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Messages - ChrisTP

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1
Technology & Information / Re: Dell TechDirect
« on: June 30, 2020, 07:50:44 PM »
Just finished my first Dell TechDirect self-help dispatch ticket.

Had to replace a motherboard on an in-warranty Latitude 5490. With Dell TechDirect, I was able to login to a portal, create a ticket with a brief description of the issue and troubleshooting steps, then select the part I needed. A few days later, the board arrived, with a return shipping label for the defective board. Very slick. Didn't have to call Dell or talk to a single tech rep, it was awesome!

Yeah, I loved that about Dell self repair.  Lenovo has something similar but it's much harder to get.  We just do the self ticket and they send a 3rd party repair guy to fix it.

Ah, wonder if they'll have some incentive to ditch the repair guy and let people do it themselves now that they risk COVID infection by doing house-calls.
I don't know, there's always a market for the totally tech illiterate that won't want to even try to understand (my sister is one of those self defeating people).

2
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Yea sorry this isn't how it works.
That is exactly how it works.
You don't know what experiences I've had, you've no idea what I've learned through life. not being in the US doesn't "bankrupt" my position.
You are correct.

I do not know your experience.

I didn't write what you have stated I wrote.

It is not the idea of you having never been or even having been to the US which bankrupts your position.

It is your lack of framework provided for interpretation of whatever experience you have had. applied to the subject matter at hand, which bankrupts your position.

That, and of course which you so clearly demonstrate here, a decided lack of understanding.
Which btw, is that most officers are sound and only a few bad apples that get a lot of media coverage ruin it for the rest.
There is some semblance of a framework offered here, but it certainly isn't your entire position.

And I agree with what you wrote, except it doesn't ruin it for the rest.

Too broad a brush.

The people chosen for the police come from society, just like every other occupation.

As far as the rest of it, discipline has and is being taken.

You act like it hasn't.
Ok well I'll remember this the next time you chime in to a topic about rockets with your absolute lack of experience in rocket science or engineering. Worthless indeed.

Yes what I wrote is a broad description. I guess you can round it down to the fact that there are any bad apples at all should not be possible. Police enforcing the law should be lawful. Some aren't and that is not acceptable. Some get found out and disciplined sure, but

A) Why were they able to become an officer in the first place and
B) What about all the ones that haven't been found out yet?

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect every officer to have gone through law school and be the perfect specimen of human, no one is perfect, but you can find footage of some absolute moronic police officers and that shouldn't be possible. You don't need to have experienced it for yourself to see that. How can someone uphold the law while not being lawful? Why were they given such a position? How were they able to keep that position for years? How can I expect the police to protect and serve citizens if there's potentially morons with big egos in the force? These are questions I think desperately need to be answered and corrected in future. It should be progress at least ie; something needs to change.

3
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 30, 2020, 07:35:29 PM »
To add on to Tim’s point about the continuation of racism, the economic conditions that many systemically oppressed black people found themselves in are inherited today as well.
Thomas Sowell proves your stated position is devoid of substance.

Lifestyle choice is not systemic.

You are correct, and I would agree with you except for the fact that it wasn't their choice to live in impoverished locations, with low resources.
Yes, it is.

There are no laws keeping people from living where they want.
It wasn't their choice to be forced to accepting low-paying, low-class jobs.
Yes, it is.

There are no laws prohibiting people from applying for any job they want.
It wasn't their choice that dealing drugs and prostitution was the most sustainable way to live - yes it was their choice to participate, but it was not their choice that it was the most profitable way to survive.
Dealing drugs and engaging in prostitution is certainly a lifestyle choice.

Where did I claim that cost of items is a lifestyle choice?
In fact, if you study inner-city marginalization, you find that many drug dealers attempted to get out of that business and "go legit". Struggling to survive on a legit income is much harder if you are black, poor, and marginalized. <- none of those things are anyone's choice.
Horseshit.

Absolutely no economic data to support this at all.
So, I'm not sure why you call these "lifestyle choices" because nobody chooses their skin color, nobody chooses there they are born, and nobody chooses what socio-economic class they are in from birth.
Your entire post is simply a fake mantra.

Read Thomas Sowell and take it up with him.

I'll take the word of a black professor over yours any day of the week.

