[Rushy]

What was the purpose of the Ark of the Covenant? It was essentially a large box designed to hold the X Commandments, Aaron's rod that budded, and a few other things as as well. It was also a large super-conductor, shittim wood plated inside and out with purest gold. The spirit of God spoke to the Israelites from the Mercy Seat that was between the Cherubim on the cover ofArk. When one of the Priests attempted to touch the Ark to steady it, he was promptly killed by the power of God exerting itself through the Ark.

If it was a super conductor it was made out of neither gold nor wood.

Why do I think that God all to often, allowed his power to be displayed in destructive ways? I suspect it was because humans of the time would have understood little else. To strike the fear of God into them, that was what was needed. Also, a national god dedicated to the House of Israel was also needed as well. You will find that if you get to the later parts of the "Old Testament" you will notice that the later prophets begin to speak of God as a universal God who speaks to all, answers all prayers, and gives to all men liberally, Jew or Gentile.

If God is omnipotent, then he could simply force the people to understand. An omnipotent God does only what it wants to do. Yours happens to want to kill people more often than not. If my tone is getting more serious it is because this is where I start having problems with religion. You can never justify the wanton murder of people. I don't care if a supernatural being orders it and anyone following the orders of said being should be punished, not rewarded.

[Rama Set]

This is where religions that espouse deities of limited power rule. Obviously the Ancient Greeks are closer to the truth than the Abrahimics.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

It is God's All Power that makes it impossible to look at his face and live. And his all goodness. Since humans are neither powerful enough, nor good enough to stand in the Presence of the All Powerful, the All Holy, the All Good, it is no wonder that we should be unable to survive the experience.

I do believe the Ark still exists. I expect it is under Mount Moriah, where the Temple was built, and on top of which now sits the monstrosity now known as the Dome of the Rock. It should either be disassembled and sent in pieces to Saudi Arabia to be rebuilt there, or it should simply be blown up, in either case, to make room for the restored Jewish Temple. And once it is removed, then further investigation for the the Ark can be done. It has been stopped by the Israeli Government because further digging would possibly damage the foundation of the Dome of the Rock. But without that monstrosity there, it would no longer be anissue, we could find the Ark, and then build the Temple AFTER having found it.

As re: the fact that God has chosen a nation as his own, and has at times in the past ordered that nation to destroy other nations, I do know that at first blush, that appears pretty brutal. But that is simply a fact of life. God decides what is moral, not us. Remember that these were nations who passed their children through the fire to Molech. They were nations who indulged in ritual prostitution. They were nations that used eunuchs as catamites to satisfy their men's unnatural lusts. Before getting too critical, I recommend you actually READ Exodus.

Any religion that poses a deity that has limited power is basically posing a deity that is no deity, as per Anselm's Argument from Ontology.

[Rushy]

It is God's All Power that makes it impossible to look at his face and live. And his all goodness. Since humans are neither powerful enough, nor good enough to stand in the Presence of the All Powerful, the All Holy, the All Good, it is no wonder that we should be unable to survive the experience.

God decides whether a person can see him or not. Apparently he considers all people to be so beneath him that they should be killed should they see him. It's not a surprise considering how little God thinks of humanity, so at least it is consistent with the scripture.

As re: the fact that God has chosen a nation as his own, and has at times in the past ordered that nation to destroy other nations, I do know that at first blush, that appears pretty brutal. But that is simply a fact of life. God decides what is moral, not us. Remember that these were nations who passed their children through the fire to Molech. They were nations who indulged in ritual prostitution. They were nations that used eunuchs as catamites to satisfy their men's unnatural lusts. Before getting too critical, I recommend you actually READ Exodus.

Perhaps God is simply testing to see if you think for yourself. Perhaps God truly rewards those who would stand responsible for their own actions, rather than allow another being dictate everything to them like a child. There is even the third option, that God has never interacted with humanity and what Moses or the others encountered was some form of demonic entity attempting to mold human civilization. If God created the universe as it is, clearly it is already what God desired. Perhaps some more malevolent entity wished to exert power over something that is not their own.

