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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Vindictus on August 11, 2014, 10:24:06 AM

Title: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 11, 2014, 10:24:06 AM
I thought I'd create a kind of news/discussion thread in regards to this since we have nothing regarding it right now. For a basic idea of who these guys are and what they're doing, there's the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#2014_events) page and various images of their crucifixions, decapitations and other atrocities available courtesy of their social media presence.

Obama recently initiated air strikes (http://www.c-span.org/video/?320947-1/president-obama-statement-iraq) against ISIS artillery positions, in order to protect civilians at threat as a result of ISIS advances in northern Iraq. They currently control some critical dams (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/isis-seizes-iraq-dam-capable-creating-wave-flood-baghdad-article-1.1897539), giving them the power to flood Baghdad, which is a scary prospect. The Iraqi army has so far proven incapable of holding their own territory despite severely out numbering and out gunning ISIS, usually because they flee in the face of advances, effectively gearing up ISIS in the process.

There's been a lot of talk in Australia regarding what we should do, as a great many of ISIS' international supporters have come from Australia. It's unlikely US air strikes will do anything but delay advances. I don't think the west has the stomach for another war in the middle east, so the only option that would put an end to this group quickly is an unlikely one.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 11, 2014, 11:04:51 AM
I think the US will probably start giving arms to the Kurds while providing air support.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 11, 2014, 02:35:32 PM
A 10th crusade might do the job. On a serious note, though, they are fucking sick. If you guys haven't seen it, watch the VICE documentary coming out on them now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs&list=UUZaT_X_mc0BI-djXOlfhqWQ
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 11, 2014, 03:26:53 PM
Time to start target practice I suppose..
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 11, 2014, 08:13:27 PM
A new and terrifying state has been born (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/patrick-cockburn/isis-consolidates).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 11, 2014, 08:15:46 PM
A new and terrifying state has been born (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/patrick-cockburn/isis-consolidates).

We just need to nuke that whole place.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 11, 2014, 09:52:48 PM
I wonder if George W Bush and Tony Blair feel at all responsible for this?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 11, 2014, 10:34:58 PM
I wonder if George W Bush and Tony Blair feel at all responsible for this?

lol no
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 11, 2014, 10:47:58 PM
America will do whatever is the most expensive option possible. That's why they have wars. To pacify the industrial military complex. Actually going into a place and winning a war in a week is no use at all. Expensive airstrikes over several months, support, setting up military cities, medical supplies, food supplies ... that's what the US is about.

So this suits them. Poke ISIS for as long as possible using the most expensive hardward possible in the most inefficient way possible, means plenty of tax payer money wasted and massive amounts of debt generated. Oh, and absolutely don't wipe out the enemy. Its important they can regroup, rebrand and rejihad again somewhere else.

Britain will want a piece of this too. However the British public are kind of up to speed. We know war is a racket and we largely have stopped giving a hoot about arabs killing each other, despite our media doing its best to show as many injured children as it possibly can. I think the British will try to get in on the action, but there is no way we will before our general election on 7th May 2015 as it would be suicide for the Conservatives.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 11, 2014, 11:04:11 PM
I wish this didn't have to involve the U.S., really.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 11, 2014, 11:06:13 PM
America will do whatever is the most expensive option possible. That's why they have wars. To pacify the industrial military complex. Actually going into a place and winning a war in a week is no use at all. Expensive airstrikes over several months, support, setting up military cities, medical supplies, food supplies ... that's what the US is about.

So this suits them. Poke ISIS for as long as possible using the most expensive hardward possible in the most inefficient way possible, means plenty of tax payer money wasted and massive amounts of debt generated. Oh, and absolutely don't wipe out the enemy. Its important they can regroup, rebrand and rejihad again somewhere else.

Britain will want a piece of this too. However the British public are kind of up to speed. We know war is a racket and we largely have stopped giving a hoot about arabs killing each other, despite our media doing its best to show as many injured children as it possibly can. I think the British will try to get in on the action, but there is no way we will before our general election on 7th May 2015 as it would be suicide for the Conservatives.

Is that why you guys are building brand new aircraft carriers and heavily contributing to the JSF? The most expensive option here would actually be to engage the ISIS in a coordinated ground war. No one would do that following the events of the last decade, so for now it's air strikes and humanitarian missions.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 12, 2014, 01:21:44 AM
I'm convinced that we only narrowly avoided another huge invasion with the Syria situation last year, due mainly to the overwhelmingly negative response from the American people.  Here's hoping we can keep it up for this nonsense.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 12, 2014, 07:56:47 AM
America will do whatever is the most expensive option possible. That's why they have wars. To pacify the industrial military complex. Actually going into a place and winning a war in a week is no use at all. Expensive airstrikes over several months, support, setting up military cities, medical supplies, food supplies ... that's what the US is about.

So this suits them. Poke ISIS for as long as possible using the most expensive hardward possible in the most inefficient way possible, means plenty of tax payer money wasted and massive amounts of debt generated. Oh, and absolutely don't wipe out the enemy. Its important they can regroup, rebrand and rejihad again somewhere else.

Britain will want a piece of this too. However the British public are kind of up to speed. We know war is a racket and we largely have stopped giving a hoot about arabs killing each other, despite our media doing its best to show as many injured children as it possibly can. I think the British will try to get in on the action, but there is no way we will before our general election on 7th May 2015 as it would be suicide for the Conservatives.

Is that why you guys are building brand new aircraft carriers and heavily contributing to the JSF? The most expensive option here would actually be to engage the ISIS in a coordinated ground war. No one would do that following the events of the last decade, so for now it's air strikes and humanitarian missions.
Actually we are playing a new game. Someone has cleverly worked out that if we include purchasing weapons in our GDP figures, the more weapons we buy, the more productive we seem. So we can now buy more and more, spend more and more, and yet for all the world, it looks like we are actually becoming a wealthier nation.

Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28679674
In the past, government spending on weapons was considered to be just consumption by governments - from next month some of it will count as an investment.

We aren't alone. Everyone is doing it all of a sudden. Lies, damned lies and statistics.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/05/23/Italys-GDP-data-to-include-prostitution-drug-trade/4121400871912/

Higher GDP means we can borrow more and get further in debt. Yay!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 08:02:29 AM
Yes, but you're still buying brand new jets and aircraft carriers. Semantics aside, you brits obviously aren't as smart as you think.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 12, 2014, 08:04:23 AM
Thork, you're scary sometimes. Please don't ever be a politician.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 12, 2014, 08:09:54 AM
Yes, but you're still buying brand new jets and aircraft carriers. Semantics aside, you brits obviously aren't as smart as you think.
The objective is to loot the tax payer for as much money as possible without causing civil unrest. We are right up there as some of the best in the world. We are pretty smart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Thork, you're scary sometimes. Please don't ever be a politician.
I'd be an awesome politician ... and you'd be on the next flight back to Poland. >:(
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 08:12:18 AM
What does relating tax revenue to GDP say? And why is it relevant to you numpties building aircraft carriers?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 12, 2014, 08:17:32 AM
What does relating tax revenue to GDP say? And why is it relevant to you numpties building aircraft carriers?
We are experts in stealth tax. It is easy to say my earnings aren't taxed at world record levels, but add in things like fuel duty, our VAT rate, stamp duty, inheritance tax, tax on fags and booze, business rates etc etc and you have a better picture of how much of our wealth ends up back in the treasury, ready for handing out to vested interests. GDP to tax is one of the best ways to see this picture as it is all tax returned against output. (Assuming our GDP rate isn't bastardised to the point that it becomes meaningless too. )

Building an aircraft carrier is now not consumption. Its viewed as a plus, not a minus to our GDP. Imagine we spend 5 times our GDP on weapons (using debt) ... the numbers would say we are 6 times richer than we were despite us being absolutely broke.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 08:35:48 AM
But it is consumption. All carriers and jets do is suck up resources and scare Argentina into not attacking piddling islands in the middle of nowhere. They're the exact opposite of an investment, they reward absolutely nothing while sucking up resources. And their role in modern warfare is extremely questionable.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 12, 2014, 08:44:08 AM
But it is consumption. All carriers and jets do is suck up resources and scare Argentina into not attacking piddling islands in the middle of nowhere. They're the exact opposite of an investment, they reward absolutely nothing while sucking up resources. And their role in modern warfare is extremely questionable.
I know this. But that's how we are now wasting our money. Its a lot more politically palatable.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 08:52:07 AM
But it is consumption. All carriers and jets do is suck up resources and scare Argentina into not attacking piddling islands in the middle of nowhere. They're the exact opposite of an investment, they reward absolutely nothing while sucking up resources. And their role in modern warfare is extremely questionable.
I know this. But that's how we are now wasting our money. Its a lot more politically palatable.

Sure sounds like you Brits aren't too smart ;)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 12, 2014, 09:49:39 AM
We just like feeling important every now and again, so we buy a new aircraft carrier. Rule Britannia!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 12, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Sure sounds like you Brits aren't too smart ;)
Please don't confuse Thork's fantasy for what's actually happening. They're not that stupid.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 10:33:47 AM
I feel this article (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/iran-at-saban/posts/2014/08/11-pollack-isis-offensive-against-iraq-kurds?utm_campaign=Center+for+Middle+East+Policy&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=13760801&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9MjUQ65tP_E1akZZg6zZAZwHhOg4nz32zgTXrAr_C7TEmSQ5_Lqrb5eNkUYDQHiouHcXeBg53yj2oKf3UmI0U5Hw58Lw&_hsmi=13760801) offers a very good breakdown of the situation, including assessment of US air power in the region.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 12, 2014, 02:54:53 PM
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/uk-britain-bae-systems-idUKKBN0GB28B20140812

And today we ordered 3 more patrol ships. We are going to end up with the largest navy in the world at this rate. Back to the good old days I suppose. ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 07:48:42 PM
Three? Do you know how many LCS the USN is aiming to build? You guys have a long way to go before you can challenge your big kid.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 12, 2014, 10:47:43 PM
ISIS can't last. they have a shit flag.

(http://www.loeser.us/flags/images/hate/al_qaeda1.gif)

Seriously, look at that. I could do better with five minutes on Paint

If you're going to take nation-building seriously, you need a good flag. One which gets its point across without words. If you have to write on your flag, it isn't a strong enough idea. It's why we lost the world cup, too many people were flying flags like this:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/10/article-1285492-09CCC2F2000005DC-743_233x311.jpg)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/lVMAAMXQVT9TAmka/$_35.JPG)
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mPZNXtVno6T-A1D7Tw-gLgA.jpg)

You don't see Germany flying flags with 'Deutschland' scrawled across them or corporate logos over the top of the national symbol.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h5_ePisflSA/UsQ-aOIwtEI/AAAAAAAAGV8/actSaBWh3e4/s1600/World_Cup_2006_German_fans_at_Bochum.jpg)

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 11:00:37 PM
I realise you're just jesting, but they already have a pretty solidified position in Iraq. They occupy land that they not only maintain a strong presence in, but they enjoy the support of many locals. One of the big reasons they've been so successful is because the Kurdish and Iraqi army have had little interest in holding the lands of those who dislike/hate them.

Given the unlikely nature of a Western invasion, it looks like ISIS are set to maintain a small state in the middle east for the forseeable future.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 12, 2014, 11:13:23 PM
So did Al-Qaida, the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc, etc. They have no real means of long-term survival, all their weapons and equipment is stolen, what happens when they need spare parts and repairs?

But I digress from my earlier point. If ISIS/ ISIL/ IS/ The Islamic State wants to succeed it needs to get its name sorted and choose a better flag. Here's something I knocked up in 2 minutes in GIMP, they insist on using the black and white colour scheme so I assume they're going for the 'pirate' look, so threw together some nice Islamic imagery in a manner vaguely reminiscent of the Jolly Roger.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll232/chrissetti/Design/isisalt_zps6ba570b2.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/chrissetti/media/Design/isisalt_zps6ba570b2.jpg.html)

You're welcome, fundamentalists. Please note, this is the 'classic' arrangement, the swords can be exchanged for kalashnikovs on request to represent a hip, modern State of terror who knows how to connect to da yoof. I'm available for comissions on the condition that nobody feels the need to scribble 'God is great' over it.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 12, 2014, 11:18:49 PM
You should replace the swords with AKs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 12, 2014, 11:25:32 PM
You should replace the swords with AKs.

I offer it as an option.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll232/chrissetti/isisak47_zps3217e529.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/chrissetti/media/isisak47_zps3217e529.jpg.html)

Special offer Buy One Get One Free! Treat your Imam to the ISIS Classic and build your street cred with the ISIS Urban Edition. Why not buy 50 mini flags for the little Jihadists in your family and get a customised head spike absolutely free! Or get to Paradise in style with a funky ISIS headband, nothing says 'hey there, virgins' like a genu-ine, bona-fide, all-cotton ISIS headband

Call Today!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 12, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
Brilliant.

I'll take 600 that can fit on the end of a pencil so that I can hand them out to the little school children.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 12, 2014, 11:55:31 PM
So did Al-Qaida, the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc, etc. They have no real means of long-term survival, all their weapons and equipment is stolen, what happens when they need spare parts and repairs?

Yes, because we fought 2 wars to get rid of them. Not all of their equipment is stolen, only some of it, and they had no issues using what they already owned to capture these weapons. They currently receive foreign funding and grass roots support from the civilians in many areas they control. It's not likely they're going anywhere soon.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 13, 2014, 07:08:03 AM
No, stick with the swords. they love a sword on a flag out there.

(http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-countries-flags/saudi-arabia-flag.gif)
The Saudi one had the same scribbly writing and a sword. Haven't these people heard of Helvetica? Its 2014. Develop a few type fonts for your silly scrawlings! Its like these people live in the middle ages or something.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 13, 2014, 09:50:54 AM
Stop shitting up my serious business ISIS thread with silly flag ramblings! >o<
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 13, 2014, 04:04:31 PM
Yeah, but they don't use swords often, Thork. AKs are more relevant. It gives outsiders a better understanding of what they're about just by looking at their flag.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 13, 2014, 04:19:29 PM
Yeah, but they don't use swords often, Thork. AKs are more relevant. It gives outsiders a better understanding of what they're about just by looking at their flag.
They still need swords to behead people. Allah stipulates that swords are mandatory. Nowhere in the Quran does it say you have to have an AK-47. That's more of a 21st Century accessory.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/126dwz8.png)

I'm thinking something more like this.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 13, 2014, 05:00:44 PM
Even so, ISIS followers seem to think that AKs = Allah's Divine Retribution.  Which is either a complete misunderstanding of the religious text or evidence that they don't actually worship the Quran and instead worship the Egyptian Goddess Isis.

Isis being the Goddess of fertility, nature, and magic. She was also associated with slaves, sinners, artisans and the downtrodden in general. This seems like it would fly in the face of their known values and beliefs, but those could easily be a cover for a more secretive systematic takeover of world religion with the ultimate goal of bringing back the Egyptian pantheon.

I suggest that ISIS change their organization's name to avoid outside confusion regarding what they stand for. Maybe: "Sand People with Guns" or "Allah's Supreme Warriors of Justice".
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 13, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
Yeah, but they don't use swords often, Thork. AKs are more relevant. It gives outsiders a better understanding of what they're about just by looking at their flag.
They still need swords to behead people. Allah stipulates that swords are mandatory. Nowhere in the Quran does it say you have to have an AK-47. That's more of a 21st Century accessory.



I'm thinking something more like this.

No, no th*rking writing!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 14, 2014, 01:32:34 PM
Yeah, but they don't use swords often, Thork. AKs are more relevant. It gives outsiders a better understanding of what they're about just by looking at their flag.
They still need swords to behead people. Allah stipulates that swords are mandatory. Nowhere in the Quran does it say you have to have an AK-47. That's more of a 21st Century accessory.



I'm thinking something more like this.