Yeah, that was a racist thing to write, so sue me.
I get what you're saying regarding the laws not stopping anyone from doing what they want to do. It's not the law that's preventing holding them back. Poor towns, poor cities, poor countries even, they don't choose to be poor. With poverty comes limited options of survival so if I'm struggling to feed my children and I were desperate enough to go out and steal some bikes or something to put food on the table why not? and this mindset and lifestyle is handed down. If you live in that kind of society all your life you're more likely to keep living that way. In a sense you could say that the only thing holding people back now is themselves and that would be true if it weren't also for the general racism they receive too. It's a complicated subject and not just black and white obviously, but it's not just the law keeping people living like that. People that are wealthy already are likely to have wealthy kids. that grow up making more money and staying wealthy. When you have that wealth to begin with you are in a far better position to stay wealthy. This isn't really something anyone can deny and to be fair, no one would complain about it if they were the ones living on the wealthy side of life.

Since the law isn't stopping you Totallackey, why aren't you a millionaire living a totally legit/lawful lifestyle? Did you choose not to be rich?

4
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Yea sorry this isn't how it works. You don't know what experiences I've had, you've no idea what I've learned through life. not being in the US doesn't "bankrupt" my position. Which btw, is that most officers are sound and only a few bad apples that get a lot of media coverage ruin it for the rest. but IMO Those bad apples shouldn't have made it to their position. So I guess I'd question the education system of the US and the training that police officers receive. when I've seen evidence of those bad apples existing, my point still stands I believe. I don't have an extreme position which I get the feeling you think I do. I just think potential officers should go through more of a trial and better training. I think anyone showing red flags of having a massive ego shouldn't be an officer. I think any officer shown to be abusing their position or breaking the law themselves should be stripped of their position.

Not everyone is cut out to be a law enforcement officer, I know I wouldn't be, so I have nothing against people that do that stuff for a living but I can visibly see some of them aren't capable and shouldn't be an officer. There are cultural differences that make the US and UK police really quite different for sure, but that doesn't mean I don't have any insight into the US police force, especially since the US is under a microscope most of the time.

5
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Because we aren't here to discuss my personal injustices, we're here to talk about whether or not the US police force are competent. This has nothing to do with my life here in the UK. I'm not going to tell you my life story when it has no relevance to the topic (and is really my business whether I share information about my life).
If you have no experience with the American police or forms of injustice then you really have no worthwhile insight in the topic at all.

Neither does Tumeni.

You are incapable of even drawing correlation between any of your experiences and that of persons involved with the American system.

Even offering you the benefit of doubt when it comes to such a function, you do not want to discuss it within this most worthwhile framework due to its exposition demonstrating the bankruptcy of your overall message.
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.

Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something. You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.

6
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Because we aren't here to discuss my personal injustices, we're here to talk about whether or not the US police force are competent. This has nothing to do with my life here in the UK. I'm not going to tell you my life story when it has no relevance to the topic (and is really my business whether I share information about my life).

7
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.

8
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.
Why do you have such an easy time ignoring the injustice of others directed at you?

I know why I do.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, can you explain? I don't think I'm ignoring any injustice and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'injustice of others directed at me'. Which injustice, at who others and how is any of that directed at me?

You say people are trained by life to pull the race card, I agree with you, a lifetime full of racism toward a person would make them quicker to point out racism toward them. I'm fully acknowledging the injustice of racial discrimination.

If you know why you have an easy time ignoring racial discrimination and injustice by all means tell us.

9
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.

10
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: June 25, 2020, 10:21:00 AM »
Quote
The United States has the cleanest industrial technology in the world, by far.
What evidence do you have of this?

11
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 25, 2020, 02:34:47 AM »
Here is the article: https://onezero.medium.com/a-dna-test-told-me-im-white-here-s-why-it-s-wrong-9e6b20f128e4

DNA is majority European. Her parents are from Latin countries. Someone asked her if she was black when she was 10. Proceeds to self identify as black.

35.7% is not a majority, but this article is ridiculous all the same. The DNA test didn't tell her she's white, so why did even she bother saying something so silly as "My DNA test is wrong"?

If you need further evidence ... this was flown at a game this week


This outrageous statement has been referred to the police.
https://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Police-investigating-White-Lives-Matter-banner-15359186.php

And Burnley football club issued the following statement.
Quote from: from the racists at Burnley football club
Burnley Football Club strongly condemns the actions of those responsible for the aircraft and offensive banner that flew over The Etihad Stadium on Monday evening," the club said. "We wish to make it clear that those responsible are not welcome at Turf Moor. This, in no way, represents what Burnley Football Club stands for and we will work fully with the authorities to identify those responsible and issue lifetime bans

And all because someone dared to say white lives matter.

It's a shame that Britain doesn't have freedom of speech like we do.
Well, we do have freedom of speech and anyone can condemn that speech all the same. Regardless though, flying an obviously antagonising banner in the sky during sensitive times is just stupid and can easily be considered purposefully offensive or hate speech. Yes, all lives should matter but the point with BLM is that they don't think all lives matter if black lives don't matter as much. There are memes floating around showcasing why it's stupid to say all lives matter in this context, let alone saying white lives matter...

