Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 07:59:53 PM »
Planes make fuel stops when they want and call it what they want. You said that it was based on careful planning, yet we see numerous articles complaining of nonstop flights making fuel stops.

Tom,

      Everyone here has conceded that flights, at one point or another, will make unscheduled stops on non-stop flights. When we talk about these flights we are talking about the flights that didn't stop. Where if you gave the passengers a questionnaire "Did this flight stop before it reached its destination" 100% would say no.


Can you provide a source on the flight data that doesn't come from NASA?

This depends on what flight data you are asking for. Information like takeoff location, landing location, number of stops, takeoff time, landing time, and flight time can be easily verified. They can be corroborated by every passenger on the plane, air traffic controllers for multiple airlines, friends/family of the airline passengers, thousands of airport employees, non passengers at the airport who watched the plane takeoff/land and the airlines themselves.

Things like landmarks the plane has passed over could be corroborated by anyone with a windows seat.

Could this data also come from NASA? I dunno maybe. But if NASA lied about anything listed above it would be very easy to debunk as there would be hundreds of thousands of witnesses to this lie every single day.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 08:05:09 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 08:58:06 PM »
Quote
But if NASA lied about anything listed above it would be very easy to debunk as there would be hundreds of thousands of witnesses to this lie every single day.

The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 09:41:17 PM »
The articles also explain why they sometimes do that and make it clear that this is very much the exception rather than the rule.
There is a clue in the word "unscheduled".
And the examples in the article are northern hemisphere routes - well, the one I could read were.
None of this in any way casts doubt on the fact that there are non-stop southern hemisphere routes and the YouTube video by Mark Sargent which started this discussion has plenty of comments from people who say they have been on these routes.
So I don't know what point you think you're making.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 09:47:13 PM »
Lots of mis-information here. 

When an airliner closes the door, and leaves the gate, the captain of aircraft (pilot in command) is in absolute control of the aircraft by federal regulations. If the pilot in command believes that a stop is necessary for the safety of the passengers, crew, and aircraft then a stop will be made.  You can be sure that if the airline believes that the pilot in command wasn't justified in his decision, based upon the judgement of the airlines chief pilot, then that pilot may loose his job.  Any non-stop flight can stop along the way due to a whole host of reasons.  Airlines have been sued by people who thought that they should have stopped but didn't.  Maybe a passenger had a medical condition, like a bad hang nail, and requested medical attention.  At that point the pilot in command has to make a very difficult decision.  Additionally, while the aircraft is at the gate the aircraft is fueled.  The more fuel that's put aboard the less payload can be carried.  It's a real balancing act.  If the pilot had a crystal ball and knew exactly what the weather conditions would be along the way, better decisions could be made.

The news reports did say that there had been some unusual weather conditions aloft causing a lot of headwinds.  Of course when this happens the over the ground speed of the plane slows down and the aircraft runs low on fuel.

Flight information regarding the position of the aircraft along the way most likely is coming from a private company called INMARSAT.  They have a service called Sat-C that provided regular position reports.  We used the same service on ships.  I am familiar with the equipment.   I doubt that NASA is involved here. 

The nice video Tom had linked was a little mis-informed.  The commentator did say that the aircraft was being tracked by ATC.  He did use the words Arctic, but of course what he should have said was 'air traffic control', that's what ATC means.  Radar (ATC) can only be used for a tiny fraction of the route.  Radar has a very limited range.  INMARSAT is the real workhorse here.

What you have here is airlines struggling to make a profit, they moved into more efficient aircraft to reduce costs like any good corporation should do.  Would blame them if you were a stock holder?  Unusual weather conditions were working against them and they had to make unscheduled stops that looked bad for them.  Do you really think the company wanted to do things that way?  Would it look a lot worse if an aircraft ran out of fuel, crashed & killed all aboard?  Is this a NASA conspiracy?  Are the Masons at fault for producing a defective earth map?  All some really good questions but I'm sure that most really believe that the whole problem is just some unusual weather conditions that eventually will change.

