The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 01, 2018, 08:55:35 PM

Title: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 01, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
It sounds like it was a roaring success:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/699627/flat-earth-conference-uk-birmingham-gravity-nasa-flintoff-musk

Quote
More than 200 believers paid £107 for the three-day convention in Birmingham.
In the conference room of Birmingham's Jurys Inn hotel, delegates bought and sold flat earth merchandise.

And they had an impressive line-up of highly qualified speakers:

Quote
Dave Marsh, an NHS manager who spoke at the conference, said: “My research destroys big bang cosmology.
“It supports the idea that gravity doesn't exist and the only true force in nature is electromagnetism.”
In his speech, Mr Marsh claimed he had disproved planetary motion using a Nikon camera and an app from his back garden

Quote
Dave Murphy, a former graphic designer who now lives “off-grid”, also spoke at the convention.

Quote
Darren Nesbit, a Bolton-based dance musician who spoke at the conference, claimed Earth is diamond-shaped and supported by pillars.
He said: “I’m not saying this is definitely what is going on, but I think it is a plausible model.”

Did anyone on here go? Had it been in London I might have been tempted.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tumeni on May 01, 2018, 09:12:55 PM
£107 to listen/watch them repeat what they've already put up on YouTube?

Not flippin' likely...
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 01, 2018, 09:14:45 PM
£107 to listen/watch them repeat what they've already put up on YouTube?

Not flippin' likely...
There was a web streaming option for something like £20 which I was tempted by but as you say I doubt it's much more than stuff you could find on YouTube.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pickel B Gravel on May 03, 2018, 01:58:09 AM
It seems to have been a very productive convention. I wish I could've gone. I would've liked to hear Dave Marsh's scientific research in person and to hear about the proposed Pac man theory.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 03, 2018, 09:16:59 AM
It seems to have been a very productive convention. I wish I could've gone. I would've liked to hear Dave Marsh's scientific research in person and to hear about the proposed Pac man theory.
Yes, and being an NHS Manager he definitely has all the right qualifications to be taken seriously.
Just had a look at his YouTube channel and, unsurprisingly, he's just a conspiracy theorist. This video for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T11-zKcHzRU

So his argument is basically, "the amateur rocket went very fast very quickly, the Russian one didn't and then starts heading in the wrong direction".

The obvious response to that is the amateur rocket is much lighter and burns much less fuel but more quickly so accelerates much more but for less time, the Russian rockets are much heavier and accelerate more gradually but for longer. I don't know if this was a manned rocket but humans probably couldn't survive the G forces that amateur rocket would have subjected them to. As for it going in the "wrong" direction, the amateur rocket was intended to go up to a certain altitude and then back down again, the Russian rocket is intended to go into orbit so of course can't keep going straight up, it has to turn and start going more parallel to the ground fast enough to achieve orbit, that's what orbit is.

So while the title of the video is right, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, but it does take someone with a rudimentary understanding of rockets and physics which he clearly doesn't have. Which leads me to be suspicious about his other beliefs.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 04, 2018, 07:36:39 AM
You seem to be very quick to judge people's qualifications. I'm glad that "it doesn't take a rocket scientist" when it's you speaking about how you think you're right, though. That would be terrible.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 04, 2018, 09:23:00 AM
The dude is an NHS manager. That tells me he hasn't got a wealth of professional experience in the relevant fields. That is a fact, not a judgement. But hey neither do I, I just have an A-Level in physics and an interest in this sort of thing so I've read a bit. So my qualifications aren't great either.

So fine, he's entitled to his thoughts on this, I am entitled to mine.

He seems to think that because an amateur rocket shoots off like...er, well, a rocket and a Russian rocket accelerates more slowly then that's a smoking gun of something.
And he asserts that the Russian rocket ends up going in the "wrong direction".

I have explained why these things are spurious objections and whatever point he thinks he's making is invalid.
Do you disagree? If so then feel free to chip in and say where you think I'm going wrong.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Treep Ravisaras on May 04, 2018, 12:13:54 PM
Great to see Flat Earthers getting together. Too few of us around, and need to share ideas and develop theory.