Any religion that poses a deity that has limited power is basically posing a deity that is no deity, as per Anselm's Argument from Ontology.

The problem with an all-powerful deity is that from the point forward that you admit they are omnipotent and omniscient, then you must admit that you have no control over your own actions. Subsequently it means that God is literally the universe and what you do or believe has no impact whatsoever on anything.

[Rama Set]

The lack of free will is not a problem per se. It only becomes a problem if you value freedom and personal expression.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I've had these freewill debates in these fora before. I will say only this. God's foreknowledge of a thing does not imply that he chose that thing. It is still man's choice. I'm no 5 Point Calvinist who believes Double Predestination. & claiming that God created the Universe & then a malevolent being stepped in is basically Christianity w/ its devil. Jews don't (@ least most do not) believe in Hell. Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney of God's Heavenly Court. Mankind chose an evil act. Notice that Genesis never names the serpent. It took NT writers to make the connection between the serpent & Satan.

[Rushy]

I've had these freewill debates in these fora before. I will say only this. God's foreknowledge of a thing does not imply that he chose that thing. It is still man's choice. I'm no 5 Point Calvinist who believes Double Predestination. & claiming that God created the Universe & then a malevolent being stepped in is basically Christianity w/ its devil. Jews don't (@ least most do not) believe in Hell. Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney of God's Heavenly Court. Mankind chose an evil act. Notice that Genesis never names the serpent. It took NT writers to make the connection between the serpent & Satan.

The concept of hell is not necessary for a being to manipulate humans. At no point in any Jewish scripture is a truly omnipotent and omniscient being portrayed.

As far as you choosing, with an omnipotent God there is no choice. God created you therefore he created your actions. It would be impossible for you to do something God did not wish you to do.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Irush, I think a polite agreement to disaree is the furthest we can get here. Although earlier parts of the Bible could be read as being henotheistic, certainlly, by the time of Isaiah, we are reading about a God portrayed in the literature as omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, & the only true God. & I will still disagree w/ your def of free will.   God's foreknowledge of a thing does not include having decided that thing.

[Snupes]

Irush, I think a polite agreement to disaree is the furthest we can get here. Although earlier parts of the Bible could be read as being henotheistic, certainlly, by the time of Isaiah, we are reading about a God portrayed in the literature as omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, & the only true God. & I will still disagree w/ your def of free will.   God's foreknowledge of a thing does not include having decided that thing.

I dunno, I mean, since he's omniscient that means that before he even created you he knew everything you were ever going to do. It's arguable, I suppose, but really if he's omnipotent and omniscient then nothing happens that God doesn't want to happen. Everything that has and ever will happen is set. So every time he seems surprised and upset by humans and their actions in the Bible seems a bit odd. I mean, even at the very start, if he's omniscient then he knew Adam and Eve were going to eat that apple before he even created them...

[Blanko]

Irush, I think a polite agreement to disaree is the furthest we can get here. Although earlier parts of the Bible could be read as being henotheistic, certainlly, by the time of Isaiah, we are reading about a God portrayed in the literature as omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, & the only true God. & I will still disagree w/ your def of free will.   God's foreknowledge of a thing does not include having decided that thing.

I dunno, I mean, since he's omniscient that means that before he even created you he knew everything you were ever going to do. It's arguable, I suppose, but really if he's omnipotent and omniscient then nothing happens that God doesn't want to happen. Everything that has and ever will happen is set. So every time he seems surprised and upset by humans and their actions in the Bible seems a bit odd. I mean, even at the very start, if he's omniscient then he knew Adam and Eve were going to eat that apple before he even created them...

