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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2019, 10:06:53 PM »
The experiment outlined in the OP was first done to show earth's size ASSUMING it is round.
No, it assumes a distant sun.
And you keep saying they needed to take the measurements at different times, that is you just not understanding the experiment that was done.
As has been pointed out, a local sun and a flat earth is a possible alternative explanation for the result - although that is you making an assumption about the shape of the earth - but if you do this experiment at 3 points then you'd expect different results on a FE or a Globe:

https://flatearth.ws/eratosthenes
Erastosthenes used two sticks and that's the experiment he failed to recreate in the video. If you read above I already picked out another assumption was distance to the sun.

What we can agree on is that this man has not proved the earth to be round and so Flat Earth gets to jog along for another day.
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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2019, 10:38:35 PM »
He didn't exactly recreate the original experiment but his version is equally valid and gives the same result.
The version this dude did wouldn't have been possible at the time of the original experiment because it would have been difficult to synchronise over long distances.
But I agree this result doesn't by itself prove the earth is a globe, but the alternative explanation requires a close sun which is problematic for other reasons.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2019, 06:24:24 AM »
Well then all you end up with is an argument about whether the road is flat or curved with the shape of the earth ... you are no further forward.

I'm not sure why this is hard for you. The experiment outlined in the OP was first done to show earth's size ASSUMING it is round. It is not to decide what shape earth is. To add insult to injury the guy makes the fundamental mistake of taking the exact same time instead of waiting for the sun to be in the same relative point of the sky for both sticks (local noon). In other words its the wrong experiment and he performs it wrong as well. Double bad-science.

I'm not defending the experiment. He botched it. His experiment to measure the circumference of the Earth failed. But he actually did prove the Earth was not flat during the experiment! That is the point I'm trying to make.

He thought the shadows were going to go down the middle of the bases of both sundials at the same time because they were both parallel to a straight road. They didn't. You see it in the video. You've admitted that that is what happened. You've been quite clear that they won't in the experiment as designed. But there's no flat Earth explanation for this. The shadows absolutely should go down the middle of the bases of both sundials at the same time on a flat Earth. Ergo, the Earth is not flat.

What I've proposed is a different, simpler experiment requiring only two mobile phones and two sticks next to that road to prove the Earth is not flat. I've not proposed a different experiment to measure the circumference of the Earth. My apologies for not being clear on this but I though it was obvious from the description of my experiment.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:27:51 AM by Balls Dingo »

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2019, 02:00:00 PM »
???

But he aligns the sundials with MAGNETIC north. That's the offset. Magnetic north is not some point in the infinite distance. It is a place on earth. If I point my sundial in London to the same place as you point yours in California ... are those sundials aligned parallel, round earth or flat? The guy is in Canada for Pete's sake. That's going to give him quite an offset. He needs to make sure they are pointing to the same place.

Not true north. Not magnetic north. Not grid north. They all bend around to face a point. Pointing with respect to a place infinitely far away in the same direction. He could have line them both up with a star for an instantaneous money shot, for example.

Of course finding a star during the day is going to be a problem ... but its round earth's problem. Maybe you could line them up the night before ... and then do the experiment the next day.

But then I might challenge if the stars are really billions of miles away ... because round earth has the distance of the sun wrong too.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 02:19:07 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2019, 01:41:17 AM »
???

But he aligns the sundials with MAGNETIC north. That's the offset. Magnetic north is not some point in the infinite distance. It is a place on earth. If I point my sundial in London to the same place as you point yours in California ... are those sundials aligned parallel, round earth or flat? The guy is in Canada for Pete's sake. That's going to give him quite an offset. He needs to make sure they are pointing to the same place.

Not true north. Not magnetic north. Not grid north. They all bend around to face a point. Pointing with respect to a place infinitely far away in the same direction. He could have line them both up with a star for an instantaneous money shot, for example.

Of course finding a star during the day is going to be a problem ... but its round earth's problem. Maybe you could line them up the night before ... and then do the experiment the next day.

But then I might challenge if the stars are really billions of miles away ... because round earth has the distance of the sun wrong too.

You are right and I am wrong. At 5:40 in the video he says the sundials are lined up with the road and lined up with each other. I assumed that was what he had done but he hadn't. He didn't try to line the sundials up with the road. If he had, he would have found that the compass bearings were different for the reasons you have stated. I humbly submit that I was wrong and consider myself schooled ;)

What I have found though is that you can still do Eratosthenes' experiment if the road is completely straight. But you have to throw away the compass. You don't need an external reference. If the two sundials are perfectly parallel to the road and the shadow goes down the middle of the base of one, it does go down the middle of the base of the other. Not surprising because light from the sun travels in a straight line, at least horizontally. At any time of the year, when this happens next to that road, the difference in elevation is 1.22°. For example, these are two points on that road 135.596km apart (according to GPS):

https://www.suncalc.org/#/50.4229,-104.5336,14/2019.06.23/10:57/1/3
https://www.suncalc.org/#/49.68,-103.0324,16/2019.06.23/10:57/1/3

According to Eratosthenes' formula, this makes the circumference of the Earth:

360 / 1.22 * 135.689 = 40011km.

Very, very close to the accepted number. Unfortunately for me, the shadows go down the middle of the bases at the same time on a round Earth too so my proof of a round Earth, as you already know, is garbage.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2019, 05:08:45 PM »
???

But he aligns the sundials with MAGNETIC north. That's the offset. Magnetic north is not some point in the infinite distance. It is a place on earth. If I point my sundial in London to the same place as you point yours in California ... are those sundials aligned parallel, round earth or flat? The guy is in Canada for Pete's sake. That's going to give him quite an offset. He needs to make sure they are pointing to the same place.

