The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Technology & Information => Topic started by: Rushy on May 09, 2018, 07:31:55 PM

Title: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Rushy on May 09, 2018, 07:31:55 PM
IP addresses aren't personally identifiable information, and their connection status would be logged by your ISP anyway (which no doubt has Google analytics interacting with them regardless). I don't see how any of this is effective at stopping the "Google Overlords" from reaping data that's anonymized already.
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Baby Thork on May 09, 2018, 07:36:45 PM
IP addresses aren't personally identifiable information ...

Yeah, you keep saying that
https://www.enterprisetimes.co.uk/2016/10/20/ecj-rules-ip-address-is-pii/

From an IP address you can infer a location. It is none of Google's business where I am from.
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Rushy on May 09, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
That same article says IP addresses only count as PII if you also gave the website your real name, email address, and physical address. This website doesn't record one of those three things. It only counts as PII if the website also possesses information that could link you directly to the IP address, which we don't, so it still isn't PII.
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Baby Thork on May 09, 2018, 07:51:41 PM
This forum also records all of our posts ... and there is enough data on here to know exactly who I am. So it is PII.
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 09, 2018, 08:51:03 PM
You might not have a fixed IP. On boards I've moderated I found bans by IP (to stop Trolls) notoriously unreliable as some ISPs route multiple people through the same IP.
Also, I really don't think Google care that much what you're up to.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: JohnAdams1145 on May 10, 2018, 05:19:28 AM
I can demonstrate an easy ban-evasion tactic for many game servers that ban by IP and any websites using plain HTTP, as well as IP ban evasion for websites secured by TLS (this requires a bit more work with TLS certificates, particularly dealing with trust and all of that).

I'm aware that fake account information is most likely against the Terms of Service of any of the services, and have not created any accounts with fake information.

Simply:
1. Sign up for any PaaS provider that supports Node (Heroku, Google App Engine, AWS)... Usually PaaS has a more flexible free tier than IaaS, which is important because you want fake account information.
2. Install https://github.com/mhzed/wstunnel as your app.
3. Invoke wstunnel from your local command-line.
4. Profit.

Of course, if the IP address comes back to a residential network that's at your house... That's pretty good circumstantial evidence, as most people do not run proxy servers.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 10, 2018, 07:59:07 AM
I can demonstrate an easy ban-evasion tactic
Congratulations, you have demonstrated a high-schooler's level of understanding of networking, though you managed to overcomplicate your process to oblivion. Why did you think anyone would care?

More importantly, what does your arcane knowledge of proxies have to do with the claim that IP addresses can be personally identifiable?
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Baby Thork on May 10, 2018, 11:40:31 AM
You might not have a fixed IP. On boards I've moderated I found bans by IP (to stop Trolls) notoriously unreliable as some ISPs route multiple people through the same IP.
Also, I really don't think Google care that much what you're up to.
Google likes to keep its friends close and its enemies closer. I'm exactly the sort of person they want data on ... because I actively try to keep it from them. I'm the guy that is hard to advertise to. I'm the shadow on the interweb, the vigilante with a grudge, the fly in the ointment, the citizen that won't conform, the rebel with a cause. I'm dangerous.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2egfz8w.png)
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: ElTrancy on May 10, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
IP addresses aren't personally identifiable information ...

Yeah, you keep saying that
https://www.enterprisetimes.co.uk/2016/10/20/ecj-rules-ip-address-is-pii/

From an IP address you can infer a location. It is none of Google's business where I am from.

Actually it really is Google's business. Google has a Privacy Policy page, and a Terms of Service page. Both state that google can collect information on you, I.P. Addresses included. If you have a problem with this, don't use the internet.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on May 10, 2018, 01:13:19 PM
Actually it really is Google's business. Google has a Privacy Policy page, and a Terms of Service page. Both state that google can collect information on you, I.P. Addresses included. If you have a problem with this, don't use the internet.