No, no th*rking writing!
But the writing suggests chicken as a healthy alternative.  :-\
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 19, 2014, 11:42:09 PM
Yes it's trending
Yes it's stupid

"Warning to America" (http://twitchy.com/2014/08/19/evil-straight-from-the-pits-of-hell-american-journalist-james-foley-reportedly-beheaded-by-isis/)

The actual video cuts before the beheading, so whether or not this actually happened is still up for debate.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 12:08:30 AM
The full video is here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc1_1408481278

You don't see the entire process, but you do see the result. His head's definitely off.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 20, 2014, 12:44:54 AM
These guys really love to cut off heads.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 20, 2014, 12:46:47 AM
This one pales in comparison to the Russian beheading video released a while ago. But it's still fucking sick, if it's real.


I have some doubts about the validity of the video. That guy looks like he's in pretty good shape, no bruising, scars, or anything... and he's been held captive for 2 years now (?). I thought ISIS was supposed to be hardcore? Yet they cut the video before the beheading. What's that about? This seems like Hollywood tom-foolery created as an excuse for Murka to put more troops back in that hell hole.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 12:56:45 AM
That video is meant for mass distribution. It's supposed to convey a message. 1-2 minutes of some guy hacking away at a spine with that tiny knife would mess up the momentum of the video. The person doing the hacking also usually looks like an idiot while they're doing it. We've seen this kind of editing before in similar videos.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 20, 2014, 01:06:59 AM
Surely the Qur'an doesn't approve of slow and poorly done decapitations?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 20, 2014, 01:42:44 AM
Surely the Qur'an doesn't approve of slow and poorly done decapitations?

I'm not sure they care
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 20, 2014, 01:44:54 AM
Surely the Qur'an doesn't approve of slow and poorly done decapitations?

I'm not sure they care

Yeah, I didn't figure but it goes to show even these cunts are hypocrites. It's all about power. I know this is obvious but I can't help but be bothered.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 20, 2014, 01:47:16 AM
It is too fucked up not to be bothered by. Why can't we just nuke em again?

Oooh righttt "innocent people".

What about an armed take over of the entire Middle East?

They are tossing sticks and stones at the most powerful military in the world. What do they hope to accomplish from this? Are they asking us to leave them alone? Because murdering an innocent man in cold blood isn't the way to go about that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 01:49:25 AM
It is too fucked up not to be bothered by. Why can't we just nuke em again?

Oooh righttt "innocent people".

What about an armed take over of the entire Middle East?

Great idea. We'll flood an area that covers millions of square miles with soldiers and tell everyone to behave, or else.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 20, 2014, 01:53:17 AM
It is too fucked up not to be bothered by. Why can't we just nuke em again?

Oooh righttt "innocent people".

What about an armed take over of the entire Middle East?

Great idea. We'll flood an area that covers millions of square miles with soldiers and tell everyone to behave, or else.


Why not? Take over. Set up a new government. Root out Islamic terror cells. Build skyscrapers and cities to create new opportunities for the non-murderous sand people. Control by marshal law until everything calms down. I used to be all: "peace and love, violence is not the way" but lately I've found myself seeing the sense in murder for the greater good.

Do you have a better solution?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 20, 2014, 01:56:43 AM
It is too fucked up not to be bothered by. Why can't we just nuke em again?

Oooh righttt "innocent people".

What about an armed take over of the entire Middle East?

They are tossing sticks and stones at the most powerful military in the world. What do they hope to accomplish from this? Are they asking us to leave them alone? Because murdering an innocent man in cold blood isn't the way to go about that.

Welcome to the party. They've been cutting heads off of anyone they can capture, they've shared videos showing them lining up youths and shooting them in the back of the head, they've spread pictures of crucifixions carrying written messages courtesy of ISIS. They're a bunch of fucking savage fundamentalists, and I'm happy to see western nations stepping up to provide aid for those who they're murdering in addition to the US air strikes. Just recently, the Peshmerga managed to recapture a major dam in the region with the help of these air strikes.

Given their local support network, it's unlikely you could ever stamp them out. But with some help, the Iraqi's should be able to reclaim some land from them and significantly reduce their sphere of influence.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 02:07:27 AM
It is too fucked up not to be bothered by. Why can't we just nuke em again?

Oooh righttt "innocent people".

What about an armed take over of the entire Middle East?

Great idea. We'll flood an area that covers millions of square miles with soldiers and tell everyone to behave, or else.


Why not? Take over. Set up a new government.

How do you set up a new government, and what kind of government? A democracy? You can't force democracy on people. That has never worked. Democracy has to grow naturally.

Quote
Root out Islamic terror cells. Build skyscrapers and cities to create new opportunities for the non-murderous sand people. Control by marshal law until everything calms down. I used to be all: "peace and love, violence is not the way" but lately I've found myself seeing the sense in murder for the greater good.

Apart from building new cities, isn't this pretty much what we already tried and failed to do?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 20, 2014, 02:12:43 AM
We obviously didn't try hard enough.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2014, 02:18:24 AM
Why not? Take over. Set up a new government. Root out Islamic terror cells.
Yes, because that's worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan. ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 20, 2014, 02:23:40 AM
Why not? Take over. Set up a new government. Root out Islamic terror cells.
Yes, because that's worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan. ::)

I blame the hippies.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 20, 2014, 09:06:27 PM
Paging thunk
http://rt.com/uk/181680-strip-citizenship-uk-jihadists/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 20, 2014, 10:17:48 PM
Its a nice idea by UKIP, but I'm a regular guy. Not a politician, not a lawyer, not a human rights expert.

And yet I know that
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness#Stateless_person
a range of regional and international human rights treaties guarantee a right to nationality

You can't make British people stateless by removing their passports, no matter how popular and sensible the idea might seem. Why doesn't Farage at least consult with some legal experts before announcing new policies that he can't deliver?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 20, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
I just thought you might like to see it. Do people who abuse human rights on the level of the I.S. deserve to keep their human rights in topic when discussing whether or not they should get to keep their citizenship? Nope.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 20, 2014, 10:23:10 PM
I'd say anyone who commits a crime should forfeit their human rights, but that doesn't stop lawyers securing Xboxes and voting rights for inmates.

The law is an arse and all that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 20, 2014, 10:48:04 PM
Sadly, this is an ideology fight and those are never won easily.  Our best bet is to isolate the area until they tear each other apart or settle down.


Likely one then the other. 


It could take a while though.  Like half a century or more.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 11:13:20 PM
I'd say anyone who commits a crime should forfeit their human rights, but that doesn't stop lawyers securing Xboxes and voting rights for inmates.

The law is an arse and all that.

Any crime?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 20, 2014, 11:22:11 PM
Any crime where you get a custodial sentence, certainly. If you are deprived the right to freedom, I don't see why you should maintain your right to vote for example.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 20, 2014, 11:28:13 PM
...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 20, 2014, 11:28:59 PM
Er, prisoners can't vote. The ability to vote also isn't a human right.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 20, 2014, 11:31:24 PM
Our European overlords disagree. And somehow despite the UK having definitely not lost a war in Europe, seems to do whatever Europe tells it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325776/Prisoners-right-vote-Government-loses-Europe.html
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 20, 2014, 11:34:08 PM
Er, prisoners can't vote. The ability to vote also isn't a human right.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21 disagrees with you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 21, 2014, 02:45:11 AM
Er, prisoners can't vote. The ability to vote also isn't a human right.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21 disagrees with you.

Nobody cares what the UN thinks.  You know this.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 21, 2014, 03:01:06 AM
Er, prisoners can't vote. The ability to vote also isn't a human right.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21 disagrees with you.

Nobody cares what the UN thinks.  You know this.

Fair enough. I retract my last post.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 21, 2014, 06:57:59 AM
Why doesn't Farage at least consult with some legal experts before announcing new policies that he can't deliver?
Because he's not the part of the filthy "people who know what they're doing" Westminster clique.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 21, 2014, 09:12:11 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/20/beheading-video-prompts-calls-for-us-to-escalate-campaign-against-isis/

Yeah yeah fox news. They confirmed the journalists identity. Wonder what ISIS thought public decapitation would inspire in the west besides getting them bombed harder.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 09:43:44 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/20/beheading-video-prompts-calls-for-us-to-escalate-campaign-against-isis/

Yeah yeah fox news. They confirmed the journalists identity. Wonder what ISIS thought public decapitation would inspire in the west besides getting them bombed harder.

Its not going to happen. The UK government seem to have lost the battle for hearts and minds again. Britain won't be assisting. And when Britain doesn't assist, the US doesn't go - see Syria.
Whilst the US is air striking Iraq again in the region, I don't see that as lasting very long at all. Britain are about to come out and refuse to help there as well.
Now its not like the US couldn't do it alone, but the US likes to be seen as acting on 'behalf of the world' and 'joining the world in the fight against terrorism' etc. But of course if the rest of the world isn't interested, the US just looks like a large country invading for oil again - which it is.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 21, 2014, 09:47:33 AM
No one's talking about invasion, at least no one with any power. The current air support and let the peshmerga/iraqi security forces fight strategy is working. It's cheap and arguably the most hands off approach. I don't see why the US would stop.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Air support is not cheap. It is seriously expensive.

Popping rockets through windows and caves is also not very hands off.

And the US will stop once they are alone. You can't be representing the UN by yourself. It doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 21, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation (http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation)


Bunch of thugs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:14:15 PM
The easiest solution would be to declare an outright war on the entire Muslim world, a la Crusade style, just as they have done to the Western world, a la Jihad style, and turn them into a parking lot, and build a few very large Wal-marts there when we are finished.

Let's face it, people: Muslims, particularly Arabs, are one step up from primates. Only the latest models can talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails. The Muslim world should should be forced into obedience. If it refuses, it should be eliminated. The ISIS should simply be eliminated. Every single one of them should be killed on sight.

All Arabs in Greater Israel (including Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, ALL of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights) should be deported to Arab countries. Those who refuse to leave should be shot. Those who agree can take six months living wage and compensation for property they will lose if any.

All Muslims living in the West should be forcibly deported to their nations of origin. Those who are native to the West should be given a chance to convert, be deported to a Muslim state, or shot. The Muslim Faith and all members of it should be declared a danger to the State of first magnitude.

Once all Muslims have returned to the Muslim world, that part of the world should be sealed off. No one should be allowed in or out. No one should be permitted to buy, trade, or sell with it. There should be absolutely no commerce and no communication between Islam and the civilised world. The Dome of the Rock should be blown up, and all other Muslim presence in Israel should be obliterated by the Israel Defense Force. The ONLY contact between the Muslim world and the civilised world should be where they border each other, and that should be with a DMZ comparable to what exists between the two Koreas.

Any necessary contact between Islam and the rest of the world should be conducted on the basis of absolute superiority of the non-Muslim side. Any refusal of Muslims to accept that should be met by bullets. It is a VERY simple matter. It would take perhaps five years, maybe less, to implement the entire plan.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 04:23:30 PM
A very simple matter to kill or deport 1.6 billion people?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
Actually, 1.6 billion persons in the world are Muslim. The number of them living in Greater Israel, or in the West, is MUCH less. There are about four million so-called "Palestinians", and the number of Muslims living where they don't belong in Western Europe or the Western Hemisphere is certainly not high. YET.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 04:28:09 PM
All Muslims living in the West should be forcibly deported to their nations of origin. Those who are native to the West should be given a chance to convert, be deported to a Muslim state, or shot. The Muslim Faith and all members of it should be declared a danger to the State of first magnitude.

Can we deport all the Jews as well?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:30:38 PM
I won't go there with you, except to say that most of the Nobel Prize winners of the last century have been Jews. So, if you agree to not use any of the discoveries that Jews have made in science, or in medicine, or a variety of other fields, then sure, why not?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:32:11 PM
So when you all start getting polio, don't come asking for the vaccine for it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 04:34:01 PM
Being stuffed together in Israel should be every Jew's dream come true, no?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
Once Israel is expanded to its rightful size from the Nile to the Euphrates, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But, again, when you all start getting polio, and other interesting things that Jews taught you how to deal with, you're not allowed to use those inventions and techniques. Stephen Hawking isn't allowed to talk, by the way. His voice box device was invented in Israel. So, read your Hebrew Bibles, study Genesis, give us the Land that God gave us as legitimately ours, and then yes, we will gladly go to it. Not a problem. And then read Zechariah 8:23, when the Gentile shall take hold of the fringe of the Jew, or rather, 10 Gentiles shall, and shall say, "we will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 21, 2014, 04:44:54 PM
Please don't feed the fictional character.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 04:45:45 PM
Alright, if we're not allowed to use Jewish inventions, then you're not allowed to use Christian inventions. Does that sound fine?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 04:48:17 PM
Except for one minor problem. Christianity was invented by a bunch of Jews. So you would be rather stuck.  Remember that you worship a Jewish Rabbi and call him God. Bit of a problem, don't you think?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 04:50:05 PM
Not really, no. Are you saying the conditions are not fine? Would Jews not be fine without inventions that weren't their own?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 21, 2014, 04:52:14 PM
Its funny: we didn't have these problems before 1945.

Just saying...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:00:56 PM
Since Christians, for their very existence, depend on us, anything they invent ultimately comes back to us. Its kind of like if your grandfather had decided not to have kids. You wouldn't exist because your father wouldn't have been around to have you.

Without us, Christians wouldn't have existed to invent anything. There is a reason they refer to it as "Judaeo-Christian" Civilisation rather than the other way round. We came first. You can't get at it by going backward. Your very ethics, values, and morals, and thus your entire creative spirit came from us. Your ability to invent, to think, came from us. So no, I don't think the conditions apply at all.

I'm not certain what the reference to 1945 implies. Certainly the war, the aftermath, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 gave Jews a sense of themselves that we had not had before. After the murder of so many, we learned for the first time in our long history of abuse not to tolerate being pushed around any more, and we learned how to fight back, at long last. No one will ever f--k with Jews again, and get away with it. The Nazis were the last to pull that shit.

So, Dave, if that is what you mean, yes, those three years from '45-'48 were watershed years. For that matter, so was '67, and '73. Both were years where Israel itself, and Jews everywhere basically stood up and said, don't fuck with the Jews. We're tired of it. If that is what you refer to, then you are correct.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 05:04:13 PM
Do you actually know anything about history?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:04:48 PM
I have a Master's Degree in it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 05:04:53 PM
I'm not sure why you think that you get any claim for other people's inventions based on what their religion was. I seriously fucking doubt the inventor of polio vaccine would appreciate having his contributions be exclusive to a bunch of warmongering invaders, but since that's the condition you want to set up, then you must also accept that anything that isn't the invention of a Jewish individual, you don't get to have. Again, is that not fine with you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 05:07:04 PM
I have a Master's Degree in it.

Really?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:11:51 PM
I think my response to that question has been rather clear. You are playing with semantics. Let's cut the crap. The fact is, that Jonas Salk was a Jew, as were the majority of the Nobel Prize winners. The point is, their research goes to all of humanity, Jew and non-Jew. They knew that, you know that, I know that. Let's get back to the original argument. Muslims have proven themselves to be a danger to the civilised world. Neither Jews nor Christians blow themselves up on busses to kill women and children. Neither Jews nor Christians hide behind women and children when they fire off rocket launchers at their enemies in a war. Neither Jews nor Christians chop off heads and videotape the shit. I think you see my point.