I was getting worried though by news article:
Flat Earthers' latest conspiracy involves Australia - Australia is not real (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12043583)

I'm in Australia! But I guess nutters everywhere just like nutters amongst round earthers.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: isaacN on May 06, 2018, 06:53:34 AM
It seems to have been a very productive convention. I wish I could've gone. I would've liked to hear Dave Marsh's scientific research in person and to hear about the proposed Pac man theory.

I think calling what Dave March does “scientific research” is rather misleading. Have you ever been involved in actual scientific research and know what’s actually involved? Has Mr. Marsh published any scientific papers on his work so that his results and methadoligy can be checked and possibly verified?  Saying you’re doing scientific research, and actually doing it are two very different things. Coming out with an idea such as his PAC Man Earth! is not evidence that he has conducted any research, rather it sounds like the product from a random daydream.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 06, 2018, 10:52:22 AM
I would not have paid the £107 (approx $150 US) to attend, probably more importantly, i would not have spent the time to do so, as i personally would have found it tortuous to sit through some of the talks and rankings.

However what it does show is that TFES in the UK is, thankfully, very very small.

200 out of a population of 70 million, that is 0.000286% of the population, or 1 person for every 300,000 people.

These fringe groups can be found everywhere, in fact, i believe over 800 times more people identified with being a Star Wars Jedi knight in the last UK census!
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 06, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
However what it does show is that TFES in the UK is, thankfully, very very small.
This is not the first time this fallacy has come up here, but it absolutely boggles my mind that it still does. For some reason, the RE masterminds here seem to think that attending a relatively expensive event is a pre-requisite for subscribing to certain views, or supporting them.

If 200 people attend a retro gaming convention, does that mean that 200 people in that country, and nobody else, like retro games? Of course not. By that logic, the Labour party should be very scared - after all, only 13,000 people will vote for them nationwide (https://labour.org.uk/conference/). Oh, wait, that's highly unlikely, and the actual number is in the tens of millions.

Much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 06, 2018, 12:02:28 PM
However what it does show is that TFES in the UK is, thankfully, very very small.
This is not the first time this fallacy has come up here, but it absolutely boggles my mind that it still does. For some reason, the RE masterminds here seem to think that attending a relatively expensive event is a pre-requisite for subscribing to certain views, or supporting them.

If 200 people attend a retro gaming convention, does that mean that 200 people in that country, and nobody else, like retro games? Of course not. By that logic, the Labour party should be very scared - after all, only 13,000 people will vote for them nationwide (https://labour.org.uk/conference/). Oh, wait, that's highly unlikely, and the actual number is in the tens of millions.

Much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity.

So why didnt they hold it at a venue that could hold thousands? Probably because they wouldn’t fill it.

The Labour Party (as do most other parties in ther UK) hold annual conventions, but believe it or not, it is not easy to find conference centres that can hold more than that number of people and have a meaningful conference, unless you hold it in a soccer stadium, which then becomes a concert, not a conference.

I know that nearly 500 people attend an annual rally for Riley RM cars (built in the 1940s and 1950s) of which no more than 15,000 were ever built, over double the number that attended TFES convention. It does not mean that millions of people know they exist though......

My point is valid still.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 06, 2018, 12:05:17 PM
So why didnt they hold it at a venue that could hold thousands? Probably because they wouldn’t fill it.
Indeed - I would expect nothing else. 200 is a fantastic turnout for a conference of this type.

The Labour Party (as do most other parties in ther UK) hold annual conventions, but believe it or not, it is not easy to find conference centres that can hold more than that number of people and have a meaningful conference, unless you hold it in a soccer stadium, which then becomes a concert, not a conference.
The Labour Party conference did not fill the venue (far from it), so we know that's not a problem. The problem is with your assumption that every Labour supporter will attend the Labour conference. It is patently absurd, and I suspect you realise this much.

You also mistook the conference for the convention - the two are really rather different - but what else would we expect from you at this point?