Or you can just, you know, configure your browser not to send your information to Google.

I use five privacy-related browser extensions:
There are also others such as uMatrix which you can use if you're really paranoid, but they require more work to maintain. The five I listed above are set and forget.

Edit: I should add that Google Analytics is automatically blocked by three of these extensions (Privacy Badger, uBlock Origin and DuckDuckGo), so I don't get tracked by Google here regardless.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: ElTrancy on May 10, 2018, 01:14:49 PM
Actually it really is Google's business. Google has a Privacy Policy page, and a Terms of Service page. Both state that google can collect information on you, I.P. Addresses included. If you have a problem with this, don't use the internet.

Or you can just, you know, configure your browser not to send your information to Google.

I use five privacy-related browser extensions:
  • Privacy Badger (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/privacy-badger17/) to dynamically detect and block trackers.
  • uBlock Origin (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/), primarily an adblocker but also blocks some known trackers.
  • Decentraleyes (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/decentraleyes/), which caches static content from content providers locally to avoid passive tracking through the hosting of static files like jquery.
  • Cookie AutoDelete (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/) to delete cookies from (non-whitelisted) websites after I close their tab.
  • DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/duckduckgo-for-firefox/), which aside from replacing the default search engine with DuckDuckGo, provides its own tracker-blocking functionality.
There are also others such as uMatrix which you can use if you're really paranoid, but they require more work to maintain. The five I listed above are set and forget.

You really don't need to hide your I.P Address if you're a normal citizen though...
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on May 10, 2018, 01:21:10 PM
You really don't need to hide your I.P Address if you're a normal citizen though...

This is too vague a statement to respond to. What do you mean by "hide your IP address"? You can't hide it in connections you make since it is what identifies you on the Internet, but there is quite a big difference between obfuscating your IP address with a proxy and having a megacorporation forever storing your every online move associated with your IP address.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: ElTrancy on May 10, 2018, 01:25:19 PM
You really don't need to hide your I.P Address if you're a normal citizen though...

This is too vague a statement to respond to. What do you mean by "hide your IP address"? You can't hide it in connections you make since it is what identifies you on the Internet, but there is quite a big difference between obfuscating your IP address with a proxy and having a megacorporation forever storing your every online move associated with your IP address.

As in unless you're doing something illegal, why do you need to hide your IP address? And having a problem with them storing your online data, is like saying that a phone does the same thing, even though it says that they have the right to use browser and data information in a court. You sign away a lot of freedom while using electronics, and IP address can be shared throughout a large amount of people, IE a school or company. It makes zero sense to hide it. Is this a better statement?
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on May 10, 2018, 01:31:08 PM
As in unless you're doing something illegal, why do you need to hide your IP address? And having a problem with them storing your online data, is like saying that a phone does the same thing, even though it says that they have the right to use browser and data information in a court. You sign away a lot of freedom while using electronics, and IP address can be shared throughout a large amount of people, IE a school or company. It makes zero sense to hide it. Is this a better statement?

No, it's a worse one. Nobody "signs away" anything by using a computer. You're confusing terms of use of specific online services with the use of a machine.

You don't need to be doing something illegal to worry about your IP address being stored, but hyperfocusing on the IP address part is probably why you're getting confused. Google collects too much information from too many different sources about people already. If we can do something small to anonymise that data a little bit better, such as obfuscating part of an IP address, that is an improvement.

I would be equally in favour of, say, anonymising user agents. The fact that we're talking about IP addresses is incidental.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: ElTrancy on May 10, 2018, 01:45:28 PM
As in unless you're doing something illegal, why do you need to hide your IP address? And having a problem with them storing your online data, is like saying that a phone does the same thing, even though it says that they have the right to use browser and data information in a court. You sign away a lot of freedom while using electronics, and IP address can be shared throughout a large amount of people, IE a school or company. It makes zero sense to hide it. Is this a better statement?

No, it's a worse one. Nobody "signs away" anything by using a computer. You're confusing terms of use of specific online services with the use of a machine.

