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Offline Pete Svarrior

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A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« on: October 13, 2018, 12:29:36 PM »
The Round Earth mindset has been a bit of a fascination of mine over the last few months. Recently, I've discussed some individuals' desire to reject information that doesn't match up with their imagination, specifically focusing on the GoPro photo taken from Everest which was floated about as "proof" of the Earth's rotundity. Hilariously, some RE proponents decided to reinforce my interpretation of their mindset by overreacting and demonstrating the very patterns I was accusing them of.

Anyway, it's time to dig into another story, one which has written itself while I wasn't paying attention. Back in March of 2018, everyone's favourite pop-scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson decided to publish a video on just how absurd the Flat Earth Theory is, in his mind.



Of course, most readers here will immediately notice one major issue: Neil has no clue what he's talking about, and I'm not just talking about his belief in RET. Neil forgot to RTFM.

But that's not new. We get people who failed to read the FAQ every day - NdGT's fame and wealth doesn't make him inherently more likely to educate himself before he opens his mouth. But this is where this story turns fun. An astute journalist at the Washington Post did read the FAQ, and while she managed to completely misunderstand some of what's been written, she successfully contrasted some of Neil's claims with our "nonsense" - pointing out that he's simply not addressing our claims.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/03/12/why-neil-degrasse-tyson-failed-to-prove-earth-isnt-flat/

Once again, we're left with a bleak image of society. Those who are supposed to lead the charge in educating the masses struggle to find it in themselves to actually research the subject they're intending to discuss, and prestigious journalistic outlets find it difficult to mount a more coherent response than "haha this is obviously stupid!"

But, as always, these dumpster fires ultimately end up advancing our cause. The WaPo article has recently resurged on social media, and people are noticing the lack of a credible response in the article. Ultimately, WaPo volunteered to act as a backlink farm for the Flat Earth Society. For that, I graciously thank them.
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Mysfit

Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 03:14:02 PM »
I do like a bit of Neil. He's nice.
4 mins in is the well experiment. The FAQ and Washington Post don't help there.
Does this fit under the heading of bending light? I think that's used for sunsets, but the wells technically have a different horizon.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 10:31:15 PM »
It's funny that he would use that "we have pictures argument" because in Neil deGrasse Tyson's latest book, "Accessory to War: The Unspoken Alliance Between Astrophysics and the Military," there are numerous statements about how access to space and space exploration was politicized and militarized from the very start, and that Astronomy in large part depends on funding from the government and military.

http://books.wwnorton.com/books/Accessory-to-War/

Quote from: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Space has been politicized and militarized from the opening moments of the race to reach it.

Tyson well admits that the military is deeply involved in space, and that the government and its allies attempt to control it in all aspects.

NASA was specifically created, not for the benefit of humanity, but to show the world that America could get ICBMs and other weapons into space and annihilate its enemies at the push of a button.

Mysfit

Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 10:56:37 PM »
It's funny that he would use that "we have pictures argument" because in Neil deGrasse Tyson's latest book, "Accessory to War: The Unspoken Alliance Between Astrophysics and the Military," there are numerous statements about how access to space and space exploration was politicized and militarized from the very start, and that Astronomy in large part depends on funding from the government and military.

http://books.wwnorton.com/books/Accessory-to-War/

Quote from: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Space has been politicized and militarized from the opening moments of the race to reach it.

Tyson well admits that the military is deeply involved in space, and that the government and its allies attempt to control it in all aspects.

NASA was specifically created, not for the benefit of humanity, but to show the world that America could get ICBMs and other weapons into space and annihilate its enemies at the push of a button.
I am unsure how military involvement breaks the argument of pictures. If it was Hollywood involvement, I would be getting a clearer picture (accidental play on words).
Surely, a military would want to spend money putting weapons up there before the [insert villain country] do.
It seems counter-intuitive to fight an information war on the home-front. There does not seem to be a benefit and it would cost SO much.
I looked into it recently with the application of Avatar's budget on the quantity of gopro space footage. It comes to well over 70 trillion USD like for like.

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Offline stack

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 01:32:44 AM »
Quote from: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Space has been politicized and militarized from the opening moments of the race to reach it.

Tyson well admits that the military is deeply involved in space, and that the government and its allies attempt to control it in all aspects.

Good read, about halfway through, definitely recommend.

NASA was specifically created, not for the benefit of humanity, but to show the world that America could get ICBMs and other weapons into space and annihilate its enemies at the push of a button.

I don't think that really means anything. I mean the initial Internet protocols were specifically created, not for the benefit of humanity, but to maintain military/government computer-to-computer communications in case of an ICBM attack. As well, we nailed the "push of a button" mutually assured destruction concept 50-60 years ago. So fast forward to today, I'm not sure something like the ISS, shared by several nations, one a cold war foe, in fact, necessarily speaks to NASA's militaristic beginnings. Now whether one thinks the Internet is a benefit to humanity today given it's cold war inception, debatable...
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline stack

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 07:07:11 AM »
Once again, we're left with a bleak image of society. Those who are supposed to lead the charge in educating the masses struggle to find it in themselves to actually research the subject they're intending to discuss, and prestigious journalistic outlets find it difficult to mount a more coherent response than "haha this is obviously stupid!"

Complicated. There are a host of issues woven all throughout this. For one, NdGT is more of a celebrity who is an astrophysicist, not so much the other way around anymore. So I wouldn’t necessarily say he is leading the charge to educate the masses. Just as much as I wouldn’t say B.o.B. is either.  Though FET got a nice bump from the latter’s endorsement way back when.

