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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 12:36:34 AM »
No, Tom.  On a globe Earth the paths are not perfect arcs because there are two independent movements involved: the Earth's rotation on its axis, and the moon's orbit around the Earth.

Both of those movements are constant, not erratic.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 12:39:36 AM »
No, Tom.  On a globe Earth the paths are not perfect arcs because there are two independent movements involved: the Earth's rotation on its axis, and the moon's orbit around the Earth.

Both of those movements are constant, not erratic.

....and produce a path like a hill.

Here's a link to a nice hill-type eclipse path with an animation in the middle of the page.  See "3D Eclipse Animation"

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

Sorry Tom.  You're wrong.  I know you'll never admit it despite the evidence presented, but it's there.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 12:42:26 AM »
....and produce a path like a hill.

Based on your evidence of absolutely nothing?

Quote
Here's a link to a nice hill-type eclipse path with an animation in the middle of the page.  See "3D Eclipse Animation"

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

That's not a geometric model of the Sun-Earth-Moon system.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 12:58:49 AM »
....and produce a path like a hill.

Based on your evidence of absolutely nothing?

Quote
Here's a link to a nice hill-type eclipse path with an animation in the middle of the page.  See "3D Eclipse Animation"

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

That's not a geometric model of the Sun-Earth-Moon system.

Considering that I believe the Earth is a globe, that website which I linked contains accurate paths of past eclipses, and paths of future eclipses.  I've witnessed a number of eclipses which have crossed my path in the past and have matched to the minute the times and locations stated on the site.  That is evidence.

As to the 3D animation, I'm glad you can see the obvious.  It's not a geometric model of the Sun-Earth-Moon system.  It's an animation of the Earth, and the path the eclipse takes.  And look, it's a wavy line.  It's okay, Tom.
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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 01:14:17 AM »
Austrian astronomer Theodor von Oppolzer worked it out using a FE map and the Saros Cycle. See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Solar_Eclipse

The paths make perfect arcs, unlike the Round Earth model.
The 2017 total solar eclipse is not a perfect arc. And most eclipses you look at aren't perfect arcs either. Look at future eclipses around the poles (well... North Pole) and you'll notice that it they aren't perfect arcs. The future eclipse spherical showed wasn't a perfect arc either. It was in the shape of a hill.

What are you talking about? On Flat Earth maps the paths are perfect arcs. They are distorted on other types of maps because they are not correct.

Here is Oppolzer's map for 2010-2028. The 2017 eclipse is a perfect arc on this map.


I was talking about the globe model.
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Offline stack

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2019, 05:04:11 AM »
Seemingly the wiki and FE cannot demonstrate how the Total Solar Eclipse of July 2nd 2019 is predicted specifically under FE map and conditions. So I guess that's that.

Austrian astronomer Theodor von Oppolzer worked it out using a FE map and the Saros Cycle. See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Solar_Eclipse

The paths make perfect arcs, unlike the Round Earth model.

Are you that desperate to disingenuously claim that Theodor von Oppolzer worked it out using an FE map?

What about the other hemisphere of the FE Map he worked out? It's called a globe.

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 07:24:52 AM »
That's not a geometric model of the Sun-Earth-Moon system.

Define what a geometric model would be in this case, then.
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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 07:35:40 AM »
OK, so does the path shown on the Oppolzer map (centred on the North Pole) correspond to the path shown when centred on the point of maximum eclipse?

http://eclipsewise.com/oh/oh-figures/ec2017-Fig04.pdf

Discuss.

Surely, if I walk in a circle on level ground, my path will look different depending on whether you look at it from above, or from on the ground, to the side of it ....

And, to go back to the first page, it's not a perfect arc when viewed from above the point of max, because the Moon's trajectory is not aligned perfectly with Earth's orbital path, and the rotation of the Earth is not aligned perfectly with the Moon's path. This should be self-evident from my link above.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:42:41 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 08:09:44 AM »
No, Tom.  On a globe Earth the paths are not perfect arcs because there are two independent movements involved: the Earth's rotation on its axis, and the moon's orbit around the Earth.

Both of those movements are constant, not erratic.