TFES convention.
Your terrible background research is showing. TFES had nothing to do with the organisation of the event.

My point is valid still.
What point? That you think every FE'er in the UK attended the conference? It's invalid in multiple ways. There are FE'ers who didn't attend the conference, and there are RE'ers who did.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 06, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
I couldn’t really expect more from you.
Where’s did i say that every labour supporter would attend a conference? You assumed i assumed. You know what they say Assume makes an Ass out of you.
Typical straw man argument, as one would expect.

Ok i will let you prove to me that FErs are a big proportion of the UK population. Show me actual figures of FE believers in the uk?

As for saying it was TFES it is easier to type than ‘uks First Flat Earth Convention”

As for the differences between convention and conference, i suggest you consult a dictionary. Both are used for an assembly of people met for a common purpose OR a meeting of 2 or more people for discussion of matters of a common concern. Please can you advise where they are “really rather different” apart from in the eyes of a pedantic.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conference
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convention

They are both about the same, but then I wouldn’t expect anything else, as being pedantic is the most common form of trying to derail an argument by Fe supporters here.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 06, 2018, 04:07:54 PM
Where’s did i say that every labour supporter would attend a conference? You assumed i assumed.
If your logic is not internally consistent, you're not worth anyone's time. If you believe that the number of the FE convention's attendees strictly equals the number of FE supporters in the UK, you necessarily agree that this carries over to other conferences. If you acknowledge that conference attendance does not automatically equate the number of people with a certain belief or interest, then we no longer need to discuss your "point". In either scenario, you're not looking good.

Ok i will let you prove to me that FErs are a big proportion of the UK population. Show me actual figures of FE believers in the uk?
I have no interest in doing that. I will not disclose things that others don't want disclosed just because it would make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

As for the differences between convention and conference, i suggest you consult a dictionary.
That would be a waste of your time, given that a party convention and a party conference are very distinct terms in the context of the UK's major parties. A convention is a group of high-ranking officials, while a conference is a public event.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 06, 2018, 10:01:23 PM
Where’s did i say that every labour supporter would attend a conference? You assumed i assumed.
If your logic is not internally consistent, you're not worth anyone's time. If you believe that the number of the FE convention's attendees strictly equals the number of FE supporters in the UK, you necessarily agree that this carries over to other conferences. If you acknowledge that conference attendance does not automatically equate the number of people with a certain belief or interest, then we no longer need to discuss your "point". In either scenario, you're not looking good.

Ok i will let you prove to me that FErs are a big proportion of the UK population. Show me actual figures of FE believers in the uk?
I have no interest in doing that. I will not disclose things that others don't want disclosed just because it would make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

As for the differences between convention and conference, i suggest you consult a dictionary.
That would be a waste of your time, given that a party convention and a party conference are very distinct terms in the context of the UK's major parties. A convention is a group of high-ranking officials, while a conference is a public event.

Again typical straw man tactics, telling me what i am thinking.

If you think that telling me the figures will make me feel warm and fuzzy, i guess that confirms that the number is very small, thank you.

And obviously you did not read the dictionary links i sent you. I was not referring to the differences in major party gatherings, again your Strawman.  Pretty much what i expect from you.
Strawman, Dodge, Strawman. Sounds about right.

Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 06, 2018, 10:14:16 PM
If you believe that the number of the FE convention's attendees strictly equals the number of FE supporters in the UK, you necessarily agree that this carries over to other conferences. If you acknowledge that conference attendance does not automatically equate the number of people with a certain belief or interest, then we no longer need to discuss your "point". In either scenario, you're not looking good.

Literally no-one said that every single person who believes in a flat earth in the UK attended this convention so you can stop that straw man nonsense.
But you seem to have this amusing belief that "the tide is turning" and that flat earth belief is soaring. You claimed that extended to the UK.

