Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2018, 02:28:00 PM »
Sometimes the best (if not the only) way to prove something is true, is to try to prove the opposing side. If the proof contradicts the premise, then you assume it is false and therefore the other side is true. Now, this only works for binary situations where there is only two side and one side MUST be true. I think in the case of FE vs RE, there are two definitive sides and only one of them can be true... unless someone wants to propose a square earth?
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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2018, 03:25:59 PM »
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
But he was flinging himself about on rockets long before he got interested in FET. It would be disingenuous to attribute his case to this.

If anything, he identified FE believers' as a potential source of funding and reached out to them after a previous non-FE fundraiser failed.
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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2018, 03:40:28 PM »
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
If anything, he identified FE believers' as a potential source of funding and reached out to them after a previous non-FE fundraiser failed.

Why so cynical?  :)

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2018, 04:55:48 PM »
I don't see that it is dangerous at all.

Being someone who lives life according believing in the round earth theory, I don't see any harm in a community of people trying to prove otherwise.

It doesn't really affect anything in my life, or their own, members of their family etc. if they believe the Earth is flat (for the sake of this point, I am not saying that it is or is not flat), just like it doesn't really affect them if I believe the Earth is round.

When this does become a problem is when you get idiots who seem to think it is right to abuse others, either physically or mentally, because their view of something that is relatively trivial, differs from their own.

(I firmly believe that the stuff I have said above should also adhere to religion, country of birth, colour of skin, age, etc.)

As another user has put, there have been "studies" into other topics, like vaccinations, that were completely untrue but pushed nonetheless. Believing in these is dangerous as these can actually have an affect on a person's health, and worse than that the affect is on someone else's life because they are too young to be able to make their own informed choice.



In a nutshell, no, not dangerous. Even if it turns out that I am wrong and things like GPS and mobile phone satellites are faked and actually work through someway on Earth, then it still does not make a difference to my life. They still work, just not in the way I am told they work

I think my concern about FET being dangerous is cherry picking which mathematics are acceptable and which are not. For example, is it be acceptable (or safe) to dispute the mathematics of the sub-c Newtonian theory of gravitation and circular motion yet accept the mathematics of a sub-c amusement park ride exhibiting the same motion is true? This is surely a paradox: a person who designs a safe amusement park ride surely cannot also believe in FET - or how could he/she actually believe in their own calculations? The mathematics predict the same outcomes!

On a more philosophical level, challenging established scientific theory is healthy, important and inherently safe - as theories can be hypothesied, tested, repeated (or not) and accepted or refuted. The problem with FET is that there is only a hypoetheis. There is no repeatable, achievable experiement to accept or refute. Why? Because like all conspiracy theory, any evidence disputing accepted science is simply rubbished as fabricated, conspitorial and more paradoxically - proof of the conspiracy!

Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

Thus the danger of FET? Any evidence or repeatable proof offered to contradict FET is simply labelled "conspiracy", "lies", "faulty measurement" etc. or weak alternate and non-provable theory (e.g. observable GPS satellites being "high altitude planes - possible solar powered"), with no counter-evidence to prove the theory.

Hypotheses, like "fairies at the bottom of the garden", without testable and repeatable evidence, that vehemently refute tesable and repeatable evidence, risk underminging human scientific endeavour on many so levels.
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2018, 06:08:29 PM »
Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

And if you were to actually watch those FE videos, they show how some scenes taken from inside the craft show a much flatter horizon when looking out and other scenes show a curved horizon. Whether the usage of fish-eye lenses was deliberate or not, you are misrepresenting the issue. Since you brought this up, and neglected to mention this, that just shows you to be deceptive, only seeking to make your case and "win" your argument.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 08:44:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2018, 06:55:44 PM »
Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

And if you were to actually watch those FE, they show how some scenes taken from inside the craft show a much flatter horizon when looking out and other scenes show a curved horizon. Whether the usage of fish-eye lenses was deliberate or not, you are misrepresenting the issue. Since you brought this up, and neglected to mention this, that just shows you to be an untrustworthy individual, only seeking to make your case and "win" your argument.


I can confirm I have watched the available footage from the world record jump and seen hundreds of photos. Regardless of the camera or its position, there is always a curve: "much flatter" = still curved. On some images, the curve is more pronounced than others and that would be expected given how much of the foreground vs background is in shot, the lens used and depth of field.

I find it incredible that you label me "untrustworthy" on the basis that I "neglected to mention" this, when in all honesty, I thought the differences in the horizon were quite obviously explained by the above optical phenomena.
I thought the idea of a forum was to debate? The FES forum's home mission statement states: "This is the home of the world-famous Flat Earth Society, a place for free thinkers and the intellectual exchange of ideas."?

I cannot see how your post in any way supports that aim. It's just an attack on someone who doesn't share the same opinion as you do.

Is it not possible to simply discuss the science without personal attacks? Please?
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2018, 07:27:52 PM »
I believe the curve in that video is MOSTLY due to lens effect. The reason for this belief is as Tom pointed out, the scenes where you can see the horizon from within the cockpit are not curved the same way as it is with the outside cameras. None of this conjecture proves or disproves anything because it is all still perspective and camera angles. I'm sure there is a more empirical way to decipher this...

We know he was 128,000 feet high. There must be a way to calculate the vanishing point at this height and compare the approximate distance that you can see in that video and determine if they match. If the vanishing point is further than the viewable distance in that video, that would be evidence that the earth is round. The challenge will be determining how far you can see based on that video.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2018, 08:32:04 PM »
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
:)
Both RET and FET have produced people strapping themselves into rockets.
There's nothing more dangerous than an idea, if it's the only one you have. -Émile Chartier

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2018, 11:05:13 AM »
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
:)
Both RET and FET have produced people strapping themselves into rockets.