You don't need to be doing something illegal to worry about your IP address being stored, but hyperfocusing on the IP address part is probably why you're getting confused. Google collects too much information from too many different sources about people already. If we can do something small to anonymise that data a little bit better, such as obfuscating part of an IP address, that is an improvement.

I would be equally in favour of, say, anonymising user agents. The fact that we're talking about IP addresses is incidental.

Oh...Well, I admit that I am wrong. I'm not exactly the keenest in subjects, so I might have messed up a few things. I apologize.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Rushy on May 10, 2018, 03:24:33 PM
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear,  comrade!
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Lord Dave on May 10, 2018, 04:35:20 PM
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear,  comrade!
That's why they put in the 5th Amendment in America: So we know who the mobsters and criminals are.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: ElTrancy on May 10, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear,  comrade!
That's why they put in the 5th Amendment in America: So we know who the mobsters and criminals are.

Did you mean the 4th?
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Baby Thork on May 10, 2018, 07:48:27 PM
Actually it really is Google's business. Google has a Privacy Policy page, and a Terms of Service page. Both state that google can collect information on you, I.P. Addresses included. If you have a problem with this, don't use the internet.

Or you can just, you know, configure your browser not to send your information to Google.

I use five privacy-related browser extensions:
  • Privacy Badger (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/privacy-badger17/) to dynamically detect and block trackers.
  • uBlock Origin (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/), primarily an adblocker but also blocks some known trackers.
  • Decentraleyes (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/decentraleyes/), which caches static content from content providers locally to avoid passive tracking through the hosting of static files like jquery.
  • Cookie AutoDelete (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/) to delete cookies from (non-whitelisted) websites after I close their tab.
  • DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/duckduckgo-for-firefox/), which, aside from replacing the default search engine with DuckDuckGo, provides its own tracker-blocking functionality.
There are also others such as uMatrix which you can use if you're really paranoid, but they require more work to maintain. The five I listed above are set and forget.

Edit: I should add that Google Analytics is automatically blocked by three of these extensions (Privacy Badger, uBlock Origin and DuckDuckGo), so I don't get tracked by Google here regardless.
I also use Cloudflare for my DNS instead of google or my ISP.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on May 10, 2018, 07:51:25 PM
I also use Cloudflare for my DNS instead of google or my ISP.

CloudFlare's DNS provides no advantages over your ISP's DNS if your ISP really wants to spy on you.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Baby Thork on May 11, 2018, 04:11:02 PM
I also use Cloudflare for my DNS instead of google or my ISP.

CloudFlare's DNS provides no advantages over your ISP's DNS if your ISP really wants to spy on you.
Cloudflare is certainly faster.

Cloudflare delete all records within 24 hours ... my ISP doesn't.

When I want to watch naked ladies my ISP blocks it. I need to get added to a list to activate pron. I'm not telling my ISP that I'm a pervert. Its none of their business. I have Opera browser with its built in VPN specifically for adult entertainment. Somehow the combination of using a VPN AND changing my DNS prevents all efforts by my ISP to stop me enjoying some alone time. Doing either by themselves isn't enough and triggers the parental shield thing they enable as standard.

So how much my ISP knows about what I watch I don't know. Maybe they still can see ... but it is odd that they wouldn't then be able to stop me doing so by not serving me the site. They are very aggressive about stopping me from going blind. You can't get onto TORs website, you can't go to tunnel bear ... they block most VPN download sites, as well as pron, to stop you doing what I do and bypassing their filters. They can't stop you downloading Opera ... I'm always one step ahead of the puritans at Sky.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on May 11, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
I'm not telling my ISP that I'm a pervert. Its none of their business.

So instead you tell the Flat Earth Society. Thork logic.

Also yes, a VPN would prevent your ISP from seeing your DNS lookups, but you didn't mention that before.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Baby Thork on May 11, 2018, 04:29:17 PM
The Flat Earth Society isn't going to be asked by my government to serve data on citizens.

