Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 12:10:16 PM »
Usually, the vetting of evidence is incumbent on the presenter...correct?
No, this is not the usual case at all and never has been in the case of images.

As an example, a nature photography competition may have certain rules about what is allowed.  The PSA definition is here: https://psa-photo.org/index.php?nature-nature-definition  Photographers are welcome to submit pictures, but are never asked to provide any proof their submissions meet the criteria.  It is then up to the folks running the competition to determine whether or not the entered images meet the definition.

The audience always the final say.

Similarly with reputable scientific journals: there is always peer review to assess the validity and the methodology of the experiments to support the argument put forward in the submitted paper prior to publication.

I think that Tom possibly did not watch the video all the way through as the purpose of the challenge is very clearly explained by VoysovReason.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 12:16:10 PM »
Usually, the vetting of evidence is incumbent on the presenter...correct?
No, this is not the usual case at all and never has been in the case of images.

As an example, a nature photography competition may have certain rules about what is allowed.  The PSA definition is here: https://psa-photo.org/index.php?nature-nature-definition  Photographers are welcome to submit pictures, but are never asked to provide any proof their submissions meet the criteria.  It is then up to the folks running the competition to determine whether or not the entered images meet the definition.

The audience always the final say.
How does a competition involve evidence?

Evidence is based on a vetting process and the evidence is vetted by the person presenting the evidence, period...end of sentence.

Unless you want to claim a person who is presenting photos for submission in a nature photo contest does not first determine the photos he is going to submit meet the contest requirements...
I do not believe the compilation of the "information," is correct and much of it is altered to render a false visual.
OK, and what is your evidence for that belief and what are your qualifications and expertise in this area?
Surely that belief is based on something?
Perhaps this image.

Not possible to achieve from the height of the ISS if the RE claims of measure are as presented.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 01:04:51 PM »
Perhaps this image.

Not possible to achieve from the height of the ISS if the RE claims of measure are as presented.

And how have you determined the photo is not possible to achieve? Do you know what camera and lens were used? do you know the source of the image (who took it)? What measurements are you referring to? I don't doubt the sincerity of your post but you've given little information for anyone to go by to work out exactly what you think is going on and how exactly it's possible (or not possible). Tell us what exactly is wrong with the image that makes it impossible.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 02:01:23 PM »
Perhaps this image.

Not possible to achieve from the height of the ISS if the RE claims of measure are as presented.

And how have you determined the photo is not possible to achieve? Do you know what camera and lens were used? do you know the source of the image (who took it)? What measurements are you referring to? I don't doubt the sincerity of your post but you've given little information for anyone to go by to work out exactly what you think is going on and how exactly it's possible (or not possible). Tell us what exactly is wrong with the image that makes it impossible.
I clearly stated what is wrong.

The amount of curvature in the photo is impossible to achieve from the height and viewpoint.

That is indisputable.

Even RE acknowledges this fact, here on this very forum:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11814.msg178897#msg178897
"The ISS is orbitting at an average height of 250 miles which is 3.1% of the diameter of Earth..."
Does that look like 3.1% of the diameter, or does it look like nearly 50 percent?

Perhaps you will believe this one though...

Here you have the entirety of the circle of the earth (AN AMAZING 100 PERCENT!), all conveniently caught with the purview of the ISS cupola from a supposed height of just over 250 miles above the earth's surface...

Gimme a break...LOL!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:34:35 PM by totallackey »

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Offline BillO

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 02:33:33 PM »
... all conveniently caught with the purview of the ISS cupola from a supposed height of just over 250 miles above the earth's surface...

Gimme a break...LOL!
So, are you saying that because you found one camera on the ISS that uses a fish-eye lens that proves that all cameras on the ISS use fish-eye lenses?
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 02:41:08 PM »
... all conveniently caught with the purview of the ISS cupola from a supposed height of just over 250 miles above the earth's surface...

Gimme a break...LOL!
So, are you saying that because you found one camera on the ISS that uses a fish-eye lens that proves that all cameras on the ISS use fish-eye lenses?
I don't care what kind of camera is being used.

I wrote: "I do not believe the compilation of the "information," is correct and much of it is altered to render a false visual."

In response, I received this query from AATW: "OK, and what is your evidence for that belief and what are your qualifications and expertise in this area?
Surely that belief is based on something?"

