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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Recap of Recalibration on Longest Bridge and Mountain of Water (for reference)

« on: May 17, 2016, 05:56:10 AM »

So summarise: do you think standing bodies of water are flat or follow the curvature of the earth?
Either way, can you describe an experiment which would give evidence to support you're point of view?

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Water finding it's own level

« on: February 16, 2016, 04:38:45 AM »

The point I'm making Cable is the link you posted is a very rough guide as to how to calculate the curvature of the earth, full of potential errors and whatever results you obtain will be meaningless...not a good example to cite

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Water finding it's own level

« on: February 15, 2016, 08:03:16 PM »

The failings of the Bedford level experiment are from failure to adjust for light refraction in such close proximity to the water surface, lack of independent scrutiny and reproducibility.
As far as I'm aware, there has not been a publishable experiment yet

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Water finding it's own level

« on: February 15, 2016, 10:53:23 AM »

CableDawg, with all due respect I think you've oversimplified things.
That experiment you've attached a link to is about as unscientific and an error riddled as it gets.

I'm sure you're a smart person so why don't you devise a scientifically robust experiment, taking into account equipment and measurement errors which is publishable and can withstand peer review...until someone on either side of the debate does this then it is all just empty chatter

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Argument via Empericism

« on: February 03, 2016, 06:36:11 AM »

"RET predicts that the earth is at such a convenient size that it creates the illusion of being flat. - Untestable"


The laser beam experiment on the Pontchartrain Causeway that I described is an attempt to calculate the curvature of a large standing body of water and therefore the earth. So therefore, as per my experiment, it is testable.
Please retract the above quote Tom

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: February 01, 2016, 11:07:19 PM »

I get what you are saying Model and I agree.

The only point of difference is that if you draw a tangent to the radius on an ellipse then, by definition, it will only be parallel to the surface of the ellipse at 4 points, the apices of the ellipse.

I think this is what Neptune is referring to.

Ultimately, in the globe earth model, given that the relative size difference of the maximum radius versus the minimum radius in comparison to the average radius is so small, a horizontal laser beam can be said to be parallel to the  earth's surface anywhere on the globe.

Of course, all entirely irrelevant if the earth is flat.


Tom, having reread your answer and looked on the Wiki, I have noticed you have conducted the Bishop experiment.

Essentially, my suggestion is a higher tech version of that, with quantitative measurement of the curvature (or lack thereof) of the lake with an attempt to take into account the issue of refraction of light when viewed close to the water's surface.

Your experiment and others before it are impressive but here's the catch: the FES will not be taken seriously until an experiment is performed that satisfies conventional scientific robustness (i.e. published in a reputable journal and subject to peer review) and in my opinion performed in conjunction with an outside body, such as a university
Such an experiment, like the one I have described, will undoubtedly be expensive and a logistical challenge.

But what else are you going to do?
Just keep talking about it and relying on non-published, non-peer reviewed experiments as well as historical experiments from 100+ years ago?

That will not achieve anything in terms of convincing the greater population of the world because a couple of pretty massive obstacles stand in your way: 1, the photos of earth from outer space and 2, the landing on the moon.

Both of these things may well be very elaborate hoaxes and grand conspiracies but they have certainly got 99.99% of the population convinced that the world is a globe.

So again, if you can think of a better experiment than mine which accounts for the shortcomings of previous experiments, will be publishable and will stand up to the scrutiny of peer review then I would love to hear it.

If not, this whole thing will just be a talk fest…


So obviously the question is to how serious are you about convincing the population the earth is flat.
Publication and peer review is your only hope for that unfortunately, sorry to be the one who breaks it to you

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: February 01, 2016, 08:17:21 AM »

I understand the point you are making Neptune.

Remember, I am suggesting a laser is placed on the bridge surface horizontally which is therefore parallel to the surface of the water below it at this point.

If you believe the earth is a globe then you also acknowledge that it is not a perfect sphere.
If it was a perfect sphere then the degree of curvature over a given distance would be identical no matter which part of the sphere you were on or what direction you were facing. Hence, a laser parallel to the surface (tangential to the radius) would never touch the earth again.

On the global earth model, given that it is acknowledged that the earth is not a perfect sphere then this rate of curvature will be different on different parts of the globe. And therefore it is potentially possible that a parallel laser may eventually touch the earths surface again.

However, given that the estimated discrepancy of the radius is approximately 20 miles out of a total distance of an approximate 4000 mile radius, the resultant effects on degree of curvature will be very small.
In other worlds, in the global earth model, the earth is not a perfect sphere but pretty damn close.

A good study takes variables such as these into account and is designed so that a significant result will be obtained, even allowing for extremes of such variables.

An expected height variation of 3-6 yards at 6 miles (depending on how you calculate it) should well and truly account for discrepancies due to variation of the earths radius at different points, which should be a couple of inches max.

And I also suggested performing the experiment both directions to mainly account for tidal differences but to also satisfy what you described.

