow up question One: This is regarding sun rise and sun set again, as while you have linked a page referencing the Law of Perspective, and while yes the references to a flock of birds or planes makes sense, but this still does not make sense for the sun. I say this because well, simply put clouds. Have you ever watched the sunset or sunrise on a day when there is clouds and the clouds get all beautiful and glowie? You'll note that on such days the light from the sun is hitting the bottoms of the clouds, this would be impossible if the sun were in fact above said clouds, as the light from the sun is always being emitted from the sun, which you've stated is always above the Flat Earth.

Here’s a discussion that touches on the cloud issue. It doesn’t appear there is an FET explanation for it (About halfway down page 1):

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5225.0

Looking at your other questions.


Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 11:09:16 PM »
Thank you for your reply, Stack. You see that link to an actual discussion, people conversing and trying to figure things out is much more of what I was looking for. That discussion is interesting and raises another couple of good questions, as well as calling into question of how Perspective is the cause of sun sets and sun rises. I believe Law of Perspective is being misrepresented in the FET, as while with something a plane flying over head, with perspective you'll always have to look up at something above you, just like you'll always have to look down at something on the ground. The FET Sun is above you, therefore with the Law of Perspective(from how I understand it, as I'm no expert), cannot cross the perspective line, it'll always appear above you. But that's not what I observe when I watch a sun set or sun rise. Then there is also the problem with if the sun is small and only 3000 miles away, when it appears over the horizon at sun rise it'll appear smaller than when its directly over head at Noon. 

The North and South Celestial poles also pose a rather large glaring hole into the FET, as pointed out later on in that discussion.

Having watched more than a handful of YouTube Videos on the subject, I know not a credible source, but I've seen this come up in most, if not all of them. They mention Airy's Failure as proof the world is stationary. But this is not the case, Airy's Failure proved that Ether didn't exist. Simply put we believed that because Light is a wave like sound, that it needed a medium to travel through, thus Ether was proposed, Airy's Failure proved that Ether did not exist which led to the Theory of Relativity. Airy's Failure had nothing to do with whether the Earth was moving or not. Even so you claim that Airy's Failure as a means to reject the Theory of Relativity.

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2018, 07:39:27 AM »
Thank you for your reply, Stack. You see that link to an actual discussion, people conversing and trying to figure things out is much more of what I was looking for. That discussion is interesting and raises another couple of good questions, as well as calling into question of how Perspective is the cause of sun sets and sun rises. I believe Law of Perspective is being misrepresented in the FET, as while with something a plane flying over head, with perspective you'll always have to look up at something above you, just like you'll always have to look down at something on the ground. The FET Sun is above you, therefore with the Law of Perspective(from how I understand it, as I'm no expert), cannot cross the perspective line, it'll always appear above you. But that's not what I observe when I watch a sun set or sun rise. Then there is also the problem with if the sun is small and only 3000 miles away, when it appears over the horizon at sun rise it'll appear smaller than when its directly over head at Noon. 

Agreed, I haven't seen a distinct and cogent rebuttal from FET as to how the supposed 'Law of Perspective' explains the sun below-lit clouds at sunrise or sunset. As it stands, I'm guessing, from an FET standpoint, the phenomena is unknown. Which you will find for many observable celestial and other occurrences. From the other thread, I think this is a great example; Mt. Ranier (14k ft) is significantly lower than the FET height of the sun - If the sun maintains it's altitude of 3000 miles throughout its path, how does it cast a shadow upward on to the clouds? Perhaps someone with a better understanding of FET will weigh in.



Having watched more than a handful of YouTube Videos on the subject, I know not a credible source, but I've seen this come up in most, if not all of them. They mention Airy's Failure as proof the world is stationary. But this is not the case, Airy's Failure proved that Ether didn't exist. Simply put we believed that because Light is a wave like sound, that it needed a medium to travel through, thus Ether was proposed, Airy's Failure proved that Ether did not exist which led to the Theory of Relativity. Airy's Failure had nothing to do with whether the Earth was moving or not. Even so you claim that Airy's Failure as a means to reject the Theory of Relativity.

This is a whole other topic of discussion that leads down a path of Michelson-Morley, Coriolis, Universal Acceleration, I could go on. Best to break this out into a separate thread.

Offline Radius

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 12:20:23 AM »
The explanation of perspective as the cause of the sunset is false. An object moving away from an observer appears to shrink in size as the distance increases, due to the perspective effect. However, this doesn't apply for objects like the sun and moon, as simple observation with your own eyes will prove. As the sun moves down toward the horizon it doesn't shrink in apparent size until it is a mere point of light, and then disappear. You can actually see half of the sun disk above the horizon when half is already below, and that half disk is the same size as it appeared to be at noon time.

