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Messages - RonJ

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Around-the-World Sailing Races?
« on: May 15, 2020, 11:55:03 PM »
Ships also have a hull speed.  Strangely enough the longer the ship is, the higher the hull speed will likely be.  I've been on some 1000 foot ships that could go 35 knots, but the fuel consumption was also very high.  Basically the hull speed is a function of the hull design and when you start exceeding the hull speed the horsepower (and fuel consumption) starts to increase exponentially.  Fast ships have a very long & narrow bow, but when you do that you can carry less cargo but at a faster speed.  Docks also charge a fee based upon the length of the vessel.  So shorter & wider vessels can carry more cargo with less expensive berthing fees, but you won't get to your next port quite as fast. We would always follow a great circle route that was a nice curve on a flat map, or in our case the electronic map.  Sometimes the nice shortest route was followed exactly but if there was a typhoon right in the middle of that path there might be some diversions.  Is there any doubt about why?  On our trip from Shanghi, China back to California when we reached the most Northern part of the great circle route, usually just South of the Aleutian Islands, we would have a 'top of the world' party for our crew of about 23.  If you have 100's of millions of dollars worth of cargo aboard there's little doubt about taking the shortest, fastest route, and that's always the great circle one on the globe earth.  If there was another faster route you can be sure that over the last 100 plus years some sailor would have figured it out and would have taken great advantage of that knowledge.  If you don't believe that just look up the works of Nathaniel Bowditch.  Every American flagged ship still has to carry 'the bowditch' aboard, by law.       

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Around-the-World Sailing Races?
« on: May 15, 2020, 02:45:09 AM »
You are correct.  We also had a separate gauge that accurately measured speed thru water, but everything is relative to that water.  There are some significant currents out there that can easily add 3 or 4 knots to our speed depending on our heading at the time.  The current off the Japanese coast is one example.  Heavy seas taken head on will also result in more turns per mile.  Seas taken astern will do the opposite.  You have to be familiar with the average turns per mile under calm sea conditions.  Sea conditions has a bigger effect than winds.  Every ship was different.  You had to be familiar with a particular ship, the route, and the effects of the winds & waves on that particular ship.  All that takes lots of trips to get used to what is normal.  The whole idea of the shaft count in the first place was to get an idea of whether the hull was starting to get fouled.  A freshly painted hull would go further with every turn than a heavily fouled one.  Having said all that the GPS is the best indicator as it gives everything relative to the earth itself.  Our GPS data stream drove the electronic map display and you could always see the ship's position relative to land.  You could also overlay that GPS data to the radars to display the relative positions of the ship to nearby land and all the other ships either by radar return echoes or the AIS.  All the deck officers have to be trained on using a sextant for navigation as well.  We were required by law to carry one on board at all times in case of an emergency.  We sometimes carried Merchant Marine Academy cadets on board for training purposes and they often were taking sextant sights to get up to speed using the sextant although these days it would seldom be needed.  In the middle of the Pacific Ocean I could get out my iPhone and use the GPS app and obtain a GPS position that matched exactly to the main GPS receivers on the ship's console.  Using all the fancy navigational equipment would allow us to accurately predict when we would arrive at the sea buoy of our destination port.  This meant that we accurately knew distances & speeds.  Nothing we used would properly work if the earth were flat.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Around-the-World Sailing Races?
« on: May 14, 2020, 10:23:44 PM »
I've been out sailing off shore on a sail boat too.  However I was a professional merchant marine officer for the last 20 years of my career.  In those 20 years at least 10 of them were spent living & working an ocean going ships transiting the oceans of the world.  If you make a trip say from Shanghai, China to Long Beach, CA countless times you know within a small margin of error what the variables are.  Distances are very well known.  When you leave port you start the ship's engine.  The ship has a propeller with a known pitch.  That means for every turn of the propeller the ship travels a known distance.  There's a counter on the propeller shaft and at noon every day the shaft count is recorded.  You can use those figures to easily calculate a distance.  Of course there's some margin for error but if you are making the same trip over & over again you know what to expect.  If the distances traveled in a day don't match the known speeds it will quickly become apparent that something is wrong.  You can get within a mile or two with a sextant and closer than that with GPS so any good merchant marine navigator will know when things aren't correct.  I can say, in the Zetetic fashion, that the earth is proven to be spherical and can't be flat from countless ocean trips of over 5000 miles.  You are wasting your time to think anything else. 

