Offline Davis86

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Need clarification (time zones)
« on: March 18, 2019, 06:37:19 AM »
Hello FE-Community,

I've been suspicious for quite a while and lately I stumbled on the FE theory and it caught my interest. I've already read most topics of the wiki, but there is a point where I need your help.
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.
Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 06:46:47 AM »
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible.

Also note in those models the stars are nearly always further away, possibly projected onto a dome, but for some reason the light from those travels longer distances through the same air.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:49:29 AM by Balls Dingo »

SeaCritique

Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2019, 12:36:58 PM »
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.

It sounds, at least to me, like you got it right. (The vanishing point is also discussed extensively.)

Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

Honestly, and excuse my confusion, but you'll have to explain this in further detail. I'm not very familiar with time zones, and I'm having trouble understanding your point.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 12:42:15 PM by SeaCritique »

Offline jimster

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2019, 05:51:32 PM »
At night, I can see the stars over the entire sky. If the sun is still up there on the dome, why can't I see it? If the sun is still up there, why do I not see the beam shining down in the distance reflected of the dust in the atmosphere, like a spotlight beam? Why does whatever is blocking my vision of sunlight and sun block my vision of stars? How can the dome be filled with stars while the sun is Timestill up there and I see stars right through it, or it isn't up there?

Time zones would be pie shaped on a polar projection map.

FEs do not understand perspective and vanishing point. The words "vanishing point" holds great promise for FE explanations, but it is a artistic technique for making 3d objects look right in a 2d image. Google it.

As for limiting the distance you can see, everyone can see stars over the entire dome everywhere. This means you can see from one edge of the dome to the other. If you can see stars everywhere, you could see the sun everywhere.



Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2019, 10:18:50 PM »
Well, what if the sun isn’t actually round and the bright round thing in the sky is just the brightest part.  Could something then funnel the light into straight lines, creating a rectangle of day and thus, the time zones we see today.

Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2019, 10:59:41 PM »
Well, what if the sun isn’t actually round and the bright round thing in the sky is just the brightest part.  Could something then funnel the light into straight lines, creating a rectangle of day and thus, the time zones we see today.

Thank you for the suggestion,

I thought about it. If the sun was a spotlight coming from the dome (I think you mean that? Otherwise please clarify) then what is your view on sunrise/sunset? Because I can't use one explanation in the first topic and another on the second. The explanation has to work for both.
So for any future replies, please address both aspects of time zone shape and sunrise/sunset if you post a different explanation.

As for the replies that rather start a new conversation and do not contribute to the discussion: Please address the issue I posted.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 11:07:22 PM by Davis86 »

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Offline QED

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 01:47:08 AM »
Hello FE-Community,

I've been suspicious for quite a while and lately I stumbled on the FE theory and it caught my interest. I've already read most topics of the wiki, but there is a point where I need your help.
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.
Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

Hi Davies,

This is a bit of an odd question to me. It’s kind of like asking why we use a decimal system. The answer is: to make things easy for us.

The time zones are perfect straight lines, not because the sun marks the exact time everywhere along the boundaries, but because it makes sense to approximate them with straight lines (rather than showing the curvature at the ends). Otherwise, folks due south of you would soon be in a different time zone, without the sun having a radically different angle than originally.

In other words, the time zones are a simplification for humans. Just look on a globe at the time zones in French Polynesia. To make it easier some of them zig-zag back and forth to include/exclude islands near the border. You don’t really think the sunlight zigzags like that do you? So why would you think the sun makes perfectly straight lines?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 02:29:17 AM »
I know that the time zones are just convenience. I mean the actual time of sunrise and sunset. To give an example:
Bratislava (in Europe) is about the same longitude as Bangui (Central Africa). But the difference in latitude is 44°, Bangui is near the equator. Also important to note is that neither city is on a mountain. Still, they are only 7 minutes apart on sunrise and sunset. I currently can't comprehend why that is.

Also, I agree that agencies (especially NASA) can make up stories about science and space travel. But it seems hard to me to lie about time of sunrise, since everyone can see that with their own eyes.

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Offline QED

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 10:37:46 AM »
I know that the time zones are just convenience. I mean the actual time of sunrise and sunset. To give an example:
Bratislava (in Europe) is about the same longitude as Bangui (Central Africa). But the difference in latitude is 44°, Bangui is near the equator. Also important to note is that neither city is on a mountain. Still, they are only 7 minutes apart on sunrise and sunset. I currently can't comprehend why that is.

