Wiki correction: AN/DN
« on: May 17, 2019, 03:16:19 PM »
I'd like to submit a correction to this article, in particular this image:



In this diagram, the Moon's ascending and descending nodes are incorrectly identified. The AN should be on the first quarter and the DN should be on the third quarter.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2019, 04:56:20 PM »
It should also be noted that the nodal precession means that moon phases are not related to the lunar nodes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_precession#Nodal_precession
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2019, 05:18:19 PM »
It seems that it would depend on how we define Descending Node in FET. In RET Descending Node is when New Moon and Solar Eclipse occurs. In FET that would be when the moon is closest to beneath the sun.

We can define it as first and third quarter moon, but then there would be a discrepancy with those other references.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 05:33:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2019, 05:35:45 PM »
It seems that it would depend on how we define Descending Node in FET. Descending Node is when New Moon and Solar Eclipse occurs. In FET it would be when the moon is closest to beneath the sun.
Actually, solar (and lunar) eclipses only happen when the moon is near the ecliptic.  That is unless FET has a different definition for the ecliptic as well.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2019, 06:01:37 PM »
RET depicts the descending node as closest to the sun.





However, according to the following definition, the nodes should be at first and third quarter when the Moon crosses the plane of the sun, as adopted to the image and as stated in the OP.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/descending+node

Quote
Noun   1.   descending node - the point at which an orbit crosses the ecliptic plane going south
node - (astronomy) a point where an orbit crosses a plane
ascending node - the point at which an orbit crosses the ecliptic plane going north

From the observer's view beneath the sun the moon crosses the path of the sun, and the node, during solar eclipse:



The new moon occurs when the moon is somewhere around that vicinity, but not necessarily crossing.

But this observer's view is different than an external side-view from outside the system.

Perhaps the nodes should be defined as being from the observer's view of the crossing of paths?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 06:16:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2019, 07:16:03 PM »
However, according to the following definition, the nodes should be at first and third quarter when the Moon crosses the plane of the sun, as adopted to the image and as stated in the OP.
The nodes of the moon's orbit precess over the course of about 18.6 years, so the new and full phases of the moon do not always occur at the nodes (otherwise there would be solar and lunar eclipses every month).

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/descending+node

Quote
Noun   1.   descending node - the point at which an orbit crosses the ecliptic plane going south
node - (astronomy) a point where an orbit crosses a plane
ascending node - the point at which an orbit crosses the ecliptic plane going north

From the observer's view beneath the sun the moon crosses the path of the sun, and the node, during solar eclipse:



The new moon occurs when the moon is somewhere around that vicinity, but not necessarily crossing.

But this observer's view is different than an external side-view from outside the system.

Perhaps the nodes should be defined as being from the observer's view of the crossing of paths?
I suppose that depends on how strictly you want to define things.  RET strictly defines the phases of the moon to happen at precise moments and under precise conditions, but are more loosely defined in casual conversation.  Mixing strict and casual definitions in conversation can lead to unnecessary confusion.
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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2019, 10:20:59 PM »
Perhaps the nodes should be defined as being from the observer's view of the crossing of paths?
Go ahead, I'm sure the IAU would love to fundamentally redefine one of their most important terms so that a flat-Earther's diagram is correct.
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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2019, 10:22:17 PM »
However, according to the following definition, the nodes should be at first and third quarter when the Moon crosses the plane of the sun, as adopted to the image and as stated in the OP.
The nodes of the moon's orbit precess over the course of about 18.6 years, so the new and full phases of the moon do not always occur at the nodes (otherwise there would be solar and lunar eclipses every month).

The ascending and descending nodes are completely unrelated to the phases of the moon. They only line up twice per year.
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Offline Rounder

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2019, 03:31:12 PM »
RET depicts the descending node as closest to the sun.

In that illustration, yes, but not always.  The line of nodes rotates in relation to the First Point of Aries, precessing westward over a cycle lasting approximately 18.6 years.  Sometimes the descending node is closest to the sun, sometimes the ascending node, and both solar and lunar eclipses happen during the narrow window of either node pointing at the sun.  Odd numbered Saros cycles are descending node eclipses, even Saros cycles are ascending node eclipses.  But for most of the year, neither node lines up with the sun at all.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2019, 08:58:42 PM »
Fair enough, it would probably make more sense to just take out references to the nodes in the illustration until they can be better defined under a FE context.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 09:10:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2019, 07:42:04 PM »
What force makes the FE Moon goes up and down cycle, and never colliding with the Sun?

How do you explain Eclipses of the Moon during full moon?  Another darker shadow object in middle?  If it can cast a shadow over the full moon, and based on the shadow arc angle it is much bigger than the moon, it is not transparent to cast shadow, so it blocks solar light and become illuminated, but we can not see it, it never blocked any patch of stars, is that it?

In your new explanation, the full moon becomes significantly higher than the sun.  Can you post the numbers please, so I can calculate changes in visible and measurable size?

Also, to have a complete orbit every ±28 days, it means the FE moon drags almost 51 minutes per day behind the FE sun, so, during the solar eclipse it would be casting a shadow of itself all over the earth for more than a full day/circle, since it will be aligned within 12°, almost vertical. It means, on FE the solar eclipse shadow would be visible all over the world during more than a complete circle.  That is not what happens on the real world.  RE Solar Eclipses are fast (few hours or less than that) and just over a certain part of the earth.   Care to explain the discrepancy please?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 09:26:09 PM »
What does that have to do with the topic of the nodes?

Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 06:00:27 PM »
What does that have to do with the topic of the nodes?

Nodal lines are directly involved in solar (and lunar) eclipses.  Impossible to discuss one without the other.  Nothing better than eclipses to help calculate and justify the nodal lines.

Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 07:16:51 PM »
What does that have to do with the topic of the nodes?

Nodal lines are directly involved in solar (and lunar) eclipses.  Impossible to discuss one without the other.  Nothing better than eclipses to help calculate and justify the nodal lines.
You can absolutely discuss them separately. Their definitions don't even mention each other.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Wiki correction: AN/DN
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 04:26:39 AM »
What does that have to do with the topic of the nodes?

Nodal lines are directly involved in solar (and lunar) eclipses.  Impossible to discuss one without the other.  Nothing better than eclipses to help calculate and justify the nodal lines.
You can absolutely discuss them separately. Their definitions don't even mention each other.
Since RE solar and lunar eclipses can only ever happen when the moon is at or near a node (the points in space where the moon crosses the ecliptic plane), it isn't unreasonable to discuss both concepts together.

FET would not only need a new definition for the concept of nodes, it would also need a new definition for the ecliptic plane itself.
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