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Electromagnetic acceleration experiment
« on: May 04, 2020, 04:49:33 PM »
FET would also have to explain why microwave links have a limited range that's now perfectly explained by the curvature of the earth.  Microwaves are electro-magnetic radiation, but at a much lower frequency.  Companies that provide links would just love to have the ability to build fewer towers to cover the required distance between two points.  This would be especially useful in the Western USA.  On a flat earth microwave link distances could be 100's of miles.  You can get between 100 and 200 miles now but only if the two locations are on tops of mountains.  You can easily get a microwave signal from a satellite overhead down to a cell phone with a small antenna but that's direct line of sight.  If the earth is flat the same thing should be possible on the earth's surface, but you can't.  Any electromagnet acceleration theory would have to have a frequency dependent component, or it just wouldn't work. Experiments could be done with a small microwave system.  It wouldn't be as obvious as a laser but would be more expensive.

Flat Earth Community / Re: 100 Questions for Round-Earthers.
« on: April 30, 2020, 03:27:56 PM »
Why do you believe the Earth is round?
It's the same as why do you believe the gas tank in your car is empty.  You can't directly look into it and directly see the level, but you have
a level gauge that tells you how much is in there.  It's the same for the shape of the earth.  Marine gyroscopes, for instance, require that the earth
rotates to stabilize on a longitudinal azimuth. This is one reason, among others for me to maintain the belief of a round earth.

Where is your evidence?
A marine gyroscope can also provide other data besides just the azimuth towards the geographic North Pole.  If you have access to a computer and can
look at the service data, like I could, you can see the other x, y, and z data.  The data observed matches what you would see if the earth were round and
you traveled from North America to Asia.

If yes, what evidence would change your mind about the shape of the Earth?
I would have to see that the basic laws of physics just don't work at all and that all my college training and actual observations of the physical world
were just a bunch of bunk.

If you believed the Earth was flat, would you admit it?

Have you always believed the Earth is round?

If no, what made you change your mind?

Have you ever observed the curvature of the Earth?
Yes, with instruments, as described above.

Have you ever been to space?

Have you ever been to the top of Mount Everest?

Can you believe in something you have never seen before?
Yes. I've never seen an atom, but I believe that everything is made from them.

What does faith mean to you?

Why do you deny the fact that the Earth is flat?
The evidence I've directly seen doesn't support it.  Suppose there was a box in the middle of town with either a black or white cat
inside of it.  I couldn't directly see the cat with my own eyes, but I could use some instruments to measure the cat's color directly.
This instrument had been directly calibrated by me with black & white squares so I trusted it's measurements.  My measurements
indicated that the cat was white.  Why would I ever think that I would directly see a black cat inside that box if I ever had the opportunity
to directly see it?

Will you believe anything the scientific community tells you?

If the scientific community told you the sky was red, would you accept it?

Do you believe that all planets are round, or just the Earth?

Do you believe that we put a man on the moon?
Yes.  I listened to that adventure in real time when I was younger.  Moon rocks were brought back that were unique
with characteristics that couldn't be present on earth.  I've physically touched one so I know that they exist.

If yes, why haven’t we done it again since 1969?
Doesn't matter.  The question is, was there a man on the moon, ever?

What evidence do you have that we put a man on the moon?
Astronauts say they were on the moon.  You would have to call all of them liars and all the other data involved with those missions
fabrications if you were to say it wasn't true. 