I don't know what the laws will be like in 30 years time. 30 years ago you could tell your secretary you'd like to shaft her in the stationary cupboard. Today she can now tell the police and you can be prosecuted for it. How do I know in 30 years they won't fine/prosecute/freeze assets of people retrospectively for watching something they deem illegal in the future? What if in 10 years I want to run for my local council ... and my ISP hands over my browsing history to a newspaper?

... you ended up answering my query. I suspected they couldn't see the dark side of my sexual appetite. The thought of being watched whilst I'm tugging my piggy would really break my rhythm.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Lord Dave on May 11, 2018, 06:20:37 PM
Wwwaaaiiiiitttt...




Your ISP blocks porn sites and TOR?


Damn.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Lord Dave on May 11, 2018, 06:33:10 PM
So, after consulting with another UK citizen its not the law to block porn.  So either you are wrong or your isp is shit.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 11, 2018, 06:36:30 PM
So, after consulting with another UK citizen its not the law to block porn.  So either you are wrong or your isp is shit.
Many mobile providers do block access to adult websites until you prove to them that you're over 18. I'm not too sure of the current legal situation, but there is a strong push to force porn websites accessible in the UK to actually confirm your age before granting access.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Lord Dave on May 11, 2018, 07:05:28 PM
I owe you an applogy, Thork.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40628909



Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Fortuna on May 12, 2018, 08:42:03 PM
No, obviously.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 02:10:21 AM

Cloudflare is certainly faster.

Somehow the combination of using a VPN AND changing my DNS prevents all efforts by my ISP to stop me enjoying some alone time. Doing either by themselves isn't enough and triggers the parental shield thing they enable as standard.


Typically you would think the VPN would be enough, but if it's not, that could mean the VPN isn't configured to be fully routable. In other words, when you do a DNS lookup, you are still hitting your ISP rather than the DNS of the VPN. You can probably do an nslookup and see what DNS server you hit. From the sound of it, I'm guessing you already know this though...
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 02:20:11 AM
Regarding IP addresses as PII... Practically speaking, if you can put an IP with a second form of ID like a first and last name, it's PII. However, it isn't officially mentioned as a form of PII, but the tech world and the internet is one of the least regulated entities out there, so I'm guessing nobody has thought to formally include that in the PII guidelines. As for me, if you know my IP (and I know some of you can find out), and you've been paying attention to my posts, you can likely ID me with a quick google search.

Thork brings up a really good (and scary) point that you don't know what the laws will be in 30 years... You used to be able to get away with saying some shit or doing some shit you later regretted or was unconventional, but now, if you put it out there it stays.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 02:25:30 AM
Furthermore (and this is REALLY scary), with IPv6, it's theoretically possible in 30 years, everyone will be given their own IP address from birth. Sort of like a SSN, or other forms of ID used across the world. Whenever you get online, you are marked with your own IP.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2018, 03:17:06 AM
Furthermore (and this is REALLY scary), with IPv6, it's theoretically possible in 30 years, everyone will be given their own IP address from birth. Sort of like a SSN, or other forms of ID used across the world. Whenever you get online, you are marked with your own IP.

That isn't how IPv6 works, and it couldn't be made to work in that way without a major overhaul of routing infrastructure.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 03:31:30 AM
Furthermore (and this is REALLY scary), with IPv6, it's theoretically possible in 30 years, everyone will be given their own IP address from birth. Sort of like a SSN, or other forms of ID used across the world. Whenever you get online, you are marked with your own IP.

That isn't how IPv6 works, and it couldn't be made to work in that way without a major overhaul of routing infrastructure.

I am aware how networking infrastructure works, and you are correct. However, we are talking about 30 years here....
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 26, 2018, 07:18:23 AM
Furthermore (and this is REALLY scary), with IPv6, it's theoretically possible in 30 years, everyone will be given their own IP address from birth. Sort of like a SSN, or other forms of ID used across the world. Whenever you get online, you are marked with your own IP.