The first FE Convention in the UK was at the illustrious Jury's Inn, Birmingham in a fairly small room.
Their website is so well maintained that there's still a "Register Now" button on the homepage and the counter is still going (minus 8 days and counting at the time of writing!)
https://www.flatearthconventionuk.co.uk/
Speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician who "claimed Earth is diamond-shaped and supported by pillars".
It's all so embarrassingly low rent for a movement you like to paint as marching unstoppably onwards and upwards.
All the coverage I've seen of it has had a mocking tone.
And about 200 people attended. Now, of course, that doesn't mean there are only 200 people in the whole country who believe in a flat earth, but it does give some indication of the level of interest. Compare and contrast

Quote
Last year's Bronycon in Baltimore attracted more than 8,000 people from every continent - including Antarctica.

No, I'd never heard of that either. What the hell is Bronycon? Apparently:

Quote
Did you ever watch My Little Pony as a child? The themes of friendship and love just made you feel all warm inside, right? But did you know that the animated series of 'My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic' has thousands of grown-up fans worldwide? Well, it's true, and they are called bronies.

Source: http://www.gocompare.com/covered/2014/01/nine-niche-conventions-from-around-the-world/

So that's 8,000 people attending a convention for adult fans of My Little Pony. 8,000.
And your mob managed 200 in some back-water hotel in Birmingham.
Forgive me if I don't take your claims too seriously.

As for you "not disclosing" things - no-one is asking for names and addresses, if you have some statistics on UK flat earthers then that would be interested.
If you don't then fine, but this "I know better than you how brilliantly we're doing but I'm not going to tell you" act is fooling no-one.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 06, 2018, 10:35:38 PM
Literally no-one said that every single person who believes in a flat earth in the UK attended this convention so you can stop that straw man nonsense.
Sorry, that's a lie. Your friend decided to compare conference attendance to self-identification with a group. You were guilty of a similar cock-up before, but you were a better sport about it.

200 out of a population of 70 million, that is 0.000286% of the population, or 1 person for every 300,000 people.

These fringe groups can be found everywhere, in fact, i believe over 800 times more people identified with being a Star Wars Jedi knight in the last UK census!

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Finally, you seem to be under the impression that I care whether or not you consider my behaviour to be an "act", or whether it's "fooling" you. So, for the avoidance of doubt: I don't. I said time and time again that I won't disclose information that others don't want to disclose it. This is not changing.

After all, what difference does it make if a few angry people on the Internet are convinced that we're growing? You're neither stifling nor helping our growth - surely you'll agree that my focus is better placed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 06, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
My friend (?!) just gave how many people attended the conference as a percentage of the UK population.
He made no claim as far as I could see that no-one else in the country shared the belief of those 200 people.
But as I said, it is an indication of the popularity or lack thereof in the UK.

I'm pretty happy that I didn't know what "bronies" were. Maybe that's more of a thing overseas, in the UK...I'd honestly never heard of it.
I can ask around to see if anyone I know had heard of them. I'm guessing not but maybe this is my ignorance.
If it is then I think I can live with the fact that I didn't know what adult fans of My Little Pony were called.

I'm under no impression that you care what I think. But saying "1 in x people in the UK believe..." is not disclosing any information about anyone.
It's just stating a statistic which, if you can back it up with a source, informs this discussion.
If you can't do that then fine, maybe there's not much research about this in the UK. But give it a rest with the pretence that you are doing so for some unwillingness to "disclose information".

Do I believe you're growing? Yes, I can believe that. Interest in flat earth has indisputably risen of late. But most of that interest is people incredulous or amused about it.
Look at this place. I see new people signing up all the time, mostly trolls or people like me who are just interested that this is a thing, have seen some of the debates and wanted to chip in.

Claims that the "tide is turning" make you sound like a right Cnut*

*that is quite a clever joke, you know.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 07, 2018, 04:09:02 AM
Literally no-one said that every single person who believes in a flat earth in the UK attended this convention so you can stop that straw man nonsense.
Sorry, that's a lie. Your friend decided to compare conference attendance to self-identification with a group. You were guilty of a similar cock-up before, but you were a better sport about it.

200 out of a population of 70 million, that is 0.000286% of the population, or 1 person for every 300,000 people.