What evidence would change your mind?
If there was some other evidence that man was never on the moon, how would you know that other evidence wasn't just fabricated?

What is your opinion on conspiracies in general?

Do you believe the official story given by the government regarding the JFK assassination?

Do you believe that 9/11 was an inside job?
Do you believe in chemtrails?
Do you believe in the Illuminati?
Do you believe Obama was born in Hawaii, or Kenya?
Do you believe Obama is a Muslim?
Do you believe corona virus is real?
Do you believe that the CIA was testing methods of mind control in the 50’s and 60’s?
Do you believe in any conspiracies at all that were not already mentioned?
How do you square the fact that some of the most evil people in history believed the earth was round? Ex. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, etc.
Do you believe in the “theory” of gravity, as proposed by Isaac Newton?
Were you aware that Isaac Newton attempted to steal all the credit for the invention of calculus from Gottfried Leibniz?
Why do you take someone who wore a powdered wig seriously?
Why do you strawman people you don’t agree with and claim they are somehow anti-science?
Do you believe in God?
If yes, what religion/denomination are you a member of?

*************No answers to the above questions ***************

Do you believe that water seeks its own level?
Water will always flow in any direction closer to the center of gravity of the earth (down hill) in the absence of any other
force exerted on that drop of water.

Do you believe in tectonic plates?
What is your evidence for tectonic plates?
Have you ever seen a tectonic plate?
Has anyone ever seen a tectonic plate?
If the tectonic plates move so slowly that you can’t even notice, how do we know that they move at all, assuming of course that they actually exist?
How many tectonic plates are there?
How many continents are there?
Why are Europe and Asia seen as two different continents even though they are clearly one landmass?
What is the definition of a continent?
What is the definition of a planet?
What is the definition of a species?
Do any of the previously mentioned words have clearly defined meanings?
Should words without clearly defined meanings be used in a scientific setting?
If tectonic plates can create a mountain, could they also destroy a mountain?
What evidence is there that a mountain can be formed by tectonic plates?
Have you ever observed a mountain being formed from tectonic plates?
If tectonic plates caused all the continents to become one massive landmass, why did they suddenly drift apart in the opposite direction?
Do you believe that earthquakes are caused by the shifting of tectonic plates?
Where is your evidence that earthquakes are caused by the shifting of tectonic plates?
Do you believe that Earth could have landmasses no person has ever been to?
Do you believe that life exists on other planets?
Do you believe aliens have visited Earth?
Have you ever heard of the Fermi Paradox?
The Fermi Paradox is as follows: If evilution is true, then shouldn’t we be seeing aliens everywhere?
What is your explanation for the Fermi Paradox?
Do you believe the sun is many times bigger than the moon?
If yes, how could a solar eclipse be possible?
If the sun was bigger than the moon, then what are the chances that the moon would be able to eclipse almost all the light from the sun, except for a rim of light?
How does a lunar eclipse make sense on a round earth?
If the earth was casting a shadow on the moon, wouldn’t it just cause the moon to appear black, instead of red?
Do you believe the Earth rotates around the sun?
Do you believe there are millions of planets?
Do you believe there are millions of stars?
Do you believe that our sun is a star?
Do you believe in galaxies?
Do you believe in black holes?
Do you believe in quasars?
Do you believe in pulsars?
Do you believe in nebulae?
Do you believe in supernovae?
Do you believe in neutron stars?
Do you believe in white dwarfs?
Do you believe in brown dwarfs?
Do you believe in red dwarfs?
Do you believe in red giants?
Do you believe in dark energy?
Do you believe in dark matter?
Do you believe in anti-matter?
If you answered yes to any of the previously mentioned celestial objects, why?
Where is your evidence that these celestial objects exist?
Have you ever observed any of these celestial objects?
Do you believe that in the future, there will be people born not on Earth? Ex. Mars, The Moon, deep space, etc.
Do you believe that in the future, people will be able to travel back and forth between different planets?
If we were to start a colony on a different planet or even the moon, what laws would they have to follow?
Why is it that the most famous planets and stars are named after pagan gods?
Did you know that astronomy originates from the false religion known as astrology?
Is pluto a planet?
If pluto is too small to be considered a planet, how big does something have to be in order to be a planet?
What is the difference between a planet and a dwarf planet, other than size?
How big does something orbiting a planet need to be in order to be considered a moon?