 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 10:05:47 PM »
Quote
But if NASA lied about anything listed above it would be very easy to debunk as there would be hundreds of thousands of witnesses to this lie every single day.

The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.
Please provide numbers to justify the word regular.  No stops mid Atlantic.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 02:04:50 AM »
Quote
But if NASA lied about anything listed above it would be very easy to debunk as there would be hundreds of thousands of witnesses to this lie every single day.

The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.

Tom,

I had previously explained that everyone agrees. We all agree that nonstop flights make unscheduled stops on a regular basis. As a counterpoint there are many times that nonstop flights DON'T make any stops other than takeoff and landing. Those are the flights we are talking about.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 04:06:12 PM by iamcpc »

Online edby

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 09:04:10 AM »
The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.
Evidence is the regularity of flights across wide stretches of ocean, e.g. Pacific and Atlantic, where unscheduled stops are not possible.

Also, as the previous post asked, please quantify 'regular'. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 11:57:21 AM »
The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.
Evidence is the regularity of flights across wide stretches of ocean, e.g. Pacific and Atlantic, where unscheduled stops are not possible.

Also, as the previous post asked, please quantify 'regular'. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?
I'm not even sure that matters. The articles make clear that these are unscheduled stops. As in they are not planned.
So yes, on occasion planes which are supposed to fly direct actually don't. I've never been on one but fine, let's concede that happens sometimes.
So what?
Let's pretend that half the time plans make unscheduled stops - in real life it's nowhere near that high, but let's suppose.
That still means that half the time these plans do fly those routes non-stop in the time they say they will.
The original assertion in the video was you can't find non-stop flights like this in the southern hemisphere. I spent about 15 minutes and found one and then later noticed that the video has lots of comments from people saying they'd personally taken those routes.
So I'm not sure what the fact that sometimes flights have to make unscheduled stops adds to the discussion.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Online edby

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 12:44:09 PM »
Punctuality statistics from Uk Civil Aviation Authority here.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 07:54:20 PM »
Also, as the previous post asked, please quantify 'regular'. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?

There are two types of flights.
1. Flights which have no stops other than departing for a destination and landing at the destination. We call these nonstop flights.
2. Flights with a stop which is either scheduled or unscheduled.


It does not matter if it's 1 in 10, or 1 in 2. There are still two types of flights. We are still talking about nonstop flights if they make up 50% of flights or 90% of flights.  Tom's evidence is about group number 2.

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Offline stack

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 09:18:57 PM »
Also, as the previous post asked, please quantify 'regular'. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?

There are two types of flights.
1. Flights which have no stops other than departing for a destination and landing at the destination. We call these nonstop flights.
2. Flights with a stop which is either scheduled or unscheduled.


It does not matter if it's 1 in 10, or 1 in 2. There are still two types of flights. We are still talking about nonstop flights if they make up 50% of flights or 90% of flights.  Tom's evidence is about group number 2.

Agreed, it doesn't matter. Some nonstops stop, unscheduled, due to weather, equipment issues, whatever, doesn't matter. Lots of nonstop flights don't stop and are, in fact, nonstop flights. It's just a Tom distraction to evade the question in the OP:

"This distance seems astronomical on a flat earth map. So how is this possible?"
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2019, 02:14:26 PM »
The news articles do say that nonstop flights divert from course and make unscheduled stops on a regular basis, and that it annoys people. The articles are evidence that they do regularly do that, and you are professing only belief that they don't do that.
Evidence is the regularity of flights across wide stretches of ocean, e.g. Pacific and Atlantic, where unscheduled stops are not possible.

Also, as the previous post asked, please quantify 'regular'. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?
You have no strong evidence of regular flights occurring non-stop over wide stretches of open ocean.

You have a pretty red line drawn on a globe (something any six year old can do) purporting to be a flight path, you have a website purorting these flights exists, with the same website demanding (NON-REFUNDABLE AND UPFRONT) thousands of USD to even reserve a ticket on these supposed flights, and an interview with John Travolta...

Not very strong evidence...

THE FACT REMAINS most flights from Sydney or Perth still take what turn out to be routes most easily navigated above a flat plain of the earth and make planned stops in Dubai and/or LA.