That isn't how IPv6 works, and it couldn't be made to work in that way without a major overhaul of routing infrastructure.

I am aware how networking infrastructure works, and you are correct. However, we are talking about 30 years here....


Yes, because network routing infrastructure has changed so radically in the last 30 years...

Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 10:21:51 AM
Furthermore (and this is REALLY scary), with IPv6, it's theoretically possible in 30 years, everyone will be given their own IP address from birth. Sort of like a SSN, or other forms of ID used across the world. Whenever you get online, you are marked with your own IP.

That isn't how IPv6 works, and it couldn't be made to work in that way without a major overhaul of routing infrastructure.

I am aware how networking infrastructure works, and you are correct. However, we are talking about 30 years here....


Yes, because network routing infrastructure has changed so radically in the last 30 years...

Pardon me, but what do you think the implementation of IPv6 was meant for? It was well known that it would ultimately require an overhaul of all networking devices to accomplish a full implementation.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 10:39:26 AM
Now before y'all get carried away slamming me with rebutles, I just looked at the numbers and there aren't enough possible addresses with IPv6 for our current population anyway... However, what about a 1024 bit addressing scheme?
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Baby Thork on August 26, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
Dammit. I got a new computer some months ago and forgot to switch to cloudfare. This reminded me. Suddenly my browser is much more responsive.

Remembering every setting you have for everything when you get a new computer is such a ball ache. I typically keep a computer for 3 years ... you just forget over time.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2018, 12:57:36 PM
Now before y'all get carried away slamming me with rebutles, I just looked at the numbers and there aren't enough possible addresses with IPv6 for our current population anyway...

The host portion of a /64 alone has enough addresses for everyone on the planet two billion times over. We will run out of MAC addresses long before IPv6 addresses. I would recommend enrolling in a mathematics course at your local community college.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: timterroo on August 26, 2018, 01:04:49 PM
Now before y'all get carried away slamming me with rebutles, I just looked at the numbers and there aren't enough possible addresses with IPv6 for our current population anyway...

The host portion of a /64 alone has enough addresses for everyone on the planet two billion times over. We will run out of MAC addresses long before IPv6 addresses. I would recommend enrolling in a mathematics course at your local community college.

Lol, I thought 4 billion sounded low. I admit I googled it and misread.... I guess posting 5 minutes after I wake up is a bad idea. :)
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: disputeone on September 15, 2018, 09:25:26 AM
This forum also records all of our posts ... and there is enough data on here to know exactly who I am. So it is PII.

>what is a vpn?
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Baby Thork on September 15, 2018, 12:18:36 PM
This forum also records all of our posts ... and there is enough data on here to know exactly who I am. So it is PII.

>what is a vpn?
How would a VPN stop the pictures of my face that I uploaded, the stories about my life that I have told and remove the e-mail address I wilfully gave when I signed up?
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
This forum also records all of our posts ... and there is enough data on here to know exactly who I am. So it is PII.

>what is a vpn?
How would a VPN stop the pictures of my face that I uploaded, the stories about my life that I have told and remove the e-mail address I wilfully gave when I signed up?
Thork is the most easily recognizable person in the UK.
Title: Re: Are IP addresses personally identifiable?
Post by: Baby Thork on September 15, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
Britain should stamp my profile onto the obverse of all our coins.
Title: Re: Re: Protecting IP addresses from google
Post by: disputeone on September 17, 2018, 05:53:27 AM
This forum also records all of our posts ... and there is enough data on here to know exactly who I am. So it is PII.

>what is a vpn?
How would a VPN stop the pictures of my face that I uploaded, the stories about my life that I have told and remove the e-mail address I wilfully gave when I signed up?

How do you expect to hide your identity after posting a picture of your face?
Here, newfriend.
https://pastebin.com/YTAJeHZZ