************Didn't answer any of these questions*********************************

Is the fictitious international space station a moon?
The space station is real.  There's humans aboard it.  I've personally heard them talking on the radio to
a ground station.  It's been directly observed & photographed from the earth.

Do you believe that our solar system could have a ninth, unknown planet?

I have personal experience that GPS works in the middle of the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans.  At any time I could pull out my iPhone and see a GPS position that exactly matched the positions displayed by the ship's GPS receivers on the bridge. 

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Flight tracker app
« on: February 26, 2020, 05:02:23 PM »
The flight tracker system is similar to what has been used on ships for many years.  GPS receivers on ships transmit the position data, course & speed to an internal network.  A satellite transceiver then monitors this GPS data and periodically sends data up to a geosynchronous satellite receiver.  Shore based systems, like the ship's corporate office, can then see, at all times, the current position, course & speed, of a ship. 

Aircraft tracking websites have a premium service where you can have access to the up to date positions even in the middle of the ocean, but you have to pay extra if you want it.  Most people won't pay the extra so all they see most of the time is estimated positions.  Then when an aircraft is closer to a land based radar site those positions are updated in more real time. 

Everything is based upon your desire to pay a fee for the extra service.  Of course the airlines will pay the fee but most other people will not.

The ADS-B system is a recent upgrade to aircraft avionics packages that will allow other aircraft, even in the middle of the ocean, to see the positions of other aircraft in their immediate area.  This is quite handy when you want to avoid a collision.  Ships have been using a similar system for a long time and other ships can be seen on your radar display and an alarm can be set off if the system is programmed to do so.  It's all quite nice when you want to survive.   

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Revisiting Bedford Level Experiment
« on: January 08, 2020, 04:50:13 AM »
When you construct a microwave link, it's essential that you consider the curvature of the earth. 

The engineering plan must consider the height of the antenna at each end, the height of the terrain in between,
and the curvature of the earth.  The height of any object or a rise of terrain near the middle of the path could be
a game changer causing the costly construction of taller towers at one or both ends.

If it weren't for the curvature of the earth than a microwave transmitter on top of the Sears Tower in Chicago could easily
communicate with a tower in Omaha.  In the real world, that's impossible all because of the nasty curvature of the earth.

The same goes for TV towers.  If it weren't for the earth's curvature you wouldn't be able to put a TV transmitter on any of
the same channels as are used for the ones in Chicago anywhere in the USA.  Mutual interference would be the result. 

That doesn't happen for the vast majority of the time.  Yes, I used to sometimes watch TV from a distant city usually on the
lower TV channels 60 years ago.  Quirky weather conditions would allow the TV signals to bounce back to the earth, but those
kind of things only happened less than 1% of the time.  All that means is that, yes, you can indeed receive those signals from a
longer distance but for the most part it's the earth's curvature that keeps that distant TV signal from interfering with your local
TV station and keeping all the viewers happy.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Revisiting Bedford Level Experiment
« on: January 08, 2020, 12:30:19 AM »
Your experiment has already been done: check out the 'LIGO Experiment'.
It's a laser in a vacuum.  The arms are long enough so the concrete supports for the
pipes had to be adjusted to compensate for the earth's curvature. 

Maybe they should have consulted the wiki on here and saved themselves a bunch of money!