Indeed. Space travel still remains very dangerous. The difference between "Mad Mike Hughes" and professional astronauts being the latter have enormous teams of very clever scientists & engineers paying attention to every last possible detail to mitigate risk. I believe "Mad Mike Hughes" just jumped on the FE bandwagon purely as a way to raise money. I think he duped the movement.
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2018, 02:57:26 PM »
I wouldn't say the ideology itself is dangerous. There are people who believe Islam is a dangerous belief due to the actions of terrorist. There are racial hate groups in America that base there beliefs in their reading of the Christian Bible.  I don't think that makes the ideas dangerous.

The danger from FET comes from individuals associated with it. How long before someone (from 'the other forum') shows up at the Johnson Space Center with a rifle demanding the truth and the release of flat earthers held in capitivity. Just like the pizza-gate conspiracy freak, when no hidden truth is found, the incident will be labelled by conspiracy theorists as a 'false flag' operation to discredit FET.

It could be even darker. Imagine a group of FET extremists (who genuinely think that their fellow believers have been abducted by NASA) storming the JPL in California alla Cliven Bundy style.


If I have a concern about the ideology, it is that it makes it ok to disregard physical facts in place of whatever a person chooses to believe. This is a serious problem in America where people now believe whatever they want and call anything that challenges their belief fake news or alternative facts. People believe whatever they want even if it's advertising BS, Russian disinformation or political propaganda.

They disregard reality and call it 'free-thinking'.
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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2018, 01:08:58 AM »
I don't think flat earth belief is dangerous....unless flat earthers blew up the Challenger.  Anyone can believe what they want, and whether they hurt people in the process will have its own consequences.

Of course, believing in something and denying evidence to the contrary probably isn't very healthy.
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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2018, 06:22:14 PM »
Flat earth itself is not dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with questions, healthy skepticism, or furthering research.

But, you have to be careful. If you fall to far down the rabbit hole then the line between healthy and unhealthy starts to blur.

You dont want to become a closed mind zealot or a conspiracy theorists who wont leave the basemen.

As long as your willing to look at both sides with an open mind, question everything you want.
Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Perception is a guess or estimate of what is 'out there' depending on how we read the clues; therefore it can never be absolute and often is unreliable.

Offline Parallax

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2018, 08:39:08 PM »
In no way is believing the earth is flat dangerous. Just like it's not dangerous to believe the earth being round is dangerous. At the end of the day, humans are free to believe what they want, you can educate people to believe what is true, but it comes down to them. If they do their own research and come to their own conclusions then that doesn't mean they are dangerous. They aren't trolls. They aren't nuts. They are just going along with what they believe in. There isn't anything dangerous about that.

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2018, 09:58:52 PM »
The danger comes into play when you stop believing in humanity. It gets dangerous when you lose sense of feeling, and become numb. Complacent. Apathetic. When you put yourself above others. When the cause becomes greater than humanity.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2018, 12:47:23 PM »
As mentioned before in other posts, belief in the flat earth is not dangerous.

It is the process of arriving in that belief that is quite dangerous.  The flat earth brand of radicalized Zetetic thinking is about personal interpretations of personal observations.  It rationalizes anything you want to believe with no regard for testable reality.  Normally, this would only be a threat to the willfully ignorant.  (eg: I've smoked cigarettes for 20 years and there's nothing wrong with them.  The campaign against smoking is a leftist, liberal attack on hardworking tobacco farmers.) As a Libertarian, I've always believed a person should be allowed to willfully choose ignorance. In the Amish faith, education beyond 7th or 8th grade is considered going against God's plan. More power to them...

However, when this ideology goes beyond the world and is applied to people, personal interpretations of personal observations become justification for racism, religious prejudice, bigotry and hate.  It disregards actual quantifiable evidence just as flat earth people disregard evidence of a round earth.

When this ideology is applied to history, personal interpretations of personal observations lead to revisionism and propaganda.  A person can arbitrarily decide that the Crusades were real and the Holocaust was not.  An American president can deny thousands of fatalities in the Puerto Rican hurricane.

.. and when someone is called out for their beliefs, all you have to do is answer with insults.
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Offline stack

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2018, 05:54:34 PM »
I wouldn’t say dangerous, just uncomfortable.

I would feel distinctly uneasy if upon approach into SFO, the Captain came on and said, “We’ll be touching down in twenty minutes. First Officer Frank and I are staunch flat earth believers and don’t rely on any of our instrumentation that training suggests takes into account a spherical planet. We do hope you enjoy your destination and please do fly with us again."

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2018, 06:14:27 AM »
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2018, 07:55:16 AM »
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.
What map would they be based on?

Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2018, 02:38:59 PM »
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.

The assumption that the ground underneath them is relatively flat, not the entire earth. Planes do not have to take into account the curve of the earth because gravity makes their relative position always perpendicular with the ground, so as far as the plane is concerned, it is flat. Navigation systems on the other hand would have to be designed around coordinates. To get from point a to point b you need to account for the direction vector that points you in the direction of b. With such a large earth even the direction you are heading can appear to be based on flat ground.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 02:47:10 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline stack

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Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2018, 11:15:15 PM »
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.

You might want to let the FAA know this. Chapter 16 on Navigation seems to strongly suggest otherwise.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf