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Offline JRowe

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What FE Experiment would you believe?
« on: July 16, 2018, 12:54:20 AM »
It's pretty common for REers to demand FEers perform experiments of varying degrees of practicality and usefulness, so let's check the value. Let's suppose a FEer on this forum decided to go ahead and do one of those experiments (as has happened, but never mind), and he reports back that he got the FE outcome.

Would you believe him?
What would it take for you to believe him?
Are there any users or experiments you would reject automatically, or be more disposed to accept?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 07:36:27 AM »
It's pretty common for REers to demand FEers perform experiments of varying degrees of practicality and usefulness  ...

My experience is that when FE is shown an experiment and asked to perform it, everything goes very quiet after the request, so I feel your thread is moot.

No amount of asking by RE to FE will persuade FE to actually do stuff.
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 10:33:25 AM »
Simple experiment really.

Use any tool which can show level. Use an app, use a bubble level, make a contraption with 2 containers of water connected with a tube so the water runs freely.
Now use this tool at a beach with a clear view to the horizon, show that it detects the horizon as being at eye-level.
Then use this tool when at altitude, on a plane, a mountain, a skyscraper, show that the horizon is still at eye-level.

This experiment would show if the horizon is at eye-level as stated by FE, or if it is below eye-level at altitude as stated by RE.

So far, I have yet to see any FEer do this simple experiment EVER, and I have only seen REers do this experiment at altitude (where it shows a dip in the horizon) without showing an accompanying test at low altitude for comparison (though in most cases, this is not required, as they use decent measuring gear like the containers of water, which we know to be level due to physics).


Besides, I would reject any FEer which does an experiment (accepted by REers even), and then uses a full day with nothing to show for it, and then changes the experiment completely to something which logically wont work. Yes I have seen this happen.

Example:

I don't expect you to watch a 1 hour video, but basically Jeranism (a FE youtuber) proposed a laser test (they made a big deal out of it before the test, and this test was fine and even agreed upon by REers to be correct). He and 9 other FEers met, they spent the whole day trying to do the test, yet the results clearly wasn't anything they wanted to share and instead they wrote a small comment about it where they proposed a brand new test. This new test would however completely fail as explained in the video above, using a very nice 2D model in 3ds Max. But alas, Jeranism never made the test anyways.

Basically put, I would not believe an FEer like Jeranism who hides the results completely and has basically no explanation of why they didn't share any results.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 10:47:45 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 10:35:47 AM »
It's pretty common for REers to demand FEers perform experiments of varying degrees of practicality and usefulness  ...

My experience is that when FE is shown an experiment and asked to perform it, everything goes very quiet after the request, so I feel your thread is moot.

No amount of asking by RE to FE will persuade FE to actually do stuff.
And there's a reason why. On top of how unpractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

Simple experiment really.

Use any tool which can show level. Use an app, use a bubble level, make a contraption with 2 containers of water connected with a tube so the water runs freely.
Now use this tool at a beach with a clear view to the horizon, show that it detects the horizon as being at eye-level.
Then use this tool when at altitude, on a plane, a mountain, a skyscraper, show that the horizon is still at eye-level.

This experiment would show if the horizon is at eye-level as stated by FE, or if it is below eye-level at altitude as stated by RE.

So far, I have yet to see any FEer do this simple experiment EVER, and I have only seen REers do this experiment at altitude (where it shows a dip in the horizon) without showing an accompanying test at low altitude for comparison (though in most cases, this is not required, as they use decent measuring gear like the containers of water, which we know to be level due to physics).
So if a FEer performed that and said they got the FE result, that would be enough for you?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 10:57:38 AM »
Simple experiment really.

Use any tool which can show level. Use an app, use a bubble level, make a contraption with 2 containers of water connected with a tube so the water runs freely.
Now use this tool at a beach with a clear view to the horizon, show that it detects the horizon as being at eye-level.
Then use this tool when at altitude, on a plane, a mountain, a skyscraper, show that the horizon is still at eye-level.

This experiment would show if the horizon is at eye-level as stated by FE, or if it is below eye-level at altitude as stated by RE.

So far, I have yet to see any FEer do this simple experiment EVER, and I have only seen REers do this experiment at altitude (where it shows a dip in the horizon) without showing an accompanying test at low altitude for comparison (though in most cases, this is not required, as they use decent measuring gear like the containers of water, which we know to be level due to physics).
So if a FEer performed that and said they got the FE result, that would be enough for you?
I would hope they at least would take some photos to share.

I generally believe the video results and images shared by almost everyone. I have a harder time using the given claims from them.
Just a recent video on youtube, an FEer claimed he could see a building 22 miles away. He included the calculated hidden height from a curvature calculater (easily verified) and he included the building height that he saw. The problem however was that he completely neglected that the building was built at an altitude, he also didn't factor in that the sea level was really low, and finally he didn't factor in refraction (which makes a huge difference at surface level and especially when taking video over 22 miles of water).

