# The Flat Earth Society

## Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: 3DGeek on August 27, 2017, 09:32:29 PM

Title: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: 3DGeek on August 27, 2017, 09:32:29 PM
Lots of people post photos taken out of passenger airliner windows that claim to show horizon curvature.

FE'ers always reply by saying that the window of the plane causes distortion that makes it look like that.

Then, I thought a bit about the shape of the windows.   They don't bulge outwards or dimple inwards compared to the skin of the airplane because that would add horrible amounts of drag.   They match the curvature of the skink of the plane - which is cylindrical over most of the (cattle-class) seats that I can afford.

That means that the two layers of plastic that make up the window are such that the inner layer is dead flat - but the outer layer is a section of a cylinder.   The plastic is of uniform thickness in both cases.

So the lensing effect of the window ought to preserve horizontal lines as horizontal - which means that they can't possibly bend the horizon line into a curve when the plane is flying straight-and-level.

But then, thinking harder on the problem - I realize that a curved sheet of plastic would be like a convex lens followed by a concave lens...and being almost exactly the same radius of curvature, they would cancel each other out.

Now I'm suspecting that our FE friends are talking bullshit here.  (No!  Surely not!)

So in the interests of doing an experiment, when I recently took a flight on a brand new 787 airplane, I thought  I should test this idea.

I pressed my cellphone flat against the inner window and snapped photos of the wing of the airplane.  The aileron (I think that's what it is) that's in my view is dead straight in diagrams of the airplane I found online...and in my photos, that same line is straight too.

Hmmm - so NO DISTORTION!

Oh - oh!  Could it possibly be that the FE'ers are talking nonsense here?

Surely not?

I'm rather certain that this whole FE excuse of the window glass distorting the straight horizon to make it LOOK curved may well be a bunch of hogwash.

If I'm correct - then we can find DIRECT proof of the curvature of the horizon...and I *KNOW* that FE'ers trust direct experimental evidence.

I'm flying back tomorrow - and I'll try to get more pictures.   On the outbound flight, it was too cloudy to get a clear picture of the horizon...maybe I'll get lucky coming back.  It's the exact same airplane both ways...so that's good.

I'll post results in a couple of days when I have a moment to spare.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: frodo467 on August 27, 2017, 10:26:39 PM
Lots of people post photos taken out of passenger airliner windows that claim to show horizon curvature.

FE'ers always reply by saying that the window of the plane causes distortion that makes it look like that.

Then, I thought a bit about the shape of the windows.   They don't bulge outwards or dimple inwards compared to the skin of the airplane because that would add horrible amounts of drag.   They match the curvature of the skink of the plane - which is cylindrical over most of the (cattle-class) seats that I can afford.

That means that the two layers of plastic that make up the window are such that the inner layer is dead flat - but the outer layer is a section of a cylinder.   The plastic is of uniform thickness in both cases.

So the lensing effect of the window ought to preserve horizontal lines as horizontal - which means that they can't possibly bend the horizon line into a curve when the plane is flying straight-and-level.

But then, thinking harder on the problem - I realize that a curved sheet of plastic would be like a convex lens followed by a concave lens...and being almost exactly the same radius of curvature, they would cancel each other out.

Now I'm suspecting that our FE friends are talking bullshit here.  (No!  Surely not!)

So in the interests of doing an experiment, when I recently took a flight on a brand new 787 airplane, I thought  I should test this idea.

I pressed my cellphone flat against the inner window and snapped photos of the wing of the airplane.  The aileron (I think that's what it is) that's in my view is dead straight in diagrams of the airplane I found online...and in my photos, that same line is straight too.

Hmmm - so NO DISTORTION!

Oh - oh!  Could it possibly be that the FE'ers are talking nonsense here?

Surely not?

I'm rather certain that this whole FE excuse of the window glass distorting the straight horizon to make it LOOK curved may well be a bunch of hogwash.

If I'm correct - then we can find DIRECT proof of the curvature of the horizon...and I *KNOW* that FE'ers trust direct experimental evidence.

I'm flying back tomorrow - and I'll try to get more pictures.   On the outbound flight, it was too cloudy to get a clear picture of the horizon...maybe I'll get lucky coming back.  It's the exact same airplane both ways...so that's good.

I'll post results in a couple of days when I have a moment to spare.