Of course, none of the above is relevant if the earth is flat. If so,  the beam will be parallel with the water along its entire path

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: February 01, 2016, 06:22:15 AM »

Thanks Tom.
I think the point of difference here, as Rayzor points out, is an attempt to remove the refractive effects.
In addition, it attempts to measure curvature in a quantitative way.

The experimental evidence you talk of appears to not address these points and perhaps this is why the greater population of the world are not convinced the world is flat.

Again, I think my suggestion is scientifically robust.
Do you agree?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: February 01, 2016, 05:34:00 AM »

I'll respond to your concerns respectfully and Tom Bishop, I would love to know where you stand on this one.

Firstly, the degree of curvature of standing bodies of water is fundamentally what the evidence for a flat earth is reliant upon...hopefully you don't disagree with that.

If anyone can quantitatively measure the degree of curvature of a large standing body of water and display, with robust technique, that the standing body of water has no curvature then this would be very good evidence that the world is flat.

So my hypothesis would be: "the earth is a globe with an equatorial radius of x".
You can pick any number you want for x but I would pick a best estimate for the latitude of the Pontchartrain Causeway.

Now, to discuss your points.
Firstly, if the earth is flat, then it will not matter which way you conduct the experiment, the laser beam and water surface will be parallel in both directions either north or south.
In fact, I would recommend it be performed in both directions in order to account for minor tidal variations.

If the earth is a globe, there will be a significant elevation of the laser beam above the water surface, well and truly above any corrections for variation of radius, tidal movements or equipment/measurement errors.
Combined, these will of the order of magnitude of 1 yard over 6 miles but the expected height difference over 6 miles will be greater than 3 yards (maybe more depending on your calculations).

So what would the results need to be in order to display a result?
+/- 1 yard of the predicted elevation for a radius of x would give a result consistent with a globe earth.

+/- 1 yard of the initial height of the laser beam above the water surface throughout its journey would give a result consistent with the laser beam and water being parallel. And if you believe the laser beam is free from the effects of refraction then the water surface by definition is flat.
The beauty of performing the experiment on a bridge (although logistically very difficult) is that it attempts to minimise the issue of light refraction when optical measurements are taken very near the water surface, so therefore the laser should indeed be very close to a straight line.

I am guessing that will not keep you happy so tell you what, put some thought into it and design an experiment yourself that measures the curvature of standing bodies of water.
Remembering of course the criticisms of previous experiments and accounting for them in your design.

If you can think of an easier, more robust way of doing it that's great...put it into action and prove to the world the earth is flat!

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 29, 2016, 07:13:24 AM »

Again, I am not your enemy.
And thank you Rayzor, those calculations equate with mine.

It does beg a very interesting question though: if it is fundamentally impossible to determine the curvature of a standing body of water, how then does anyone know that it is curved...apart from photos from outer space showing a globe earth.

The inability to experimentally prove that standing bodies of water are curved must therefore conclude that they may also be flat.

The greater population (even if they have been deceived on a grand scale) essentially ridicule the concept of a flat earth.
If the FES want to be taken seriously then they must demonstrate with the utmost of scientific robustness that the earth is flat.

My experiment might do it, food for thought for the FES

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Flat Earth Community / Re: The Ultimate Proof?

« on: January 29, 2016, 07:03:32 AM »

Sorry, but I'm still not convinced that the earth is flat. But I think that the discussions are both interesting and challenges your thinking :-)

I want to ask some of the flat earth believers if there's ANYTHING that could convince you that the earth is not flat? E.g. if you were invited into space to look for yourself or whatever. What would be 'the ultimate proof' for you that the earth is, in fact, not flat?

Prove to me that standing bodies of water are flat with actual quantifiable data then I'll believe that the earth is flat

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 10:46:36 PM »

Don't let minor points of difference over who said or meant what...the key point is to determine a way to accurately measure the curvature (or lack thereof) of standing bodies of water.
Prove that water surfaces are horizontal and you'll prove your theory...no need to thank me

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 10:17:58 AM »

For what it's worth, I am nobody's enemy in the FES.

In these forums there are a lot of intelligent, passionate people making genuine contributions.
I have also seen the YouTube videos showing various structures seen at incredible lengths across bodies of water that seemingly defy the mathematical calculations of the curvature of the earth.

So what would it take to convince the population of the world that the earth is flat?

Answer: confirm that standing bodies of water are horizontal and not curved via legitimate analysis and publishable results.
The experiment I have described can potentially achieve that and I think everyone here knows it.


If the FES wants legitimacy then it should endeavour to conduct such a study.
No need for squabbling amongst yourself, you know what you need to do

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 02:41:05 AM »

Rayzor, you can approach the hypothesis from either direction ie proving that the flat earth is spherical or vice versa.
The problem for the FES is that the belief that the earth is a sphere is so utterly engrained throughout society that the onus is on the FES to prove it is flat.