Well maybe he also knows that he's going to be upset

[DuckDodgers]

So God is a masochist and likes to inflict pain and displeasure on himself?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I wouldn't say that God wants bad things to happen. He knows they will, but not because he himself willed it to be so. Observe the following analogy (& no, it is NOT a perfect one): a man & a woman have a child. They raise him w/ every financial & moral advantage. He is never in want. He gets an excellent education, is loved by parents, siblings, & friends. All is going well for this boy. Yet in his teens he begins to misbehave. @ 1st, his pranks are harmless, even funny. But as he progresses to adulthood, they turn downright dangerous & even criminal. His father observes this in anguish. His other children turn into fine young men & women, good citizens all. But the one continues his self-destructive ways & means. His sorrowing parents begin to see that the end for their son will be the dark of a felon's cell, or, God forbid, a hangman's noose. Tell me. Even if they foresee this, are they to blame? I realise the analogy isn't perfect. But God creates us free. The fact that he knows what we will do (cont)

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

doesn't make us any less free. It simply means that our Creator has knowledge we lack.

[DuckDodgers]

Let's say you have a time machine and go 20 years into the future to see what your life is like.  Now let's say that you see that your teenaged child is behind bars waiting to be tried for a mass slaying of 50 people at a mall.  Now this is q child you haven't created yet, so you presumably have the ability to prevent his birth.  Would it be immoral of you to create said child?

[Snupes]

doesn't make us any less free. It simply means that our Creator has knowledge we lack.

The thing is, God knew exactly how things would turn out if He made us before He made us. He made the decision to go ahead with making us even though He knew how we would turn out. It's more like if a guy was psychic and knew his kids were going to turn out crazy and vicious and decided to do it anyway then got all surprised and upset that it happened as he knew it was going to.

[Rama Set]

I wouldn't say that God wants bad things to happen. He knows they will, but not because he himself willed it to be so.

Then he either could not change the bad thing to happen or he does not want to change it.  To me this says god either is not omnipotent or he is not omni-benevolent.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Duck, that is a very interesting question. I don't have an answer to it, because I don't know all the variables. Even if I did, I'm not sure I'd have an answer. Snupes, I'm not sure you can ascribe human emotions to the Deity. I mean, I know the Bible does. But that text was also written (the oldest parts of it) 4500 ya. I suspect that people of the Bronze Age probably needed that kind of thing, just as ancient Judaism sacrificed animals. I know the Orthodox want to rebuild the Temple & reinstitute the sacrificial cult. I'm w/ them on rebuilding the Temple as a House of Prayer for All People (as per Isaiah), but I, & many other Jews (inc. some Orthodox) are less certain about sacrificing animals again. So there you are. Back to God having human emotions, I don't know. It makes him sound limited, like a Greek god would be, say, Zeus, w/ his petty tantrums & jealousies. I'd like to think that the One True God & Creator of the universe & all that therein is would be above that.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Rama, forcing humans to do only good, & allowing only good things to occur, takes away free will. If the only option is a good option, is it truly good. Evil is the absence of good. If all things & situations are equally good, then is man truly free?

[Ghost of V]

Rama, forcing humans to do only good, & allowing only good things to occur, takes away free will. If the only option is a good option, is it truly good. Evil is the absence of good. If all things & situations are equally good, then is man truly free?

Why would God even care about freewill? It seems like an unnecessary middleman that just lands people in Hell.

The only answer I will accept is that God is omnipotent but indifferent to the plight of man. That's the only option that fits with the observable world around us. If God was benevolent and all-knowing: everyone would be saved.

[Shmeggley]

Lets see. The concept of blasphemy is the idea of insult to deity. Ergo, the concept has meaning. As far as seeing the face of God & living, what does being all-loving & yet so powerful that one can't be looked @ directly have about it that is so hard to understand?

The concept of blasphemy makes no sense. What actions of a few monkeys on a tiny backwater planet like Earth could possibly insult the creator of the entire universe? If he's all powerful, then surely he has the ability to not be insulted by anything. If I could change one thing about myself, surely it would be to not give a damn about what anyone else said or did to me. Is it possible that God could lack this ability?

As far as not being able to look at God directly, it seems to me that has a lot more to do with a human inability to comprehend infinity than with some property of an alleged all-powerful, infinite being.