These fringe groups can be found everywhere, in fact, i believe over 800 times more people identified with being a Star Wars Jedi knight in the last UK census!

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Finally, you seem to be under the impression that I care whether or not you consider my behaviour to be an "act", or whether it's "fooling" you. So, for the avoidance of doubt: I don't. I said time and time again that I won't disclose information that others don't want to disclose it. This is not changing.

After all, what difference does it make if a few angry people on the Internet are convinced that we're growing? You're neither stifling nor helping our growth - surely you'll agree that my focus is better placed elsewhere.

Dont forget it was you who brought up the link between political party attendances and the gathering of the flat earth followers in the UK, not me.

Are you seriously saying I have a poor understanding of the world around me because i dont know what a “brony” is? Really, that is the most absurd jump to a conclusion i have heard in a long while.

I spend half my life at sea, working for a living, and dont have time to spend watching “My little pony” as we dont get TV here, although I have seen adverts on TV for the little horse toys for kids, I am guessing it is the same thing. I didnt watch those programmes when i was a child, i was too busy out in the real world, and in any case wehy would not knowing about that fantasy programme for kids in any way indicate indicate I have a poor knowledge of the world around me?


As for the world around me it consists of oceans, stars (yes that i can actually see, and observe the different relative motions, such as a rotation around the South Pole) sunsets and sunrises, (that don’t disappear in a moment, like is supposed to happen with a “vanishing point” or with “perspective”) i see meteors, satellites, and other celestial phenomena, It includes seeing Polaris rising north of the equator, never below it, and sees me using instruments to measure the suns angular size. (Which does not change hourly by the way) and celestial observations to plot my position, ANYWHERE on the globe earth.
It involves the use of accurate, and reliable GPS to political my positions, calculating distances between distant points around the earth, and verifying them by steaming at a certain speed to get to where i need to be, at a given time.

I understand Archimedes principle of floatation, and about spherical trigonometry and navigational systems

I know the boiling temperature of Methane, Propane, N butane and ISO butane, and how to carry them, and deliver them, along with the properties and ways to carry crude oils and products.

Which is all a good thing for you, otherwise you wouldn’t have light, heat, plastics, transport, internet, food, medicines Television, and a whole bunch of other things.

All of these things I observe around me, which is the real physical world around me.

Most of the above you FEers seem to not understand or say is fake.

If you want to use the fact that you know about a bunch of adults who watch an animated kids programme and go to a convention is proof that you have a better understanding of the world around you, then I am happy in my ignorance, and rather thankful that I live in the real (you know the physical one) world, rather than some fantasy land....
You have just removed any shred of credibility you might have had by your statement, which is about Par for the course from what I really expect to hear from TFES members.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: hexagon on May 07, 2018, 08:18:30 AM
Just to put these numbers in relation to the interest in real science. At our four spring meetings (each covering different areas) of our national physical society we had more than 10000 attendees with almost everyone giving either a oral or poster presentation. In my home country the number of students who started to study physics roughly tripled over the last 20 years. I assume this is not much different in other countries. Regarding the number of applications we get from countries like China, Korea, India or countries from the Middle East, I guess the increase there is even much, much higher. I also assume similar numbers from other areas of science, engineering and technology.

On the other hand, there seems to be indeed a growing interest in different kinds of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories and extreme political orientations. But I guess this is mainly an effect of the internet, which allows for a higher grade of attention, exchange and organization. You no longer feel alone with you weird ideas.

It is also a win for the classical media to pick up a story like the one of this self-made rocket man compared to going through the thousands of real scientific results published every week and make a compelling story out of it. That's a hard job compared to the few clicks you will maybe generate with this. But it enhances the impression there is something really going on in the field of pseudoscience, especially for their believers...           
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 07, 2018, 08:31:56 AM


Much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity.

The Jury’s Inn has a capacity for 275 delegates (according to its website). If 200 attended then that is less than 75%, and not what I would call “very close to filling its venue”

Where did you get the information about the venues fire safety certificate? Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn? Or are you just making things up again?
Your claim, you need to back it up.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2018, 12:06:14 PM
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 07, 2018, 12:21:41 PM
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.