Also, I agree that agencies (especially NASA) can make up stories about science and space travel. But it seems hard to me to lie about time of sunrise, since everyone can see that with their own eyes.

How do you know this? I find it hard to believe that you are witnessing a 7 minute difference with your own eyes.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2019, 12:49:11 PM »
I know that the time zones are just convenience. I mean the actual time of sunrise and sunset. To give an example:
Bratislava (in Europe) is about the same longitude as Bangui (Central Africa). But the difference in latitude is 44°, Bangui is near the equator. Also important to note is that neither city is on a mountain. Still, they are only 7 minutes apart on sunrise and sunset. I currently can't comprehend why that is.

Also, I agree that agencies (especially NASA) can make up stories about science and space travel. But it seems hard to me to lie about time of sunrise, since everyone can see that with their own eyes.

How do you know this? I find it hard to believe that you are witnessing a 7 minute difference with your own eyes.

It is true that I can't confirm it alone, but people living in the respective regions can. And for the claim, that the website gives different times depending on your position, I just called a friend overseas and he sees the exact same. I just meant that confirming/debunking these values is very easy as I just did that for myself. Also, I know that I can trust my friend on this.

Curvature for example is very hard to check with your own eyes because it requires a huge setup. Checking when the sun rises is easy. When I heard about FE I questioned basically everything from the ground on and 95% make sense to me. Believing in a system that does not make 100% sense to me is hard, although it's better than GE... I still wonder how time zones fit in the puzzle  ???

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Offline QED

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 03:56:03 PM »
I would disagree that measuring curvature requires a huge set up.

You are confusing time zones with actual time. Your friend looks at his watch and it agrees with the time zone he is in. Obviously.

Two people 5 meters apart on either side of a boundary disagree by an hour. Do you think the Sun reflects this difference. Like I said, it is a convention.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2019, 04:55:08 PM »
Again, when I talk about time zones in this thread, I refer to areas with the same moment of sunrise and sunset, not the human convention. And I asked my friend what values he saw on timeanddate.com, where I got my values for the Bangui/Bratislava example...

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Offline QED

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2019, 05:41:58 PM »
Again, when I talk about time zones in this thread, I refer to areas with the same moment of sunrise and sunset, not the human convention. And I asked my friend what values he saw on timeanddate.com, where I got my values for the Bangui/Bratislava example...

Huh, interesting. Well, when I talk to my friend who lives in Alaska, he goes for over 24 hours with no sunrise. Despite being in a time zone. So what’s your point?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2019, 07:13:54 PM »
Hello FE-Community,

I've been suspicious for quite a while and lately I stumbled on the FE theory and it caught my interest. I've already read most topics of the wiki, but there is a point where I need your help.
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.
Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

You are talking about a very specific flat earth model in which the earth is shaped like a flat disk.

Here is a different model of the earth, in which the earth is represented as a flat plane. This map is widely accepted by people who believe the earth is round. The time zones shown on this map should do much better to match your personal time zone observations.


https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 04:29:42 AM »
Hello FE-Community,

I've been suspicious for quite a while and lately I stumbled on the FE theory and it caught my interest. I've already read most topics of the wiki, but there is a point where I need your help.
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.
Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

You are talking about a very specific flat earth model in which the earth is shaped like a flat disk.

Here is a different model of the earth, in which the earth is represented as a flat plane. This map is widely accepted by people who believe the earth is round. The time zones shown on this map should do much better to match your personal time zone observations.


https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

Sorry, I already flew across the pacific ocean, also I don't see how that map would be any better...

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 06:02:49 PM »
Hello FE-Community,

I've been suspicious for quite a while and lately I stumbled on the FE theory and it caught my interest. I've already read most topics of the wiki, but there is a point where I need your help.
In the model of sunset it is described, that after the sun rays travel through a certain amount of air it stops being visible. Based on this explanation I conclude that the sun has some sort of circle on the map, where it can be seen.
So far it makes sense to me, but feel free to correct me in case I got that wrong.
Now, with the orbit of the sun I would expect the time zones (based on sunrise/sunset) to be shaped like the edge of a circle, not straight.