I trust the observations, especially those I can verify due to the location being stated. But I would need all the relevant data aswell.
In my stated experiment, I would at least like the location of the high-altitude experiment, and I would like a clear image of the result (as in a photo taken along the tool to show if the horizon is eye-level or below).

I have an app installed called Dioptra, it can show the amount of degrees to the object I point at. As an app programmer, I know how bad such measurements can be, and I can easily see through experiments that it is 1 degree off constantly. Accounting for this 1 degree (I wish the app could be calibrated properly) I can now do experiments at all altitudes and check the results, though in my whole country, the highest point is 172m and far from any ocean to show level, so I have a hard time doing the experiment myself.


Lets see how an FEer tries the experiment I had:


holding the tool and camera in his hand very unstable, but at least the concept is there, taking a measurement at 2m and 60m.

Then we have the REers test:

the tubes are way more stable when held against the ground, the tubes are wider and allow the water to flow more freely, it also takes measurements at altitudes of 2m, 350m and 1700m, clearly showing a dip in the horizon.

So, the results are clearly opposite, the FE claims no dip, and the RE claims larger dip. Which should I trust? I believe both of their observations to be true.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:33:31 PM by SphericalEarther »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 12:41:11 PM »
And there's a reason why. On top of how impractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

.. you mean you want a get-out clause which says that if you don't think the experiment is worthwhile, you can dodge out of it?

You insist in other threads on "scientific method". Well, in simple form, that is;

Formulate hypothesis
Devise test to test hypothesis
Record results, which may or may not confirm hypothesis.

Example;

Hypothesis; The Earth and Moon are both illuminated by a sun which is far distant from both.

Test 1; Observe the Moon in daylight. Hold up a ball or selection of balls in front of the Moon to see if there's any commonality to the illumination of each.

Result 1; The ball always shows the same light/shadow pattern as the Moon does, on the same side.

Conclusion 1; They are illuminated by the same light source.


Test 2; Fly out to space and take a photo of the Earth from the region of the Moon

Result 2; The Earth shows a half Earth phases, in a similar fashion to a half moon



Conclusion 2; The Earth and Moon are both illuminated by the same light source.

(I realise Test 2 is impractical for us mere mortals, but surely you must agree that it reinforces the conclusion from Test 1...)


In recent days, I and others have tried to persuade Tom Bishop to do Test 1, but he's gone very, very quiet on it. I see no sign that he's done this, nor any sign that he has any valid get-out clause as described above.

Test 1 is SO simple, why would you refuse to do it?
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 12:45:29 PM »
And there's a reason why. On top of how impractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

.. you mean you want a get-out clause which says that if you don't think the experiment is worthwhile, you can dodge out of it?
...
Test 1 is SO simple, why would you refuse to do it?
My question is so simple, why do you refuse to answer it?
Ok, I've performed it, the light on the ball was different to that on the moon. Do you believe me?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 01:29:08 PM »
And there's a reason why. On top of how impractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

.. you mean you want a get-out clause which says that if you don't think the experiment is worthwhile, you can dodge out of it?
...
Test 1 is SO simple, why would you refuse to do it?
My question is so simple, why do you refuse to answer it?
Ok, I've performed it, the light on the ball was different to that on the moon. Do you believe me?
Produce a map would be a good start, we know many measured distances.

Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 01:29:37 PM »
And there's a reason why. On top of how impractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

.. you mean you want a get-out clause which says that if you don't think the experiment is worthwhile, you can dodge out of it?
...
Test 1 is SO simple, why would you refuse to do it?
My question is so simple, why do you refuse to answer it?
Ok, I've performed it, the light on the ball was different to that on the moon. Do you believe me?
In the immortal words of the internet: Pics or it didn't happen.

I'm game for most experiments. But they need to be more thoroughly documented than something like ENaG is. Location, time, images, etc. Preferably this should be treated as a scientific experiment with the number of expectations for thoroughness of inquiry. ENaG is entirely built on 'I saw what I claimed I would see' with varying degrees of words to back it up. Yet I've seen very little, if any, corroboration to his statements. So yes, if you get an FE result I would expect at a bare minimum a thorough description of the tools used, and the steps performed, as well as preferably images. The steps and information should be detailed enough that I could go and repeat the experiment and receive the same result every time, without having to refer to an outside source for information on how to do it.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 01:34:58 PM »
Produce a map would be a good start, we know many measured distances.

Ok, here's a map. Do you believe it?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Offline edby

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 02:28:28 PM »
Produce a map would be a good start, we know many measured distances.

Ok, here's a map. Do you believe it?
And estimate distances between places on the earth itself that are consistent with the distances on the map.

Let's start with the distance from Sydney to Perth.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 02:40:53 PM »
And there's a reason why. On top of how impractical a lot of the proposals are, how about we get a feel for which experiments there are actually a point in performing before you complain we haven't done them?