Flat Earth Projects / Re: Wiki - Moon
« on: February 28, 2019, 08:36:12 PM »
I've been a licensed ham myself for 55 years now.  You can see some YouTube videos of EME communications.  I believe that there's a club out there now that actively pursues that mode.  I've never tried it before myself and no longer have the property to put up the necessary antenna system for a serious attempt.  All my years as a radio 'professional' have drained a lot of my desire to talk on the ham bands much anymore.  I do listen quite a bit at times, however.  Years ago I used to hear some very obvious echos when trying to communicate on 20 meters CW.  I used to chase the Russian stations and would aim my beam toward the North to work them on that path.  When the band was seriously open I could, at times, hear their signals coming all the way around the world and arriving from the South off the back of my beam. You could swing the beam around and find a signal peak from the South as well. The differences in the path lengths would cause a distinct echo and was interesting to listen to.  Only another ham would probably understand the phenomenon. I've talked to other 'old timers' at the local radio club and most of them have heard the same thing.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: 2019 Total Lunar Eclipse
« on: January 21, 2019, 04:51:16 AM »
According to FE theory there should be some other body covering the moon right now.  If that's the case then that mysterious body should be directly above the earth somewhere and be fully lit by the sun.
It should be fully visible somewhere on the earth.  Just where is it?  who can see it?

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Another FEW Question...
« on: January 14, 2019, 10:07:34 PM »
What about the guy on the ISS who looked out his window and definitely saw that the earth was a sphere?  Why shouldn't I believe him?    Some of the ISS guys are amateur radio operators and talk to other amateurs on the ground (world wide).  I've actually heard them talk myself.  Does that make me part of the conspiracy?  I'm not a Mason, nor have I ever worked for NASA.  It sounds like there are some serious questions here and no answers available, even from Tom.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Flight Paths
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:47:13 PM »
Lots of mis-information here. 

When an airliner closes the door, and leaves the gate, the captain of aircraft (pilot in command) is in absolute control of the aircraft by federal regulations. If the pilot in command believes that a stop is necessary for the safety of the passengers, crew, and aircraft then a stop will be made.  You can be sure that if the airline believes that the pilot in command wasn't justified in his decision, based upon the judgement of the airlines chief pilot, then that pilot may loose his job.  Any non-stop flight can stop along the way due to a whole host of reasons.  Airlines have been sued by people who thought that they should have stopped but didn't.  Maybe a passenger had a medical condition, like a bad hang nail, and requested medical attention.  At that point the pilot in command has to make a very difficult decision.  Additionally, while the aircraft is at the gate the aircraft is fueled.  The more fuel that's put aboard the less payload can be carried.  It's a real balancing act.  If the pilot had a crystal ball and knew exactly what the weather conditions would be along the way, better decisions could be made.

The news reports did say that there had been some unusual weather conditions aloft causing a lot of headwinds.  Of course when this happens the over the ground speed of the plane slows down and the aircraft runs low on fuel.

Flight information regarding the position of the aircraft along the way most likely is coming from a private company called INMARSAT.  They have a service called Sat-C that provided regular position reports.  We used the same service on ships.  I am familiar with the equipment.   I doubt that NASA is involved here. 

The nice video Tom had linked was a little mis-informed.  The commentator did say that the aircraft was being tracked by ATC.  He did use the words Arctic, but of course what he should have said was 'air traffic control', that's what ATC means.  Radar (ATC) can only be used for a tiny fraction of the route.  Radar has a very limited range.  INMARSAT is the real workhorse here.

What you have here is airlines struggling to make a profit, they moved into more efficient aircraft to reduce costs like any good corporation should do.  Would blame them if you were a stock holder?  Unusual weather conditions were working against them and they had to make unscheduled stops that looked bad for them.  Do you really think the company wanted to do things that way?  Would it look a lot worse if an aircraft ran out of fuel, crashed & killed all aboard?  Is this a NASA conspiracy?  Are the Masons at fault for producing a defective earth map?  All some really good questions but I'm sure that most really believe that the whole problem is just some unusual weather conditions that eventually will change.


