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Offline markjo

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2018, 08:41:50 PM »
Isn't this getting a bit off topic?  I thought that this thread was for discussing evidence in support of FE Universal Acceleration rather than nit picking RE gravity. 

Tom, does your presenting all of those anomaly maps mean that you accept that there are indeed measurable variations in the acceleration of the earth?  If so, how do you propose that UA should explain these variations?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:16:56 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2018, 10:54:57 PM »
It seems to me, that the device, since it is recording and interpreting noise from the basic level, may in part, actually be recording something like P-Waves, which cause vertical oscillation in the ground, that can transmute through the air, which why devices on airplanes can detect them, and is why the anomolous zones correlate to seismic zones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_wave

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Primary waves

Primary waves (P-waves) are compressional waves that are longitudinal in nature. P waves are pressure waves that travel faster than other waves through the earth to arrive at seismograph stations first, hence the name "Primary". These waves can travel through any type of material, including fluids, and can travel nearly 1.7 times faster than the S waves. In air, they take the form of sound waves, hence they travel at the speed of sound. Typical speeds are 330 m/s in air, 1450 m/s in water and about 5000 m/s in granite.

The multiple levels of filtering, trending, analysis, interpreting, obfuscates the real mechanism.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 01:05:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2018, 11:18:59 PM »
Go find one of the world-wide gravity maps. Show us where they are, or the machine is, correcting for, or not correcting for, latitude in those numbers.
The maps you linked to were anomaly maps, not gravity maps. This is why you need to understand what an anomaly is, how it differs from a correction, and why both of these are different from observed gravity. It's actually not difficult, for anyone with a reasonable attention span.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2018, 11:34:52 PM »
Go find one of the world-wide gravity maps. Show us where they are, or the machine is, correcting for, or not correcting for, latitude in those numbers.
The maps you linked to were anomaly maps, not gravity maps.

Where are the gravity maps?

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2018, 12:05:26 AM »
Go find one of the world-wide gravity maps. Show us where they are, or the machine is, correcting for, or not correcting for, latitude in those numbers.
The maps you linked to were anomaly maps, not gravity maps.

Where are the gravity maps?

Here's one:



https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-06/esa-satellite-maps-earths-gravity-3-d
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2018, 12:07:50 AM »
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 12:38:02 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2018, 12:18:59 AM »
That's the same map we were looking at. Look at the areas near South America, Greenland, North of Australia, Japan. Same pattern.

Looks different to me. But I'm not sure where the anomaly map versus gravity map angle comes from? In essence, it's one in the same. Isn't the whole point of this discussion revolve around the fact that there are different gravitational measurements made around the globe?  And how does UA account for that? I mean, essentially, UA is gravity in reverse, for lack of a better descriptor. So does a UA map look the same across the board, no hot spots, no cold spots?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2018, 01:21:03 AM »
With UA you would have everything showing the same acceleration.  Everything would be the same color.  You wouldn't have an acceleration that depended upon latitude.  Measuring the acceleration would be just as accurate (or inaccurate) so the same arguments could just be used in reverse against UA.  Now take a look at the red shift phenomenon due to gravity.  UA has NO explanation for that.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2018, 02:19:29 AM »
I agree. With UA, the entirety of the map would be green.

Or, as I think Tom is contending, the maps are accurate, but instead of showing gravitational variances, they are actually showing tectonic plate seismic activity instead, conceivably mistaken as gravitational variances? Am I off the mark here?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2018, 02:37:26 AM »
Is it a coincidence that a gravimeter can double as a seismometer and measure earthquakes thousands of miles away?


Monitoring earthquakes with gravity meters

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674984715301920

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Abstract: Seismic waves from a magnitude 8.3 earthquake in Japan were consistently recorded by five nearly identical gPhone gravity meters in Colorado. Good correlation was also found in the response of two different types of gravity meters and a standard seismometer in Walferdange, Luxembourg to an earthquake of magnitude 8.2 in Japan, indicating that all of them were capable of measuring the surface waves reliably. The gravity meters, however, recorded 11 separate arrivals of Raleigh waves, while the seismometer only one. Thus the gravity meters may be useful for obtaining new information in the study of seismic velocities, attenuation and dispersion.

The end two sentences of that abstract even implies that gravity meters may be better for measuring seismic elements.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2018, 02:59:38 AM »
We have seen at how the gravity anomalies seem to all fall on somewhere the plate lines. It seems that the largest parts specifically match areas of Convergent Plate Boundaries and most common earthquake activity.





In the effort to "find gravity" they found Seismic Waves.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 03:30:02 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2018, 03:39:49 AM »
We have seen at how the gravity anomalies seem to all fall on somewhere the plate lines. It seems that the largest parts specifically match areas of Convergent Plate Boundaries and most common earthquake activity.
Tom, are you suggesting that gravity anomalies should not occur where you find extra mass as a result of tectonic plates overlapping?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2018, 04:28:38 AM »
"Gravity Anomalies" observed before earthquakes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674984717300034

The mass of the earth changes before an earthquake? Quite the mystery, indeed.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 04:33:13 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2018, 06:06:47 AM »
"Gravity Anomalies" observed before earthquakes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674984717300034

The mass of the earth changes before an earthquake? Quite the mystery, indeed.