And yes, really.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 05:15:48 PM
What semantics? These are conditions that you yourself wanted. If those inventions are for all of humanity, then why do you want to claim them for Jews only?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:19:45 PM
I only said that to get you to think. You seem to have the urge to purge the world of Jews. We, as I said in the last post, are not the savage animals that Muslims, particularly Arabs, have shown themselves to be. I repeat, "Neither Jews nor Christians blow themselves up on busses to kill women and children. Neither Jews nor Christians hide behind women and children when they fire off rocket launchers at their enemies in a war. Neither Jews nor Christians chop off heads and videotape the shit." Does anything more need to be said?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 05:25:09 PM
But the Jewish terrorists did stuff like that during their terrorist campaign in Palestine after the second World War. Blowing up hotels, executing captured British soldiers, assassinating UN officials. Using bombs and that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 21, 2014, 05:26:24 PM
I won't go there with you, except to say that most of the Nobel Prize winners of the last century have been Jews.
It's a conspiracy, you see. Jews give prizes to Jews to make Jews look better and then claim that they're great because they gave themselves prizes. They also control the world's finances and poison wells.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 05:28:11 PM
I only said that to get you to think. You seem to have the urge to purge the world of Jews. We, as I said in the last post, are not the savage animals that Muslims, particularly Arabs, have shown themselves to be. I repeat, "Neither Jews nor Christians blow themselves up on busses to kill women and children. Neither Jews nor Christians hide behind women and children when they fire off rocket launchers at their enemies in a war. Neither Jews nor Christians chop off heads and videotape the shit." Does anything more need to be said?

I didn't say anything about purging Jews. Like you said, "I only said that to get you to think". You're proposing genocide in the same breath as you're calling out Muslims to be savages. If all Jews were indeed like you, then yeah, maybe there would be some pretty strong grounds for a purge. But I don't actually want to condemn innocent people for the actions of extremists, unlike you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 21, 2014, 05:31:06 PM
Can this racist/ trolling twat be permabanned yet?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:35:50 PM
Actually, although the Hotel King David was indeed blown up, it was a legitimate military target, since it was the headquarters of the British military. And, in general, the Jews did NOT go after civilians (there were unfortunate exceptions, yes). The British military was, of course, a legitimate target, as is any military. If the Gazan Arabs were to restrict themselves to going after the IDF, I might still classify them as an enemy, but they would at least be following the laws of war. Because they target civilians, they are terrorists.

I'm not proposing genocide, either. I am proposing restricting Muslims to the part of the world that they come from, and that they can legitimately call home. Get them out of Greater Israel and the Christian World, and back into their own shithole countries and keep them there. It is that simple. And there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Until such time as I hear a Muslim actually stand up and condemn ISIS in no uncertain terms, loudly and unequivocally, there is no such thing. And after having read the Qur'an three times, I can assure you that the only thing Muslims will accept is a non-Muslim world that is subject to the Jizya tax, or converted, or dead. End of story.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 05:39:16 PM
ISIS is literally causing shit among other Muslims. Why wouldn't Muslims condemn them?

And I don't really see what Israel is doing and has been doing for the past half a century to Palestine any more civil than what is going on in the Muslim world.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:48:38 PM
"Palestine" doesn't exist. The word was invented by the Romans after they defeated the Jews in 70 CE and deported most (but not all) Jews from the Land of Israel. They renamed the land Syria Palestina to de-emphasise Jewish claims to the territory, which go back 4500 years. There has NEVER been a "Palestinian" nationality. Gaza was controlled by Egypt. The "West Bank" (Judaea and Samaria) was controlled by Jordan. Therefore, the residents were Egyptians and Jordanians. Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo, went to college there, and fought in the Egyptian Armed Forces. That makes him, by International Law, a citizen of Egypt. So, if there is an independent, internationally recognised nation of Palestine at any point in history, I can show you a map. You can point out this state on a map, yes? You can point to its capital. You can tell me what kind of government it had. You can tell me the currency it used. You can tell me the names of some of its leaders before Arafat. You can give me the dates of its independence or founding. You can tell me other important dates in its history. You can give me important imports and exports. You can give me its GDP for certain years.

No? Really? Why not? Oh, that's why. Because such a nation never existed, and does not now exist. Now I know. Ok. Thank you for that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 05:52:01 PM
yes and that fully excuses the atrocities Israel is committing

Thanks for the perfectly irrelevant history lesson
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 05:54:21 PM
Exactly what atrocities is Israel committing? Attacking military targets that Hamas puts in civilian areas, thus guaranteeing that non-combatants will be killed? How is that Israel's fault?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
Exactly what atrocities is Israel committing?
Asks the Jew.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israelgaza-conflict-israeli-attack-on-un-school-which-killed-10-people-a-gross-violation-of-international-law-30480709.html
Funny how Jews completely ignore everything Israel does.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 06:18:38 PM
One wonders if said school, like so many, was housing rockets. If it was attacked in error, I am sure the IDF will look into the matter. It always does when asked. Hamas, on the other hand, has as its GOAL the killing of civilians. Of course, hearing the UN complain about anything makes me laugh. They lost credibility about 40 years ago. Such luminaries as Cuba, Saudi Arabia, China, and Syria have sat on their Human Rights Council! I'm waiting for North Korea to be given a seat.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 06:29:54 PM
One wonders if said school, like so many, was housing rockets.

All the information we have indicates that it was simply housing refugees.

Quote
If it was attacked in error, I am sure the IDF will look into the matter. It always does when asked.

Thank goodness.

Quote
Hamas, on the other hand, has as its GOAL the killing of civilians.

Funny, they aren't nearly as good at it.

Quote
Of course, hearing the UN complain about anything makes me laugh. They lost credibility about 40 years ago. Such luminaries as Cuba, Saudi Arabia, China, and Syria have sat on their Human Rights Council! I'm waiting for North Korea to be given a seat.

This is completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 06:29:57 PM
One wonders if said school, like so many, was housing rockets.
Well it was definitely housing school children. Why would you even ask a stupid question like that? You don't fire rockets at a school during school hours. Do it at night. Unless of course you are trying to cause as much misery and fear as possible a la Israel.

If it was attacked in error,
Yes, Israel have no maps and no guidance systems. Stop making excuses for the disgusting behaviour of Israel. It doesn't matter that they are Jews. They are behaving like animals.

I am sure the IDF will look into the matter. It always does when asked.
And I'm sure somewhere along the line a Jew working for the IDF will pick this up with the same attitude as you and make sure it is swept under the carpet. Judge, jury and executioner.

Hamas, on the other hand, has as its GOAL the killing of civilians.
Hamas goal is to stop genocide on the West Bank.
(http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/16/palestinian_loss_of_land_55.jpg)

Of course, hearing the UN complain about anything makes me laugh. They lost credibility about 40 years ago. Such luminaries as Cuba, Saudi Arabia, China, and Syria have sat on their Human Rights Council! I'm waiting for North Korea to be given a seat.
Israel are a member. That says it all.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 06:44:12 PM
First Point:

Arabs don't deserve to live in Eretz Israel at all. They should be deported to the Arab country of their choice with 6 months living wage and compensation through eminent domain for any property lost, due to that fact that Jews have a claim on the land that dates back 4500 years. Therefore, the map is not an issue.

Second Point:

I expect that the IDF was targeting a military target and hit the school by mistake. The article did NOT say what Israel was trying to hit. They only said that a school was hit. This is typical. A one-sided story is all too often told when the subject matter is Israel or the Jews.

Third Point:

As far as being members of the UN, I don't think either the US or Israel should be members. In fact, I think the UN should be eliminated, and the building in the US should be blown up, preferably with everybody inside it, except for US and Israeli representatives, but since that would be deemed uncivilised, allow them 12 hours to leave, and then convert the building to other uses.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
And actually, the map is wrong. since from 1949 to 1967 Gaza was Egyptian and the West Bank was Jordanian, both of whom started a war with Israel in '67 and lost. Losers don't get to have land back that they lose in a war they started.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Blanko on August 21, 2014, 06:50:37 PM
Israel should not be a country at all. It only exists thanks to post-Hitler guilt tripping.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 06:50:45 PM
Quote
Second Point:

I expect that the IDF was targeting a military target and hit the school by mistake. The article did NOT say what Israel was trying to hit. They only said that a school was hit. This is typical. A one-sided story is all too often told when the subject matter is Israel or the Jews.

Given that this is incident is not unique, this is either completely untrue or Israel is extremely incompetent. Either way, they shouldn't be launching rockets at anything.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 06:51:05 PM
First Point:

Arabs don't deserve to live in Eretz Israel at all. They should be deported to the Arab country of their choice with 6 months living wage and compensation through eminent domain for any property lost, due to that fact that Jews have a claim on the land that dates back 4500 years. Therefore, the map is not an issue.

By the same logic Americans don't deserve to live in the USA because the native American tribes were there thousands of years earlier.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 06:52:39 PM
First point. The Palestinians are from that area. The Jews were given that state by the UN and European Jews such as the AshKenazi were moved there from places like Romania because they were still hated by most in Europe. Fun fact: they were nearly given Madagascar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

Ultimately no one wanted the Jews and sticking them out of the way in the desert seemed like the best option. They certainly have no claim to that land. They could have been sent anywhere.

Second point: Are you saying that Israel's rockets are so terrible, they can't hit their targets, despite the fact they buy them from the US and the US can put a rocket through a window at 200 miles?

Third point: Without the UN, Israel wouldn't even have any Jews in it. I think at this stage you need to stop listening to Jewish versions of events because Jews are liars.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
Israel usually targets things that have been proven to have shit in them that doesn't belong there. I'm not disputing this could have been an error. If it was, then it was. Nobody is perfect, and that goes for Israel as well. But lets face it. Nobody seemed to give a shit when the United States and Britain bombed the holy hell out of Dresden in WWII, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. Nobody cared much about the Japanese at the end of WWII with the nukes. War is hell, folks.

Israel is NOT going anywhere. You can argue that it shouldn't be there, or anything else you choose. The fact is, you only succeed in making yourself look like a schmuck. Hamas aims at civilians on purpose. The only reason they don't kill thousands is because of the Israeli invented (and American financed) Iron Dome. Israel generally does NOT aim at civilians, though there might be exceptions, which are unfortunate.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 07:02:42 PM
Israel only succeeds in losing all sympathy from general populations of neutrals around the world. And eventually there will be more and more calls to stop handing over taxes to fund this rogue state. Jewish arrogance will alienate the world again and the day the US has no more support for arming it, is the day Iran, Saudi, Iraq, Syria and everyone else in the vicinity wipes the Jews from the land in which they squat.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 21, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
Why do people think that they have a right to live somewhere other than the place they (or their parents) were born?
I propose that we all move back to our ancestral homeland in Ethiopia.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:13:02 PM
I am well aware of the Madagascar Plan. There was also a Uganda Plan. But its all ridiculous. The British ultimately fucked up by trying to please too many people. First they offered the Balfour Declaration to the Jews in 1917. Then they tried to please the Arabs. Then they gave the problem to the UN. Then, when British Mandate Palestine (Jordan and Israel) had been divided into Jordan and "Palestine", Jews took matters into their own hands and created Israel, and then the saga of the "Palestinians" and Israel began.

The fact is that Eretz Israel is the only land that I am aware of promised to a people by God. You can accept that or not. If you choose not to, that is your problem, not mine.

Thork, you are a joke. To refer back to a question asked earlier. I tell you what. Non-Jews can use every single thing that Jews have invented in the history of the world except one thing. The Old Testament. Try to have your civilisation without the Old Testament. Try to have Jesus. Try to have Christianity. Try to have anything in your existence that matters a damn.

The fact is your society is indebted to the Jew for everything you hold dear. Without us, you would not exist. We would exist without you. We would be different, yes. BUT WE WOULD EXIST. You would not exist. So the next time you start whining about the Jews, just think: Jesus was a Jew. And if you are an atheist, guess what: you live in a Christian society that has given you the right to be an atheist. If you lived in any Muslim state you'd have been executed for insulting Islam.

Call Israel a rogue state all you want. The fact is that Arabs living there would rather do so than live in any other country in the Middle East. Ask them, and they will tell you. Israel is by no means perfect. But it is by far the only democratic country in the Middle East.

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 07:14:09 PM
Why do people think that they have a right to live somewhere other than the place they (or their parents) were born?
I propose that we all move back to our ancestral homeland in Ethiopia.
I propose you apologise to all the millions who gave their lives in wars over the last few thousand years to ensure you can make dumb remarks like that in your ancestral homelands.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 07:17:02 PM
Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence.

Wow. Thanks a lot, Jews.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:17:53 PM
You're welcome.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 21, 2014, 07:18:56 PM
Why do people think that they have a right to live somewhere other than the place they (or their parents) were born?
I propose that we all move back to our ancestral homeland in Ethiopia.
I propose you apologise to all the millions who gave their lives in wars over the last few thousand years to ensure you can make dumb remarks like that in your ancestral homelands.


Yeah cause my family is from Russia hahaha
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:20:04 PM
And by Israeli Arab I refer not to "Palestinian" but to Arabs who live within Israel proper, and hold Israeli citizenship.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 07:20:19 PM
I am well aware of the Madagascar Plan. There was also a Uganda Plan. But its all ridiculous. The British ultimately fucked up by trying to please too many people. First they offered the Balfour Declaration to the Jews in 1917. Then they tried to please the Arabs. Then they gave the problem to the UN. Then, when British Mandate Palestine (Jordan and Israel) had been divided into Jordan and "Palestine", Jews took matters into their own hands and created Israel, and then the saga of the "Palestinians" and Israel began.

The fact is that Eretz Israel is the only land that I am aware of promised to a people by God. You can accept that or not. If you choose not to, that is your problem, not mine.

Thork, you are a joke. To refer back to a question asked earlier. I tell you what. Non-Jews can use every single thing that Jews have invented in the history of the world except one thing. The Old Testament. Try to have your civilisation without the Old Testament. Try to have Jesus. Try to have Christianity. Try to have anything in your existence that matters a damn.

The fact is your society is indebted to the Jew for everything you hold dear. Without us, you would not exist. We would exist without you. We would be different, yes. BUT WE WOULD EXIST. You would not exist. So the next time you start whining about the Jews, just think: Jesus was a Jew. And if you are an atheist, guess what: you live in a Christian society that has given you the right to be an atheist. If you lived in any Muslim state you'd have been executed for insulting Islam.

Call Israel a rogue state all you want. The fact is that Arabs living there would rather do so than live in any other country in the Middle East. Ask them, and they will tell you. Israel is by no means perfect. But it is by far the only democratic country in the Middle East.

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

Bah, if it wasn't for the pesky Old Testament and Jesus we'd be worshipping the All-father, Odin. And Odin was cool, he had an eye patch, he was like a pirate and a god combined!

Also, I don't think Jews have invented as many things as you think they've invented. Your claim that the majority of Nobel Prize winners are Jewish seems a bit dubious, do you have a source for that?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 21, 2014, 07:27:58 PM
I am well aware of the Madagascar Plan. There was also a Uganda Plan. But its all ridiculous. The British ultimately fucked up by trying to please too many people. First they offered the Balfour Declaration to the Jews in 1917. Then they tried to please the Arabs. Then they gave the problem to the UN. Then, when British Mandate Palestine (Jordan and Israel) had been divided into Jordan and "Palestine", Jews took matters into their own hands and created Israel, and then the saga of the "Palestinians" and Israel began.

The fact is that Eretz Israel is the only land that I am aware of promised to a people by God. You can accept that or not. If you choose not to, that is your problem, not mine.

Thork, you are a joke. To refer back to a question asked earlier. I tell you what. Non-Jews can use every single thing that Jews have invented in the history of the world except one thing. The Old Testament. Try to have your civilisation without the Old Testament. Try to have Jesus. Try to have Christianity. Try to have anything in your existence that matters a damn.

The fact is your society is indebted to the Jew for everything you hold dear. Without us, you would not exist. We would exist without you. We would be different, yes. BUT WE WOULD EXIST. You would not exist. So the next time you start whining about the Jews, just think: Jesus was a Jew. And if you are an atheist, guess what: you live in a Christian society that has given you the right to be an atheist. If you lived in any Muslim state you'd have been executed for insulting Islam.

Call Israel a rogue state all you want. The fact is that Arabs living there would rather do so than live in any other country in the Middle East. Ask them, and they will tell you. Israel is by no means perfect. But it is by far the only democratic country in the Middle East.

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

Actually, can you take back Christianity and we can keep on with Grecian philosophy please?