The perspective shrinking effect only appears when the distance to the object changes significantly over time. An airplane appears to shrink as it flies from overhead at an altitude of a few thousand feet, to the point where you can no longer make out the plane, only its contrail, when it is 10 miles or so away. The sun and moon move across the entire sky without changing in apparent size, and so they must be always at the same distance.

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 04:39:57 AM »
Oh so you're deleting my posts now, are you? Proves my point, this is a waste of effort and time.

Offline edby

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 10:04:40 AM »
The explanation of perspective as the cause of the sunset is false. An object moving away from an observer appears to shrink in size as the distance increases, due to the perspective effect. However, this doesn't apply for objects like the sun and moon, as simple observation with your own eyes will prove. As the sun moves down toward the horizon it doesn't shrink in apparent size until it is a mere point of light, and then disappear. You can actually see half of the sun disk above the horizon when half is already below, and that half disk is the same size as it appeared to be at noon time.

The perspective shrinking effect only appears when the distance to the object changes significantly over time. An airplane appears to shrink as it flies from overhead at an altitude of a few thousand feet, to the point where you can no longer make out the plane, only its contrail, when it is 10 miles or so away. The sun and moon move across the entire sky without changing in apparent size, and so they must be always at the same distance.

The FE theory, as I understand it, is that there is a light-bending effect that precisely, and coincidentally, offsets the diminishing effect of perspective.

Offline JCM

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 01:42:22 PM »
Oh so you're deleting my posts now, are you? Proves my point, this is a waste of effort and time.

This forum in particular aggressively deletes and manages postings and it’s members.  Even well mannered constructive conversations I have seen manipulated and controlled.  I have few posts, but have read this forum for a long time.  People generally aren’t really interested in having a conversation or learning anything in these forums.   

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2018, 01:54:55 PM »
Oh so you're deleting my posts now, are you? Proves my point, this is a waste of effort and time.

This forum in particular aggressively deletes and manages postings and it’s members.  Even well mannered constructive conversations I have seen manipulated and controlled.  I have few posts, but have read this forum for a long time.  People generally aren’t really interested in having a conversation or learning anything in these forums.   
Au contraire, we never delete posts. Posts which do not adhere to the rules are moved to one of the garbage dump forums (Complete Nonsense and Angry Ranting) where they can still be seen by anyone with an account.

Indeed, it is not difficult to locate the original post, together with an explanation as to why it's been moved. A "you suck and also I'm leaving" post has no place in a debate thread - I hope this much is obvious.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Pinky

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2018, 12:18:40 PM »
Someone needs to check the wiki and FAQ. I'll give you some links.
Sunsets: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun
This explanation only works if the Sun has a diameter of zero.

Quote
timezones work like they do on a round earth. The difference is that it's a disc with the sun orbiting above the north pole. I'll just get you a link to that.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun
This explanation only works if you
a) put a lampshade on the Sun
b) ignore that you can actually see during sunrise/sunset that the sun-disc is partially obscured.

Quote
There ain't no gravity for the flat theory, just universal acceleration: https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration
If Universal Acceleration were real, the starlight coming from directly above would be blueshifted outside of the visible range to ultraviolet and beyond.

Quote
Sinking ship effect: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect
There is a shit-ton of actual photographies that disprove these wild claims.

Quote
As for the conspiracy, that part does not make monetary sense, but there is a wiki for it: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
And this ignores that in order for conspiracy to work, everybody from NASA to ESA to the Russians to China to India to meteorologists to cartographers to oceanographers to sailors to pilots to artillery-men must be in on it, because all of these have first-hand evidence of the shape of Earth.
And we would have to beleive that an international conspiracy of millions of people can stay secret, with nobody ever infiltrating them and nobody ever coming forward and nobody ever leaking about it.





Huh, that was easy.

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2018, 12:43:44 PM »
...claiming something like being able to see Chicago's Skyline from Grand Mere State Park, yet I know this to be not true, as the same photo used in said video was taken from a news website clearly stating the picture was a mirage and that the city is not actually able to be seen...
I am only addressing this portion of your post since I happen to live in this area and I can truthfully testify you can see Chicago from the park.
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Online iamcpc

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 10:21:25 PM »
Follow up question One: This is regarding sun rise and sun set again, as while you have linked a page referencing the Law of Perspective, and while yes the references to a flock of birds or planes makes sense, but this still does not make sense for the sun. I say this because well, simply put clouds. Have you ever watched the sunset or sunrise on a day when there is clouds and the clouds get all beautiful and glowie? You'll note that on such days the light from the sun is hitting the bottoms of the clouds, this would be impossible if the sun were in fact above said clouds, as the light from the sun is always being emitted from the sun, which you've stated is always above the Flat Earth.