There we go again, strawmanning.
I never started the conversation about political parties it was you, so stop lying.
And did you read the dictionary links i sent? Obviously not.

How about the assertion that the FE gathering was almost full, when it was less than 75% hmmm, very close to capacity eh?

My statement, was that 200 people out of 70 million turned up. That is not in error, and no matter what you do I to try to spin it, trotting out a completely obscure fact that 40 times more people turn up to a “brony” convention?? (Dedicated to adult fans of a kiddies cartoon show???) really puts it into perspective.

Obviously the kiddies animated show has more importance and draw than overturning the world of physics, and potentially government changing revelations, or is that a reflection on what people in the US (or wherever the “Brony gathering” was)
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2018, 12:24:44 PM
I never started the conversation about political parties it was you, so stop lying.
Who started the conversation is irrelevant - you're still the one who mistook a party conference for a party convention, which serves as evidence that you're not aware of the context.

And did you read the dictionary links i sent? Obviously not.
Just because words can mean something, doesn't mean they universally do mean it in a given context.

How about the assertion that the FE gathering was almost full, when it was less than 75% hmmm, very close to capacity eh?
Your assertion is false.

My statement, was that 200 people out of 70 million turned up.
Indeed - how hilarious that you'd do that. Comparing attendance of a single event to the population of a country, and to the membership of self-identified groups. Hopefully you've learned your lesson.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 07, 2018, 01:17:18 PM
I find it hard to be lectured to by someone who measures the understanding of the world around them by whether you know about a Brony gathering.......

As I said, you really lost credibility with that one.

So you didnt say

“much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity”??

When does less than 75% count as “Very close to filling” or is there some other definition, (Maybe in a different context) that you are using?
And as i can see a number of different publications covered the gathering i am willing to suggest the actual number of genuine FEers was somewhat below 200, once you take out the press, and sceptics, they would have been left with certainly less than 200.

And as for “knowing” more about the numbers of FEers, but cant tell, (your claim, you prove it) However if it makes you feel all grown up and superior to keep that thing a secret, I guess you wont let on.
However I could not see how a society that claims to be transparent is hiding such information? It certainly cannot harm the believers unless it turns out they are in such a small minority’s they become completely insignificant.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 01:44:29 PM
If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you.
My irony-meter just exploded...  :D

This is all quite sweet. I've realised you seem to think that the flat earth movement is actually sweeping the gl...er, plane.
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
By the power of the internet it's easier for crazies to talk to one another.
But this site is hardly booming, most of the posts are from round earthers. The FE Convention in the UK was hilariously amateurish.

I don't think I need to be too worried about us regressing into another dark ages just yet.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2018, 06:19:29 PM
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
Entertain this thought for a moment: let's say that for every x people who find out about the Flat Earth Theory, one of them is going to accept it. I'm sure we'll disagree about the value of x, but that's why I want to leave it undefined here.

Now, let's say that a few years ago, x people would regularly be exposed to our content. Today, it is 10x. Even without me disclosing anything sensitve, you have to be able to discern that the growth of the FE movement's popularity necessarily translates into the growth of the movement itself. This is the very principle behind our "all publicity is good publicity" approach - whether or not you want to believe me that it's working out fantastically is obviously up to you ;)
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 07:17:03 PM
I've already said I'm quite happy to believe you are growing. The internet makes all kinds of crazy ideas easy to spread and if crazy ideas are spread then as you say 'x' percent of people may come to believe them.

I happen to think that x is very low in this case. Let's say a million people in the UK come to believe this. That is, objectively, a LOT of people. But percentage wise...I'd still be unlikely to know many people who believe it if that were the case. I'd suggest the number right now is orders of magnitude less than that. Now, admittedly, you may have a better feel for the numbers than me. But the number of people who attended the conference, the sort of people speaking and the amateurish feel about the whole thing makes me believe you're somewhat deluded if you think that you lot are on the march and are having a big impact.