Not true north. Not magnetic north. Not grid north. They all bend around to face a point. Pointing with respect to a place infinitely far away in the same direction. He could have line them both up with a star for an instantaneous money shot, for example.

Of course finding a star during the day is going to be a problem ... but its round earth's problem. Maybe you could line them up the night before ... and then do the experiment the next day.

But then I might challenge if the stars are really billions of miles away ... because round earth has the distance of the sun wrong too.

You are right and I am wrong. At 5:40 in the video he says the sundials are lined up with the road and lined up with each other. I assumed that was what he had done but he hadn't. He didn't try to line the sundials up with the road. If he had, he would have found that the compass bearings were different for the reasons you have stated. I humbly submit that I was wrong and consider myself schooled ;)

What I have found though is that you can still do Eratosthenes' experiment if the road is completely straight. But you have to throw away the compass. You don't need an external reference. If the two sundials are perfectly parallel to the road and the shadow goes down the middle of the base of one, it does go down the middle of the base of the other. Not surprising because light from the sun travels in a straight line, at least horizontally. At any time of the year, when this happens next to that road, the difference in elevation is 1.22°. For example, these are two points on that road 135.596km apart (according to GPS):

https://www.suncalc.org/#/50.4229,-104.5336,14/2019.06.23/10:57/1/3
https://www.suncalc.org/#/49.68,-103.0324,16/2019.06.23/10:57/1/3

According to Eratosthenes' formula, this makes the circumference of the Earth:

360 / 1.22 * 135.689 = 40011km.

Very, very close to the accepted number. Unfortunately for me, the shadows go down the middle of the bases at the same time on a round Earth too so my proof of a round Earth, as you already know, is garbage.

That is probably the most gracious defeat accepted by anyone on this site for a very long time. I tip my new hat to you (I stole it from Jeppspace's flaccid corpse).
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Offline jimmycrack

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Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2019, 05:03:27 AM »
1) Gravity - I have yet to see any compelling argument that explains gravity without using Newton's laws of Physics.
2) Stars and Moon - In the northern hemisphere, the moon appears different than it does in the southern hemisphere.  Also there are different stars in the sky.
3) Lunar Eclipse - During a lunar eclipse, you can see the shadow of the Earth on the moon.
4) Day/Night - There is no way that a flat earth model can explain sufficiently how night and day work using a circular light delusion.
5) You cannot see the the Sierra Nevada Mountains from Las Vegas.  It is the driest place in the world and if it was flat, they should be easily seen with a telescope.
6) Satellites - We depend on them daily to get TV signal, GPS services, and communications to remote locations around the world.   
7) Felix Baumgartner.  When he jumps you can see the curvature of the earth easily.  His story cannot be realistically denied.
8) No one has been to the edge of the flat earth.  Not even Steve-O, who is probably the craziest person on the planet. 
9) U2 Spy Plane pilots can see the curve of the earth.  I knew an air force pilot that flew the SR71 and asked him if he could see it, and he said yes.  It was like he was in space. 
10) 536 Astronauts have been to space.  Also the columbia space mission in 2003 is a well documented mission to space that ended in tragedy. It was videoed until their last minutes they were alive on Feb 1st 2003.
11) There is no world map that does not have distortion.  Only a globe can be reliably used to measure distances to anywhere in the world.
12) Many explorers traversed across Antarctica bearing the bitter cold. The latest trip took 53 days and was well documented. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/2018/12/explorer-completes-historic-antarctic-trek/ 

I am sure I could go on, but I think that basically until I see a flat earth map that shows an Antarctica that can be traversed, that shows a 50% light/darkness ratio, and no distortion of the land masses, I am not buying flat earth. These things are all easily able to be shown with a Globe and from my experience, usually the simplest solutions are the best solutions.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 12:54:52 PM by jimmycrack »
The earth is NOT flat, and I can prove it.

Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2019, 08:15:16 PM »
Why would the shadows be the same length on a flat earth?

The guy uses highway 33 in Canada.
Quote from: https://leaderpost.com/news/local-news/scientist-pedalling-140km-from-regina-to-prove-the-earth-is-round
Baute will cycle approximately 140km along Highway 33 from Regina to Stoughton

That road isn't north south.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/SK-33,+Saskatchewan,+Canada/@50.0646593,-104.3574711,9z/data=!4m8!1m2!2m1!1scanada+highway+33!3m4!1s0x531e59aad00d09e5:0xb3b578691b9eb1d5!8m2!3d50.0642098!4d-103.7971402

So it is a different local time of day at the two ends of the road. Would you expect a shadow at midday to be the same length as one at sunset?

At least when Eratosthenes did the experiment he took the LOCAL noon time for each location, not at the same generic time of day.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
He knew that at local noon on the summer solstice in Syene (modern Aswan, Egypt), the Sun was directly overhead.

In the video at 6:23 you can see them counting down to take the exact same real time ... not the same local time.

And you will note from the map that Syene and Alexandria are roughly North South, certainly not 45 degrees off like this guy. (Eratosthenes's done his best being as he has to use the Nile ... travelling the Sahara back then was pretty dangerous and difficult.)


This guy doesn't understand the geometry or Eratosthenes experiment. He's just an idiot in cycling shorts. He has proved nothing.

If you take the measurements at different moments, in each point's exact local noon, then you'd need a North-South difference to have any results. This one experiment, though, as both measurements are taken at the same time, it can also catch any East-West difference as well. Thus, you are not debunking his proof.

Re: Round Earth proof - comments?
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2019, 03:57:43 PM »
I post a similar but easier experience, a single pole on Quito Equator, and kindly request Tom Bishop to answer.
I know he is very busy, but I am sure he will be glad to answer.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14748.0