Also, Jews owe their nobel prizes to Muslims since the Muslims were the most advanced scientific people in the medieval times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#Medieval_Islamic_science

The Jews are just standing on the backs of titans really.  The Greeks, Muslims, Europeans and Chinese have all done more to advance science than the Jews.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 07:30:13 PM
I am well aware of the Madagascar Plan. There was also a Uganda Plan. But its all ridiculous. The British ultimately fucked up by trying to please too many people. First they offered the Balfour Declaration to the Jews in 1917. Then they tried to please the Arabs. Then they gave the problem to the UN. Then, when British Mandate Palestine (Jordan and Israel) had been divided into Jordan and "Palestine", Jews took matters into their own hands and created Israel, and then the saga of the "Palestinians" and Israel began.
Jews didn't take matters into their own hands. Christ, most of them were still standing in boots filled with piss hoping the Germans were really defeated.

The fact is that Eretz Israel is the only land that I am aware of promised to a people by God. You can accept that or not. If you choose not to, that is your problem, not mine.
God said this did he? He conveniently appeared to some Jews in his best suit and in a loud booming voice, declared the Israelis should have that land. Or, did some sneaky Jew use the invisible boogie man in the sky to claim something that wasn't his? Based on my experience of life on earth, God tends to keep a remarkably low profile. He certainly doesn't hand out land.

Thork, you are a joke. To refer back to a question asked earlier. I tell you what. Non-Jews can use every single thing that Jews have invented in the history of the world except one thing. The Old Testament. Try to have your civilisation without the Old Testament. Try to have Jesus. Try to have Christianity. Try to have anything in your existence that matters a damn.
Try replying to my post without electricity, computers or the internet. And newsflash. you don't need Jesus to build a nation. Japan managed nicely.

The fact is your society is indebted to the Jew for everything you hold dear. Without us, you would not exist. We would exist without you. We would be different, yes. BUT WE WOULD EXIST. You would not exist. So the next time you start whining about the Jews, just think: Jesus was a Jew. And if you are an atheist, guess what: you live in a Christian society that has given you the right to be an atheist. If you lived in any Muslim state you'd have been executed for insulting Islam.
Back to Jesus. Jesus was a terrorist who created uprisings against the Roman empire. An empire that gave Britain roads, trade, currency, the written word and a bunch of useful things. The Jews, not so much.

Call Israel a rogue state all you want. The fact is that Arabs living there would rather do so than live in any other country in the Middle East. Ask them, and they will tell you. Israel is by no means perfect. But it is by far the only democratic country in the Middle East.
The whole of the middle east is a crap whole. Angry arabs with their personal 2-cent gods, every one of them, all interpreting their divine instructions and fighting over the sand and the rocks whilst decent folks in Europe and the US build nations, economies, civilisations. It is no coincidence that the developed world is made from the homelands of white people. The Jewish just latch on like leeches, sniffing out money with their big greedy Jewish noses. 

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."
Remind me of the last Jew to win a major athletic sporting event. there is a reason they are weaker than most and have diseases that specifically target them such as Tay-sachs and Crohn's disease, etc (http://judaism.about.com/od/health/Health_Jewish_Diseases.htm).

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1250426/pg1
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:32:36 PM
Correction: Jews make up .02% of the population of the world. They have obtained 22% of Nobel prizes. Christians are 33.2% of the population of the world, and have obtained 65.4% of the prizes. Muslims make up 23% of the world's population and have obtained 1% of the prizes. I stand corrected on my claim. Per capita their population, they come in first. But per outright numbers, they are second.

Since Judaism and Christianity both were Hellenised, You can't have straight Hellenic philosophy, or straight Judaism, or straight Christianity. The Chinese still thought the world was flat until the 18th Century. The Muslims refused to use the printing press until the late 19th century. So...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 07:33:53 PM
The Chinese still thought the world was flat until the 18th Century.
Remember where you are. We are all likely to know that this is bollocks.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:34:41 PM
Incidentally, Thork, I don't believe in Jesus. I simply pointed out that those of you who do wouldn't have him without us.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 07:36:21 PM
Incidentally, Thork, I don't believe in Jesus. I simply pointed out that those of you who do wouldn't have him without us.
Yes, thanks. A real gift. ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 07:37:17 PM
Incidentally, Thork, I don't believe in Jesus. I simply pointed out that those of you who do wouldn't have him without us.

Nearly all of the posters here are atheists or deists. This point isn't going to carry much weight.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 07:38:26 PM
Well, its been fun. I have things I must do now. We'll chat again later, I am sure. But Christian societies gave atheists and deists permission to be such and live. Muslim ones would have you all executed for insulting religion.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 07:42:09 PM
Thank you for giving us your permission to live, Christian societies. We are forever indebted to you.


Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

The most pretentious rendering of "my dad could beat up your dad" ever.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 21, 2014, 08:03:57 PM

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

You mean the same temple that archaeologically may not exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 21, 2014, 08:24:08 PM
Back on topic, it seems that even Saudi Arabia doesn't like ISIS.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/top-saudi-cleric-joins-muslim-leaders-in-condemning-isis-terrorists-says-they-are-destroying-human-civilization-125113/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 21, 2014, 08:27:44 PM
Thank you for giving us your permission to live, Christian societies. We are forever indebted to you.

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

The most pretentious rendering of "my dad could beat up your dad" ever.
Thank you for giving us your permission to live, Christian societies. We are forever indebted to you.

Again, Thork, you have Jews to thank for your very existence. Remember, to quote Disraeli, "I am a Jew. And while your ancestors were savages on some little known island in the north of Europe, mine were priests in the Temple of Solomon."

The most pretentious rendering of "my dad could beat up your dad" ever.

Why'd you attribute the quote to me broseph?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 21, 2014, 08:55:30 PM
My mistake.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 21, 2014, 09:17:39 PM
Yaakov is literally Hitler
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 10:05:20 PM
Well, so far, the Bible has proven itself when archaeology has moved far enough to do so, so I am sure that Solomon's Temple will be no exception. And that aside, the fact is, there was a temple, the Second, reconstructed and beautified by Herod (who was admittedly an asshole), the Western Wall of which remains. Even this late Temple predates any Muslim claim to the site.  And the only reason archaeology hasn't done work at the site is because of the Muslims. What really needs to be done is to eliminate the Dome of the Rock, preferably by destroying it piece by piece (I would recommend blowing it up, but that would damage the site itself, which we do not want). Then the site can be thoroughly examined for proof of Solomon's Temple.

As for Saudi Arabia, I applaud them. At least they have some sense of decency.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 21, 2014, 10:37:45 PM
What the fuck happened to my thread. This isn't a topic for anti muslim trolling, it's here to discuss ISIS and developments regarding them. Take your muslim hate routine elsewhere.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 21, 2014, 10:40:47 PM
Back on topic, it seems that even Saudi Arabia doesn't like ISIS.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/top-saudi-cleric-joins-muslim-leaders-in-condemning-isis-terrorists-says-they-are-destroying-human-civilization-125113/
When even a conservative theocracy of your own religion is calling you crazy, there's something very wrong. Many muslim leaders in western nations have been doing the same.

Initial rumors also pointed to Saudi Arabia as suppliers of ISIS, so this is especially interesting.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
It would be hard to be literally Hitler unless he had come back from the dead in some interesting way. And if he had, I doubt he would have done so as a Jew unless he were unusually masochistic. And no, I am not in favour of genocide. I am merely in favour of keeping Muslims, particularly Arabs, in their own part of the world, where they can be as savage as they wish without affecting the rest of the world adversely.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 21, 2014, 11:14:39 PM
I am merely in favour of keeping Muslims, particularly Arabs, in their own part of the world, where they can be as savage as they wish without affecting the rest of the world adversely.
You do realize that's just the kind of attitude that makes people hate you, don't you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 21, 2014, 11:33:06 PM
I am pragmatic. I don't care if I am hated for it. I have heard the same sentiment coming from many Christians.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 11:46:53 PM
The flaw in your argument is that you would essentially surround Israel with a billion strong horde of disgruntled Muslims.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 22, 2014, 12:28:27 AM
The flaw in your argument is that you would essentially surround Israel with a billion strong horde of disgruntled Muslims.

Which would be wonderful. Death to Israel.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 22, 2014, 12:34:07 AM
It would be hard to be literally Hitler unless he had come back from the dead in some interesting way. And if he had, I doubt he would have done so as a Jew unless he were unusually masochistic. And no, I am not in favour of genocide. I am merely in favour of keeping Muslims, particularly Arabs, in their own part of the world, where they can be as savage as they wish without affecting the rest of the world adversely.

If you want to start a thread about hating muslims, then go and do it. This thread is about ISIS and the geopolitics surrounding them.

I personally have a strong dislike for your rubbish because on top of being ignorant and irrelevant, it's extremely offensive. So take it elsewhere.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 12:41:44 AM
QUOTE: "The flaw in your argument is that you would essentially surround Israel with a billion strong horde of disgruntled Muslims."

And this would be different in form then the situation obtaining now in precisely what way? I mean, Israel is surrounded by 22 Arab nations, all of which are Muslim majority except for one, Lebanon, which is multi-confessional, and, as events in that country have proven since 1975, is a disaster due to its very multi-confessionalism.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
So far, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has a successful democratic state and is also successfully multi-confessional. Absolute freedom of relgion is guaranteed within the State. Arab citizens are not required to serve in the IDF, although they may if they wish, and some do. The Druze are, by their own community's request, subject to the draft, even though they are Arabs. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim holy sites are all protected by the State. In fact, Temple Mount is controlled by the Muslim Waqf.

Fundamentally, what it comes down to is a very simple matter. You can hate me, and hate Israel, all you want. But Israel is the lone outpost of civilisation in that part of the world, surrounded by people that live in the Seventh Century. If that is what you want, you've got plenty of countries to choose from. Leave Israel alone.

I won't dispute that Israel is a Jewish State. It was intended to be such. The challenge to being both a Jewish State AND a democratic State that respects the rights of its citizens of all confessions has been at the top of Israel's agenda since the founding of the State. It must be noted that the so-called "Palestinians" are not citizens, and therefore do not qualify as part of this discussion. We are talking about Arab citizens of Israel within the Green Line.

As far as ISIS goes, the fundamental fact is that if they are permitted to go any further than they have gone, they will change the Middle East fundamentally. They MUST be destroyed. Every single member of ISIS, and every follower thereof must be killed, along with Boko Haram, and any other group that has similar ideals. Their continued existence on Earth is a threat to the continued existence of the human race. Even assuming we allow that Islam has a moderate wing (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), groups such as this MUST be destroyed completely.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 22, 2014, 01:52:43 AM
My statement was that Israel's creation in the 1940s is what caused such resentment against the west and what allows such radical groups to rise.

One does not create a bonfire without a lot of burnable material.  The ISIS is a bonfire of hate and the west has given them plenty of fuel.  Israel was the start.


Quote
As far as ISIS goes, the fundamental fact is that if they are permitted to go any further than they have gone, they will change the Middle East fundamentally. They MUST be destroyed. Every single member of ISIS, and every follower thereof must be killed, along with Boko Haram, and any other group that has similar ideals. Their continued existence on Earth is a threat to the continued existence of the human race. Even assuming we allow that Islam has a moderate wing (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), groups such as this MUST be destroyed completely.
This is why I don't take your claim of having a major in history seriously.  Completely destroying a group is very hard.  Nearly impossible really.  Sure you can smash a country and wipe out a race, but an idea, a belief, is much harder to kill.

Jewish history is full of times when being Jewish was forbidden or punished.  The Egyptians, according to your own holy book (not really scholars) tried to cull jews but failed.  The Romans tried to ban, tax, and exile them.  The Nazi's tried to wipe them out.  They all failed.
Druids: Romans tried to wipe them out.  Didn't work.
Catholics vs Protestants: Nope.
Hell, America has still failed to wipe out all the Indians.

And what happened?  The group usually got more power.  Especially the Jews and Protestants. 

Oh and let's not forget the Crusades tried wiping out or converting Muslims.  Didn't work out so well either.


So yeah, let's try to wipe out ISIS.  We'll just have them back in a generation, stronger than ever.  American still can't get rid of the damn confederates and it's been over 100 years!


I personally think the US should cut off all contact with Israel.  No trade, no supplies, no military support, nothing.  I can guarantee you, Israel would not survive a decade(I am aware of their defense industry but you can't make a gun without metal and you can't fly a jet without fuel) and within 50 years of no interference from the West(and a massive drop in oil needs), peace in the Middle East would be had.



Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 01:58:48 AM
On behalf of Turkey, may I say you are a twat Yaakov.

As a student if history, aren't you supposed to learn from it?  Can you tell me how effective mass deportation and segregation was in the past?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:37:39 AM
If you suggest that the creation of one tiny state of Jews in the middle of 22 Arab states is enough to radicalise the entire Muslim world, then I am right, these people are insane, and should not be allowed to mix with normal humans.

And yes, you are absolutely right. The world has had to deal with Muslims over and over and over again. The Crusades, 1492, now, and the future. You can't destroy them. I understand that. You can doubt my degree all you want. I am not stupid enough to give you my name and place of graduation, as I don't choose to be identifiable on the 'Net.

Since you CAN'T destroy them, all you can do is subdue them, and KEEP subduing them.They must be reminded, every hundred years or so, that they are to be obedient, and silent. In other words, they are to STFU and stay the f--k out of the way except when called upon. If the situation were reversed, that is EXACTLY what they would do to us, according to their own Qur'an which requires that Jews and Christians become Muslims, pay a special tax to remain Jews or Christians, or die by the sword. At least I am not imposing conversion or taxes or death on them. I am merely proposing that they stay in their own part of the world where they can be savages all they want to each other.

Ha. She committed adultery? (Even though she was really raped, but couldn't produce four witnesses to say that). Cut her head off! If that is how they wish to behave, let them. Just don't let them do it in any civilised part of the world.

As for the Egyptians, and the Hebrew sojourn there, there is proof that there was an Exodus of Hebrews from Egypt, albeit not of 2 million persons. There were indeed Hebrew slaves in Egypt that left, along with non-Hebrews, and Canaan was settled by Hebrews in a combination of peaceful settlement and military action. This is proven and can be read about in history books. You can argue about that all you wish, but don't bother to do it with me. History is history, in spite of your trying to make it otherwise.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:41:59 AM
As far as not helping Israel, you are entitled to your opinion. But, they are our only true ally in the Middle East. Last time I checked, the US didn't fuck over friends. Israel is by NO means perfect, and I never said it was. Neither is the USA. But lets face it. It is the only country over there that lives in the 21st Century. Everyone else  (except MAYBE the UAE) lives in the Seventh Century. Maybe those are the kind of savages you wish to deal with. But most people disagree with you, thank God. And thank God further that you will never be in a position of power to dictate policy.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 22, 2014, 02:44:00 AM


As far as ISIS goes, the fundamental fact is that if they are permitted to go any further than they have gone, they will change the Middle East fundamentally. They MUST be destroyed. Every single member of ISIS, and every follower thereof must be killed, along with Boko Haram, and any other group that has similar ideals. Their continued existence on Earth is a threat to the continued existence of the human race. Even assuming we allow that Islam has a moderate wing (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), groups such as this MUST be destroyed completely.

This is the most stupid opinion I have seen on the ISIS issue. You cannot wipe out a religious fundamentalist group. Their existence is not a threat to anyone except the Kurds, southern Iraqi's, and some Syrians. They're a bunch of untrained militia with shitty equipment, entirely incapable of fighting a modern force.

