Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2019, 07:44:19 PM »
Quote from: markjo
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?
...
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.

Right, but backwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon
"When viewed from the north celestial pole (i.e., from the approximate direction of the star Polaris) the Moon orbits Earth anticlockwise and Earth orbits the Sun anticlockwise, and the Moon and Earth rotate on their own axes anticlockwise."

CCW looking down from the North... that means rotating from West to East.
Earth turns 15.0 degrees per hour towards the East (CCW)
Moon rotates 0.5 degrees per hour towards the East (CCW)
This makes the apparent speed of the Moon across our sky 14.5 degrees per hour - NOT 15.5.

I'd like to take this moment to call out how Tom has not attempted to show us this math.

Quote from: Tumeni
Fine, but the Moon's shadow has no orbital nor angular movement around the Earth. You cannot compare angular speeds of Earth and Moon to arrive at any conclusion about the shadow.
This is correct, but Tom's current complaint has to do with whether the Moon or the Sun is supposed to move faster across our sky. This is why I challenged him to answer those 4 simple questions. This is presumably why markjo was working this math.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2019, 10:03:08 PM »
Quote from: ICanScienceThat
Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that? This is roughly to scale:



At the start of the day as the earth rotates the moon is in the position shown at the bottom and it rises in the East - bottom dotted line.
12 hours later the moon sets in the West. Top dotted line.
Yes, the moon has moved in that time to the top position but in terms of angular velocity the earth rotates much faster than the moon goes around us, so we see it go around the sky. But if there is an eclipse then the absolute speed is a factor in what happens to the shadow. You'll see above I've put an arrow pointing upwards next to the earth. That indicates the earth rotating over a certain period of time. But the moon is going about twice as fast so in the same time the moon travels twice as far - so the arrow on the right is twice as long to indicate how far the moon travels.

Looking at 3 close ups, we get the diagrams I drew before. The moon is at the bottom of the arrow on the right. I can't show that on this scale but it's the same dotted line as in the above.
You are at the bottom of the arrow next to the earth so the shadow is to your west:



Now the moon is in the middle of the arrow on the right and you are in the middle of the arrow next to the earth so now you are in the eclipse:



Now the moon is at the top of the arrow to the right and you are at the top of the arrow next to the earth. So now the shadow is to your east:



So the shadow moves west to east but as you can see from the top diagram, the moon rises in the east and sets in the west.

Scale doesn't solve anything. The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:



Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:49:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2019, 10:09:44 PM »
Quote from: ICanScienceThat
Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

Thank you Tom. Halfway there. That's the answer to 1) and 2).Would you please answer 3) and 4)?

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2019, 10:13:11 PM »
Which motion are you referring to Tom? east-west motion due to Earth rotation or west-east motion due to orbit around the Earth in the case of the Moon or Earth orbit around the Sun in the case of the Sun?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2019, 10:42:08 PM »
You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

Do you agree that whilst the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth, the shadow (which is a straight line cast out from the Moon along the imaginary line connecting Sun and Moon) does not?

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2019, 10:52:22 PM »
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:



Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

The first diagram has the Moon to the West of the Sun, the second shows them in the same spot, and the third shows the Moon East of the Sun. With both moving Westward, that means the Sun is moving Westward faster than the Moon, and the Moon is moving slower Westward.

The original diagrams also show this, all you've added is the direction to Sun, which doesn't show the originals to be wrong, which confirms the actual observation, and which accords with what I wrote above, and in previous posts.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #146 on: May 23, 2019, 10:55:47 PM »
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:



Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #147 on: May 23, 2019, 11:00:56 PM »
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:



Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.

Overtaking in what direction? Overtaking it east-to-west? Overtaking it west-to-east? As the Moon passes in front of the Sun, which side should it enter from? Which side should it exit?

That's why I asked you to answer the 4 simple questions. Please answer the questions.


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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #148 on: May 23, 2019, 11:04:57 PM »
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:



Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.

No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.
The middle one has both in the same direction
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #149 on: May 23, 2019, 11:13:05 PM »
I asked you earlier, Tom - in what way would you LIKE to see it diagrammed?