12
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 23, 2020, 10:28:37 AM »
Quote
Black people live in crime areas because black people commit more crime.
Or another way to look at it is that people commit more crime because they live in an area with more crime, regardless of skin colour. And the reason there happens to be a lot of black people in those areas is because of a long history of racial discrimination.

13
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 22, 2020, 06:27:59 PM »
Statistically, black people are more likely to be stopped
Statistically black people are more likely to commit crime. QED.


things like anonymising CVs will help
They don't want that. White people and far East Asians will outshine all else. You have to appreciate that sub-Saharan Africans and Arabs are not as bright as other races. Map below is IQ map.

This can't be let out of the bag. There must be positive discrimination so that black people don't feel inferior (so the leftists insist). An invisible hand helping them at every turn to the detriment of white and yellow people. Or as Margret Thatcher described it, cutting the heads off the tall poppies.
It's worth noting that IQ per country as the map you posted is not so simple. There are so many factors to consider, culturally, environmentally, nutritionally etc that may skew those results. Also worth not putting too much weight into IQ, it's just an estimate developed with biases.

14
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 21, 2020, 11:54:19 PM »
I've said it before in another thread in a more long winded way but of course everyone has all the same rights but what allows people to move ahead and get far in life or not is how everyone else treats you. It's not about rights, it's about how people are treated based on something that can't be changed. It's sad that people have prejudgement suspicions and fears toward black people. That's the problem. I mean come on, the US had a black president so we know black people can still reach that height but when black people get the police called on them for doing nothing there's a problem.
People have prejudgements about each other for all kinds of reasons - gender, race, social class, what they're wearing, their accent, their age. Lots of things, many of which a person can't change. The video you posted - the black dude was sitting on a wall outside someone's property. If I saw someone (of any race) doing that then I might wonder what they're doing. I doubt I'd call the police though. So yes, I think it's fair to say that whoever did that was over-reacting and the call was probably motivated in part by the guy's race. But the reason for that is statistically black people commit a statistically disproportionate amount of the crime in the US. That isn't because black people are inherently more violent or criminal but simply because crime is correlated with poverty and black families tend to be poorer. And that is because of a load of historic laws which were overtly racist - laws which stopped black families from buying properties in certain areas and stopped them getting mortgages in areas where they were allowed to buy property. And I don't think that's an easy problem to fix, wealth is passed down generations in families so those historic laws are going to have a long-lasting effect.

So yeah, black people will get profiled just like when people hear about a terrorist attack they tend to instinctively blame Islamic extremism - these stereotypes/prejudices aren't baseless, they're based on statistics. And in the video you posted, it may have been frustrating for the black dude to have been approached by the police when he wasn't doing anything wrong but all he had to do was identify himself and I suspect that would have been the end of the matter.

It's also worth noting here that these incidents are, statistically speaking, rare. The stupid bint who called the police on a black man in Central Park on spurious grounds was fired from her job, hopefully things like that will make people think twice before crying wolf.

We need to dispel this myth that black people are being routinely hunted down and killed by a systematically racist police in the US. That just isn't happening. Tom has provided some stats, a vanishingly small number of black people who were unarmed were killed by police last year. More unarmed white people were actually although per capita in terms of the population split between white and black people it did happen to more black people - I have suggested above why they might get profiled and be more likely to be affected though.
The idea that black people should be scared of encounters with the police lest they're gunned down in cold blood is just not borne out by the statistics.

There are occasional incidents and the George Floyd one was a bad one, but the police who did it are in jail so I don't understand what all the signs saying "no justice, no peace" mean. If the people who did it are acquitted then there will be a shitstorm, rightly so. Till then, I don't understand what these protests are intended to change. As you say, the laws to ensure equality already exist, what those policemen did is already illegal. People who do harbour racist views aren't exactly going to change that because of some protests.

Obviously I can't know what it's like being black in the UK. I don't see black people being chased down the street or have racist abuse shouted at them. Quite happy to believe it happens but is it common? I'd say most of the racism in the UK is more subtle - there's good evidence that people with "English sounding" surnames get more response to their CVs, for example. That's not all about race though, plenty of white people have foreign sounding surnames and would be affected by that. And that's an easy fix - anonymise CVs. I do think (and I realise, as a white person I'm on thin ice here) that some black people just look for racism everywhere they look and confirmation bias does the rest. Every perceived slight is deemed racist.

