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Topics - Venus

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Flat Earth Q&A / The "Conspiracy"
« on: January 10, 2017, 12:19:03 AM »
I've just noticed that the wiki "Conspiracy" page has been updated and now claims that NASA still does not know what shape the planet is, and they have never been to space.
All the "fake" space travel is because of the Cold War, and USA wanting to prove they had military dominance.
Check it out here ... https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy#Motive_of_the_Conspiracy

However ... as of November 6, 2013, a total of 536 people from 38 countries have gone into space according to the FAI guideline.
Of the 536, three people completed only a sub-orbital flight, 533 people reached Earth orbit, 24 traveled beyond low Earth orbit and 12 walked on the Moon.

Space travelers have spent over 29,000 person-days (or a cumulative total of over 77 years) in space including over 100 person-days of spacewalks.

Also 3 countries - USA, Russia and China have sent manned spacecraft into space.

Questions ...
1. What are Russia and China's reasons for "faking" space travel?
2. How do you account for the fact that 536 people from 38 countries are running around the world, doing interviews etc. Are all of these other countries in on the conspiracy too?
3. We have the technology, why do flat earthers continue to deny we have conquered space?

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Flat Earth Q&A / Curvature of the Horizon
« on: September 10, 2016, 03:03:48 PM »
Okay I agree that curvature of the horizon from left to right is not visible from the surface of the earth.
What I am wondering is what sort of curvature would you expect to see... would it be in a north south direction? An east west direction?

If you expect to see curvature what happens when you are in the middle of the ocean (or somewhere else where you could see the horizon in all directions) and turn around 360 degrees? Would you expect to see the horizon at a lower level when you have turned 180 degrees and then rise up again as you complete your 360 degree rotation?

Just wondering what the flat earth believers expect to see when they look at the horizon and declare "It's flat, no curvature there". But especially what would you expect to see if you could turn around 360 degrees and see the horizon in all directions. Isn't a flat horizon as you rotate around 360 degrees what you would expect to see if the earth is a sphere?

Because the flat horizon is the major point which seems to persuade people that the earth is flat. But it seems illogical to me that people would expect to see a curve down to either side when eg viewing a picture of the horizon.
Yet in reality there is curvature, but just not side to side as we look toward the horizon, instead the earth curves away from you - in every direction - as you look toward the horizon and rotate 360 degrees. And the fact that you could climb the crows nest of a ship and see further is irrefutable - after all isn't that why they had crows nests in the first place? "Land Ahoy!" So that they could see further over the horizon to see other ships coming or land in the distance. And also the curvature over the horizon is the reason lighthouses are built very tall?

3
Is there another sun somewhere that is invisible to us or something?
Cos the Spherical earth/heliocentric system explains these observations perfectly !!



4
Flat Earth Debate / Definition of a Scientific "Theory"
« on: June 10, 2016, 01:19:20 PM »
In the "About" section on the Home page of this website it says
"This is the home of the world-famous Flat Earth Society, a place for free thinkers and the intellectual exchange of ideas.
This website hosts information and serves as an archive for Flat Earth Theory.
It also offers an opportunity to discuss this with the Flat Earth community on our forums."

As a scientist I am offended by your use of the phrase "Flat Earth Theory" in the 3rd sentence of your "About" statement.
The word "Theory" in a Scientific context means ...
"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.
Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.
A scientific theory can also be used to make predictions"

In everyday life a theory means a guess or a hunch, but in science, a theory is neither. In Science a THEORY is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits ALL the observations, and can be used to make predictions about future phenomena.
I might add that a scientific theory never "invents" explanations (such as the 'Shadow Object', 'gears' in the sky, or maps which distort the sizes of countries, continents and seas and their relationship to each other in terms of size.
And in general a scientific theory does not disregard existing scientific theories (such as the Theory of Relativity, and the Universal Theory of Gravitation etc) without first providing observational evidence and repeated testing and confirmation of these observations. And of course having these refutations accepted by peer reviewers and publication in an acceptable scientific journal.

In science, a theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be.
In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. In Science Laws describe, Theories explain.
In science the Theory of Evolution is as solid as the Germ Theory, and the Copernican Theory is as solid as the Cell Theory

Scientific theories are usually supported by many peer reviewed papers which are published in respectable and acceptable Scientific Journals (the list of currently acceptable journals can be found at http://www.omicsonline.org/scientific-journals.php )
I cannot find any published papers supporting the flat earth model on OMICS

The process of peer review is daunting ... and can take years ... but to give you an idea of how difficult it is to achieve publication of the latest scientific research, and for your entertainment ... here's a little look at what scientific review means ...


