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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2014, 10:39:40 PM »
Bitcoin is shit until then.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2014, 11:41:22 PM »
Bitcoin is shit until then.

I think you're confused.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2014, 12:25:50 AM »
No you
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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2014, 07:43:55 PM »
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.

Well, if it would cost me 4 bitcoins worth of resources to mine 1 bitcoin, then I'd have been better off using those resources to buy 4 bitcoins. I don't know why anyone would choose to mine bitcoins at a loss if you can purchase them cheaper. Rational people would always make this choice, until the cost of a bitcoin is greater than the cost to mine it yourself.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2014, 08:32:23 PM »
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.
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Thork

Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2014, 08:38:55 PM »
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.

Well, if it would cost me 4 bitcoins worth of resources to mine 1 bitcoin, then I'd have been better off using those resources to buy 4 bitcoins. I don't know why anyone would choose to mine bitcoins at a loss if you can purchase them cheaper. Rational people would always make this choice, until the cost of a bitcoin is greater than the cost to mine it yourself.
It makes me wonder if the mining of bitcoins won't just cease. No more bitcoins as it is too expensive to mine them. You have to assume most of the bitcoins that will ever be are already owned by other people. So where do you do from there? Somewhere else I suspect.

I am struggling to think of a more environmentally wasteful currency. One that uses energy to perform calculations that do nothing. If they were solving folding problems for cancer research or solving genome problems I could see the point. Why not just take a ticket and wait for your bitcoin based on time?

Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2014, 08:57:07 PM »
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.
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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2014, 08:57:40 PM »
I kind of get it, since crunching the algorithm gives the system a very measurable demand for the currency to base its value on. I am not sure if it is more or less wasteful than traditional methods of currency production.
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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2014, 08:59:46 PM »
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2014, 09:13:59 PM »
Quote
Mining a bitcoin isn't as simple as "pay this, receive this." There is no amazon.com selling bitcoin miners with free 2-day shipping. Good luck trying to buy one, much less having it to your doorstep and mining with it. A lot of sites claiming "cloud hashing" are just money grabs.

That sounds like virtually every aspect of Bitcoin.

Offline spank86

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #110 on: January 27, 2014, 09:42:33 PM »
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.

But if you buy the bitcoin for $100 you can get 4 and in a year they'll be worth $1,800 and you didn't have to buy a mining rig.


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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2014, 09:51:05 PM »
Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2014, 10:04:08 PM »
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.

But right now, I could spend $400, and get 4x the number of bitcoins without mining anything, as in this example, you can buy a bitcoin for $100. So now, instead of spending $400 to make $50, you're spending $400 to buy 4 coins, and making $1,400 ($350 x 4). The FV is only important in your decision to obtain bitcoins, not in the method you should go about getting them.

Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.

I've considered the value proposition of mining. Right now, if Rushy is correct with his numbers, it's 4x more expensive to produce bitcoins yourself than to purchase them. With this information, it's more rational to simply buy bitcoins rather than spend money mining them, and it will continue to be the case that nobody should mine them, until the cost  to purchase them exceeds the cost to produce them.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 10:10:13 PM by EnigmaZV »
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Offline spank86

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2014, 10:38:07 PM »
Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.

Personally I'd consider it when the value of a bitcoin approaches, or rather exceeds the cost of mining it.

Up till that point it makes more sense to acquire them of others wherever you can. That or collect beanie babies with the money.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2014, 11:19:43 PM »
Well I just looked at the KnCMiner Neptune that is supposed to come out soon (maybe it already has) and it looks promising. At 3TH/s it should be able to mine one block every 1.4 days. Using 3kW (est.) of power means that it would consume 2160 kWh/month and at 0.109$/kWh you are talking about $250/month to run it while earning 535 bitcoins a month on average. So unless there is something profoundly wrong with my calculations, or this miner is a bunch of BS, it already is viable.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2014, 11:31:14 PM »
Well I just looked at the KnCMiner Neptune that is supposed to come out soon (maybe it already has) and it looks promising. At 3TH/s it should be able to mine one block every 1.4 days. Using 3kW (est.) of power means that it would consume 2160 kWh/month and at 0.109$/kWh you are talking about $250/month to run it while earning 535 bitcoins a month on average. So unless there is something profoundly wrong with my calculations, or this miner is a bunch of BS, it already is viable.

In this case, a bitcoin would cost $0.47 to produce, plus whatever the cost of this Neptune thing is over its useful life, which if Moore's Law is correct should be about 2 years. The only thing I saw was that these things cost $10,000, so $420/mo, which would put the cost of production at $1.25/bitcoin. In which case, why would anyone pay the $800/bitcoin it costs now, when you can produce your own for $1.25. We now have a lower limit of cost at $1.25 per coin, which means that the difference between the cost to produce, and the cost to buy is a 640 times difference. Nobody in their right mind would pay that kind of markup, and if you're spending $3,200 to produce a bitcoin, as Rushy would have us believe, while someone else is spending $1.25 to produce the same product, you'd be better off putting your resources to something else.
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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2014, 11:45:13 PM »
Yeah I totally agree. I was shocked when these numbers came up which makes me think that I am missing a piece of information because if Rushy seems to know his bitcoins. Maybe he can weigh in about this miner?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2014, 02:18:51 AM »
Do me a favor guys and just ask questions, you're all stumbling around in the dark and I'm not sure where to begin... or whether I should laugh or cry.


I was shocked when these numbers came up which makes me think that I am missing a piece of information because if Rushy seems to know his bitcoins. Maybe he can weigh in about this miner?

The KnC Neptune isn't due to arrive until June or later. I can't tell you how many bitcoins it can mine, because predicting what the difficulty in June will be would be pure voodoo.

In this case, a bitcoin would cost $0.47 to produce, plus whatever the cost of this Neptune thing is over its useful life, which if Moore's Law is correct should be about 2 years. The only thing I saw was that these things cost $10,000, so $420/mo, which would put the cost of production at $1.25/bitcoin. In which case, why would anyone pay the $800/bitcoin it costs now, when you can produce your own for $1.25. We now have a lower limit of cost at $1.25 per coin, which means that the difference between the cost to produce, and the cost to buy is a 640 times difference. Nobody in their right mind would pay that kind of markup, and if you're spending $3,200 to produce a bitcoin, as Rushy would have us believe, while someone else is spending $1.25 to produce the same product, you'd be better off putting your resources to something else.

You seem to be doing a great job of confusing yourself, so I'm going to make this simple.

1. ASIC miners make a shitload of money. They are literally money printers and people are paying through the nose to grab one.
2. The company doesn't mine with their own miners because that is called "selfish mining" and it theoretically causes you to lose more money than you make because you damage the Bitcoin network. Butterfly Labs tried doing that and most of the community ignores them now. Unfortunately they continue to catch newbs in their marketing trap.
3. "as Rushy would have us believe" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I'm starting to think you don't even read my posts.

That sounds like virtually every aspect of Bitcoin.

Well if you want to be vague, all of life that has ever existed is a money grab.

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Offline Rushy

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