#### Pinky

• 88
##### Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« on: November 28, 2018, 01:26:09 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 12:07:58 PM by totallackey »
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### Pinky

• 88
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 02:19:03 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???

Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.

Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.

#### junker

• Planar Moderator
• 9117
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 03:55:30 PM »
Seriously???

Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant...

How about you stop being so condescending and stick to an argument you would like to make. Warned. You are on two bans already, next one is a month vacation.

#### MattyWS

##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 04:55:38 PM »
I see. If the FE map were to be taken at face value, it's not possible to travel from the equator going north to the pole, turn 90 degrees left, travel the same amount of distance, turn 90 degrees left again and travel the same amount of distance and end up back where you started. by doing that on a flat map you'd make a square with a missing side and you'd not be back in the same place you started, if you do it on the globe map, you form a triangle and you end up where you started.

Now with that in mind, if you do it in real life, you will end up back where you start. So how on flat earth is that possible?

I made a quick sphere object to show the path with 90 degree turns.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 05:02:16 PM by MattyWS »

#### Pinky

• 88
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2018, 07:45:23 AM »
I see. If the FE map were to be taken at face value, it's not possible to travel from the equator going north to the pole, turn 90 degrees left, travel the same amount of distance, turn 90 degrees left again and travel the same amount of distance and end up back where you started. by doing that on a flat map you'd make a square with a missing side and you'd not be back in the same place you started, if you do it on the globe map, you form a triangle and you end up where you started.

Now with that in mind, if you do it in real life, you will end up back where you start. So how on flat earth is that possible?

I made a quick sphere object to show the path with 90 degree turns.

Exactly. There is no map that is based on FE-geometry AND that correctly predicts distances and angles in the real world.

And on the other hand, maps based on a SE-geometry can correctly predict distances and angles in the real world. If they could not, we would hear complaints from navigators and cartographers.

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2018, 12:13:39 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???
Yes.
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.

You do have flat maps depicting travel distances that are relatively accurate.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.
Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?

If you do that, what happens to verified distances?
Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.
It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### MattyWS

##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2018, 01:46:26 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???
Yes.
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.

You do have flat maps depicting travel distances that are relatively accurate.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.
Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?

If you do that, what happens to verified distances?
Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.
It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.

#### RonJ

• 914
• ACTA NON VERBA
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2018, 04:42:29 PM »
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts.  Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts.  Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth.  Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system.  Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently.  Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West.  It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac.  Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships.  Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

#### Spingo

• 63
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM »
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat  because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.

The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 02:02:16 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### Curious Squirrel

• 1338
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 02:15:26 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 02:17:19 PM »
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts.  Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts.  Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth.  Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system.  Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently.  Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West.  It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac.  Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships.  Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat  because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.

The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.

Of course every single map ever drawn was done so by a person who had no advantage of an overview of a sphere.

Each map was drawn with the same advantages of eyesight and measuring devices (incapable of detecting supposed arc) while performing a journey, during which the entire time a person was uttering the immortal phrase, "It looks flat to me!"
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 02:20:07 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### Curious Squirrel

• 1338
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 02:28:28 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 02:31:43 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.
You would assume wrong.

James Clark Ross.

Also a Lieutenant Charles Wilkes in the US Navy made note of problems in reckoning and distances.

It is when you consider proportion.

You act as if voyages in the Southern Ocean are a routine occurrence.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 02:37:21 PM by totallackey »
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### Curious Squirrel

• 1338
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 02:46:41 PM »
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.
You would assume wrong.

James Clark Ross.

Also a Lieutenant Charles Wilkes in the US Navy made note of problems in reckoning and distances.

It is when you consider proportion.

You act as if voyages in the Southern Ocean are a routine occurrence.
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!

#### totallackey

• 2273
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 02:56:16 PM »
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:00:17 PM by totallackey »
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

#### Curious Squirrel

• 1338
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 03:15:28 PM »
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?
James Cook: Died in 1779
James Weddel: Died in 1834
James Clark Ross: Died in 1862
Charles Wilkes: Died in 1877

Not a single one who was alive in the 20th century, much less the 21st. If you are referring to someone else that happens to share the same name, please provide an actual link to a source. Oh, and btw the first Antarctic expedition? 1907-1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_Expedition So yeah, every single one of them was dead before we started exploring Antarctica.

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.
Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 06:28:06 PM by Curious Squirrel »

#### JRowe

• 639
• Slowly being driven insane by RE nonsense
##### Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 05:09:00 PM »
I'm going to say something that's more than likely going to be taken out of context for people to jump down my throat for, but hear me out: people don't use maps for navigation.

On any scale beyond your basic shopping center map, they aren't going to be nearly as useful as landmarks. Ok, yes, you need a map to get a vague idea of what's near where, but that doesn't need to be particularly accurate. Does it really affect your driving if the roads on an atlas are a few degrees off, or centimeters too long, or do you just care about the road names and junctions?
Even at sea, they use the stars as reference points. All they really need a map for is to work out which constellation to head for, and by the time they get closer they can just use their eyes. Ok, we can see land, it has that feature which exists there, so we want to head that way... You don't need a particularly accurate map for any of that.
Landmarks are the most important part of navigation, far more than a 100% accurate map. A sketched out sheet that notes down roughly how they relate to each other is as useful as the most accurate flat or spherical map in the world, and even that can be replaced by a few notes. If you try to follow a map alone by, say, ship, you're going to get screwed over in your first day at sea if your angle isn't accurate to within 0.01 degrees, or if there's a single wave or odd wind that adjusts that angle. That's true for any journey, there's no perfect means to point yourself in one direction and go, so the means to course correct are required for navigation, and that's where landmarks come in. 'Head 100km 10 degrees from North,' isn't nearly as useful as 'take the third left, if you reach Burger King you've gone too far.'