The answer to this is simple. This is what is known as atmospheric refraction. Just because you perceive the sun light to be below the clouds simply means that your brain, did it's best to create some sort of image, based on the assumption that light travels in a straight line. The truth is that, depending on many different conditions, light can curve which creates things like mirages or refraction effects.


Question Two: Through what means does the sun manage to light only a finite area around it manage to maintain the correct time zones? The graphic displayed on your wiki alone would not result in the correct real world time zones, as it does not illuminate enough of the world, or would illuminate too much of the world. You're use of the word Orbit is also curious as in order for something to orbit something else there has to be a force keeping it in place. You say that the sun is like a light from a lighthouse that is constantly orbiting around the north pole, but what makes it orbit the north pole, through what means does this magical sun maintain the correct illumination to maintain the world's time zones.

The answer to this question will vary greatly person to person based on the flat earth model they believe in. The image you have seen only represents one version of one flat earth model.
Here is another model demonstrating how the atmosphere, dome, firmament and other things can create a day/night cycle on a flat surface. This is a totally different flat earth model one which likely includes a dome or firmament.





Here is another one



The flat earth model I can best relate to is an infinite repeating plane flat earth model as shown below which shows the sunrise and sunset direction and time for anywhere on earth.
http://suncalc.net/

Question three: The movement of the sun in the sky. In the first article you reversed me, it states that "Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west." But what force accounts for the June and December Solstice? On a Flat Earth your sun would have to change speeds and location in order to maintain 24 hour days and the correct movement of the sun through the solstices. On a Globe Earth its tilted axis is what would account for this movement, and also the Seasons.

Again this depends on your flat earth model. There could be a claim that the flat earth model in which the north pole is in the center is incorrect or inaccurate. There could be a claim that the sun does speed up/slow down with it's movement between the tropic lines.

There also have been claims that the sun does not move between the tropic lines in the seasons or that it only appears to based on seasonal atmospheric conditions.

Or with my model the sun does not move in the same way that it does in the way that you are discussing.



Question Four: So you're saying that Universal "Acceleration" is the force that keeps me on the ground? Okay, I'm still skeptical of that idea, because well, what controls the tides? Are you going to link me to a page about how the tides are somehow controlled through a magnetic field?(One theory I heard from YouTube), because if you are, don't bother, as anyone who's ever used at refidgerator magnet can probably tell you, water isn't magnetic, thus a magnetic field would have no effect on it.

Universal acceleration is only part of some of the flat earth models. I forgot what the exact phrase was but there was another view of gravity in which gravity accounted for things like the tides but didn't affect the shape of the earth.

There are also flat earth models in which gravity is real and does exist in the newton/Einstein way.

Well... I was going to make this a question... but you guys seem to not really understand how the Law of Perception works. The Sinking Ship Effect seems more like an attempt to explain something which you cannot explain, using the Law of Preception. The point at which parallel lines converge is known as the VANISHING point, do you know why its called the VANISHING point? I'll give you a slight hint... Its because things VANISH beyond that point, which means YOU CANNOT SEE ANYTHING BEYOND THAT POINT. Which means anything nearing the vanishing point of our vision will grow smaller until it well vanishes. But if the Vanishing point works as the Sinking Ship Effect would have me believe, the sails of a ship remain visible beyond the vanishing point of the hull? I'm not sure what to make of this. This use of the Law of Preception is laughable.

There are many posts which suggest that the sinking ship effect might be more optics, refraction, and chaotic atmospheric conditions instead of perception.


Notice in the video how, over the course of 15 minutes, the "sinking ship effect" has obscured entire buildings? 100% optics, refraction, and chaotic atmospheric conditions 0% curve.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 10:24:29 PM by iamcpc »

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 10:45:37 PM »
Follow up question One: This is regarding sun rise and sun set again, as while you have linked a page referencing the Law of Perspective, and while yes the references to a flock of birds or planes makes sense, but this still does not make sense for the sun. I say this because well, simply put clouds. Have you ever watched the sunset or sunrise on a day when there is clouds and the clouds get all beautiful and glowie? You'll note that on such days the light from the sun is hitting the bottoms of the clouds, this would be impossible if the sun were in fact above said clouds, as the light from the sun is always being emitted from the sun, which you've stated is always above the Flat Earth.

The answer to this is simple. This is what is known as atmospheric refraction. Just because you perceive the sun light to be below the clouds simply means that your brain, did it's best to create some sort of image, based on the assumption that light travels in a straight line. The truth is that, depending on many different conditions, light can curve which creates things like mirages or refraction effects.

This would have to presume that atmospheric refraction accounts for how a sun 3000 miles high can appear to be setting below the clouds and casting rays upward to create the shadow around 15000 feet high off the bottom of the clouds. That's about 2997 miles of refraction.