This is not relevant, but many Muslims are peaceful, normal human beings. I know many myself. To suggest ISIS is somehow indicative of typical Muslims is extremely ignorant.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:49:29 AM
I studied Islam myself, and attended a mosque for two years. Didn't tell them I was a Jew, of course. Read the Qur'an three times. Can you deny that it says that all Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians under Muslim rule are to become Muslim, pay the Jizya tax, or be killed? And can you find me a single Muslim who is a devout Muslim who denies the truth of this statement, any more than he denies the truth of the rest of the Qur'an? Any Muslim who denies the truth of that statement in the Qur'an most likely denies the entire book, or is on the way toward that position.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:54:14 AM
Well, its been fun. But I have work to do on my Doctoral dissertation, actually. So I must bid you all fond adieu. I'll come back tomorrow, I am sure. Until then, enjoy fawning over your multi-cultural bullshit. You would have us all doing that crap until we were all fed to Islam's lions, which is what is going to happen, if we are not all careful.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 22, 2014, 03:00:28 AM
If you suggest that the creation of one tiny state of Jews in the middle of 22 Arab states is enough to radicalise the entire Muslim world, then I am right, these people are insane, and should not be allowed to mix with normal humans.
Are you suggesting that taking land from other people won't piss them off?  That constantly pressing your influence won't anger them?
Also, the entire middle east isn't radicalized, just small groups.  What you SHOULD be asking is this: Why did Israel's creation start this?  What changed?  Is it that they can't handle "civilization" (like all those countries bordering the edge) or could it be that Israel isn't a good neighbor?  Considering history, I'd be willing to bet the latter.  But let's test that theory.  Let's look at the Middle East history when Israel stopped existing until it started to exist again and plot the radical groups and their actions.  Since you're a history major, please give me a summary as you are the best for this task.

Quote
And yes, you are absolutely right. The world has had to deal with Muslims over and over and over again. The Crusades, 1492, now, and the future. You can't destroy them. I understand that. You can doubt my degree all you want. I am not stupid enough to give you my name and place of graduation, as I don't choose to be identifiable on the 'Net.

Since you CAN'T destroy them, all you can do is subdue them, and KEEP subduing them.They must be reminded, every hundred years or so, that they are to be obedient, and silent. In other words, they are to STFU and stay the f--k out of the way except when called upon. If the situation were reversed, that is EXACTLY what they would do to us, according to their own Qur'an which requires that Jews and Christians become Muslims, pay a special tax to remain Jews or Christians, or die by the sword. At least I am not imposing conversion or taxes or death on them. I am merely proposing that they stay in their own part of the world where they can be savages all they want to each other.
Hold on a second... are you, the History Major, telling me (again) that oppressing a group of people doesn't have bad results?  My God... you're not a Jew.  Your not a Jew at all.  Seriously, how could you possibly forget the 10 plagues of Egypt?  You are an insult to honest Jews. 


Quote
As for the Egyptians, and the Hebrew sojourn there, there is proof that there was an Exodus of Hebrews from Egypt, albeit not of 2 million persons. There were indeed Hebrew slaves in Egypt that left, along with non-Hebrews, and Canaan was settled by Hebrews in a combination of peaceful settlement and military action. This is proven and can be read about in history books. You can argue about that all you wish, but don't bother to do it with me. History is history, in spite of your trying to make it otherwise.
Citation needed.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 22, 2014, 03:11:49 AM
Nobody cares what you're doing when you're offline.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 22, 2014, 03:24:59 AM
Reminds me of sokarul taking frequent breaks from pwning all of you to drink at the bar with his friends, but not before informing you of his plans.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 22, 2014, 03:33:28 AM
As far as not helping Israel, you are entitled to your opinion. But, they are our only true ally in the Middle East. Last time I checked, the US didn't fuck over friends.
You haven't studied American history, have you? 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 22, 2014, 03:51:41 AM
As far as not helping Israel, you are entitled to your opinion. But, they are our only true ally in the Middle East. Last time I checked, the US didn't fuck over friends.
You haven't studied American history, have you? 

lol france

Anyway, as far as news that actually matters is concerned, Obama just announced that we tried to save that reporter, but had bad intelligence as to where he was being kept, and has vowed justice. The article I read didn't clarify what 'justice' will entail, but I'd imagine we can expect further escalation of the conflict from 'Merica.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 07:18:22 AM
Last time I checked, the US didn't fuck over friends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 22, 2014, 09:57:58 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
They aren't Brits. They are Arabs. I could get given a racehorse passport to run in the 15:25 at Cheltenham, but that doesn't make me a horse. They aren't British. They merely have a permit to live here regardless of how much the media and politicians want me to believe they are the same as me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 22, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
They aren't Brits. They are Arabs. I could get given a racehorse passport to run in the 15:25 at Cheltenham, but that doesn't make me a horse. They aren't British. They merely have a permit to live here regardless of how much the media and politicians want me to believe they are the same as me.

We're in the same situation. We've had Australian born and raised muslims going to fight for ISIS and in Syria. They're very much British, just as our citizens were Australian. They're just tremendous morons.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 22, 2014, 10:36:08 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
Doesn't mean anything.  An army needs soldiers though did the story say if they succeeded?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 10:39:25 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
They aren't Brits. They are Arabs. I could get given a racehorse passport to run in the 15:25 at Cheltenham, but that doesn't make me a horse. They aren't British. They merely have a permit to live here regardless of how much the media and politicians want me to believe they are the same as me.

We're in the same situation. We've had Australian born and raised muslims going to fight for ISIS and in Syria. They're very much British, just as our citizens were Australian. They're just tremendous morons.
Nope. They are Arabs.

Quote from: Duke of Wellington
just because one was born in a stable doesn't make one a horse
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 22, 2014, 10:45:20 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
They aren't Brits. They are Arabs. I could get given a racehorse passport to run in the 15:25 at Cheltenham, but that doesn't make me a horse. They aren't British. They merely have a permit to live here regardless of how much the media and politicians want me to believe they are the same as me.

We're in the same situation. We've had Australian born and raised muslims going to fight for ISIS and in Syria. They're very much British, just as our citizens were Australian. They're just tremendous morons.
Nope. They are Arabs.

Quote from: Duke of Wellington
just because one was born in a stable doesn't make one a horse

The only time I wouldn't consider them British/Australian is when they didn't have full citizenship, and were on a visa or some such before leaving to fight. In which case, I don't give a shit if they leave. They have no chance of returning then.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 22, 2014, 11:09:22 AM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.
Doesn't mean anything.  An army needs soldiers though did the story say if they succeeded?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2684714/I-tell-I-m-going-jihad-Lol-I-ll-arrested-What-British-terrorist-Birmingham-told-childhood-friend-travelled-Syria-join-rebel-fighters.html

Fought for 8 months in Syria, arrested at Heathrow when they returned.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 12:11:16 PM
Ok, good point. America has been known to fuck over buddies. *GRIN* Can't deny that. In more recent years, we've done a pretty good job of standing by friends, even when they sometimes didn't deserve it. Hence the creation of this whole mess in the first place (meaning the radicalisation of the Mujahadeen).

QUOTE: "Let's look at the Middle East history when Israel stopped existing until it started to exist again and plot the radical groups and their actions."

You are asking for an impossible task. Israel last existed in 70 CE. Last I checked, there were no terrorists around them in 70 CE.

As for citations re: the truth of the Exodus, I was just reading about it recently, but I don't have said source with me. If that were the topic of our conversation, I would be more worried about providing it, but it is not. The difference between Jews and the Ten Plagues of Egypt and Muslims being told to STFU until being called upon is that we are actually members of the civilised world. They live, by choice I might add, in the Seventh Century, and therefore, should have no say in how the world conducts itself.

Incidentally, all this crap about taking their land is just that, crap. Jews in the Ottoman period migrating to "Palestine" generally bought land directly from absentee Turkish landlords, often at prices that were 2 or even 3 times what the market price should have  been. The felahin, the Arab workers of the land, could have bought those lands, and chose not to.

Furthermore, when Jews bought the land, it was with the understanding that the rights of the felahin currently living there would not be abridged. The fact that 750,000 Arabs fled Israel at the demand of Arab governments who then attacked Israel (after kicking out approximately the same number of Jews from their own lands) is hardly Israel's fault. She absorbed the 750,000 Jews that came from the Arab countries. Why the Arabs couldn't do the same with the "Palestinians" is beyond me.

Now they have a couple million of them. Israel clearly doesn't want them. What is obvious to me, and anyone who takes the time to look, is that NO ONE, not even other Arabs, wants them. They are classified as the filth of the Earth even by other Arabs. So there they sit. Egypt gave up the Gaza, Jordan gave up the West Bank. According to International Law, the citizens of each country SHOULD have been allowed to emigrate back into each country. They were not. Therefore, they became stateless. They did not suddenly create a new nationality.

Argue with me all you want. I don't much care what you have to say. The fact is, guess what? Israel is here to stay. You can bitch about it all you like, but its not going anywhere. WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!!!

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 22, 2014, 01:27:46 PM
Thork, is John Walker Lindh an Arab?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 01:38:46 PM
Ok, good point. America has been known to fuck over buddies. *GRIN* Can't deny that. In more recent years, we've done a pretty good job of standing by friends, even when they sometimes didn't deserve it. Hence the creation of this whole mess in the first place (meaning the radicalisation of the Mujahadeen).

QUOTE: "Let's look at the Middle East history when Israel stopped existing until it started to exist again and plot the radical groups and their actions."

You are asking for an impossible task. Israel last existed in 70 CE. Last I checked, there were no terrorists around them in 70 CE.

As for citations re: the truth of the Exodus, I was just reading about it recently, but I don't have said source with me. If that were the topic of our conversation, I would be more worried about providing it, but it is not. The difference between Jews and the Ten Plagues of Egypt and Muslims being told to STFU until being called upon is that we are actually members of the civilised world. They live, by choice I might add, in the Seventh Century, and therefore, should have no say in how the world conducts itself.

Incidentally, all this crap about taking their land is just that, crap. Jews in the Ottoman period migrating to "Palestine" generally bought land directly from absentee Turkish landlords, often at prices that were 2 or even 3 times what the market price should have  been. The felahin, the Arab workers of the land, could have bought those lands, and chose not to.

Furthermore, when Jews bought the land, it was with the understanding that the rights of the felahin currently living there would not be abridged. The fact that 750,000 Arabs fled Israel at the demand of Arab governments who then attacked Israel (after kicking out approximately the same number of Jews from their own lands) is hardly Israel's fault. She absorbed the 750,000 Jews that came from the Arab countries. Why the Arabs couldn't do the same with the "Palestinians" is beyond me.

Now they have a couple million of them. Israel clearly doesn't want them. What is obvious to me, and anyone who takes the time to look, is that NO ONE, not even other Arabs, wants them. They are classified as the filth of the Earth even by other Arabs. So there they sit. Egypt gave up the Gaza, Jordan gave up the West Bank. According to International Law, the citizens of each country SHOULD have been allowed to emigrate back into each country. They were not. Therefore, they became stateless. They did not suddenly create a new nationality.

Argue with me all you want. I don't much care what you have to say. The fact is, guess what? Israel is here to stay. You can bitch about it all you like, but its not going anywhere. WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!!!



If you dont want to argue can you keep your mouth shut please?  Obviously everyone here thinks your ideas are idiotic and morally repugnant, so go elsewhere with your intolerant zionist shit. 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 01:40:39 PM
Thork, is John Walker Lindh an Arab?
No, he's an idiot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 01:48:02 PM
Ooh, I'm hurt. "Intolerant Zionist shit". Except that even the UN (not that they are worth a shit, but even they are occasionally right) has withdrawn their statement that Zionism is racist. Grow up and act like an adult. You sound like a Third Grader on the playground. Shall I play my little violin a bit louder for you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 01:49:01 PM
Ooh, I'm hurt. "Intolerant Zionist shit". Except that even the UN (not that they are worth a shit, but even they are occasionally right) has withdrawn their statement that Zionism is racist. Grow up and act like an adult. You sound like a Third Grader on the playground. Shall I play my little violin a bit louder for you?

No seriously now.  I thought you did not want to argue. 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:03:47 PM
QUOTE: "Incidentally, all this crap about taking their land is just that, crap. Jews in the Ottoman period migrating to "Palestine" generally bought land directly from absentee Turkish landlords, often at prices that were 2 or even 3 times what the market price should have  been. The felahin, the Arab workers of the land, could have bought those lands, and chose not to.

Furthermore, when Jews bought the land, it was with the understanding that the rights of the felahin currently living there would not be abridged. The fact that 750,000 Arabs fled Israel at the demand of Arab governments who then attacked Israel (after kicking out approximately the same number of Jews from their own lands) is hardly Israel's fault. She absorbed the 750,000 Jews that came from the Arab countries. Why the Arabs couldn't do the same with the "Palestinians" is beyond me.

Now they have a couple million of them. Israel clearly doesn't want them. What is obvious to me, and anyone who takes the time to look, is that NO ONE, not even other Arabs, wants them. They are classified as the filth of the Earth even by other Arabs. So there they sit. Egypt gave up the Gaza, Jordan gave up the West Bank. According to International Law, the citizens of each country SHOULD have been allowed to emigrate back into each country. They were not. Therefore, they became stateless. They did not suddenly create a new nationality.

Argue with me all you want. I don't much care what you have to say. The fact is, guess what? Israel is here to stay. You can bitch about it all you like, but its not going anywhere. WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!!!"


You want to argue, go ahead. Argue with that. Give me a point by point refutation of each point made in that portion of my post. Knock yourself out. Enjoy.

Fundamentally, you can't argue with me, because even if you were to successfully provide an argument against the above (which I don't think you can do, but feel free to try), I still have the Bible to go back to, that promises the Jewish People Eretz Israel as the Promised Land from God. You may reject that. You may reject belief in God. Feel free to do that. But there are enough Jews who believe in God and in that promise to keep fighting for the Land of Israel until Greater Israel belongs to us.

Human justification at that point no longer matters. The UN doesn't matter. Sure, we'll play the game, just as every other nation does, including the USA, and Britain. But lets face it. The UN is a joke. You know it. I know it. Israel will get what it wants despite the UN, not because of it.

Ultimately, "Palestinians" will have a choice. Leave the Land, or be subject to the punishment of Amalek. They will eventually leave, because they are not stupid. Even I know that. Although this matter will probably not be resolved until the coming of Messiah.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 02:16:05 PM
Although this matter will probably not be resolved until the coming of Messiah.

So it will never be resolved.  Too bad.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:26:52 PM
Well, that is certainly one way of looking at the matter!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 02:27:08 PM
Although this matter will probably not be resolved until the coming of Messiah.

So it will never be resolved.  Too bad.
I'm amazed that a race that habitually does well in IQ testing, has such backward ideas.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 02:30:12 PM
And I am amazed that somebody who claims to be intelligent still calls Jews a race. Since there are Jews from lightest white to darkest black and everything in between from the Jews of China and the Jews of India... but then, you haven't shown much brilliance in this thread, so...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 02:42:53 PM
To find a stupid individual is simple, but to be stupid as a group takes a special kind of dysfunction.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 02:54:24 PM
And I am amazed that somebody who claims to be intelligent still calls Jews a race. Since there are Jews from lightest white to darkest black and everything in between from the Jews of China and the Jews of India... but then, you haven't shown much brilliance in this thread, so...
Yeah, crack on. ::)

http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 03:05:08 PM
Well, I am inclined to agree, which is why I have no respect for the "Palestinians". They truly have been as stupid as it is possible to be for a group. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The latest was 2001 when Ehud Barak offered them 96% of what they wanted, including East Jerusalem as their capital. Instead of taking the deal, Arafat started the Second Intifada. Idiot. As far back as the 1940s, when British Mandate Palestine (today's Jordan, Israel, Gaza, the West Bank) was offered to be divided in half between Arab and Jew, the Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Jordan was given to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this. What is today Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank was proposed to be divided in half with Jerusalem as an international city. The Jews said yes. The Arabs said no.

Finally, Israel was declared in the territory then held by Jews. It was attacked by Arab armies who lost the war. Idiots. THAT is what gave birth to the Israeli-"Palestinian" problem. You had 750,000 Arabs leave their homes, most at the order of Arab governments. Israel did not want them back, and had to find homes for about the same number of Jews coming from Arab countries at the same time. The Arabs could have accepted the ones that were newly homeless, since most of them were that way at the request of Arab governments. They chose not to. NOT ISRAEL'S PROBLEM.