.. you mean you want a get-out clause which says that if you don't think the experiment is worthwhile, you can dodge out of it?
...
Test 1 is SO simple, why would you refuse to do it?
My question is so simple, why do you refuse to answer it?

I did. The answer is above, isn't it? In bold, this time.

Ok, I've performed it, the light on the ball was different to that on the moon. Do you believe me?

When I did it, I took photos of what I did. Most everyone who does the experiment will do this to show the result. Did you?

I don't explicitly disbelieve you, but you've shown no data about what you did. When, where the sun and moon were at the time, how many times you repeated it, if at all. So I'm agnostic about your experiment. I neither believe nor disbelieve you. Show us some photos and some data.

Here's mine from two consecutive days. First one was mid-afternoon, second was mid-morning. I failed to note exact positions for the first, but for the second, the Moon was slightly West of South, Sun rising in the East, with about 90 degrees between them.

https://imgur.com/a/Ci10Oo

https://imgur.com/a/7DMpx3L
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 02:56:12 PM »
And estimate distances between places on the earth itself that are consistent with the distances on the map.

Let's start with the distance from Sydney to Perth.
Why is it any time I start a thread REers feel the need to change the topic?

My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Offline edby

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2018, 02:59:20 PM »
And estimate distances between places on the earth itself that are consistent with the distances on the map.

Let's start with the distance from Sydney to Perth.
Why is it any time I start a thread REers feel the need to change the topic?

Your question was 'What would it take for you to believe him?', and is connected with the request above to produce a map. For me, a map is not enough. The acid test is one where distances on the map correspond to the distances in reality.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2018, 03:08:22 PM »
And estimate distances between places on the earth itself that are consistent with the distances on the map.

Let's start with the distance from Sydney to Perth.
Why is it any time I start a thread REers feel the need to change the topic?

How can you deem that "changing the topic" when you introduced the map to the thread, and asked "Do you believe it" ?
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2018, 03:16:18 PM »
And estimate distances between places on the earth itself that are consistent with the distances on the map.

Let's start with the distance from Sydney to Perth.
Why is it any time I start a thread REers feel the need to change the topic?

Your question was 'What would it take for you to believe him?', and is connected with the request above to produce a map. For me, a map is not enough. The acid test is one where distances on the map correspond to the distances in reality.

None of which Inquisitive said, hence responding with that. I am not debating the veracity of the map, that's not even the map I accept, I am trying to see what experiments REers would actually accept and there've been, what, two replies so far? And, no, yours doesn't qualify because it did not give any real indication of what you wanted.
Ok then, if that's your test, how much would you want? The FEer to claim the distances match up, a 14 hour recording of a flight, what?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Offline edby

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2018, 03:26:58 PM »
Ok then, if that's your test, how much would you want? The FEer to claim the distances match up, a 14 hour recording of a flight, what?
OK, (1) produce a map of the known world, to scale and (2) test the scale by showing that the distances on the ground correspond to the distances on the map.

Evidence for testing the distance on the ground your choice, could include Google maps, survey maps, flight times etc.




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Offline JRowe

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2018, 03:34:07 PM »
Ok then, if that's your test, how much would you want? The FEer to claim the distances match up, a 14 hour recording of a flight, what?
OK, (1) produce a map of the known world, to scale and (2) test the scale by showing that the distances on the ground correspond to the distances on the map.

Evidence for testing the distance on the ground your choice, could include Google maps, survey maps, flight times etc.
And if it turns out there's a significant amount of error in the popularised values of those measurements, what would suffice as evidence of that for you?
Otherwise your standard is less 'make a reliable map,' but rather 'make a map that fits onto a globe.'
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Offline edby

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2018, 03:37:11 PM »
Ok then, if that's your test, how much would you want? The FEer to claim the distances match up, a 14 hour recording of a flight, what?
OK, (1) produce a map of the known world, to scale and (2) test the scale by showing that the distances on the ground correspond to the distances on the map.

Evidence for testing the distance on the ground your choice, could include Google maps, survey maps, flight times etc.
And if it turns out there's a significant amount of error in the popularised values of those measurements, what would suffice as evidence of that for you?
Otherwise your standard is less 'make a reliable map,' but rather 'make a map that fits onto a globe.'

I suggested between Sydney and Perth, but anywhere in a southerly latitude would do. The challenge for FE has always been southern hemisphere cartography, as you probably know.

Some FE maps have curved lines of longitude. If you choose one of those, you would have to provide evidence that such curvature exists.

Sorry, I missed this:

Quote
Otherwise your standard is less 'make a reliable map,' but rather 'make a map that fits onto a globe.'
Why so? Do you mean that the distances Google maps (e.g.) assume a round earth model?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 03:38:54 PM by edby »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What FE Experiment would you believe?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2018, 03:52:16 PM »
I am trying to see what experiments REers would actually accept and there've been, what, two replies so far?

It's only been 4 hours since you started the thread, and the West Coast of the USA is barely waking up.
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"