This detail currently is in conflict with what I believe to be true. Again, I am very new to this community and I hope that some of you can help me understand this issue :)

You are talking about a very specific flat earth model in which the earth is shaped like a flat disk.

Here is a different model of the earth, in which the earth is represented as a flat plane. This map is widely accepted by people who believe the earth is round. The time zones shown on this map should do much better to match your personal time zone observations.


https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

Sorry, I already flew across the pacific ocean, also I don't see how that map would be any better...

First off the time zones that you flew across are predicted by this map are they no?

Second off this map predicts that if you start in the united states in California and fly west you will arrive in Asia. Does this at all match what you experienced on your flight?

Offline Davis86

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 07:03:36 PM »
Yes that matched my experience... But you told me it is a flat plane, so I can't just teleport from the left side of the map to the right. The map predicts that because it is a 2D representation of the GE world view. Sometimes I wonder what you are trying to tell me  :-\

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 07:55:45 PM »
Yes that matched my experience... But you told me it is a flat plane, so I can't just teleport from the left side of the map to the right. The map predicts that because it is a 2D representation of the GE world view. Sometimes I wonder what you are trying to tell me  :-\

One thing that you will have to understand is that there are many models which depict the earth as a "flat" surface. There are pros and cons to all the different models.


The earth modeled as a circular disk with the north pole in the middle has a very hard time with things like time zones, flight times/distances, driving times/distances, shipping times/distances, time zones and some aspects of lunar cycles.
 





The earth can also be modeled as a interactive repeating plane. (much like a sphere could be considered a flat plane that curves in upon itself) Notice how i'm not linking you www.flatearthmodels.com I'm linking to you known and verified maps of the earth used by hundreds of thousands of people every day.

https://www.mapquest.com/
https://maps.yahoo.com/
http://suncalc.net


These models do much better with things like time zones, flight times/distances, driving times/distances, shipping times/distances, and time zones


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Offline stack

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 08:06:18 PM »
Yes that matched my experience... But you told me it is a flat plane, so I can't just teleport from the left side of the map to the right. The map predicts that because it is a 2D representation of the GE world view. Sometimes I wonder what you are trying to tell me  :-\

One thing that you will have to understand is that there are many models which depict the earth as a "flat" surface. There are pros and cons to all the different models.


The earth modeled as a circular disk with the north pole in the middle has a very hard time with things like time zones, flight times/distances, driving times/distances, shipping times/distances, time zones and some aspects of lunar cycles.
 





The earth can also be modeled as a interactive repeating plane. (much like a sphere could be considered a flat plane that curves in upon itself) Notice how i'm not linking you www.flatearthmodels.com I'm linking to you known and verified maps of the earth used by hundreds of thousands of people every day.

https://www.mapquest.com/
https://maps.yahoo.com/
http://suncalc.net


These models do much better with things like time zones, flight times/distances, driving times/distances, shipping times/distances, and time zones

The problem with the infinite repeating model is the repeating part. Are there multiples of the same continent, country, city? Multiple repeating versions of me? I never could wrap my head around this model.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Need clarification (time zones)
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2019, 10:05:09 PM »

The problem with the infinite repeating model is the repeating part. Are there multiples of the same continent, country, city? Multiple repeating versions of me? I never could wrap my head around this model.

In the repeating flat plane model: you started on the west coast of America and travel west. You cross the pacific ocean then hit Asia. You cross Asia into Europe. You leave the shores of Europe to cross the Atlantic ocean and hit the east coast of America. Cross America and you are back to the west coast of America. Is this the same West coast of America that you started at or a different one? You could repeat this trip an infinite number of times. Are there an infinite number of western america coastlines to depart from and arrive to?


In the round earth model: you started on the west coast of America and travel west. You cross the pacific ocean then hit Asia. You cross Asia into Europe. You leave the shores of Europe to cross the Atlantic ocean and hit the east coast of America. Cross America and you are back to the west coast of America. Is this the same West coast of America that you started at or a different one? You could repeat this trip an infinite number of times. Are there an infinite number of western america coastlines to depart from and arrive to?


Do you notice how they are literally the EXACT same? If you believe the earth is round how could this model be in any way confusing to you?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:07:20 PM by iamcpc »