A simple way to test this is to take pictures at all point of the flight and at different altitudes.  If the window is curved enough to produce a curve on the horizon, then we will notice curves in other places where there ought not be a curve through the same window.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: junker on August 27, 2017, 11:07:49 PM
Lots of people post photos taken out of passenger airliner windows that claim to show horizon curvature.

FE'ers always reply by saying that the window of the plane causes distortion that makes it look like that.

Then, I thought a bit about the shape of the windows.   They don't bulge outwards or dimple inwards compared to the skin of the airplane because that would add horrible amounts of drag.   They match the curvature of the skink of the plane - which is cylindrical over most of the (cattle-class) seats that I can afford.

That means that the two layers of plastic that make up the window are such that the inner layer is dead flat - but the outer layer is a section of a cylinder.   The plastic is of uniform thickness in both cases.

So the lensing effect of the window ought to preserve horizontal lines as horizontal - which means that they can't possibly bend the horizon line into a curve when the plane is flying straight-and-level.

But then, thinking harder on the problem - I realize that a curved sheet of plastic would be like a convex lens followed by a concave lens...and being almost exactly the same radius of curvature, they would cancel each other out.

Now I'm suspecting that our FE friends are talking bullshit here.  (No!  Surely not!)

So in the interests of doing an experiment, when I recently took a flight on a brand new 787 airplane, I thought  I should test this idea.

I pressed my cellphone flat against the inner window and snapped photos of the wing of the airplane.  The aileron (I think that's what it is) that's in my view is dead straight in diagrams of the airplane I found online...and in my photos, that same line is straight too.

Hmmm - so NO DISTORTION!

Oh - oh!  Could it possibly be that the FE'ers are talking nonsense here?

Surely not?

I'm rather certain that this whole FE excuse of the window glass distorting the straight horizon to make it LOOK curved may well be a bunch of hogwash.

If I'm correct - then we can find DIRECT proof of the curvature of the horizon...and I *KNOW* that FE'ers trust direct experimental evidence.

I'm flying back tomorrow - and I'll try to get more pictures.   On the outbound flight, it was too cloudy to get a clear picture of the horizon...maybe I'll get lucky coming back.  It's the exact same airplane both ways...so that's good.

I'll post results in a couple of days when I have a moment to spare.

While I appreciate your alleged efforts here, passenger airliners simply do not fly at an altitude (40K feet or less) where you'd be able to discern curvature through the narrow FoV afforded by the windows (assuming RE metrics). I thought this was well-understood by round earth logicians. I suppose I should stop assuming RE logicians understand their own model very well, though.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: StinkyOne on August 28, 2017, 03:19:50 AM
Lots of people post photos taken out of passenger airliner windows that claim to show horizon curvature.

FE'ers always reply by saying that the window of the plane causes distortion that makes it look like that.

Then, I thought a bit about the shape of the windows.   They don't bulge outwards or dimple inwards compared to the skin of the airplane because that would add horrible amounts of drag.   They match the curvature of the skink of the plane - which is cylindrical over most of the (cattle-class) seats that I can afford.

That means that the two layers of plastic that make up the window are such that the inner layer is dead flat - but the outer layer is a section of a cylinder.   The plastic is of uniform thickness in both cases.

So the lensing effect of the window ought to preserve horizontal lines as horizontal - which means that they can't possibly bend the horizon line into a curve when the plane is flying straight-and-level.

But then, thinking harder on the problem - I realize that a curved sheet of plastic would be like a convex lens followed by a concave lens...and being almost exactly the same radius of curvature, they would cancel each other out.

Now I'm suspecting that our FE friends are talking bullshit here.  (No!  Surely not!)

So in the interests of doing an experiment, when I recently took a flight on a brand new 787 airplane, I thought  I should test this idea.

I pressed my cellphone flat against the inner window and snapped photos of the wing of the airplane.  The aileron (I think that's what it is) that's in my view is dead straight in diagrams of the airplane I found online...and in my photos, that same line is straight too.

Hmmm - so NO DISTORTION!

Oh - oh!  Could it possibly be that the FE'ers are talking nonsense here?

Surely not?

I'm rather certain that this whole FE excuse of the window glass distorting the straight horizon to make it LOOK curved may well be a bunch of hogwash.