I sympathise to an extent, I'm an admin on another board which was actually pretty popular back in the day - you don't publish your post stats here but certainly in the upper fora it's what, maybe 50 posts a day? The board I run in its pomp got about 2,500 posts a day, we were quoted in a couple of papers, we had quite successful meetups and I did feel some giddy excitement at the thought that we might grow and grow. Didn't happen of course. But my take on this is you're enjoying your 5 minutes of "fame" a little too much and getting a little deluded about how popular this movement is becoming. Tom is a bit more realistic (see my sig).

But hey, I guess if I'm still here trying to teach Tom about perspective in 5 years time then we'll see who's right...
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2018, 07:32:15 PM
But hey, I guess if I'm still here trying to teach Tom about perspective in 5 years time then we'll see who's right...
There were people like you saying similar things 5 years ago, and 10 years ago. Suffice to say it's likely that we'll outlast you ;)
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 07:36:55 PM
Honestly. I doubt I'll stay here long as even in my short time here I've seen that the same few debates go on over and over again and most debates follow a pretty familiar pattern.
I'm just here to pass time really, it's either that or doing work.
But when the FES has achieved world domination and you are president of the flat earth I'll come back and apologise for doubting you.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: isaacN on May 11, 2018, 08:52:51 PM
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
Entertain this thought for a moment: let's say that for every x people who find out about the Flat Earth Theory, one of them is going to accept it. I'm sure we'll disagree about the value of x, but that's why I want to leave it undefined here.

Now, let's say that a few years ago, x people would regularly be exposed to our content. Today, it is 10x. Even without me disclosing anything sensitve, you have to be able to discern that the growth of the FE movement's popularity necessarily translates into the growth of the movement itself. This is the very principle behind our "all publicity is good publicity" approach - whether or not you want to believe me that it's working out fantastically is obviously up to you ;)

Do you honestly believe that a small gathering of people at a hotel in England is of any signifacence? If you do then you really have to think again. Why would you imagine that such an insignificant number when measured on global terms would have any influence on any thing that really mattered? There have always been fringe groups living on the fringes! and thats the environment you will continue to inhabit. How many chairs of flat earth studies do you currently have at universities any where in the world? The organisers of the flat earth gig in England were a musician, and an office administrator, hardly an earth shattering duo.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 14, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.

You must be talking about the Fire Risk Assessment, (a UK regulatory requirement) not a fire safety capacity. I do wish you would get your facts right before you spout on (ignorantly) about something, of which you are uninformed.

Also having checked the Jurys inn has a much higher capacity than 275, that is the max number it can hold in 1 room, the next largest room can hold 200.

The bottom line is they didnt get anywhere near the venues capacity, as assessed in the Fire Risk Assessment.


Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 14, 2018, 12:57:17 PM
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 14, 2018, 02:33:43 PM
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: edby on May 14, 2018, 04:25:34 PM
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......
What if an FE becomes a trained pilot?
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: jcks on May 14, 2018, 05:17:41 PM
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......
What if an FE becomes a trained pilot?

There is a user here named Treep who claims to be a flat earth pilot (private).
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: edby on May 14, 2018, 05:37:55 PM
I am not sure if he is entirely serious after looking at this post (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8964.msg144984#msg144984).
satellites ... They travel west to east in giant wave formation. None go over the poles.
Quote
I found actually this website shows exactly that:
(https://preview.ibb.co/gLnrec/Untitled.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnBHKc)
However it does mystify me somewhat as to how does it turn the corner? The forces must be enormous if I try to imagine (dangerous thing). I always recommend to stick to what can be observed. However I have never observed an object travel in such waves. I understand it can have great speed, but what makes this peculiar wave shape?
[..]
Title: Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
Post by: Tontogary on May 15, 2018, 12:01:55 AM
Most pilots who are “old school” would, i suggest, know a bit about navigation, unless these days they just follow the numbers on their navigation system.

I am a navigator by trade, as a ships captain, and cannot possibly see how someone who understands navigation can believe the earth is flat.

The quote from Treep, does bring into question his credentials. And it has been suggested by some that he is just a troll........