Those Arabs ended up mostly in Gaza, run by Egypt, and the West Bank, run by Jordan, thus making them citizens of those countries. The fact that those countries later gave up those territories does not change that according to international law. Since neither nation did its duty by those people, they became stateless. Again, NOT ISRAEL'S PROBLEM.

Israel has, time and again, offered to do right by the "Palestinians". It is their own leaders who fuck them over, not Israel. While Hamas's leader sits in Qatar at Five Star Hotels, his people suffer in a lop-sided war. I wonder why he never risks his ass? Too much of a sissy, perhaps?

Incidentally, Jews are NOT a race. They are an ethnic group in the way that Latinos are an ethnic group, even though they can come from all the major races. Idiot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 03:10:25 PM
I never disputed that Jews were an ethnic group. Denying that would be stupid. Of course we are. But that is different than being part of a race. Latinos are an ethic group. They also are not a racial group.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 22, 2014, 03:22:20 PM
I'm just waiting for yaakov to start posting poetry. Maybe we should get Daniel to give him access to FEB on the old forum?

There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.

Agreed. It's not really clear what their motivations are, but religion is not one of them. It's just an excuse.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 03:24:44 PM
I never disputed that Jews were an ethnic group. Denying that would be stupid. Of course we are. But that is different than being part of a race. Latinos are an ethic group. They also are not a racial group.
What did my link just say?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 22, 2014, 03:27:53 PM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.


Read the thread faggot

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation (http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation)


Bunch of thugs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 03:42:17 PM
Well, I am inclined to agree, which is why I have no respect for the "Palestinians". They truly have been as stupid as it is possible to be for a group. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The latest was 2001 when Ehud Barak offered them 96% of what they wanted, including East Jerusalem as their capital. Instead of taking the deal, Arafat started the Second Intifada. Idiot. As far back as the 1940s, when British Mandate Palestine (today's Jordan, Israel, Gaza, the West Bank) was offered to be divided in half between Arab and Jew, the Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Jordan was given to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this. What is today Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank was proposed to be divided in half with Jerusalem as an international city. The Jews said yes. The Arabs said no.

Finally, Israel was declared in the territory then held by Jews. It was attacked by Arab armies who lost the war. Idiots. THAT is what gave birth to the Israeli-"Palestinian" problem. You had 750,000 Arabs leave their homes, most at the order of Arab governments. Israel did not want them back, and had to find homes for about the same number of Jews coming from Arab countries at the same time. The Arabs could have accepted the ones that were newly homeless, since most of them were that way at the request of Arab governments. They chose not to. NOT ISRAEL'S PROBLEM.

Those Arabs ended up mostly in Gaza, run by Egypt, and the West Bank, run by Jordan, thus making them citizens of those countries. The fact that those countries later gave up those territories does not change that according to international law. Since neither nation did its duty by those people, they became stateless. Again, NOT ISRAEL'S PROBLEM.

Israel has, time and again, offered to do right by the "Palestinians". It is their own leaders who fuck them over, not Israel. While Hamas's leader sits in Qatar at Five Star Hotels, his people suffer in a lop-sided war. I wonder why he never risks his ass? Too much of a sissy, perhaps?

Incidentally, Jews are NOT a race. They are an ethnic group in the way that Latinos are an ethnic group, even though they can come from all the major races. Idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War

Says here Israel started the Six-Day war with a surprise attack.  I really thought you studied history.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 03:46:01 PM
Thork, I didn't bother to read the whole thing. It wasn't worth doing so, given its length. All I am saying is that you called us a race in one of your posts, and in so doing, you are wrong. Insofar as we are an ethnic group, I shan't deny that. Actually, "ethnoreligious group" would be more accurate.

"From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
But as the riper should by time decease,
His tender heir might bear his memory:
But thou, contracted to thine own bright eyes,
Feed'st thy light'st flame with self-substantial fuel,
Making a famine where abundance lies,
Thyself thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel,
Thou that art  now the world's fresh ornament,
And only herald to the gaudy spring,
Within thine own bud buriest thy content
And, tender churl, makest wast in niggarding.
Pity the world, or else this glutton be,
To east the world's due, by the grave and thee.

Sonnet 1, Shakespeare.

YOU ASKED FOR IT!

Of course they started the Six Day War. And wouldn't you, when several nations positioned armies around you in attack positions? If Canada and Mexico both positioned their armies to attack the United States at the same time and were known to hate the USA as much as Arabs hate Israel, would the US not pre-empt such an attack with an attack of its own? Use your fucking brains.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 03:47:07 PM
Thork, I didn't bother to read the whole thing. It wasn't worth doing so, given its length.
Did you at least read the title?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 22, 2014, 03:49:15 PM
There was a news story yesterday about a couple of Brits who'd travelled to Syria to join ISIS. Before they left they'd bought Islam for Dummies and the Quran for Dummies. It turns out that ISIS recruits might not necessarily be the hardline fundamentalists we assume they are.


Read the thread faggot

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation (http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation)


Bunch of thugs.

I did wonder where I'd originally read that story...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 03:52:21 PM
You are literally the worst historian ever: 

(Israel) was attacked by Arab armies who lost the war.

Of course (Israel) started the Six Day War.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 22, 2014, 03:53:52 PM
I think he was referring to an earlier war.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2014, 03:58:00 PM
Israel was the aggressor in every war involving nations outside their borders prior to that as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on August 22, 2014, 04:04:59 PM
Fundamentally, you can't argue with me, because even if you were to successfully provide an argument against the above (which I don't think you can do, but feel free to try), I still have the Bible to go back to, that promises the Jewish People Eretz Israel as the Promised Land from God. You may reject that. You may reject belief in God. Feel free to do that. But there are enough Jews who believe in God and in that promise to keep fighting for the Land of Israel until Greater Israel belongs to us.

God should have studied harder in Contracts.  Doesn't he know about the Rule Against Perpetuities?

If that's the land God promised you, then God thinks you're as much of a cunt as the rest of us do.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 04:08:12 PM
Yes. And I suppose it depends on how you define "race". Anthropologically, "race" has always meant broadly the Black, White, Yellow, or Red races. (Negro, Caucasian, Asian, Native American). Ultimately, such terms have no meaning. They have proven that race is literally only skin deep. The Homo sapiens sapiens is from Ethiopia, ultimately. Caucasians actually have more admixture of Neandertal in them than African persons do. But the fact that all persons called Homo sapiens sapiens can interbreed with each other indicates that we are of the same species and subspecies. Therefore any physical difference is irrelevant. In fact, it is likely that Neandertal was actually Homo sapiens neandertalis, therefore able to interbreed with us.

Ultimately, if you use the useless term of "race", though, Jews are not one. Anthropologically, we come from all the races (except possibly the Red). But you are right. We do share DNA with each other. Jews share it with other Jews, and Levites within the Jewish community share it with other Levites, and Cohanim share it with other Cohanim. We have always known this. Anybody with certain last names is known to us as being part of the Cohanim and is given certain honours in the synagogue, as is also the case with persons who have last names indicating that they are Levites. Your article just tells me shite that Jews have known for 4500 years, thank you very much.

When I referred to Israel being attacked by Arab armies who lost the war, I meant the war of '48. The war of '67 was indeed started by Israel in the sense that they attacked first, but they were completely surrounded by Arab nations whose armies were poised to attack them. They pre-empted said attack. In '73, they were attacked in a thoroughly dishonourable way on Yom Kippur, while the Muslims themselves were celebrating Ramadan (so much for them saying that you can't fight during Ramadan, the lying bastards that they are).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 22, 2014, 04:10:08 PM
Israel is terrible. Just terrible.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 04:11:23 PM
But you are right.

Your article just tells me shite that Jews have known for 4500 years, thank you very much.
Then why did you say I was wrong and repeatedly call me an idiot?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 04:12:24 PM
I told you you are an idiot because you call us a race. You are correct insofar as you call us an ethnic group.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 04:16:49 PM
I told you you are an idiot because you call us a race. You are correct insofar as you call us an ethnic group.
You are a cabbage.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
I'll be sure to keep that in mind. *GRIN* And you are pickled Rocky Mountain Oysters! JUST JOKING!

Seriously, all kidding around aside, I've enjoyed our little chat, but I've some work to get to. I shall be back later. I trust that all of you will be civilised in my absence. Chat with you all later. Don't do anything I wouldn't do.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 22, 2014, 04:26:43 PM
You really don't need to keep announcing your departure like that.  This is a message board, not a chatroom.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 22, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
But what if we need him, Saddam?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 22, 2014, 04:41:25 PM
Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

This isn't saying much. I'm getting the impression that straightup genocide is not included in the list of Things You Would Not Do.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 22, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
You are asking for an impossible task. Israel last existed in 70 CE. Last I checked, there were no terrorists around them in 70 CE.
False.  Romans would be considered terrorists against the Jews but also JEWS!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html

The great Revolt of 66 CE.  Lots of radical Jews that just slaughtered each other.  If I had to guess, I'd say they were acting no different than the ISIS, except the ISIS isn't burning food stocks.


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As for citations re: the truth of the Exodus, I was just reading about it recently, but I don't have said source with me.
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/virtualtalmud/2007/03/truth-of-exodus.html
The Truth of the Exodus by Rabbi Joshua Waxman (http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/virtualtalmud/author/jwaxman/)
It seems your citation contradicts your statement.

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The difference between Jews and the Ten Plagues of Egypt and Muslims being told to STFU until being called upon is that we are actually members of the civilized world. They live, by choice I might add, in the Seventh Century, and therefore, should have no say in how the world conducts itself.
Considering that computers, telephones, and electricity didn't exist int eh 7th century, I'm finding it difficult to see why you say this.  Or do you feel that the laws of the land are from the 7th century?  In which case I'd point to the arab nations with women being allowed to vote, the laws regarding advanced financial transactions, and the DIFC in the UAE.  Not to mention OPEC.

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Argue with me all you want. I don't much care what you have to say. The fact is, guess what? Israel is here to stay. You can bitch about it all you like, but its not going anywhere. WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!!!
I'm sure they said the same thing in 69CE.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 09:00:42 PM
As regards the truth of the Exodus, I don't HAVE a citation with me. Nor do I have time to find one now, since that isn't the topic of discussion, though I do know that I was reading about it just last week. I never claimed here to have said citation. Incidentally, the author of what I was reading was a Rabbi, and quoted Rabbi Waxman, and challenged what he had to say on the subject.

Re: The Great Revolt of 66 CE, point granted, except insofar as back then, wars were brutally fought and won or lost as the case may be, since the Geneva Conventions were not exactly invented. We expect better out of people today than we did in 66 CE.

So, Arabs don't live in the 7th Century because they have computers and women can vote? First off, I'd like to know how much the vote means in ANY Arab society. Since none of the nations there are rated democratic or even partially so except Israel, who cares if women can vote or not? Your point?

And no, I doubt they were saying similar things in 69 CE. Given that revolts are usually preceded by internal disturbances and great amounts of political intrigue, it is doubtful that all was peaceful. They were probably being unusually oppressed by Rome, and were likely heartily sick of it.

Since what I propose is not genocide, yes, that IS on the list of Things I Would Not Do. Don't be juvenile.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 22, 2014, 09:11:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East

Quote from: off of wikipedia
According to the "Democracy Index," a measure of the level of democracy in nations throughout the world published by the Freedom House and Economist, the Middle Eastern countries with the highest scores are Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait and Morocco. Countries that are occasionally classified as partly democratic are Egypt, Tunisia and Iraq. The remaining countries of the Middle East are categorized as authoritarian regimes, with the lowest scores held by Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 22, 2014, 10:02:32 PM
 QUOTE: "the Middle Eastern countries with the highest scores are Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait and Morocco."

Lebanon has a strictly confessional state whereby the President must belong to one faith, the Prime Minister another, The Vice President yet another, the Deputy Prime Minister yet another, and so-on, and so many slots in the legislative branch must be reserved for this faith or that. That result has been civil war or near civil war since 1975.

Turkey has been fairly democratic, but is now leaning toward Islamic fundamental crap under Erdogan, who is playing games with the Constitution of the country.

Kuwait is an Emirate. The Emir holds ultimate power, should he choose to exercise it. Morocco is a Kingdom. The King holds ultimate power, should he choose to exercise it.

And I'm not criticising either man. In fact, I happen to think the King of Morocco is a pretty decent fellow, but that doesn't change the fact that he could be absolute monarch if he so chose.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 22, 2014, 10:55:53 PM
As regards the truth of the Exodus, I don't HAVE a citation with me. Nor do I have time to find one now, since that isn't the topic of discussion, though I do know that I was reading about it just last week. I never claimed here to have said citation. Incidentally, the author of what I was reading was a Rabbi, and quoted Rabbi Waxman, and challenged what he had to say on the subject.
Two Rabbis can't be right.  One must be wrong.  And if we conclude that a Rabbi can be wrong, then we must also conclude that ANY Rabbi can be wrong.
Of course, he one Rabbi challenged what another said, it can't be as solidly factual as you seem to imply.
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We expect better out of people today than we did in 66 CE.
???   Why would you say that?  We still have wars.  We still have fights.  We still have murders.  We still have thefts.  We still have liars.  We still have leaders who oppress their people.  We still have tyrants.  What, exactly, do we have that's so different than the 7th century and why do we expect better?  Especially considering that we had good people back then too.

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So, Arabs don't live in the 7th Century because they have computers and women can vote? First off, I'd like to know how much the vote means in ANY Arab society. Since none of the nations there are rated democratic or even partially so except Israel, who cares if women can vote or not? Your point?
About as much as a vote means in 18th century America.  You know, where only land owning white men can vote and have any power?

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And no, I doubt they were saying similar things in 69 CE. Given that revolts are usually preceded by internal disturbances and great amounts of political intrigue, it is doubtful that all was peaceful. They were probably being unusually oppressed by Rome, and were likely heartily sick of it.
...
You... you don't even read your own quotes?
I was pointing out that the Jews most likely felt that Israel was not going to be defeated by Rome and that they would last forever. 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 12:13:06 AM
I expect that many Jews probably knew that their chances against the might of Rome were less than excellent. As far the two Rabbis, its true. They can't both be right. They could of course, both be wrong, in theory. The Rabbi I was reading about described evidences that a tribe of Levites left Egypt at the time of the Exodus.

Well, if you think that we can't expect better out of people today than we could in 66 CE, then you ought not criticise Israel for its handling of Hamas. In fact, they are doing a remarkable job of trying to preserve civilian life, given that they throw leaflets, make phone calls, issue text messages, and roof knock to get people to leave before taking out buildings. It is Hamas that orders civilians to stay in buildings in spite of these warnings.

Please note that I am NOT saying that Israel is perfect. I am sure that mistakes are made. It is a war, and people are killed. That is unfortunate. I am sure some civilian sites have mistakenly been hit. This is sad, but is often unavoidable, especially when Hamas uses such places as sites for weapons storage, and as places to maintain rocket launchers from which they actually attack Israel.  Using civilians as human shields makes them legitimate targets.

Given that America in the 18th Century actually had more human rights than any nation in history, I would say your commentary is  silly, verging on the outright stupid. Although the goal, of course, is to widen suffrage, rather than restrict it, and this has been done both in America, Britain, and in other countries, if you look at the times, America was doing quite well. No nation in the world allowed women or non-whites to vote. In fact, except for Britain, no nation allowed anyone to vote, per se. France did to a certain degree, I suppose, but they kept moving from Republic to Empire to Kingdom to Republic again, so...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 23, 2014, 01:30:13 AM
I expect that many Jews probably knew that their chances against the might of Rome were less than excellent. As far the two Rabbis, its true. They can't both be right. They could of course, both be wrong, in theory. The Rabbi I was reading about described evidences that a tribe of Levites left Egypt at the time of the Exodus.
Good, now that we've established you have no evidence of your original claim on that subject, we can move on.