If I'm correct - then we can find DIRECT proof of the curvature of the horizon...and I *KNOW* that FE'ers trust direct experimental evidence.

I'm flying back tomorrow - and I'll try to get more pictures.   On the outbound flight, it was too cloudy to get a clear picture of the horizon...maybe I'll get lucky coming back.  It's the exact same airplane both ways...so that's good.

I'll post results in a couple of days when I have a moment to spare.

While I appreciate your alleged efforts here, passenger airliners simply do not fly at an altitude (40K feet or less) where you'd be able to discern curvature through the narrow FoV afforded by the windows (assuming RE metrics). I thought this was well-understood by round earth logicians. I suppose I should stop assuming RE logicians understand their own model very well, though.

You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: 3DGeek on August 28, 2017, 04:37:13 AM
A simple way to test this is to take pictures at all point of the flight and at different altitudes.  If the window is curved enough to produce a curve on the horizon, then we will notice curves in other places where there ought not be a curve through the same window.

Aaawww - you spoiled my punchline!

Yes - I already took photos on the ground...and indeed, straight lines in the real world are straight lines in the photos.

I was hoping to hear Tom talk bullshit first.

But that's OK.

Yes - for 100% sure - the windows of a 787 airplane (and every other modern airliner for that matter) DO NOT distort the image in any ways that turn straight lines into curves.

<sigh>
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 28, 2017, 08:47:27 AM
You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.

The Concord was looking down at a circle.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: StinkyOne on August 28, 2017, 12:19:49 PM
A simple way to test this is to take pictures at all point of the flight and at different altitudes.  If the window is curved enough to produce a curve on the horizon, then we will notice curves in other places where there ought not be a curve through the same window.

Aaawww - you spoiled my punchline!

Yes - I already took photos on the ground...and indeed, straight lines in the real world are straight lines in the photos.

I was hoping to hear Tom talk bullshit first.

But that's OK.

Yes - for 100% sure - the windows of a 787 airplane (and every other modern airliner for that matter) DO NOT distort the image in any ways that turn straight lines into curves.

<sigh>
LOL, sorry!
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: StinkyOne on August 28, 2017, 12:31:43 PM
You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.

The Concord was looking down at a circle.

Close, it was looking down at a globe. BTW, your Wiki has an article about the 100 proofs the Earth is flat. The very 1st "proof" is blown out of the water.
#1 The aeronaut can see for himself that Earth is a Plane. The appearance presented to him, even at the highest elevation he has ever attained, is that of a concave surface - this being exactly what is to be expected of a surface that is truly level, since it is the nature of level surfaces to appear to rise to a level with the eye of the observer. This is ocular demonstration and proof that Earth is not a globe.

Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 28, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.

The Concord was looking down at a circle.

Close, it was looking down at a globe. BTW, your Wiki has an article about the 100 proofs the Earth is flat. The very 1st "proof" is blown out of the water.
#1 The aeronaut can see for himself that Earth is a Plane. The appearance presented to him, even at the highest elevation he has ever attained, is that of a concave surface - this being exactly what is to be expected of a surface that is truly level, since it is the nature of level surfaces to appear to rise to a level with the eye of the observer. This is ocular demonstration and proof that Earth is not a globe.

The 100 Proofs the Earth is Not a Globe book was written in 1885.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on August 28, 2017, 02:30:43 PM
You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.

The Concord was looking down at a circle.

Close, it was looking down at a globe. BTW, your Wiki has an article about the 100 proofs the Earth is flat. The very 1st "proof" is blown out of the water.
#1 The aeronaut can see for himself that Earth is a Plane. The appearance presented to him, even at the highest elevation he has ever attained, is that of a concave surface - this being exactly what is to be expected of a surface that is truly level, since it is the nature of level surfaces to appear to rise to a level with the eye of the observer. This is ocular demonstration and proof that Earth is not a globe.

The 100 Proofs the Earth is Not a Globe book was written in 1885.
What's your point? If the FES doesn't feel it's valid anymore shouldn't it be removed from the wiki? If it's accurate I shouldn't think age would matter, no? Math still uses century and older ideas/proofs.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: StinkyOne on August 28, 2017, 02:51:13 PM
You are largely correct with one big exception. Concord. The Concord flew high enough for its passengers to see and photograph the curvature of the Earth. I'm guessing all those people were part of the conspiracy or just seeing things. Who knows? This is well known and documented. And no, I'm not going to go look for you and post a link. Google it yourself and see.