.. but they're not aligned with each other. And the surface of the Earth under the shadow, were the Earth to remain stationary, would describe a partial semi-circle, aligned with the Moon's movement.
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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2019, 11:05:42 AM »
A question regarding Oppolzer's map, Tom. Is this the flat earth map you believe is accurate in the layout and size of its land masses?  You are referencing his map for these paths as being accurate for a flat earth.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2019, 11:08:23 AM »
Seemingly the wiki and FE cannot demonstrate how the Total Solar Eclipse of July 2nd 2019 is predicted specifically under FE map and conditions. So I guess that's that.

Austrian astronomer Theodor von Oppolzer worked it out using a FE map and the Saros Cycle. See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Solar_Eclipse

The paths make perfect arcs, unlike the Round Earth model.

Are you that desperate to disingenuously claim that Theodor von Oppolzer worked it out using an FE map?

What about the other hemisphere of the FE Map he worked out? It's called a globe.



Did you compare the two maps?

Those arcs in those paths are more distorted than the Northern map. It appears that you did not think about your argument very much.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 11:23:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2019, 11:20:23 AM »
That is not a flat earth map. That is a representation of the earth on a map that only shows "...the earth north of the south temperate zone."

And as also shown by Stack, Oppolzer created a second map representing the earth south of the south temperate zone.  Both are merely projections. Give it up, Tom. You and the Wiki entry are presenting a falsehood of someone else's work.

Also, the text that the Wiki cites that cites Oppolzer believes the earth is round. Just read the rest of the text. Oppolzer was not a flat earther. His map is not a map of a flat earth. It is a projection of a section of a round earth.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2019, 11:24:11 AM »
And as also shown by Stack, Oppolzer created a second map representing the earth south of the south temperate zone.

And the paths are perfect arcs in one map, and are distorted in the other.

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Oppolzer was not a flat earther.

No one ever said that he was.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2019, 11:27:08 AM »
Thats besides the point. Its not a map of a flat earth! Therefore you cannot claim anything about it being true for a flat earth - just because you like the paths to be in perfect arcs, does not make an argument true for the earth being flat.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2019, 11:49:11 AM »
Okay. Tell us why the Northern centered map has the eclipses in perfect arcs, as opposed to the globe map or any projection layout.

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2019, 12:01:33 PM »
Okay. Tell us why the Northern centered map has the eclipses in perfect arcs, as opposed to the globe map or any projection layout.

Tell us why you would accept any FE idea that is using a map when you have said numerous times that no FE map exists?  Surely you must be skeptical of this model since you freely admit that distances between locations on Earth are unknown?  It would be a remarkable coincidence that this produced perfect arcs, as you say, by accident.
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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2019, 12:19:46 PM »
Because its a different projection? If I made it a different shape of a map, I would get a different plot of the path.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2019, 02:21:24 PM »
Because its a different projection? If I made it a different shape of a map, I would get a different plot of the path.

Who are you talking to?
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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2019, 02:23:23 PM »
Okay. Tell us why the Northern centered map has the eclipses in perfect arcs, as opposed to the globe map or any projection layout.


Sorry, missed the quote reference. My comment was in response to Tom.
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Re: Total Eclipse July 02 2019
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2019, 04:49:41 PM »
Wow... the Oppolzer northern hemisphere 1900-1918 eclipses map posted on FE wiki Eclipses, as a reference to promote FE, had a hidden twin map for the South Pole (Antarctic continent) as center.  That is fantastic.  So, FE now improved, it is double-sided.  See how Australia's shape is more real. I wonder which way UA pushes it.   

Calculating here how Sun and Moon, both at 4800km altitude and 48km in diameter could promote the strange total eclipse path on  11/13/2012, changing more than 30° of latitude in a matter of few hours, considering only a small 12° of circling difference (longitude) between Sun and Moon in 24 hours See, same altitude, can only promote a straight down vertical shadow, total or partial, never angled.    July/22/2028 will have more than 40 degrees of latitude change.  FE behavior is amazing.  Someone may say the Moon is way down below the Sun, with a chaotic circling path (we don't observe that in the real world), but both Sun and Moon being 48km in diameter the projected umbra shadow will never be wider then 48km, the minimum noted all times was never smaller than 120km. 

A lot of things don't add up. FErs scientists and high knowledge specialists need urgent to define and post the right numbers.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 05:04:37 PM by spherical »