I am writing the images presented by NASA present a false narrative of a globe earth and I have provided visual evidence they indeed do just that.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 02:51:28 PM »
It's perfectly possible to get that shot... If you're able to look out the window and see the perceived edge of the earth then you're able to get that photo. A 360 camera would be able to get that photo. I fail to see how you think this is impossible.

Is this photo selfie somehow also fake?



Maybe actually watch the OP video, as he points this out too, that while a photo might seem surreal it doesn't mean it isn't real.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:54:43 PM by ChrisTP »

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 02:55:44 PM »
... all conveniently caught with the purview of the ISS cupola from a supposed height of just over 250 miles above the earth's surface...

Gimme a break...LOL!
So, are you saying that because you found one camera on the ISS that uses a fish-eye lens that proves that all cameras on the ISS use fish-eye lenses?
I don't care what kind of camera is being used.

I wrote: "I do not believe the compilation of the "information," is correct and much of it is altered to render a false visual."

In response, I received this query from AATW: "OK, and what is your evidence for that belief and what are your qualifications and expertise in this area?
Surely that belief is based on something?"

I am writing the images presented by NASA present a false narrative of a globe earth and I have provided visual evidence they indeed do just that.
OK, and do you by chance have a source for the image you presented? Did you look into it in order to determine that it's actually impossible? Or are you just making an assumption? A quick google on it reveals it's an image taken out of the ISS cupola utilizing a fisheye lens. The cupola extends out beyond the surface of the ISS to provide essentially a 360 degree view with a 'horizon' of the edge of the station. How is it impossible for such a setup to be able to capture the whole of the Earth utilizing a fisheye lens? Sounds more like you need it to be fake, so you've decided it's fake without any investigation. Which is exactly what the video is essentially accusing FE'rs of doing.

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Offline BillO

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 03:14:02 PM »
I am writing the images presented by NASA present a false narrative of a globe earth and I have provided visual evidence they indeed do just that.
How is that image a false narrative of a globe earth?  Was it presented as an accurate account of the curvature?
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 08:33:42 AM »
I am writing the images presented by NASA present a false narrative of a globe earth and I have provided visual evidence they indeed do just that.
You have provided evidence that one image does that, but my questions about that are
1) Is that image being presented by NASA as proof of the globe earth - I imagine not as I don't think they really feel the need to prove that.
2) If it is then clearly the curve of the earth is greatly exaggerated, are you suggesting that this image is CGI but when rendering it they distorted the curve of the earth deliberately? Why would they do that?

Some lenses do distort reality, straight lines can become curved. BUT, if I take a photo of something using such a lens I still have to be looking at the object I'm taking a photo of. So in this case, are you claiming the photo was taken from space but is distorted? If so then yes, I agree, but there are plenty of images and video from space which aren't so what's your point? The other alternative is that the whole image is faked but why they would deliberately distort the image like that is beyond me.
The FE claim about NASA seems to be that they are competent enough to fake space travel well enough to fool almost everyone, but simultaneously incompetent enough that some people on the internet who have no experience or qualifications in image analysis can spot the fakes.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline stack

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2019, 09:27:56 AM »
1) Is that image being presented by NASA as proof of the globe earth - I imagine not as I don't think they really feel the need to prove that.

An interesting thing you raise as many others have probably as well. The default position for an FEr is that NASA, all space agencies from various countries, private or public, have to be a ruse, part of a conspiracy, whathaveyou. Otherwise, anything produced by them, showing earth from space, round and such, manmade objects orbiting, beyond the dome, etc., ruins the FE view. So it all has to be garbage. There's no middle ground. So there is no way an FEr could ever accept stuff in space, as it were. It's an untenable notion.

Which leads me back to kind of an interesting psychological assumption; if you believe the earth is flat - you cannot believe any evidence from any space endeavor - means there has to be a conspiracy of immense magnitude to fulfill the conspiracy - means much of what images/video from 'space endeavors' are presented almost solely to perpetuate the conspiracy.

Point being, an FE'rs default when presented with any image/video is that it's fake b/c it has to be and the agency/company who presented is trying to prove a globe earth with their fakery.
Whereas to your point, I don't think these agencies/companies give a shit about proving or disproving a globe earth. Why would they? Why would they need to 'indoctrinate' more of us? Pretty much job done.