Online edby

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2019, 02:25:06 PM »
you have a website purorting these flights exists
As mentioned in an earlier post, I live close to a major airport landing path, and can see aircraft landing from my window. What I see from the window exactly matches what I see on the website.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 04:38:08 PM »
you have a website purorting these flights exists
As mentioned in an earlier post, I live close to a major airport landing path, and can see aircraft landing from my window. What I see from the window exactly matches what I see on the website.
Oh, so you admit you are the one doing the false graphics for the website?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 05:02:10 PM »
You have no strong evidence of regular flights occurring non-stop over wide stretches of open ocean.

Uh yes I do. I flew to Hawaii with my wife. We looked out the window with an airplane full of people all excited to go to Hawaii. Our flight didn't stop and all we saw was oceans. Not only my wife and I saw this but EVERYONE on the plane corroborated that we didn't fly over any land on our way to Hawaii. Did my honeymoon not exist? It's funny because pictures of it and the ocean flight are all over my wife's facebook page.

My mom flew to Hawaii. She looked out the window with an airplane full of people all excited to go to Hawaii. Her flight didn't stop and all she saw was oceans. Not only my wife and I saw this but EVERYONE on the plane corroborated that we didn't fly over any land on our way to Hawaii. Did that trip not exist?

My coworker flew to Hawaii. She looked out the window with an airplane full of people all excited to go to Hawaii. Her flight didn't stop and all we saw was oceans. Not only my wife and I saw this but EVERYONE on the plane corroborated that we didn't fly over any land on our way to Hawaii. Is my coworker lying?

I flew to Europe in high school with the orchestra. One of our flights was from was from new york to london. The entire orchestra was looking out the window with an airplane full of people all excited to go to London. Our flight didn't stop and all we saw was oceans. Not only the entire orchestra saw this but EVERYONE on the plane corroborated that we didn't fly over any land on our way to London. Did the entire orchestra hallucinate this flight?

I've done more traveling so Do I really need to continue? Based on your statement you have never taken a flight to Europe or Asia.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:04:27 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2019, 05:06:50 PM »
You have no strong evidence of regular flights occurring non-stop over wide stretches of open ocean.

Uh yes I do. I flew to Hawaii with my wife...I flew to Europe in high school with the orchestra...
Congratulations on your trips.

Hope you get to go again real soon.

Neither of these flights you mention are considered "wide stretches of open ocean."

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 05:45:10 PM »
Congratulations on your trips.

Hope you get to go again real soon.

Neither of these flights you mention are considered "wide stretches of open ocean."

Thank you for the contgrats!
Also thank you so much for the response!

A bit of advice: if you go to Hawaii just don't come back. Coming back from that tropical paradise was the biggest mistake of my life.



Also sorry for the confusion. What is considered a wide stretch of open ocean?

Some in the FE community claim that long distances over the ocean have not been measured. I've slowly been leaning toward the idea that they have. Are you of the opinion that the distance between like New York and Paris is known? Tom has pointed out several times that measurements made based on a spherical coordinate system will always give results that would only be possible on a sphere.

The FE model I most closely relate to is not very popular. The flat circular disk with the North Pole in the middle has a hard time matching up with this flight data so any help you can give me is greatly appreciated.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 05:48:30 PM »
I flew from Los Angeles to Tokyo over the entire Pacific Ocean without any stops. Is that wide enough?
BobLawBlah.

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Offline stack

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Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 07:14:37 PM »
United used to have a nonstop from Milan to SFO. I flew it twice. Neither time did it stop. Crushingly long flight. About 11 hours. Oddly, both times it flew way out of the way up over Greenland and back down through northern Canada. Had they been following flat earth flight rules, they just would have done a straight shot West.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Flight Paths
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2019, 01:32:51 PM »
I flew from Los Angeles to Tokyo over the entire Pacific Ocean without any stops. Is that wide enough?
You have no method of reporting what route you actually took.

Even so, the straight line distance between the two points you mention is not all that different from the difference touted between New York and Paris.