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Messages - jack44556677

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Behind the Curve
« on: March 03, 2019, 10:36:13 AM »
I think the point is that they were not exactly out to document the community and try to find the best representatives to explain or defend it critically.  To do so would be political and career suicide, not to mention only "entertaining" to a select few, which is why none of us should expect any such main-stream source to provide one.  Like the socialist's feel of Bernie running for president, it sucks he's not really socialist... but at least he's raising the brand!  I feel the same way about this "documentary". They could have done much better, but it raises the brand.

They found what they found, they documented what they documented. No one learned anything, everyone went home thinking "those lonely deluded idiots, how sad" and went back to their daily grind. To the average viewer, the existing prejudice that flat earth supporters are stupid ("Behind the curve") and suffering from psychological malady will be further solidified.

I did really like the fact that it encouraged, in several scenes, the "learned" to reach out and engage with flat-earther's as opposed to immediately ostracize and deride them.  This stands in harsh juxtaposition to the only clips of experimentation and/or critical evaluation of flat earth being used to demonstrate to the audience that the flat earther's are incompetent, misguided, and deluded.

What do you guys think about the laser gyroscope? I had misremembered something and thought it was all garbage/hoax especially because the scene is SO HOKEY, but it turns out Michelson-Morley did end up detecting the rotation of the earth, just not it's motion in any direction through space/ether.

Anyway, do you guys think the laser gyroscope (or any gryoscope, pendulum) proves that the earth is rotating around a center point?  Is this really a problem for the flat earth concept? Especially since one could argue that the laser gyroscope (interferometer) also proves that the earth is not moving through space which would be a major monkey wrench for the heliocentric model and a hell of a lot more.

Announcements / Re: On "Behind The Curve"
« on: March 03, 2019, 09:22:40 AM »
we may only comment that it is a non-compelling argument to consult with psychologists rather than to seek the consultation of scientists and experimenters...demonstrating truth on empirical grounds

Arg! It is even more infuriating than that.  They DID have some legitimate scientists and experimenters, but then had them talk about how flat-earth made them "feel" and what they thought it meant for the human race ( like calling an expert witness and only asking them about their weekend ).  They only showed or talked about flat earth in terms of specific facts/arguments and experimentation for the purpose of derision.  However, this may just by CYA though ("cover your ass") because it is in no way a career boost to have pro flat-earth projects associated with you.

The one thing positive to say about it was that it encouraged "learned" people to reach out to flat-earther's and engage rather than the existing default of mandated social banishment and derision. Of course it does so while deriding those very people with the central thesis and title ("Behind the curve").  One of the psychologists, whose greater message I really agreed with, even went so far as to say that the people that believe in the flat-earth are "lost" and need to be "saved" to become useful to society again.

It was driving me nuts when the laser gyroscope scene came up.  It was completely disingenuous and based on my remembering of Michelson-Morley, a complete hoax/fraud!  I was taught in high school that in an "inertial frame" there was no experiment that one could do to prove that they were in motion (either in relation to the axis of the earth, or to the sun, or the galaxy etc.) and that Michelson-Morley had confirmed this yet again by attempting to re-orient the apparatus and finding no variance (which was very unexpected).  I did some more research and found that shortly afterwards, they did more tests with a ring interferometer setup and DID detect the rotation of the earth that they expected to find, just no motion through space (the (a)ether) in any direction regardless of orientation of the apparatus which they also expected to find. I had to ask the question over at straight-dope (highly recommended) Behind The Curve - The Straight Dope

In my mind there is a mutually-exclusive thing going on here.  Either you decide that light has yet another special exception property (doesn't it have enough already?!) or you rationally/logically accept that in the direction of motion, if you recede the target away from the light at some velocity, the light WILL effectively be moving slower from the perspective of the receding target by that same velocity factor.  It DOES allow for the detection of universal motion, which may bum you out if you are a relativist, but it's not so bad!  On the negative side for the Flat-Earth position, it means the world is rotating (just juggle it, it doesn't seem that hard). And on the up-side, it proves/strongly suggests that we are not moving in space in any direction (not up, not down, not side to side... no motion except rotation).

I read your Laser Gyroscope page, and I don't think you're going to win this one.  I like it, "It's all vibration!".  I highly doubt that would explain Foucault's pendulum, which is what this is ALL about.  If Foucault's pendulum works, then so does the MEMS Gyroscope and the Gyrocompass, and for the same reason.  I would be intrigued by an interpretation of the mems gyroscope that does not involve the rotation of the world, but I think Occam's razor could have this one....  I just tried a thought experiment, though I'm not sure I was successful...  If the MEMS gyroscope works by having one edge bend towards the earth and the other edge raise towards the north pole (or south pole, I suppose) wouldn't it fail to register the speed of rotation of the earth at the poles? (because the force would be equally apportioned across all 4 springs and balance out, and there would be no bend/dip)

Anyhow, I find it HIGHLY unlikely (for the conceptual reasons listed above) ... But if the Laser Gyroscope was actually being affected by seismic disturbance then inducing vibration or insulating from it should adjust the "noise" that you propose it is (I have little doubt it will affect it, but I bet it won't affect it much).  Hang it from fishing line inside a container you then evacuate all the air out of. Hang it from helium balloons.  This is the kind of science that can be knocked out in a day.

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