Rama Set

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #300 on: June 03, 2014, 03:03:03 AM »
There are many good rebuttals to Anselm. In what way does the ontological prove god exists beyond a trick of language?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #301 on: June 03, 2014, 03:08:52 AM »
Irush, that is an interesting analogy. The difference lies here. A bullet has no choice but to go where fired. That would be Double Predestination, very Calvinist of you. Arminians always believed men had choice. I won't deny the tension. God knows all, yet man is free. I ponder it too. I accept it as a mystery of faith. I try to understand. But like you, I admit to not entirely getting it.

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #302 on: June 03, 2014, 03:17:26 AM »
By your logic, Person 1's God and Person's 3 God both do not exist as they cannot exist together but the argument shows they both exist.  Besides, we are not speaking of the argument to multiple people, as this argument is made by a singular person.  If one perfect being can exist, does this mean 2 perfect beings cannot exist?  I don't believe that equal perfection is impossible, therefore it isn't by the ontological argument.  If multiple perfect beings is not impossible, and at least one perfect being exists, then multiple exist.  Therefore the council of gods is back on the table as existing and your monotheistic religion is blasphemous and shall be dealt with by the council.

Also, to alter Rushy's argument a touch to maybe make you convinced, if you sell a handgun to a known gang member, you had the ability to prevent a person from dying (knowledge of said gang member and likelihood it would be used against another person) and yet failed to prevent it (sold the gun instead of not selling it).  You are ultimately responsible for the bystander hit by the stray bullet of the sideways-gun holding thug due to your negligence in gun selling (God "sold" life to man knowing what he would do with it).

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #303 on: June 03, 2014, 03:18:51 AM »
Well, Rama, its far less of a trick of language than the recent question I was asked by Vaux: Can God create a rock to heavy for God to lift? The question is a solipsism & a logical impossibility. Its like calling a man a married bachelor. Both the phrase & the question are language tricks w/ empty connotation. In comparison, the Ontological Argument is quite easy to handle.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #304 on: June 03, 2014, 03:26:22 AM »
Ah, there weren't 3 people in the argument. 3 premises, but only 2 persons, A & B. @ first, I mistakenly said A & 2. I have edited that. There are 2 interlocutors, Persons A & B; 3 Premises; & 1 Conclusion.

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #305 on: June 03, 2014, 03:35:06 AM »
Either way, the first argument is that no greater being exists.  Argument 2 is that there is a being which exists that is equal to the first argument's being.  Equal is not greater, thus this does not invalidate the first argument, thus multiple equally great beings which have no superior.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #306 on: June 03, 2014, 03:49:34 AM »
I see your point, Duck. But the 1st interlocutor can always upstage the 2nd. Its like when we were boys (now how's that for assumptions, expecting you to be a man; you could be a woman for all I know), & we were upstaging each other saying 4th Grade things like 'F--k you 100 times!' 'Oh yeah? F--k you 1000 times!' The # quickly rose to 'F--k you infinity times!' & then some smart-ass would come up w/ the # 'infinity & one'. The point is, Anselm's argument always works. The minute you say your being is equal to mine, mine gets a promotion. Sucks to be you, don't it? *GRIN* That last was a joke. I think you see my point.

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #307 on: June 03, 2014, 04:07:28 AM »
So you don't agree that equal is not greater?  Or do you make the assumption that if something can't be greater than it can't be equal as well? The argument clearly only refers to greater, not equal to, thus a being can be equal to one which there is no greater.  It's like you're playground argument with "fuck you" and the second kid says "fuck you" in retort,  there is no escalation.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #308 on: June 03, 2014, 04:38:53 AM »
Well, yes. 2 things can be equal in theory. But tell me honestly, do you think that a Divine Being who  calls himself Jealous in Exodus is going to stand for another Being to be equal to him? 'I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me... for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third & fourth generation of them that hate Me, & showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me & keep My commandments.' (Ex. 20:2-3,5b-6). Now, Duck, just between you & me, man to man, does that sound like a Deity that will tolerate equals? It seems to me that if such an equal being existed, there would be war in heaven, no? Christians actually teach something like that, only w/ a rebellious angel, Lucifer/Satan. As a Jew, I can't conceive of a universe w/ 2 equal gods. 1 would always end up kicking the other's ass.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 06:21:11 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline beardo

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Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #309 on: June 03, 2014, 06:00:38 AM »
Why did God, in all his greatness, need to use something as crude as a flood to wipe out all life? He's God, he could just have made it all disappear just like that, at will.
The Mastery.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #310 on: June 03, 2014, 06:34:57 AM »
Well, Beardo, there's probably as many valid answers to that question as there are stars in the Heavens. The one I'm partial to is that there is a flood narrative in about 300 major cultures worldwide from the Aztec to the Zulu. I personally believe that Noah & his Ark were one of several. Polygenesis would help explain some things. The Biblical text says that Noah's sons fathered people groups: Shem the Semites, Ham the Hamites (black people), & Japheth the European people. So, where did the Japanese come from? Or Australian Aboriginals? Or etc? If there was more than one Ark, that might help explain all this. The Bible never claimed to be world history. @ best, it's history of the Levant & surrounding areas. Of course it talks about Noah's Ark rather than one near Japan.

Rama Set

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #311 on: June 03, 2014, 06:39:51 AM »
You totally did not address Beardo's post.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #312 on: June 03, 2014, 06:49:22 AM »
As to why the flood & not fire, or disappearance, or what? I don't know. Maybe so he could offer his rainbow of promise @ the end? Your guess is as good as mine. Gotta go. Will be back tomorrow.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #313 on: June 03, 2014, 06:53:07 AM »
Would have saved Noah a buttload of work if God just hit delete on those he deemed wicked.
The Mastery.

Ghost of V

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #314 on: June 03, 2014, 07:00:08 AM »
Yaakov, you are trolling people here big time. I wonder what you really think about the subject matter, because that would actually be interesting.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #315 on: June 03, 2014, 01:12:05 PM »
O, that's mature, VAUX. You can't win an argument, so you resort to ad hominem. Asshole.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:04:04 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Eddy Baby

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #316 on: June 03, 2014, 03:54:38 PM »
How is that an ad hominem, may I ask?

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #317 on: June 03, 2014, 03:59:27 PM »
How is that an ad hominem, may I ask?

Accusing someone of trollering is considered an insult in some cultures.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Eddy Baby

Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #318 on: June 03, 2014, 04:05:56 PM »
Yeah but insult =/= ad hominem. He's saying 'I don't take your argument seriously because I don't believe your argument is serious,' not 'I don't take your argument seriously because you're silly/gay/whatever.'

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Re: Atheism vs. religion
« Reply #319 on: June 03, 2014, 04:09:54 PM »
Vauxhall is dismissing an argument based on an irrelevant perceived character trait. Even if the jew were trolling (although I'm not sure why anybody would think so), that would be irrelevant to the substance of his argument.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.