What would help you the most? From observer POV on Earth? Top down? Side on? From the POV of the Sun?

I can do any of them, or all. Which would help you understand?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2019, 11:14:03 PM »

Quote from: Tumeni
No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The middle one has both in the same direction

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?

What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun. Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer in your diagram, the only way that the Moon could surpass the Sun starting from one side to the other, is if it were traveling faster than it to the observer.

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 01:01:13 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2019, 11:19:09 PM »
What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun. The Moon starts on the West side of the Sun and ends up on the East side of it.

Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer, the only way the Moon can start on the West side of the Sun and end up on the East side of the Sun is if the Moon were traveling faster than the Sun.

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. The geometry does not work. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.

Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2019, 11:30:06 PM »
Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.

Why should that matter? If you are curious about that then you should watch the video and find that out yourself. It doesn't matter how fast everything is moving. We see the Moon moving slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it. Any diagram depicting the Moon moving faster than the Sun to an observer and overtaking it is in error.

Please proceed to whine and call me a troll, and leave the discussion, because I didn't watch a video and report what someone did with their legos as you demanded.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 11:44:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #153 on: May 23, 2019, 11:52:02 PM »

Quote from: Tumeni
No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The middle one has both in the same direction

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?

What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun.

- - -  No, I did not.

Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer in your diagram, the only way that the Moon could surpass the Sun starting from one side to the other, is if it were traveling faster than it to the observer.

- - but you just agreed the Sun moved westward quicker than the Moon, so the Sun is moving faster across the sky...

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. A simple 1, 2, 3. The geometry does not work. And if you do get it to work, the position of the shadow for what you need in this scenario does not. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.

I've done multiple diagrams already, please review my previous posts, including those where I put specific questions to you which went unanswered.   i've now asked you TWICE - in which way would you like it diagrammed to help you the most?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2019, 11:57:00 PM »
Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.

Why should that matter? If you are curious about that then you should watch the video and find that out yourself. It doesn't matter how fast everything is moving. We see the Moon moving slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it. Any diagram depicting the Moon moving faster than the Sun to an observer and overtaking it is in error.

Please proceed to whine and call me a troll, and leave the discussion, because I didn't watch a video and report what someone did with their legos as you demanded.

This isn't a discussion. That's just it. Every single poster who has posted in this thread has understood this just fine with one exception. That one exception CLAIMS he cannot understand it. Many different diagrams were drawn. The geometry was explained several different ways. Yet still he claims it's wrong. One of those explanations was a physical mock-up of the situation made to scale. Yet STILL this one person still claims it was wrong. He repeats over and over that it's wrong, but he flatly refuses to back that up.

You aren't discussing anything. You are simply denying.

The video CLEARLY shows the Moon being moved in perfect accordance to what we observe. It CLEARLY shows the shadow moving as we observe. If there's anything wrong with that video, the burden now falls to you to show how it is incorrect. The fact that you refuse to answer the questions tells us all that you KNOW this. A genuine person should have no issue answering a few simple questions. The only reason you refuse to answer is because you understand exactly what those answers indicate. They indicate that your position is incorrect.

Let me say it once more. If you REALLY think there's something wrong with that video, you should answer the questions because those answers will prove you right, and we'll all have to concede that Tom was right!

But you won't. Why is that? I'll tell you why. Because you've already worked out the implications of those answers. This indicates that you aren't being genuine with us.

Call that what you like. I call it trolling.

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #155 on: May 24, 2019, 06:39:54 AM »
Lots of discussions/arguments/disputes about diagrams and videos. As usual it is Tom against the rest.

I have telescopes equipped with cameras and a very accurate mount. I am not talking about 'off the shelf' cameras. I am taking about a CCD camera which is specifically designed for astronomical photography.  The mount is also specifically designed for astroimaging.

I can set that mount to track at sidereal rate (on the stars), lunar rate and solar rate. If I take an image of a star field with the mount set to sidereal rate, not surprisingly I get pinpoint stars over several minutes exposure time. If my mount were not tracking the stars at precisely the right rate, the stars would trail out into little lines rather than being nice pinpoints. So when I taken images of the Moon or the Sun I have to set the mount to either lunar or solar rate in order to prevent the Moon or Sun drifting out of view.