Interesting how the conspiratorial mind works and why it needs to.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2019, 10:41:41 AM »
for the record this was answered a while ago.



Thanks for putting this up, ChrisTP. I had seen a briefer example in a SciManDan video demonstrating the variation in continent size by zooming in on a globe, but this was much clearer. Also this guy has a calmer approach. One of the things that lets Dan and others down is their hostility (which I appreciate is often a reaction to provocation, and borne of exasperation). Met with hostility to our opinions we all just tend to dig our heels in - a natural human response - so it’s a tactic that is never going to convince a FE believer.

Having only been around this debate for a short time, I’m realising that FErs are never going to be convinced that they are wrong. As others have said on these fora, it’s denialism probably coupled with incredulity in many cases.

I feel genuine compassion for them. It must be exhausting believing this stuff and being outraged by it.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2019, 11:28:04 AM »
Interesting how the conspiratorial mind works and why it needs to.
It is an interesting psychology.
The part I understand is "I believe A, B contradicts A therefore B is wrong or fake"
If you believe A strongly enough then a mixture of Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance will allow you to dismiss B no matter how strong evidence B is.
It's an interesting and common psychology but one which is fairly well understood.
The thing I don't understand is how do you get to believe A in the first place. A lot of that is, I think, to do with an underlying belief that "they" are up to something.
And "they" are up to some things, certainly, but pretending the earth is a different shape to the one commonly believed is unlikely to be one of them.

I've still yet to see anything other than vague assertions about photos/video from space. "You can see a bubble". No, I can see a speck. I don't know what that speck is but it can't be a bubble because they're not underwater. "He is clearly wearing a harness". Well, not clearly. I can't see any wires. I can see some fold in his clothes but that doesn't clearly indicate anything. The weightless thing is interesting because you get so many different explanations - underwater, harnesses, CGI, parabolic flights. Tom even suggested some kind of levitation which, as far as I know, can only levitate objects up to the size of a small frog without some serious and unrealistic power. It's interesting that Tom didn't understand why being able to analyse photos for evidence of fakery/manipulation was a pre-requisite skill for analysing photos from NASA and other space agencies both national and private.

I've personally seen a shuttle launch. Has anyone witnessed one of them landing again before the mission has ended? Where are they going if it's not space?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2019, 11:57:44 AM »
It's perfectly possible to get that shot... If you're able to look out the window and see the perceived edge of the earth then you're able to get that photo. A 360 camera would be able to get that photo. I fail to see how you think this is impossible.

Is this photo selfie somehow also fake?



Maybe actually watch the OP video, as he points this out too, that while a photo might seem surreal it doesn't mean it isn't real.
Do you even read what I write?

Evidently not, as absolutely ZERO of your response addresses none of what I have written here in this thread.

If you are insisting on remaining utterly vacuous of meaningful response, please go to AR.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 12:04:29 PM »
It's perfectly possible to get that shot... If you're able to look out the window and see the perceived edge of the earth then you're able to get that photo. A 360 camera would be able to get that photo. I fail to see how you think this is impossible.

Is this photo selfie somehow also fake?



Maybe actually watch the OP video, as he points this out too, that while a photo might seem surreal it doesn't mean it isn't real.
Do you even read what I write?

Evidently not, as absolutely ZERO of your response addresses none of what I have written here in this thread.

If you are insisting on remaining utterly vacuous of meaningful response, please go to AR.
I can't tell at this point if you're kidding but I will assume you're still being sincere. You have yet to prove how the photo is fake. All you've done is claim it's not possible. I stated how it's possible and you've now assumed my response has no meaning...

"Evidently not, as absolutely ZERO of your response addresses none of what I have written here in this thread." - not sure if the double negative was on purpose but if so I agree I suppose?

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 12:10:11 PM »
I am writing the images presented by NASA present a false narrative of a globe earth and I have provided visual evidence they indeed do just that.
You have provided evidence that one image does that, but my questions about that are
1) Is that image being presented by NASA as proof of the globe earth - I imagine not as I don't think they really feel the need to prove that.
I have provided more than one and there are indeed many others.

NASA simply needs to continue to support globe earth and related issues in order to maintain funding.
2) If it is then clearly the curve of the earth is greatly exaggerated, are you suggesting that this image is CGI but when rendering it they distorted the curve of the earth deliberately? Why would they do that?
I do not know how the image was produced or compiled.