Yes, according to the paper, they measured "pre-seismic amplitude perturbation and co-seismic amplitude perturbation of gravity before the two earthquakes."  And your point is?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2018, 06:44:38 AM »
Monitoring earthquakes with gravity meters

A comparison of Gravity Meters and Seismometers.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674984715301920

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Figure 9. Seismic records by a gPhone (blue) and a STS-2 seismometer



Figure 10. A set of five-minute S-wave records with an STS-2 seismometer and a gPhone



Figure 11. A set of five-minute records of background variation with an STS-2 seismometer and a gPhone

Funny how Gravity Meters and Seismometers agree like that.

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2018, 07:18:00 AM »
Funny how Gravity Meters and Seismometers agree like that.

If I understand the paper correctly a change in seismic activity can cause a change in the underlying mass of rocks below hence a correlating measurement on a gravity meter.  Doesn't seem funny or mysterious to me, quite logical in fact.

And so I take it that you're whole angle here is that seismometer measurements and gravity meter measurements are simply one in the same and those who measure gravity variances/anomalies are actually just mistaking such for seismic activity? Just to put a fine point on it, is that your argument?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2018, 08:59:29 AM »
I'm not sure where the anomaly map versus gravity map angle comes from? In essence, it's one in the same.

Not one and the same.

    Gravity anomaly = observed acceleration – theoretical acceleration due to gravity

The terms on the right are two large numbers. Let’s say 982,972,760.4 for observed acceleration, 982,972,175.1 for theoretical acceleration. But the difference is a small number (585.3). So not the same in any sense.

To get the discussion back on track we need to focus on observed acceleration, which differs across the globe. It’s about 5 million higher at the poles than at the equator.

Tom is having difficulty with this idea, hence our long detour through the rabbit hole of ‘anomaly’.

And so I take it that [Tom’s] whole angle here is that seismometer measurements and gravity meter measurements are simply one in the same and those who measure gravity variances/anomalies are actually just mistaking such for seismic activity?

That is Tom’s belief, as I understand it. It strikes me as preposterous for a number of reasons. For example, gravimeters are highly sensitive instruments and will be disturbed by the tiniest movement, so you would not make observations during seismic activity.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:13:53 AM by edby »

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2018, 09:11:05 AM »
Here's one:



https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-06/esa-satellite-maps-earths-gravity-3-d
This is obviously an anomaly map, i.e. difference between observed and theoretical acceleration. If it were a measure of observed acceleration, there would be a difference of 5 million between equator and poles. Are we seeing that?

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2018, 11:16:21 AM »
"Gravity Anomalies" observed before earthquakes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674984717300034

The mass of the earth changes before an earthquake? Quite the mystery, indeed.
I agree it would be a mystery, but where does that piece claim that the mass of the earth changes?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 02:17:43 PM by edby »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Theory Unification Project - The Universal Accelerator
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2018, 07:31:02 PM »
It says that the gravity readings on the gravimeter change as a precursor to an earthquake. The change of mass would be the interpretation if it were measuring "gravity". I do not believe it is because the mass of the earth changed. The vibration levels changed. I believe that a gravimeter is a seismometer, which some appear to say in those seismograph-gravimeter earthquake papers is more advanced in some ways.

This inventor describes gravimeters as follows:

http://www.njsas.org/projects/tidal_forces/magnetic_gravimeter/baker/

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A seismometer usually looks for the smallest possible acceleration changes. Since gravity is physically the same as acceleration, gravimeters are merely versions of seismometers with an infinitely long period response.


From https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2017RG000566 we read:

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In an absolute gravimeter, a test laser beam bounces off the free‐falling body before being reflected back to the interferometer, where the test beam interferes with a reference one. While the dropped mass is completely isolated from the Earth's vibrations during its fall, anthropogenic and natural microseismic noises continuously modify the position of the reference mirror of the interferometer. Even in the absence of an earthquake, the displacements of the Earth's surface are persistent and location and season dependent, reaching up to a few micrometers close to the coast (Kedar et al., 2008), while one should measure the free‐fall distance at the 1 nm precision level in order to achieve a precision on gravity of 10 nm/s2. In the first white‐light gravimeter, the measurements of gravity were corrected by using the records from a 1 s period seismometer. Early in the 1980s, Rinker (1983) developed the so‐called Super Spring, that is, a modified seismometer providing an inertial reference system at periods shorter than about 1 min—the suspended mass of a seismometer provides an inertial reference frame, independent from the motions of the Earth, at periods shorter than the resonance frequency (Aki & Richards, 2002). The challenge consisted in producing a suspension device of which the free period is about 1 min, that is, longer than the periods ranging 5–20 s, where microseism is the strongest.

From http://microglacoste.com/gPhoneNoise/gPhoneSeismicNoise.pdf we read:

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It is interesting to speculate on the precise origin of the background seismic noise. Haubrich et al ii for example, open their article with the following description of the seismic noise background and the large interest it has generated over the years as well as the intractability of its investigation:

" The low‐level background unrest of the earth, called microseisms or earth noise, has puzzled seismologists and other scientists for nearly a century. The problem of its nature and causes has proved particularly unyielding, not, however, for  lack  of  investigation.  A  bibliography  covering  work up  to 1955  [Gutenberg  and  Andrews,  1956] iii lists  over  600  articles on  the  subject;  one  covering  the  years  from  1955  to  1964 [Hjortenberg,  1967] iv lists  566.  Unfortunately,  much  of  this work has advanced the subject but slightly. "

If gravimeters are really seismometers, and are measuring tiny vibrations and noise with numerous levels of filtering and analysis, and are interpreting the left over vibrations as gravity, it seems that it may not be a direct test of gravity at all.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:32:49 AM by Tom Bishop »