The phrase "Flat Earth Theory" is a misnomer.
At best ... it is a model, and should be noted as such !!

So perhaps the FE'ers should get out and actually do some observations and experimentation (perhaps even buy a telescope!!), write some research papers, have them peer reviewed, and published on one of the scientific journals listed on OMICS.
You could start by organising someone in San Francisco and someone else in Seattle to repeat Eratosthenes measurements of the shadows from a stick on the equinox, then find some mathematician to do the calculations.
This is how Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth ... with amazingly accuracy !!


Perhaps then we might start to take you seriously.

5
Ok so the FE'ers completely dismiss photographic evidence of 14,223 photos from the Apollo missions taken in the 60's and early 70's.
These photographs cannot be CGI, so apparently they must have all been painted, or drawn by hand, or something ??? ALL 14,223 of them !!
OK so here another lot of photos for you guys to dissect ... and they have NOTHING to do with NASA!!!

The satellite Himawari 8 weather satellite was launched by Japan on 7th October 2014 and became operational on 7th July 2015. It is stationed 22,000 miles (35,405 km) above Papua New Guinea.
It takes a photo of the earth every 10 minutes, which means so far it has taken almost 48,000 photos of the earth, and all of these photos can be found on the website himawari8.nict.go.jp
Each photograph is a single true color snapshot of the earth in one frame.

I challenge any FE'er to PROVE that these photos are either CGI, or NOT actual photographs

These are the satellite photographs that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology uses. And personally I would say it is incredibly accurate. In fact I just went outside and not a cloud in the sky ... then I checked the latest Himawari photo... no clouds over my city !!
Not only that but knowing that our weather always comes from the west... I can accurately predict whether it will be sunny or cloudy for the rest of the day... and I can see that it will cloud over in the next hour or so !!

So realistically you would need a whole team of CGI artists to create one of these pictures every 10 minutes. So I guess that the team of artists has to check the weather forecast in every city and in every country region and all over the oceans and seas of the whole pacific region so they get the clouds right !! So now you need at least double the number of people ... cos somebody has to probably call every city and ocean liner and say "is it sunny right there now?" and then say to the artists "ok Tokyo is sunny delete the clouds" "Cyclone hitting Cairns ... whack it on the CGI Joe" ...

But wait on ... the weather forecast is actually made using the information from these satellite photos !!! We know about impending cyclones BECAUSE of these satellite photos  ... DUH !!!!

Ok so the whole shot of the earth looks great...but you can actually ZOOM in ... click the plus sign at the top right and zoom in, let it refresh and keep zooming in ... now how many CGI artists would it take to draw that?? Which is only a small fraction of the whole view of our planet that Himawari uploads ... every TEN MINUTES !!
Now if I am not mistaken the CGI would have to be drawn at that maximum magnification with that detail to be able to zoom in like that ... and from some very basic calculations I can see a rectangle about 1000km high by 2000km wide or about 2 million sq km ... the whole view of half the earth is about 250 million sq km ... so these CGI "experts" have to draw 125 pictures of the maximum magnification size and detail, know the exact cloud cover in every city and every little town, stitch them all together and upload ....  EVERY 10 MINUTES !!!! 24 hours every day, 365 days a year !!! Yeh right !

Oh and you can do animations also ... cyclones in the northern hemisphere rotate clockwise, those in the southern hemisphere rotate counter clockwise !
And interestingly if you go back to 9th July 2015 (use the calendar at the top) you can see this https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/07/07/a-train-of-typhoons-is-chugging-across-the-pacific-ocean-and-landfalls-loom-for-china/

The ball is in your court... these photos are real, up to you FE'ers to prove they aren't !!

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Flat Earth Debate / Apollo mission photos are NOT fake !
« on: June 02, 2016, 06:59:03 PM »
If you visit this website https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/albums you can view 14,223 photos taken during the Apollo missions from 1963 to 1972.

Now if you are old enough you will remember that in the 1960's and 1970's photographs were taken with a camera which had film in it. In fact digital cameras were not available until the late 1990's.
The film from a camera was developed to create a negative, and the negative was used to print a photo. The rolls of film from these missions were developed and printed when that particular mission returned to earth. And the best of them were made available to the public at that time - on television, in magazines and in books.

Also at the time the best computer graphics were along the lines of this 1975 rendering of a teapot - this one was the best ever produced at that time, and this is the original size it was created.