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Well, if you think that we can't expect better out of people today than we could in 66 CE, then you ought not criticise Israel for its handling of Hamas. In fact, they are doing a remarkable job of trying to preserve civilian life, given that they throw leaflets, make phone calls, issue text messages, and roof knock to get people to leave before taking out buildings. It is Hamas that orders civilians to stay in buildings in spite of these warnings.
Not really.  In a world of instant news, not being seen as a butcher is very important.  I'm sure quite a few kings did the same, or at least kept it quiet by killing everyone.

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Please note that I am NOT saying that Israel is perfect. I am sure that mistakes are made. It is a war, and people are killed. That is unfortunate. I am sure some civilian sites have mistakenly been hit. This is sad, but is often unavoidable, especially when Hamas uses such places as sites for weapons storage, and as places to maintain rocket launchers from which they actually attack Israel.  Using civilians as human shields makes them legitimate targets.
A civilized country would hold their fire when presented with human shields.  Don't you agree?  Isn't that the point of a human shield?


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Given that America in the 18th Century actually had more human rights than any nation in history, I would say your commentary is  silly, verging on the outright stupid. Although the goal, of course, is to widen suffrage, rather than restrict it, and this has been done both in America, Britain, and in other countries, if you look at the times, America was doing quite well. No nation in the world allowed women or non-whites to vote. In fact, except for Britain, no nation allowed anyone to vote, per se. France did to a certain degree, I suppose, but they kept moving from Republic to Empire to Kingdom to Republic again, so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_suffrage#18th_century

Yeah no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#18th_and_19th_centuries

For a history major, Wikipedia seems to know more than you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 02:51:43 AM
Having not studied women's suffrage, I'm not overly well informed on the matter, no. But you'll notice that a lot of it was provincial or city, some of it was temporary. One can hold an advanced degree and not know the entire planet's history. Women's suffrage is not of particular interest to me. The point that I am making is that the USA did a pretty good job of advancing the vote, far better than most societies. And the vote actually meant something in America, when you could vote for national office, unlike Sweden, where you couldn't exactly vote for your King.

If an enemy uses human shields, you have to take out the targets they are shielding, to prevent those targets from being used against you. Therefore, you need to target such things, and after warning the people in the area, attack them. If they are stupid enough not to move people, that is their problem.

It should be noted that Wikipedia, though it does have faults, has some very good writers. If you observe the references, they are mostly highly respectable publications written by people with advanced degrees in their fields.

Regarding the question concerning the Rabbis, more and more evidence is coming to prove at least a partial Exodus from Egypt, though not on a scale of 2 million. Again, I don't have the reference. I would encourage you to find the references yourself. I have already done so, and at this point, at my age, I am inclined to take some things on faith. Again, it is not a problem for me. If it is for you, I expect that you should resolve the matter for yourself.

America may not have been ahead of the entire planet, but it was ahead of most places. Canada was still a part of the British Empire. In fact, Canadians were still at the mercy of the  British Parliament until 1982, at least officially. But hey, I stand corrected. Point granted regarding the vote.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 23, 2014, 12:26:58 PM
If an enemy uses human shields, you have to take out the targets they are shielding, to prevent those targets from being used against you. Therefore, you need to target such things, and after warning the people in the area, attack them. If they are stupid enough not to move people, that is their problem.

Police officers generally do not abide by this logic, at least as far as I'm aware. You don't slaughter civilians and then turn around and cry that they made you do it. Victim blaming is not okay.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 01:27:09 PM
No, you don't slaughter them. You warn them to get the hell out of the way, and then you give them sufficient time to move. Then you attack. Their failure to move then becomes their problem and not yours.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 23, 2014, 01:47:45 PM
No, you don't slaughter them. You warn them to get the hell out of the way, and then you give them sufficient time to move. Then you attack. Their failure to move then becomes their problem and not yours.
1. You assume they can move.  If I had a human shield, I would not allow them to stop being my human shield.  Kinda defeats the point.

2. So the UN school was warned ahead of time?

3. If Hama's did the same thing to the west bank, would Jews listen?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 01:52:08 PM
The UN school may or may not have been warned. I don't know, since the news is hardly trustworthy, and I wasn't there. I never said the IDF was perfect. If they can't move, then Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths, not Israel. The third point makes no sense, since Hamas is not in charge of the West Bank.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 23, 2014, 01:58:02 PM
The UN school may or may not have been warned. I don't know, since the news is hardly trustworthy, and I wasn't there. I never said the IDF was perfect. If they can't move, then Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths, not Israel. The third point makes no sense, since Hamas is not in charge of the West Bank.

If the news is untrustworthy then how do you know Hama's uses human shields?  How do you know people were warned? 

Replace west bank with whatever area Hama's usually shells.  I can't remember which area it is.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 02:02:33 PM
Israeli news reports that much. But even they are not sure if the school was warned or not. I am the first to admit, right now, it doesn't look as though it was.This was a pretty big fuck-up. And Jews don't use human shields.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 23, 2014, 02:06:35 PM
Israeli news reports that much. But even they are not sure if the school was warned or not. I am the first to admit, right now, it doesn't look as though it was.This was a pretty big fuck-up. And Jews don't use human shields.
But the news is untrustworthy.

So you're saying that building settlements in areas contested and often attacked is OK as is letting people stay in often attacked areas?
Jews in Israel must be stupid.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 02:08:11 PM
Settlers have bomb shelters they go to. Hamas is stupid, and doesn't bother to build such. I have to go. See you later.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 23, 2014, 02:54:11 PM
No, you don't slaughter them. You warn them to get the hell out of the way, and then you give them sufficient time to move. Then you attack. Their failure to move then becomes their problem and not yours.

Do you really think that police officers are willing to shoot someone through a human shield? It doesn't matter what their crime is, you don't shoot unless you can avoid hitting the shield.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 23, 2014, 03:02:06 PM
Hamas is stupid?

After weeks of conflict Hamas still have the capacity to fire rockets into Israel. The support for Hamas from Palestinians seem to be growing, while the international community is turning against Israel. Looks like Hamas have played the Israelis for fools.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
What Israel needs to do, and has yet failed to do, is invade the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and deport all the Arabs living there. Until they do this, and Greater Israel has been established, you are right. There will be no peace.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 23, 2014, 06:24:41 PM
The Arabs needs to be deported from a lot of places.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 23, 2014, 06:27:13 PM
I'm inclined to agree.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 23, 2014, 09:37:52 PM
I think we should deport the Jews from the Middle East. It only makes sense. They clearly don't belong there. That's the easiest solution.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 23, 2014, 09:46:23 PM
jews>muslims
There is no argument here.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 23, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
Agreed. Arabs should all be rounded up and kept in special camps, so we always have an easy way to account for their whereabouts and actions.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 23, 2014, 10:41:44 PM
Islam is the fucking problem, not Arabs. And it's only because in its super conservative years, it planted itself hard. So those years haven't ended in the Middle East.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 24, 2014, 12:02:39 AM
Agreed. Arabs should all be rounded up and kept in special camps, so we always have an easy way to account for their whereabouts and actions.

Yes. This is clearly the final solution to the Arabian problem. I'm sure yaakov would agree.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 24, 2014, 12:04:46 AM
We should switch out every version of the Quran with the Book of Mormon. It's a more engaging sequel anyways, and Mormons are really nice. Maybe they would stop killing us.

Or, we could just unleash millions of Kodiak bears into key Muslim communities.

Many of you are probably aware of this biblical passage

Elisha and the Two Bears (2 Kings 2:23-25)
"23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria."

Maybe the bears would put the fear of God into them. The real God, I mean.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 24, 2014, 01:47:32 AM
I've got no desire to put anybody in camps. I'm no Nazi. I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it. So that means deportation from all Western States, including Greater Israel. I'm not in favour of internment, or murder, or any batshit crazy ass stuff like that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 24, 2014, 01:50:53 AM
Maybe the bears would put the fear of God into them. The real God, I mean.
One thing that I can never quite wrap my head around is the fact that Muslims and Jews both worship the same God.  From what's going on, I can only assume that it's the old testament, warmongering version of God.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 24, 2014, 01:58:17 AM
I've got no desire to put anybody in camps. I'm no Nazi. I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it. So that means deportation from all Western States, including Greater Israel. I'm not in favour of internment, or murder, or any batshit crazy ass stuff like that.

Confining all adherents of a particular religion to a certain place is internment.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 24, 2014, 01:59:10 AM
I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it.
Apparently there seems to be a difference of opinion as to what exactly "their own part of the world" means.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 24, 2014, 02:02:13 AM
Maybe the bears would put the fear of God into them. The real God, I mean.
One thing that I can never quite wrap my head around is the fact that Muslims and Jews both worship the same God.  From what's going on, I can only assume that it's the old testament, warmongering version of God.

Yes, they worship the same God. But that's not the problem. The problem is "their God" got more character development in the Quran and the Jews don't agree with that character development. Therefore, murder.

I think the bears might solve this problem though.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on August 24, 2014, 02:05:57 AM
I'm not in favour of internment.  I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it.

What do you think internment is?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 24, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
I've got no desire to put anybody in camps. I'm no Nazi. I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it. So that means deportation from all Western States, including Greater Israel. I'm not in favour of internment, or murder, or any batshit crazy ass stuff like that.

If you're going to concentrate all of the Muslim population in one region, you could at least provide some camps for them to live in.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 24, 2014, 11:57:03 AM
What Israel needs to do, and has yet failed to do, is invade the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and deport all the Arabs living there. Until they do this, and Greater Israel has been established, you are right. There will be no peace.

There won't be any peace after that either.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 24, 2014, 09:21:13 PM
In all seriousness, if we're gonna break international and moral law by deporting everyone of a certain religion, it would make more sense to target the Jews. There are fewer of them and it would be more logistically possible.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 24, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
Just make usury a crime again and most would leave of their own accord.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 24, 2014, 09:24:54 PM
Except that we have a claim on that territory that goes back 4500 years. Arabs do not. Ka-ching, thank you for playing! And really, there are more Jews in Israel proper, at least, than there are Muslims. So, there you go.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 24, 2014, 09:26:03 PM
A 4500 year old claim. Yeah, that will be worth the paper it is written on. Exactly where is it written? Or did the sky fairy tell you so?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 24, 2014, 09:26:49 PM
Except that we have a claim on that territory that goes back 4500 years. Arabs do not. Ka-ching, thank you for playing! And really, there are more Jews in Israel proper, at least, than there are Muslims. So, there you go.

Incorrect and irrelevant. We're already violating morality and international law. It really doesn't matter how long ago your invisible sky fairy gave you your land. We're taking it from you in the interest of peace. Isn't that what you suggested?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 24, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
I find it amusing that Thork and I both separately used the phrase 'sky fairy'
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 24, 2014, 09:31:55 PM
Sad that the basic lessons taught in kindergarten (like sharing for example) are completely beyond these people. We are taking your land in the name of peace and love because you obviously can't take care of yourselves.

Time for daddy USA to get involved.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 24, 2014, 11:42:10 PM
All of this rubbish really needs to be moved into a new thread titled "Jews vs Muslims: Effective trolling technique".
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 24, 2014, 11:50:17 PM
Wouldn't even be having this argument had jemand done their job correctly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 12:03:55 AM
Whatever. Arguing with an atheist is like arguing with a wall. Claiming that everything occurred by accident is the stupidest claim I've ever heard in 40 years of life. No further comment necessary. I will add that Arabs did not live outside of Arabia until AFTER 632 CE, however. That is a LONG time after the Jews were living happily in Eretz Israel. Frankly, if it were up to me, all the Arabs in the world would be contained to the Arabian Peninsula. But unfortunately, the bastards wouldn't fit. They breed like rabbits, having litters rather than families. So at least contain them to the Arab World, and keep them there.

I don't believe in killing anyone. That's just batshit crazy. But confine their asses, yes, and put them where they belong, out of the way, and let them know that they are to do what they are told, when they are told, how they are told, without argument, and any resistance will be met with force.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 12:18:09 AM
Whatever. Arguing with an atheist is like arguing with a wall. Claiming that everything occurred by accident is the stupidest claim I've ever heard in 40 years of life. No further comment necessary.

Claiming that everything "occurred by accident" is not a pre-requisite of atheism.

I don't believe in killing anyone. That's just batshit crazy. But confine their asses, yes, and put them where they belong, out of the way, and let them know that they are to do what they are told, when they are told, how they are told, without argument, and any resistance will be met with force.

Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 12:23:15 AM
Read the Qur'an. That is EXACTLY what they will do to us (Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians), if they are ever in control. And as an atheist, guess what? You are fucked. They will execute your ass for "insulting Islam."
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 12:25:48 AM
Read the Qur'an. That is EXACTLY what they will do to us (Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians), if they are ever in control. And as an atheist, guess what? You are fucked. They will execute your ass for "insulting Islam."

If Jews or Christians still did half the shit the old testament dictates, they'd be doing some pretty objectionable things too. Not all muslims take the Qur'an literally, just like not all Jews or Christians obey every law laid down by the old testament.

Thus saying "read the Qur'an" is irrelevant. It won't give me any more information about Muslims than reading the Bible will inform me about Jews or Christians.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 12:35:39 AM
Go to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, Sudan, Afghanistan, and any number of other Islamic countries and violate Shariah in any way. Particularly go to any of the above named countries and publicly state that "Mohammed is not a Prophet." You will be sentenced to death for insulting Islam. Even supposedly "secular" Muslim countries derive their laws in part from the Sharia Code, with the exception of Turkey, and Turkey under Erdogan is even beginning to flirt with Islamist shite. The fact is, the majority of Muslims DO stand behind the Sharia, unlike the majority of Jews, who, even if they are ultra-Orthodox, do not seek to impose it on non-Jews. And Christians, no matter how obnoxious, and I agree that many are, do not generally force their Faith on you under threat of State sanctioned execution.

You can't argue this with me. I have studied Islam from the inside. I went to Mosque for two years, and learned from the inside. I know the way the bastards think. They are a danger to the State, and the civilised world, and must be treated as such. Murder is far too much. That is just batshit crazy. But we need to control them, and force them to submit to Judeo-Christian control. I have had Muslims tell me that their biggest goal was to submit the world to Muslim dominance. In fact, I have had A LOT of Muslims, probably the majority of the ones I know, and I know many, tell me that. So your argument is fundamentally bullshit. It is made up of PC, white guilt crap. Grow up, and quit apologising.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 25, 2014, 12:41:19 AM
Except that we have a claim on that territory that goes back 4500 years. Arabs do not. Ka-ching, thank you for playing!
Yeah, but no one cares, so...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2014, 12:52:10 AM
In all seriousness, if we're gonna break international and moral law by deporting everyone of a certain religion, it would make more sense to target the Jews. There are fewer of them and it would be more logistically possible.
Yeah, we can move them all to Mexico.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJgi-Lou1NA
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:04:52 AM
Go to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, Sudan, Afghanistan, and any number of other Islamic countries and violate Shariah in any way. Particularly go to any of the above named countries and publicly state that "Mohammed is not a Prophet." You will be sentenced to death for insulting Islam. Even supposedly "secular" Muslim countries derive their laws in part from the Sharia Code, with the exception of Turkey, and Turkey under Erdogan is even beginning to flirt with Islamist shite. The fact is, the majority of Muslims DO stand behind the Sharia, unlike the majority of Jews, who, even if they are ultra-Orthodox, do not seek to impose it on non-Jews. And Christians, no matter how obnoxious, and I agree that many are, do not generally force their Faith on you under threat of State sanctioned execution.

You can't argue this with me. I have studied Islam from the inside. I went to Mosque for two years, and learned from the inside. I know the way the bastards think. They are a danger to the State, and the civilised world, and must be treated as such. Murder is far too much. That is just batshit crazy. But we need to control them, and force them to submit to Judeo-Christian control. I have had Muslims tell me that their biggest goal was to submit the world to Muslim dominance. In fact, I have had A LOT of Muslims, probably the majority of the ones I know, and I know many, tell me that. So your argument is fundamentally bullshit. It is made up of PC, white guilt crap. Grow up, and quit apologising.