In terms of the causeway, I think it has significantly long stretches that are flat in order to gain a statistically significant result.
By my calculations, there should be approximately a 3 yard height difference the between the laser and the water surface (compared to the initial height) at a distance of 4 miles from the origin of the beam.
This difference should be plenty, given that equipment and measurement errors of the laser are only likely to be a few 1-2 feet at 4 miles.

Bottom line is this: do you want to prove to the rest of the world that the earth is truly flat? If so then you need to be channeling you're energies into experiments like the one I'm describing.
If you are happy in your beliefs and don't feel the need to prove anything to anybody then don't bother

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 27, 2016, 10:38:43 PM »

You raise a good point Pongo.

Why does anyone want to prove the earth is flat?
If proof is indeed established what will the consequences be?

I am open minded to the idea. I certainly think it is possible.

Before you label me a "round earther" remember that I have provided a legitimate suggestion as to how the FES may indeed prove the world is flat.

The principles of the experiment are valid but the implementation is quite involved.
The FES may wish to take this concept to a university or to actually conduct the experiment themselves.
It could be the critical piece of evidence they are looking for.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 27, 2016, 06:46:58 AM »

Similar concept Rayzor.
Calculating the "levelness" of a standing body of water is the entire premise of the FES.
If the FES wants to prove the world of the grand spherical earth conspiracy this is what they need to do.

Any low lying, dead straight and sufficiently long bridge will do...just so happens that the Pontchartrain Causeway is right in the backyard of the home of the FES.
Some similar bridges in China would probably be suitable.

Another alternative is to approach a Louisiana University and ask them to conduct a graduate field experiment to calculate the curvature of Lake Pontchatrain and therefore the earth.
If (when!) the university calculate that the lake is flat then they'll publish the results. A university study in a peer reviewed journal will have some clout.

Just some suggestions for the FES, hopefully they are taken in the correct way

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 26, 2016, 11:59:49 PM »

Hey Hoppy, scroll up a few inches and you'll see that I've posted the Jeranism video you are talking about.
The laser they use disperses about 12 inches over 6 miles, perfectly acceptable.

I think the earth is a sphere so why would I want to prove it's flat?

However, I have devised an experiment that attempts to quantify the degree of curvature of the lake.
If it has flaws then I'm keen to hear them...but as you can see, nobody seems to have come up with any, and I'm confident they won't.

So therefore if the FES are serious, as a society, they should make an attempt to conduct the experiment.
It could give them all the evidence they are looking for.
If they choose not, then maybe they're not so serious about proving the earth flat after all

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 26, 2016, 11:05:24 AM »

Anyone?

I'm looking for faults in the experiment.
If it can't be faulted then the FES should set about organising the experiment.
It is possibly the Holy Grail the society is looking for

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 24, 2016, 10:43:48 PM »

You are correct Rayzor, the height of the laser above the water line is the key determinant.
I tried to make this point in the original post but perhaps was not that clear.

I suggested to perform a control measurement of distance from road to water surface in order to make the subsequent measurement of laser to water surface less cumbersome.
Given that the laser is likely to be pointed down the middle of the road, direct measurement from laser beam to water surface will be difficult.
However, if distance from water surface to road is known then simply the additional height of the beam above the road can be added then you have total height of laser beam above the water surface.

In terms of equipment and measurement errors, the aim will be to minimise them and factor them in to the margin for a statistically significant result.

A 1000mw laser available over the internet disperses approximately 12 inches over 6 miles. See this video from jeranism at 23.30:

Top of the range self levelling devices are reported to be accurate to 30cm per 10000m (sorry about the metric).

So therefore over about 6 miles the error will be +/- 18 inches.

However, over 6 miles, the expected height difference in water surface to laser (if the earth is curved) should be at least a few yards depending on what number you use for the radius of the earth.

In essence, if the height of the beam above the water line is +/_  12 inches over 6 miles then the water and beam are parallel.

In terms of optical interference, the Causeway looks 5 or 6 yards above sea level, which is approximately the 20-30 feet you talk about model 29. Therefore, refraction from heat and or mirage effects should be minimal.

In terms of the theodolite, I think it is an excellent idea to have this in parallel with the laser in order to confirm that there has been no refraction of the laser beam.
I still think the laser is a good idea given that this is a visible point that can be seen by all observers. In the presence of some very sceptical people this will show that the results are real, as opposed to a viewer looking through a single theodolite, which may be subject to criticism of observer bias.

Food for thought…any and all criticisms very, very welcome.

There some very intelligent people on here better versed at physics than me so if there are some flaws in my experiment I would love to hear them.

If not, and the principles are robust, then maybe the FES can perform the experiment and give the world some concrete proof once and for all

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 24, 2016, 11:08:04 AM »

Thanks Rayzor, I agree.
I think a definitive experiment would involve a laser and theodolite side by side.
What do you think about the design of the experiment? Any flaws?