But back to NdGT. He is an astrophysicist with all of his education and experience leading him to believe the earth is round, we spin and revolve around the sun, we went to the moon, satellites are real, i.e., RET.  So for a person like that, a lot of what is in the FAQ, for example, if he ever chose to review it, might as well be written in a language he doesn’t know. And as the WaPo article somewhat painfully pointed out there are some non-starters for the majority of folks right from the get go. For example, NASA conspiracy. For NdGT that is anathema. That probably ends his wanting to look any further into FET right out of the starting gate.

However, if you flip the argument, the vast majority of FET proponents consider space travel, any manmade space object, something that may even be able to take a picture of earth from way up there, to be fake. The notion of any of it being real is a non-starter for them.

So, in essence, all of this is a bleak image of society. FET is just as guilty as RET is. RET just has a much bigger voice.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 08:49:01 AM »
4 mins in is the well experiment. The FAQ and Washington Post don't help there.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Erathostenes_on_Diameter

Complicated. There are a host of issues woven all throughout this. For one, NdGT is more of a celebrity who is an astrophysicist, not so much the other way around anymore. So I wouldn’t necessarily say he is leading the charge to educate the masses.
Ah. I had considered clarifying this when I wrote the post, but made the wrong call in the end. When I referred to "the masses" I didn't mean those who want to learn - much better educators are available to them. "The masses", as I meant them above, are the people who no longer actively pursue learning, but who still stand to advance their knowledge through entertainment and pop-sci sources.

However, if you flip the argument, the vast majority of FET proponents consider space travel, any manmade space object, something that may even be able to take a picture of earth from way up there, to be fake. The notion of any of it being real is a non-starter for them.
I would still argue that NdGT is much more guilty here than others. Whether you want to criticise some FE'ers or, say, the WaPo article, at least they're able to state their opponents' position, even if they fail to riposte. NdGT fails at the former stage.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 12:52:35 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Mysfit

Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 05:15:41 PM »
4 mins in is the well experiment. The FAQ and Washington Post don't help there.
https://wiki.tfes.org/Erathostenes_on_Diameter
Okee, that's 2 of the wells sorted. And the third?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 05:40:09 PM »
Okee, that's 2 of the wells sorted. And the third?
Electromagnetic acceleration - another thing that Neil failed to account for, or, more likely, is entirely unaware of.

Mysfit, could you please stay on topic? You can ask questions about FE subjects you don't understand in the appropriate forum.
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Mysfit

Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 06:21:58 PM »
Okee, that's 2 of the wells sorted. And the third?
Electromagnetic acceleration - another thing that Neil failed to account for, or, more likely, is entirely unaware of.

Mysfit, could you please stay on topic? You can ask questions about FE subjects you don't understand in the appropriate forum.
It is not off-topic, we are discussing the video, which has 3 wells in the Eratosthenes (ty autocorrect) argument at the 4min mark.
I am not arguing theory, I am arguing that Neil was not 'schooled' by the FAQ or Washington Post, which is the topic.
The link you gave was not the FAQ or an excerpt of the Washington Post, therefore off-topic, but i ignored it's invalidity for sake of argument. I read it all too, because i'm nice.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2018, 09:46:45 PM »
It is not off-topic
That's not for you to decide. If you want to appeal a moderator's decision, you need to do so in the appropriate board, not here.

Refrain from further off-topic posting in this thread. Warned.
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Offline Snupes

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 04:38:41 PM »
Nice find. On another note, can a group of astronauts be "a conspiracy of astronauts" from now on?
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i also took an online quiz that said i was a giraffe.  and i guess you're dumb enough to believe that i must be because the internet said so.

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 05:42:50 PM »
However, if you flip the argument, the vast majority of FET proponents consider space travel, any manmade space object, something that may even be able to take a picture of earth from way up there, to be fake. The notion of any of it being real is a non-starter for them.
I would still argue that NdGT is much more guilty here than others. Whether you want to criticise some FE'ers or, say, the WaPo article, at least they're able to state their opponents' position, even if they fail to riposte. NdGT fails at the former stage.

Would you have preferred if, for example, he showed instead of the first image, something more reflective of what's in the FAQ, like the second image?

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 06:18:21 PM »
Would you have preferred if, for example, he showed instead of the first image, something more reflective of what's in the FAQ, like the second image?

We would have preferred it if he had actually read anything about something he was attempting to criticize.

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Offline stack

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 06:29:04 PM »
Would you have preferred if, for example, he showed instead of the first image, something more reflective of what's in the FAQ, like the second image?

We would have preferred it if he had actually read anything about something he was attempting to criticize.

I get that. I'm just trying to get at an example of what that preference might have looked like. One that would have satisfied what amounts to be a counter argument to his criticism and how it should have been taken into consideration.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2018, 11:30:01 AM »
Yes, I would say that would be a small step in the right direction (although Tom's response is exactly right). The visuals should attempt to represent the argument he's attacking, but I'm more concerned with what he actually said than the accompanying video.
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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 12:10:17 AM »
Rather haughty considering  it took no less than 3 attempts to get my totally legitimate Google Earth analysis of Nick Sangetta's Pikes Peak video that irrefutably proves curvature to survive your attempts to classify it as spam. Moreover,   you have not attempted yet to undebunk it.

When will you provide me your rebuttal? I'm looking forward to receiving and responding to your defense of your Flat Earth.

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Offline junker

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Re: A missed gem - the Washington Post schools NdGT on our FAQ
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 03:17:25 AM »
Rather haughty considering  it took no less than 3 attempts to get my totally legitimate Google Earth analysis of Nick Sangetta's Pikes Peak video that irrefutably proves curvature to survive your attempts to classify it as spam. Moreover,   you have not attempted yet to undebunk it.

When will you provide me your rebuttal? I'm looking forward to receiving and responding to your defense of your Flat Earth.

I really tried to be patient with you. Have a few days off to review the rules.
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