Nobody does.

Certainly no one here.
Some lenses do distort reality, straight lines can become curved. BUT, if I take a photo of something using such a lens I still have to be looking at the object I'm taking a photo of. So in this case, are you claiming the photo was taken from space but is distorted? If so then yes, I agree, but there are plenty of images and video from space which aren't so what's your point?
You have zero clue as to whether any images produced by NASA are legitimate is my point.
The other alternative is that the whole image is faked but why they would deliberately distort the image like that is beyond me.
Why does anyone or anybody fake anything?

People and organizations have lied, are lying, and will continue to lie until the end of time.

Usually to gain or keep something they do not want to lose.
The FE claim about NASA seems to be that they are competent enough to fake space travel well enough to fool almost everyone, but simultaneously incompetent enough that some people on the internet who have no experience or qualifications in image analysis can spot the fakes.
Having written many times over many threads the fact technology has existed since the beginning of announced space travel that is capable of rendering images (according to experts) indistinguishable from the supposed real thing would lead one to believe your claim of FE being incompetent also lies on your side of the aisle.

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 12:15:00 PM »
It's perfectly possible to get that shot... If you're able to look out the window and see the perceived edge of the earth then you're able to get that photo. A 360 camera would be able to get that photo. I fail to see how you think this is impossible.

Is this photo selfie somehow also fake?



Maybe actually watch the OP video, as he points this out too, that while a photo might seem surreal it doesn't mean it isn't real.
Do you even read what I write?

Evidently not, as absolutely ZERO of your response addresses none of what I have written here in this thread.

If you are insisting on remaining utterly vacuous of meaningful response, please go to AR.
I can't tell at this point if you're kidding but I will assume you're still being sincere. You have yet to prove how the photo is fake. All you've done is claim it's not possible. I stated how it's possible and you've now assumed my response has no meaning...

"Evidently not, as absolutely ZERO of your response addresses none of what I have written here in this thread." - not sure if the double negative was on purpose but if so I agree I suppose?
Not kidding at all.

And your grammatical correction is misguided.

Now, kindly point out for the readership where I wrote the word "fake," in this thread, and in what context.

That way you will demonstrate both the ability to read and the ability to understand what you are reading.

Thank you.

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Offline BillO

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »
You said the image was impossible which implies it is fake.  Are you being obtuse?

You also said you did not know how the image was composed or complied.  Your admitted ignorance means you cannot make the claim it is impossible.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 01:39:42 PM »
Totallackey... The title of this thread states this is your opportunity to prove the NASA images are fake. You presented an image from NASA and said impossible images like this are the reason. You don't need to specifically call something fake if you're calling it impossible and implying it's not real. Watch me do it;

Flat earth isn't real, it's not a thing, it's made up. On the other hand, Globe earth is real.

See how I didn't say flat earth was fake but still made the claim that is is fake? Real is an antonym of fake. By claiming something is impossible you're claiming the photo is not possible, if it were possible, it would be real while if it were impossible, it *must* have been a fake, a forgery, a hoax. it doesn't matter what word you use to describe it, your whole claim is that the photo is fake but your evidence thus far is zero.

Stop dodging the question, how is the photo impossible to take? What makes that photo impossible? Please give us some actual evidence of fakery and not just your opinion. A claim must be backed up by evidence.

As a side note I genuinely wish for you to be right about this photo. I want it to be fake. If you were right it would be pretty fun to find out and I literally don't care if the world is flat or sphere (I mean it really makes literally no difference to me) but it'd be pretty interesting to me if it were flat. So while I think the NASA images are real based on my professional record as a CGI artist who's been using Photoshop for the last 17 years, I wouldn't mind them being fake either. I also take my constructive citisism pretty well so by all means prove me wrong when I say the photo is perfectly possible and thus real (or the very least no reason or evidence to be fake that I can see).

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 01:54:49 PM »
You said the image was impossible which implies it is fake.  Are you being obtuse?

You also said you did not know how the image was composed or complied.  Your admitted ignorance means you cannot make the claim it is impossible.
I did say the image was impossible.

It is impossible based on the math involved.

Even if RE is true, the stated parameters of RE, combined with the stated parameters of the ISS, indicates the image is impossible.

Quit being so disingenuous with your silly characterizations.