Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« on: April 30, 2019, 03:09:11 AM »
I was browsing through the WIKI and saw this quote:

Evidence for the Conspiracy
"All government agencies lie part of the time, but NASA is the only one I've ever encountered that does so routinely."
     â€”George A. Keyworth, Science Advisor to President Regan in testimony before Congress, March 14, 1985


Source is mentioned as testimony before Congress, March 14, 1985, but I can't find any public records. There was one in February 1985 ( https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED257667.pdf ) where NASA was a topic. But the controversy was about NASA funding (the Reagan gov. seemed not so interested in manned space travel) and not about any science related issue.

IMHO it would make sense to add a source, or if it's really just funding related just remove the quote as it would then be out of context.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 08:07:38 AM by flachland »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quite source needed
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 05:21:16 AM »
If Congress is not maintaining their records proplerly you should complain to your congressman, not us.

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Offline stack

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quite source needed
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 06:16:59 AM »
If Congress is not maintaining their records proplerly you should complain to your congressman, not us.

The only reference I could find to the quote was here: http://www.enterprisemission.com/expect.htm. If there's no record of it to be found from the source, I'm not sure it's quotable.

I did find that Keyworth definitely sparred with NASA over funding and direction. He was a big proponent of going back to the moon and establishing a base as a launching point for deeper space exploration as opposed to then NASA leadership that wanted a LEO space station. He was a big Apollo fan as he liked the very purpose driven nature of the effort. He was also a big proponent of the shuttle program though he wanted the Air Force to own it, not NASA, hence maybe the quote.  He was also a big proponent of Reagan's 'Star Wars' missile defense strategy.

In essence, if he actually said the quote, it was most likely a money allocation thing and not a conspiracy thing as he seemed to be a big space guy for past, present, and future space endeavors.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Wiki: Keyworth quite source needed
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 10:32:12 AM »
If Congress is not maintaining their records proplerly you should complain to your congressman, not us.

The point of a WIKI is to have all the facts at your fingertips. If you have no source, and the information is dubious, then just remove it.

In this case it either looks like it's either plain wrong, or gravely out of context.

Re: Wiki: Keyworth quite source needed
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 11:09:14 AM »
If Congress is not maintaining their records proplerly you should complain to your congressman, not us.
That's a really weak response.
What is your source for that quote? All the references I can find for it are either here or other people quoting it in various other conspiracy theory contexts, none of which provide a source.
Unless you have an actual source for that quote or some evidence he even said it then it should be removed.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:10:48 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 11:12:34 AM »
Here is the original story, from which many sources do not quote from and extremely misuse.

"Beggs was convinced that a successful shuttle would build congressional and public support for the space station. He pressured his managers to make the shuttle a viable commercial rocket system as quickly as possible by vastly expanding its schedule. And he arranged to make a personal pitch to the President--with neither the knowledge nor the approval of Meese or Keyworth.

By the end of the meeting, the President was favorably disposed. And by the end of the year, Beggs was informed that $150 million was included in the fiscal 1985 budget for a space station. In his unpublished memoirs, Beggs' deputy, Hans Mark, wrote that Beggs "would be remembered . . . as one of the NASA administrators who had succeeded in persuading a President to do something brand new." But among Administration conservatives, Beggs would be remembered as the man who had humiliated them on the space station. That lingering bitterness would have dramatic consequences for both the shuttle program and for Beggs.

"Of all the organizations that I have dealt with . . . I have only seen one that lied. It was NASA," science adviser Keyworth says today. "The reason they lie, of course, is because they are wrapped up in a higher calling. In their eyes these are white lies. They tell lies in order to do what has to be done. Because in the end the result will be for the betterment of the public. So they are not lying from evil. But, nevertheless, they are lying."

AN OLD-LINE REPUBLICAN, BEGGS considered people like Keyworth and other hard-line Administration conservatives "right-wing nuts" who had no influence with the President. It was a crucial mistake."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-18-tm-5326-story.html

It was pulled from these sources:

Adapted from "Prescription for Disaster: From the Glory of Apollo to the Betrayal of the Shuttle," by Joseph J. Trento with reporting and editing by Susan B. Trento. To be published in February by Crown Publishers Inc. Copyright 1987 by Joseph J. Trento.

So , this isn't about a conspiracy on actual space travel or covering up the true shape of the earth. Its about them trying to fund the space station by lying about their build schedule.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:20:36 AM by WellRoundedIndividual »
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2019, 12:14:40 AM »
The 1987 latimes article is talking mostly about the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. The Keyworth quote is from 1985 and appears to be unrelated.

It should be possible to find the House Congressional Record from March 14th, 1985.

I like this quote too:

"Of all the organizations that I have dealt with . . . I have only seen one that lied. It was NASA," science adviser Keyworth says today. "The reason they lie, of course, is because they are wrapped up in a higher calling. In their eyes these are white lies. They tell lies in order to do what has to be done. Because in the end the result will be for the betterment of the public. So they are not lying from evil. But, nevertheless, they are lying."

NASA "tells lies" all the time "in order to do what has to be done"... "for the betterment of the public." I see.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 12:36:20 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2019, 12:30:08 AM »
The 1987 latimes article is talking mostly about the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. The Keyworth quote is from 1985 and appears to be unrelated. It should be possible to find the House Congressional Record from March 14th, 1985.

I like this quote:

"Of all the organizations that I have dealt with . . . I have only seen one that lied. It was NASA," science adviser Keyworth says today. "The reason they lie, of course, is because they are wrapped up in a higher calling. In their eyes these are white lies. They tell lies in order to do what has to be done. Because in the end the result will be for the betterment of the public. So they are not lying from evil. But, nevertheless, they are lying."

NASA lies left and right all the time "to do what has to be done"... "for the betterment of the public." I see.

It's a solid quote, but it would be disingenuous including it without context. Like I wrote before, George Keyworth was a big proponent of going back to the moon and establishing a base as a launching point for deeper space exploration as opposed to then NASA leadership that wanted a LEO space station. He was a big Apollo fan as he liked the very purpose driven nature of the effort. He was also a big proponent of the shuttle program though he wanted the Air Force to own it, not NASA, hence maybe the quote.  He was also a big proponent of Reagan's 'Star Wars' missile defense strategy.

In other words, his lying NASA had nothing to do with moon landings and space travel, he actually wanted more of the same. His big beef seemed to be the allocation of budgetary funds for NASA, as in what efforts should receive $ and which should not. It's not, "I have only seen one that lied. It was NASA...(They lie about the true shape of the earth...)".

However much you like the quote as it fits your narrative when cherry picked doesn't make it appropriate to include when it comes from an individual that believed in moon landings and space travel.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2019, 12:24:29 AM »
How does Keyworth's beliefs that the earth is a globe or that space travel has occurred invalidate his statements that it is his experience that NASA lies all the time?

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2019, 11:23:03 AM »
Nothing in that quote quantifies the amount of what they is a lie. Nothing in that quote specifically refers to them lying about space travel. Stop making stuff up, Tom.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Wiki: Keyworth quote source needed
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2019, 01:37:43 PM »
How does Keyworth's beliefs that the earth is a globe or that space travel has occurred invalidate his statements that it is his experience that NASA lies all the time?

Wow, are you being intentionally obtuse Tom? Have you ever heard of context? Did you even read what stack wrote? stack and WRI have shown that he was probably talking about the budget and have provided evidence. Until you can show that the context of Keyworth's quote was within the realm of faking space travel, it would be deceptive to leave the quote on the evidence for the conspiracy page to mislead readers into thinking that was what Keyworth was talking about.
We are smarter than those scientists.
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.