Offline JCM

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 06:31:17 PM »

There are many posts which suggest that the sinking ship effect might be more optics, refraction, and chaotic atmospheric conditions instead of perception.


Notice in the video how, over the course of 15 minutes, the "sinking ship effect" has obscured entire buildings? 100% optics, refraction, and chaotic atmospheric conditions 0% curve.



How does a video showing refraction at points in the day in front of the horizon over the course of a day disprove curvature exactly?  This effect is also only under very specific conditions.  A supertanker video taken from the edge of the water in calm seas going over the curvature CANNOT be brought back “into focus” to its original water line at any time of the day or week or year with or without neat conditions which can give a mirage or bend light a little. 

Find me a video of a supertanker taken from the edge of a beach next to the water(not on a hill made of a small ship too small to resolve with our eyes), edge of any beach, being pulled back into full view after it moves beyond the horizon line.  This should be easy to find. Show me. 

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2018, 12:59:02 AM »
do u guys even physics

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2018, 03:28:13 AM »
do u guys even physics

Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.
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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2018, 06:18:11 PM »

How does a video showing refraction at points in the day in front of the horizon over the course of a day disprove curvature exactly?  This effect is also only under very specific conditions.  A supertanker video taken from the edge of the water in calm seas going over the curvature CANNOT be brought back “into focus” to its original water line at any time of the day or week or year with or without neat conditions which can give a mirage or bend light a little. 

Find me a video of a supertanker taken from the edge of a beach next to the water(not on a hill made of a small ship too small to resolve with our eyes), edge of any beach, being pulled back into full view after it moves beyond the horizon line.  This should be easy to find. Show me.

It does not disprove curvature at all. It proves that, under certain situations, a "sinking ship" effect can be cause by something other than the curve of the earth.

In the video I have just shown you a super tanker which was docked on the sore of the beach in the video would have disappeared and reappeared behind a "water line" without moving an inch. (much like the way that the beach disappears behind the water without moving an inch)

Both flat earthers and round earthers have acknowledged that these optical/environmental effects are real and they do have an impact on measurements, observations, and perceptions that we make on a day to day basis.

The round earth belief is that optics/atmosphere/environmental conditions AND curve both account for the sinking ship effect.
The flat earth belief is that optics/atmosphere/environmental conditions are the primary cause of the sinking ship effect
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 07:54:27 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2018, 06:37:29 PM »
...being able to see Chicago's Skyline from Grand Mere State Park, yet I know this to be not true, as the same photo used in said video was taken from a news website clearly stating the picture was a mirage and that the city is not actually able to be seen.
Point of order: the visual effect that allowed the Chicago skyline to be seen from that location was not "mirage." The meteorologist made a mistake. The atmosphere can also experience conditions that produce "looming." That's not mirage. Looming is due to more extreme refraction causing light to more closely follow the curvature of the earth than usual. This has the visual effect of "flattening" the earth somewhat. Not flat; but as if the earth's radius had swelled and the surface of the earth was a little less convex. That allows one to see further than usual.

But it's not distorting or inverting the way a mirage works (of which there are a couple of types).

"Towering" is another term similar to "looming," but it results from a difference in refractive gradients according to elevation such that something visually experiencing towering will appear stretched. Looming and towering can go together, but not always.

Now, whether it's "mirage" or "towering" or "looming", seeing it doesn't make it an illusion. You're actually seeing something real when you see objects that are beyond the astronomical globe horizon due to one of these refraction events. In that Chicago skyline photo, you actually are seeing the Chicago skyline. Saying it's a mirage, even if that's not the correct term, doesn't mean it's not real.

I think this misconception comes from "mirage" being associated with the mis-identification of the water on the surface of the desert surface or hot asphalt. The water, of course, isn't really there. What a mirage is showing is an inverted image of sky, often accompanied with a shimmer due to the radiant heat moving the air mass. But this doesn't equate to images that loom or tower above the horizon when they don't normally do so. Even Fata Morgana, which gets its name from the illusion of distant towers, is projection of real things.  When I finally got a glimpse of Catalina Island from San Diego recently, it was distorted with weird towering plateaus and "sky windows." Those were due to Fata Morgana, or complex superior mirage. But the island was really there. It was just distorted.

Just wanted to clear that up. Back to the thread.

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Added note: I don't claim to be an expert on this topic. I'm well-versed in anomalous electromagnetic propagation and effects on radar and communications, but I until getting into the topic of flat earth investigation I'd never delved too deeply into the effects on E-M at the wavelength of light and on visual/optical systems.

I owe a lot to the set of Web pages posted by Prof. Andrew Young of San Diego State University's Department of Astronomy. Those pages deal mostly with the "green flash" refractive phenomenon but dedicate much to the effects of the atmosphere on light.   
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 09:24:15 PM by Bobby Shafto »