So there was no CGI used in any of these photographs, it was just not possible to create images with CGI such as the ones from the Apollo mission, and computer photo editing was not pioneered until the 1980's (Adobe Photoshop was not released until 1987), so they were not digitally enhanced or created or "faked" in any way.

These photos were not drawn or painted - grab a copy of "the blue marble" (below) and enlarge it and try to prove it is a painting!! You can't because it is a real photograph, taken on December 7th 1972 from a distance of 45,000 km (28,000 miles) from the earth with a 70-millimeter Hasselblad camera with an 80-millimeter Zeiss lens!!! It has been digitally scanned so it can now be viewed by anyone !!


In the 60's and 70's photos could only be changed by actually painting out any blemishes etc, and this was always so obvious that it was never done for magazine covers or advertisements the way it is today. There is no way that any of these photographs were either manually or digitally manipulated in the 60's or 70's. At that time everyone was fascinated by space and space travel, and anyone my age will remember seeing many of these photos at the time. They have not been created just for the internet !!

Fourteen thousand two hundred and twenty three photographs of proof that man landed on the moon, and the earth is a globe !!
Enjoy them :-)

7
Questions for FE'ers ...

"What, if anything, would ever change your mind"?

"If you believe you will never change your mind, why not ??"

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IMHO the biggest problem with the FE Model is the lack of a decent map which shows all countries, continents and oceans in their correct relation to each other and correct proportions to each other.
So far both FE maps I have seen are a major distortion of reality - continents the wrong shape or size, distances between continents are grossly misrepresented and you can't even agree between yourselves which map is correct.
But I'm sure you will all agree that when you drive long distances eg from east to west across the USA, Australia or Europe, that the maps you can buy in petrol/gas stations give you very accurate distances. And when we see the map of just one country it's shape is fairly accurate.
But this seems to be a HUGE stumbling block for the FE'ers, as every map projection introduces distortion in one way or another. Now this is because the earth is spherical and although it is easy to create a globe of the earth with all countries, continents and oceans in correct sizes in relation to each other, this is an impossible task when drawing maps on flat pieces of paper.

BUT ... if the earth is actually flat, then drawing a map which shows all countries, continents and oceans in the correct proportions to each other should be a super easy job !!

For your interest this website http://thetruesize.com might help you see how much distortion occurs when a spherical earth is projected onto a flat map.
From the "About" page of this website - "It is hard to represent our spherical world on flat piece of paper. Cartographers use something called a "projection" to morph the globe into 2D map. The most popular of these is the Mercator projection.
Every map projection introduces distortion, and each has its own set of problems. One of the most common criticisms of the Mercator map is that it exaggerates the size of countries nearer the poles (US, Russia, Europe), while downplaying the size of those near the equator (the African Continent). On the Mercator projection Greenland appears to be roughly the same size as Africa. In reality, Greenland is 0.8 million sq. miles and Africa is 11.6 million sq. miles, nearly 14 and a half times larger."

So I had a little play around with it... took some screen dumps ... and these were my results...

Australia superimposed on Africa - The bipolar map shows Australia almost the same size as Africa and the unipolar map (with the north pole in the centre and Antarctica around the rim) show Australia as being about half the distance from north to south as it really is.


Australia and China superimposed on Africa (I rotated China)


Australia, China and USA (the 48 contiguous states only) superimposed on Africa (China and USA Rotated)


Australia superimposed on USA (48 contiguous states)


China superimposed on USA (48 contiguous states)


Greenland as shown on Mercator Projection - it looks almost as large as Africa !!!


Greenland superimposed on Africa - showing the terrible distortion of the Mercator Projection especially closer to the poles. Which makes sense because closer to the poles the lines of longitude get closer together until they all meet at each of the poles, whereas on a Mercator Projection the lines of longitude run parallel from north to south


And the most distorted continent on the Mercator Projection is .... no prizes for guessing .... Yep you got it !!! ANTARCTICA !!


Have a play around with this site... it really highlights the impossible task of fitting a spherical earth onto a flat map and yet still have the sizes of all of the countries and continents in proportion to each other.

So there's your challenge Flat Earthers ... come up with a map that works ... until you can you are up shit creek in a barbed-wire canoe using a toothpick as an oar !!

But I guess you will all just say that "they" (whoever they may be) have lied to us about the sizes and shapes of all of the countries, continents and oceans !! To which I say... get in your car, set your trip meter to zero, and drive !!

PS - Interesting to superimpose Russia onto USA, and Canada onto USA. Also USA (all 50 states included) is actually larger than China !

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