Flat Earth Theory / Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« on: January 14, 2019, 08:03:33 PM »
I agree that it is difficult to actually see the earth's curvature by looking at the horizon.  The 'sinking ship' effect seems to be somewhat controversial on this site.  Why not just short circuit that whole argument and look at something in the sky, the North Star for example?

When you look at this post you will see that the mathematics just won't work out unless the earth is spherical.  This is a direct observation of the curvature of the earth by observing something above the earth and not on the earth. 

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Seeing the curvature of the Earth directly
« on: January 14, 2019, 04:35:39 AM »
I saw a nice program on the Apollo 8 mission.  The idea was to navigate to the moon, orbit and come back without landing.  In order to navigate a sextant was installed so the earth & a navigational star could be observed and the spacecraft could be properly positioned along the route.  The black & white image on the lower right shows a nice view of the earth.  Even if the lens was dubbed as a 'fish eye' it wouldn't matter.  You can see the whole globe.

I believe that the whole series of photographs of the periscope view is available on

Is this another example of the NASA lies?  If that's not the case then you will have to disbelieve your eyes as the pictures clearly show the form of the earth.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« on: January 13, 2019, 03:22:29 AM »

I guess years ago you could go to your doctor and immediately get something for 'what ails ya'.  If a particularly troubled individual came in you could just take your phosphorus 'tonic' and splash in a little Laudanum.  That way it wouldn't matter if any disease was cured or not.  Your patient wouldn't be 'feeling any pain' and would have a strong inclination to keep coming back for more. 
Any 'doctor' likes that kind of repeat business. 

Flat Earth Community / Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« on: January 13, 2019, 12:14:31 AM »

I could believe that Rowbotham had a successful drug business. 

Maybe he was adding a 'nip' of something else to his brew and his customers were just a bit addicted after a while.
The drug business was probably 'legal' back then as well.  A hit of cocaine plus caffeine probably would take your headache away, or at least make it so you just didn't care if your head hurt or not.
Maybe he put in a wiff of phosphorous once in a while as well.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« on: January 12, 2019, 10:14:40 PM »
Wow, I guess I was really duped then.  Me and a bunch more.  See the references at the end of the article.  There are over 800.  Reference #25 (to get back to the topic) was about the Calcium and phosphorus change of the Apollo 17 crew. 

I guess that all the doctors and scientists had to be provided with fake samples for them to study. Perhaps all the doctors and scientists were just in on the hoax and just wrote up a bunch of lies and called it 'research'. 

Is the Rowbotham story real, or is it just a big hoax?  Is Rowbotham the same person as Birley?  If you are proud of what you are doing why have different names? 
Who is a bigger hoaxster, Rowbotham or NASA?    You have to admit these are all interesting questions.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Samuel Birley aka Rowbotham
« on: January 12, 2019, 09:02:40 PM »
Maybe more herbs for food and medicine will be used in the future. Do you believe it, or is it just a hoax?

Who will be the next Rowbotham in Space???  Will he be a quack, will it be a hoax?  Why do all the studies if there's no one in space anyway???
See page 40 regarding phosphorus.

Flat Earth Projects / Re: Wiki - Moon
« on: January 12, 2019, 06:00:25 PM »
A great project would be for the Flat Earth Society to get in touch with some radio operators that can actually communicate by bouncing their signals off the moon.  Yes, this is actually possible and happens on most days.  The operators are private individuals who are not necessarily connected with the government (NASA) in any way and are prevented by law from making any money whatsoever from operating their radios. 

After conducting some experiments, in the Zetetic fashion, the Wiki could be updated with a measurable, proved, distance to the moon. 

Would there be any objections to such a Flat Earth Project?  How would actually measuring the distance to the moon not further the accuracy of the flat earth theory?

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