So is it not reasonable that if I were to take an image of a star field three times with the mount set to sidereal rate, then lunar rate and then solar rate over say 5 minutes and then measure the length of the star trails in the solar and lunar rate images, I will be able to verify whether the telescope is tracking faster when set at lunar or solar rate? I will then attach the images for all to see. The mount knows what time of year it is and what time of day (or night) it is so any variations in lunar and solar rate are automatically accounted for.

To me that is pretty good evidence. I don't know how the rest of you feel.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:43:51 AM by tellytubby »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #156 on: May 24, 2019, 07:45:44 AM »
Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
Right. I think I've understood your confusion and I'll admit it's a bit counter-intuitive.
The moon does indeed move slower in the sky than the sun for the reason shown in my diagram. The moon is orbiting the earth in the same direction that the earth rotates so that motion reduces the net angular speed we observe of the moon.
Maybe these diagrams will help. The semi-circle represents the sun and moon's path across the sky. The key thing to understand is that the moon starts to the right or the west of the sun. During an eclipse the sun catches up with the moon and over-takes it.
Edit: I just realised I pasted the "sun" over the moon so when they overlap the sun is in front, in real life it's actually behind of course! Lazy of me. But it demonstrates the principle so I can't be bothered changing it now!



So it's actually the sun which races past behind the moon BUT if you are fixed on the sun then it looks like it's the moon which is going across the sun's path.
It's a bit complicated because we're talking about relative motion but if you think about it you should understand what's going on.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 08:00:55 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #157 on: May 24, 2019, 08:16:36 AM »
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #158 on: May 24, 2019, 08:28:38 AM »
Lots of discussions/arguments/disputes about diagrams and videos. As usual it is Tom against the rest.

I have telescopes equipped with cameras and a very accurate mount. I am not talking about 'off the shelf' cameras. I am taking about a CCD camera which is specifically designed for astronomical photography.  The mount is also specifically designed for astroimaging.

I can set that mount to track at sidereal rate (on the stars), lunar rate and solar rate. If I take an image of a star field with the mount set to sidereal rate, not surprisingly I get pinpoint stars over several minutes exposure time. If my mount were not tracking the stars at precisely the right rate, the stars would trail out into little lines rather than being nice pinpoints. So when I taken images of the Moon or the Sun I have to set the mount to either lunar or solar rate in order to prevent the Moon or Sun drifting out of view.

So is it not reasonable that if I were to take an image of a star field three times with the mount set to sidereal rate, then lunar rate and then solar rate over say 5 minutes and then measure the length of the star trails in the solar and lunar rate images, I will be able to verify whether the telescope is tracking faster when set at lunar or solar rate? I will then attach the images for all to see. The mount knows what time of year it is and what time of day (or night) it is so any variations in lunar and solar rate are automatically accounted for.

To me that is pretty good evidence. I don't know how the rest of you feel.

To be honest, I think the discussion has moved beyond this point. I think everyone (including Tom) now seems to be willing to accept that the moon moves across the sky from east to west at around 14.5 deg/hour and the sun does the same, but faster at almost exactly 15 deg/hour, which means of course that the sun catches up and overtakes the moon during an eclipse.

What's confusing me now is exactly what Tom's problem is. I'm not sure if he's conceded the point that the sun overtaking the moon (and therefore the moon travelling across the sun's disk from west to east) implies the shadow will move west to east, or whether he's somehow disputing that. He does seem to be claiming that some (all?) of the diagrams offered showing exactly this seem to be showing the opposite - don't understand that either. It would be good to get some clarity from him as to what he accepts and what he doesn't.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #159 on: May 24, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?
Yes, that's pretty much it.
The problem Tom is having is the moon is moving and the earth is rotating and it looks like it's the moon whizzing across the sun.
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.
It's a bit counter-intuitive and you do have to think about it a bit. Hopefully my diagrams will help.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.