We are currently having ridiculous conversations at work about quota of BAME people at senior leadership level. I seriously don't understand how that is supposed to work, so if a black person leaves and that means we're now not meeting the quota then what, does that mean we have to hire another black person? There is no such thing as positive discrimination, it's an oxymoron. The solution to discrimination is equality, not more discrimination.

TL;DR - I'm not saying that racism isn't a thing now, but I'm not buying into the idea that black people are systematically oppressed these days. Profiled, maybe, but not entirely without basis. And subject to more subtle forms of racism, sure. But aren't we all affected by some forms of bias whether conscious or unconscious? As I said at the start of this ramble, we prejudge people based on all kinds of things about them, many of which they can't change.
Here in the UK racism (at least in my experience) is mostly individuals who get ignored. No one in my social circle is racist other than maybe my grandparents who were mostly ignored when they made random racist comments. I dated a girl for 5 years who's dad was pretty racist but the rest of their family would give him evil glares and tell him to stfu whenever he would say anything racist.. Though ngl there's not many black people in the area of my city that I grew up in so maybe I wasn't exposed to it much. I think racism is far worse in other countries.

Also I believe in equal opportunity not of outcome. I don't think women and people of colour should be hired for jobs just because they are women or people of colour, I think they should be hired because their resume is best. This may not end in having a completely even mix of employees but that's not what matters, What matters is everyone should be given the same chances in life. Again though I may be naive in saying this but we do have equal opportunities and all the same rights now but I guess that won't matter if people are still prejudice toward skin colour and gender. I mean prejudice is important, if I see a group of people loitering on a street corner with their hoods up looking shady I'm going to cross the road even if it turns out they were just waiting for a taxi and thought it was gunna rain, better safe than sorry. :P

I happen to work in an industry that's famously mostly white males but it's slowly becoming more diverse, slowly... because the world has changed for the better and the youth coming in is mixed but the veterans of the industry aren't. This is fine IMO. with time. if we've had black presidents of the US and female prime ministers of the UK etc then there's no limits for them anymore, it's all down to the opportunities they have and the environment they're raised in. With that said, the BLM movement fighting the government when it's not a government problem... Sure, governments can do better to make sure people are well educated but that's about it. It's down to people to change in the end.

15
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 21, 2020, 02:38:44 PM »
@Thork regarding the footballers kneeling, it's kind of a throwaway gesture to make sure they don't come across as insensitive like how every company that's completely unrelated are sending out a statement along the lines of "we care about diversity and black lives matter to us too bla bla". It doesn't hurt anyone and it makes said companies look/feel good, plus it raises awareness I suppose. While I agree with the sentiment that black lives matter the ones that are rioting and causing a ruckus are just bored fools. Those guys are the ones that are damaging their own cause along with their towns. I don't think you should hate on the overall message that's trying to be put out. As Pete said, in every movement you'll get people damaging it from the inside, making the movement look bad. Like feminism where some women proclaim they're feminists because they hate men and proceed to be super toxic and ill informed. God forbid I have one or two people on facebook from school like that who occasionally post dumb, horrible stuff then tag a movement as justification for them being scum.

16
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 21, 2020, 12:31:47 AM »
but when black people get the police called on them for doing nothing there's a problem.



Cool story, bro.
I'm not talking about criminals getting stopped, I'm talking about people being stopped for 'being black while doing this mundane thing' which sadly happens.

EDIT: example;


17
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Black Lives Matter
« on: June 20, 2020, 11:29:52 PM »
I've said it before in another thread in a more long winded way but of course everyone has all the same rights but what allows people to move ahead and get far in life or not is how everyone else treats you. It's not about rights, it's about how people are treated based on something that can't be changed. It's sad that people have prejudgement suspicions and fears toward black people. That's the problem. I mean come on, the US had a black president so we know black people can still reach that height but when black people get the police called on them for doing nothing there's a problem.

19
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes. Here's another show-stopper: crime rates don't correlate to poverty rates. Being born poor doesn't magically make you run around pointing guns at people and demanding their money.
I partly don't disagree with what you've been saying in that people who get in trouble with police have tended to be the kind of person that would indeed get into trouble with the police. If you are a low life criminal that beats his girlfriends and neglects his kids, who steals and does drugs then sure, you are more likely to be involved in implications with the police. Though I guess part of the problem is if you grow up with all the people around you assuming you're going to be like that, you're going to end up like it. This is where the problem with racism kind of comes in because no one is born a criminal, they are raised into that life. They're discriminated against and treated differently, raised by parents who were also discriminated against and treated differently. It's entirely environmental and obviously if you treat white people that way they end up the same way too. The problem is when people by default treat black people with suspicion it ends up a self fulfilling prophecy.

20
I wonder how much more this has to escalate before americans form a militia against the government just like their amendment allows for

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