The Concord was looking down at a circle.

Close, it was looking down at a globe. BTW, your Wiki has an article about the 100 proofs the Earth is flat. The very 1st "proof" is blown out of the water.
#1 The aeronaut can see for himself that Earth is a Plane. The appearance presented to him, even at the highest elevation he has ever attained, is that of a concave surface - this being exactly what is to be expected of a surface that is truly level, since it is the nature of level surfaces to appear to rise to a level with the eye of the observer. This is ocular demonstration and proof that Earth is not a globe.

The 100 Proofs the Earth is Not a Globe book was written in 1885.

Is there a way to know what is considered accurate in the Wiki. I know we roundies are pointed there frequently when we have questions.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 28, 2017, 03:21:08 PM
The date of the book is stated clearly in the Wiki. The book is from our literature section archive. Do you expect the victorian-era Flat Earth Society books to have chapters about the ISS too?
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: CriticalThinker on August 28, 2017, 03:26:54 PM
The date of the book is stated clearly in the Wiki. The book is from our literature section archive. Do you expect the victorian-era Flat Earth Society books to have chapters about the ISS too?

Tom,

For those of us new to the Forum and Wiki, it might be helpful to know which flat earth resources are considered still valid by the community and the ones that are there specifically for historical purposes.  I wouldn't expect the book in question to address the ISS or space flight, satellites or any other technology that wasn't present upon its time of writing.  I would, however, expect that a modern flat earth society would be able to provide some clarity on which parts of the Wiki are still considered accurate for discussion today.  I believe that this would alleviate you and other members of the council from having to repeatedly answer questions about outdated models.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on August 28, 2017, 03:41:20 PM
The date of the book is stated clearly in the Wiki. The book is from our literature section archive. Do you expect the victorian-era Flat Earth Society books to have chapters about the ISS too?
I have zero issue with it being kept in the literature section archive (as a note the link on this (http://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Literature) page no longer functions) but it seems like you might want to put a disclaimer or some extra information about that on the actual page for it in the wiki here (http://wiki.tfes.org/A_hundred_proofs_the_Earth_is_not_a_globe) for newcomers. We're straying a fair bit off topic at the moment, but I'm not sure there's much to discuss until we have 3D's pictures.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: JHelzer on August 28, 2017, 03:56:01 PM
So back on topic.
We can all see the curvature of the Earth in every high altitude photo.
If a passenger jet is not flying high enough to show the curvature from left to right, it still shows the curvature away from the viewer.

The horizon does not continue to rise to the vanishing point as it should on a flat Earth.  Instead it curves down, away, out of sight. It does this in all directions.  This is simple easy proof that the Earth is a globe.
Title: Re: Do passenger airplane windows distort camera photos?
Post by: 3DGeek on August 29, 2017, 11:47:37 AM
So back on topic.
We can all see the curvature of the Earth in every high altitude photo.
If a passenger jet is not flying high enough to show the curvature from left to right, it still shows the curvature away from the viewer.

The horizon does not continue to rise to the vanishing point as it should on a flat Earth.  Instead it curves down, away, out of sight. It does this in all directions.  This is simple easy proof that the Earth is a globe.

I agree - you need quite a bit of precision to measure the curvature of the horizon in a 60 degree field of view camera shot from 40,000 feet.  The sky is rarely clear enough to see a defined horizon at that distance anyway.

My thread here is merely to dispel one more common FET argument.

If at some future time, we have a nice photo of a clear horizon that exhibits measurable curvature - then when the FE'ers call foul on account of window-distortion artifacts - we are ready with an answer here.

1) There can be no horizontal curvature because windows are curved to fit a horizontal cylinder.

2) There can be no appreciable distortion in the vertical direction because curved windows of uniform thickness comprise a convex lens backed by a concave lens of *almost* identical radius.  The radius of the outside of the lens would be the radius of an airplane fuselage - several meters - and the radius of the inside lens would be just a few millimeters less because of the thickness of the plastic.

3) There is no observed bending of straight lines in actual photography.

But yes - until some photos (eg from Concorde) appear that clearly show curvature, this is just a "back-stop" argument to prevent future complaints.