Sorry, but saying "I went to muslim countries" doesn't work. If I based my entire stereotype of what a Jew is like, for example, on you, then I'd be morally obligated to become a politician and ban Judaism. However, since I know other Jews are sane, I see no need to do so.

The problem is that you are taking the crazies and then stretching them over the whole people. This is, well, racism. You can't take a single person or region and say "you're all like this" because I know plenty of Muslims who don't kill me for being atheist and have no desire to do so. I'd even go as far as to say I've been exposed to a higher variation and combination of people than you have.

Crazy people exist, such as yourself, but they're not everywhere. Hell, I'd even say you think crazy people are everywhere because you are crazy.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:10:42 AM
Your argument fails, because I am one person. I just mentioned the majority of the Muslim world and the people living in it. Lets see, one person<the majority of the Muslim world. How does that work, hmmm? Quit making excuses for people who want you and me dead as door-nails.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2014, 01:13:46 AM
No atheist with an education claims anything happens by accident.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:17:21 AM
No atheist with an education claims anything happens by accident.

I'm an atheist with an education, and I believe that yaakov happened by accident.

School-yard jokes aside, this is a really messed up conversation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
Your argument fails, because I am one person. I just mentioned the majority of the Muslim world and the people living in it. Lets see, one person<the majority of the Muslim world. How does that work, hmmm? Quit making excuses for people who want you and me dead as door-nails.

I think the problem is the region, not the religion. The middle east had very stable and proper countries for quite some time until Europe began having a more active, how can I say it... "relation" with them. Their extremism isn't due to being Muslim, it's due to being in a prolonged state of conflict.

And I'm not making excuses for them, I'm stating that your opinion of Muslims as a whole is simply uncalled for and quite frankly I think you're crazy as balls.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:27:32 AM
It seems to me that the current state of the Middle East can probably be tied to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI in the same way that feudal Europe was a result of the collapse of Rome. Without a strong, centralized government one can expect the formation of small, localized governments ruled by whoever has the biggest biceps. And in such a society, one can expect the guy with the big biceps to use radical religion as an excuse to keep down the peasants.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:30:05 AM
I'm not crazy at all. I'm a fucking realist. Anybody else is an idealist. This turn the other cheek shit gets you nothing except bruises on both sides of your face. The Muslims hit you, you hit them back, HARD! Its that fucking simple. They have been asking for it since 1948. Its time to pay the bastards back in spades.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 25, 2014, 01:30:19 AM
Oh this is an atheism thread now.  Cool.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:31:48 AM
I'm not even going to respond to that. I have already gone down the atheism thread at length. God exists, atheism is stupid, end of story. Ka-ching, thank you for playing!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 01:31:59 AM
I'm not crazy at all. I'm a fucking realist. Anybody else is an idealist.

Everybody except for you is an idealist?

Ka-ching, thank you for playing!

What is this "ka-ching" business all about? It sounds like a cash register opening. Maybe Saddam's theory that you're just a retardedly elaborate fictional character created to satirize stereotypical Jews isn't as crazy as I thought.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:33:03 AM
Yes. Anybody who believes that one can interact with Muslims on anything less than a war footing is an idealist, and verges on being an idiot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:34:33 AM
Yes. Anybody who believes that one can interact with Muslims on anything less than a war footing is an idealist, and verges on being an idiot.

I haven't been so amused by a character troll since the early days of New Earth
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 01:36:04 AM
I'm not crazy at all. I'm a fucking realist. Anybody else is an idealist.

Everybody except for you is an idealist?
Yes.

Epic.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:37:13 AM
ALEXANDYR, you took me out of context, as you would need my entire answer to understand what I said.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:38:09 AM
That's only barely true
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:40:03 AM
You know what would be awesome is like a debate between Yaakov, Levee, and November. I would pay to see it. War of the nutters.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 01:42:14 AM
Three is a nice balanced number, but I would really like to see New Earth make a return and enter the ring as well. Aren't Levee and November Muslim?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:43:44 AM
Maybe New Earth, Yaakov, and November. I did really hate scrolling through Levee's posts.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:43:59 AM
You can't have a mad cat fight without James
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 01:46:05 AM
You can't have a mad cat fight without James

How could I forget? I'm not exaggerating when I say that James is/was my favorite poster of all time. Those zetetically obtained duck pictures...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:46:47 AM
Alright, alright back to the topic at hand. I found a pretty graphic that explains the Middle East fairly well.

(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/uploads/2014/7/17/graphical_version.png.CROP.promo-mediumlarge.png)

No one is friends with ISIS. :(
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 01:47:49 AM
Since I don't know either of the other two persons, I can't respond to that. I suspect it probably wouldn't be as interesting as you think, though. My passion is this subject. On any other subject, I am generally a very rational person. In fact, some time ago, some one asked me my opinion of the Israeli- "Palestinian" conflict, and I told them I wasn't the right person to ask, given my strong views on the subject.

My point being, your other two friends are probably motivated by totally different subjects than I am. What would be the point of a debate between people who have no mutual interests? How dull.

EDIT: Now, if they're Muslim, that could be a Cluster-Fuck. If they live in the Muslim World, there is nothing to debate about, though, because they are where they belong. If they are in Greater Israel or the West, that would be a different story. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 01:53:01 AM
Since I don't know either of the other two persons, I can't respond to that. I suspect it probably wouldn't be as interesting as you think, though. My passion is this subject. On any other subject, I am generally a very rational person. In fact, some time ago, some one asked me my opinion of the Israeli- "Palestinian" conflict, and I told them I wasn't the right person to ask, given my strong views on the subject.

My point being, your other two friends are probably motivated by totally different subjects than I am. What would be the point of a debate between people who have no mutual interests? How dull.

EDIT: Now, if they're Muslim, that could be a Cluster-Fuck. If they live in the Muslim World, there is nothing to debate about, though, because they are where they belong. If they are in Greater Israel or the West, that would be a different story. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

Oh, they have very strong opinions on Zionism. Levee is convinced that Jews made up quite a lot of recent history, that the holocaust is fake, etc. November additionally believes nuclear weapons aren't real and are simply a ploy to advance their zionism in the name of stopping nuclear programs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 01:54:39 AM
Since I don't know either of the other two persons, I can't respond to that. I suspect it probably wouldn't be as interesting as you think, though. My passion is this subject. On any other subject, I am generally a very rational person. In fact, some time ago, some one asked me my opinion of the Israeli- "Palestinian" conflict, and I told them I wasn't the right person to ask, given my strong views on the subject.

My point being, your other two friends are probably motivated by totally different subjects than I am. What would be the point of a debate between people who have no mutual interests? How dull.

EDIT: Now, if they're Muslim, that could be a Cluster-Fuck. If they live in the Muslim World, there is nothing to debate about, though, because they are where they belong. If they are in Greater Israel or the West, that would be a different story. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

So you really don't think it matters what Arabs do or what happens to them, as long as they stay in what you believe to be their part of the world? This might be a bit too idealistic for you, but wouldn't it be better if conditions in the Middle East improved so people wouldn't feel the need to achieve their goals through violence? Terrorist organizations are almost always born from horrific environments. When groups of people are pushed to their breaking point and they feel they have no other recourse but violence, they're considered terrorists. I'm not defending ISIS, however. ISIS is terrible. But as long as we're using our imaginations to conjure up ridiculous scenarios (like confining a group comprising more than one billion people by force to a certain part of the world), why not create a more positive one?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 01:55:26 AM
Wasn't there an Islamic missionary-type who stopped by the old forums every once in a while to try to convert people? That would be interesting.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain most of the people listed have conflicting conspiracy theories involving Zionists (I'm not sure, I don't generally read their entire posts). You'd probably be quite interested.

EDIT: his name was AbdulAziz. He was a cool guy.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2014, 02:00:35 AM
I wanna make a note:

Israel is in the middle of the middle east.  So any Arabs and Muslims who live there are in their correct place.  It's Jews who don't belong there.  You know, in the middle of the Muslim part of the world.

Also: Israel's primary export is cut jewels and weapons. 

if all Muslims were supposed to kill non-muslims then America, Europe, and Scandinavia would have a lot of dead Christians by Muslim hands.  Why not?

Also, Kiras Jole.  That's all Jews right?  They are all Jews so they must follow the Jewish teachings right?

Finally: please don't assume someone is a monster for enforcing their laws or reacting when their culture is threatened.  Ex: Jews should be illegal because they're greedy bastards.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 02:04:05 AM
Yaakov is really a Muslim trying to polarize the forum into hating Jews by constantly exemplifying every negative attribute imaginable.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 02:05:12 AM
He needs an avatar.

(https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607996232111492515&pid=15.1&P=0)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 02:11:56 AM
So they are psychotic bastards. ok. Good to know. Not worth debating. Anyone who denies the Holocaust is simply an idiot. Anyone who thinks nukes don't exist is a moron who should be confined to a nut ward for his own safely. Fucktard.

As far as I am concerned, all Muslims, Arab and non-Arab, should be confined to the Muslim world, which is more than just the Arab world. And no, I really don't care what happens to them, as long as they are so confined. And all non-Muslims should be removed for their own safety from that part of the world. I know that sucks. But welcome to real life. Its been done before. Sudeten Germans after WWII. Some Muslims from India, most Hindus from Pakistan/Bangladesh. Most Jews from Arab nations. Arabs from Israel proper into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Shit happens, man. Life's a bitch and then you die.

Missionaries of the Christian variety are fun to fuck with. I bet I could have LOTS of entertainment with a Muslim.

Well, Dave,we've been over this. Jews have a claim on Eretz Israel going back 4500 years, so you just sound like an ass. If we could, the proper place  for all Arabs would be the Arabian fucking Peninsula, where they were all contained before 632 CE. But since they breed like rabbits and have litters instead of fucking families, the best we can do is give them the Arab world. That allows for 22 countries for them. Israel is one, very small one. So you just sound like a fucktard.

And the statement that Jews are greedy bastards has no evidence to support it and just shows that you ARE a fucktard. Scandinavia is STILL predominantly Scandinavian. Norway has the most Muslims of any Nordic country at 11%. They are not yet in a position to impose Sharia, idiot. Nor are they in that position in America or Continental Europe or Britain.

And you forget that Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians do have the option of paying a special tax, the Jizya. You aren't very well informed are you, fucktard?

Kiryas Joel (spelling would be helpful, fucktard), is unique. Notice that they don't impose their will on anyone outside the village, which comprises about 1.6 sq. miles. There is one other village a bit like it, South Williamsburg, but other than that, you will not find anything like it in the USA, and only a few places like it in Israel. And none of those places are trying to expand. They are happy with the size and influence they have. Get your facts straight, fucktard.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 02:15:31 AM
But since they breed like rabbits and have litters instead of fucking families, the best we can do is give them the Arab world.

Quote
And the statement that Jews are greedy bastards has no evidence to support it and just shows that you ARE a fucktard.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 02:17:01 AM
So they are psychotic bastards. ok. Good to know. Not worth debating. Anyone who denies the Holocaust is simply an idiot. Anyone who thinks nukes don't exist is a moron who should be confined to a nut ward for his own safely. Fucktard.

But Yaakov, they're your kind of people. They're just like you. Sure, they have different beliefs, but you're all the same on the crazy radar. It doesn't care what kind of crazy, all it sees is that you all have neurons with one too few synapses.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 02:19:29 AM
It's amusing that you keep speaking of "real life" and then talking about forcefully containing 1.2 billion people in the same breath. That has never been done before, and if the world ever tried it (it won't, obviously), there would most likely be a third world war. The Middle East would understandably go insane. More than one billion "terrorists" would be born. Obviously, forceful internment on such a scale would never actually work, so there would be constant attacks all over the world by "confined" Muslims protesting against the situation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 02:22:19 AM
Solution to problem. Any refusal of Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab, to do what they are told results in every country that is majority Muslim being made into a parking lot and having however many Wal-marts built as would be good for business.

And remember, all non-Muslims would leave the Muslim world as well. There would be no commerce between the two parts of the planet except that which absolutely had to occur.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 02:25:29 AM
That's the first reasonable thing you've said so far. Oh, wait, I accidentally re-read my own post. What you said was completely retarded, as expected.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 02:26:40 AM
And the first thing you would do when they resisted is to pour pig fat all over Mecca and Medina. If that didn't work, the next step would be to blow both cities to smithereens.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 25, 2014, 02:29:24 AM
Solution to problem. Any refusal of Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab, to do what they are told results in every country that is majority Muslim being made into a parking lot and having however many Wal-marts built as would be good for business.

And remember, all non-Muslims would leave the Muslim world as well. There would be no commerce between the two parts of the planet except that which absolutely had to occur.

I've got no desire to put anybody in camps. I'm no Nazi. I just think Muslims need to be put back in their own part of the world, and not allowed to leave it. So that means deportation from all Western States, including Greater Israel. I'm not in favour of internment, or murder, or any batshit crazy ass stuff like that.

Also, you do understand how close you just to literally using the phrase "final solution", right?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 02:36:29 AM
I'm a fucking realist.
I thought you were Jewish.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 02:42:17 AM
As I said, I have no desire to kill anybody. Force them back to where they came from, and keep them there. If they resist, slime the "Holy Cities" with pig fat. Further resistance gets the Cities incinerated, after the people there have a chance to leave. All non-Muslims have to leave the Muslim world. There is no further commerce between there world and ours.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 02:49:51 AM
Maybe the Jews could relinquish their control over the western world too. You know, just to be fair.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 02:53:04 AM
Another stupid comment from the Peanut Gallery. If we have control over the Western World, we certainly don't exercise it very well. My God, we control it so well we've gotten six million of us killed, and have managed to make ourselves pretty much the most hated group on the planet!

God, you are more of a fucktard than Dave! You actually believe that Jews control the Western World? How do we do that, and still get ourselves eaten alive? Are you truly so stupid as to think that a group of people could control the fucking world and do so badly and yet continue to do it? Fool!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 02:55:23 AM
My God, we control it so well we've gotten six million of us killed, and have managed to make ourselves pretty much the most hated group on the planet!

What makes you think Jews are the most hated group on the planet?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 03:02:19 AM
Aside from Gypsies, who are probably equally hated, no one else has been the target of a complete and total genocide. Every other group in history has always had some way out. They could either leave the area, convert to the predominant religion, submit to the political will of the dominant authority, etc. Jews and Gypsies were the exception. NO OPTION was made for them. They were going to die no matter what they did to please the Nazis.

Even your asking the question implies that you either one, have never studied the question (which I hope is the answer), which implies ignorance, which is fine, since that can be corrected through education, or two, you are simply too stupid to comprehend the answer (which I hope is NOT the case). I'm not sure. You tell me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:09:21 AM
Hitler killed more gays and gypsies than Jews, but I don't recall the gays and gypsies getting their own country. Oh, right, the world still hates gays and gypsies. I forgot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 03:15:39 AM
Actually, he killed about 1.5 million Gypsies.  And 6 million Jews. So, explain how 1.5 is more than 6. And I don't recall ever seeing a number on homosexuals.

However, homosexuals do not constitute an ethnic group. The Gypsies do, but have NEVER, at ANY point in history, had a state of their own. They originated in Northern India as a transient group, and have REMAINED transient throughout their history. They have NEVER asked for their own state. They don't want one. Again, get your facts straight.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 03:18:58 AM
Aside from Gypsies, who are probably equally hated, no one else has been the target of a complete and total genocide. Every other group in history has always had some way out. They could either leave the area, convert to the predominant religion, submit to the political will of the dominant authority, etc. Jews and Gypsies were the exception. NO OPTION was made for them. They were going to die no matter what they did to please the Nazis.

Even if I were to concede that what you just said is true (it isn't), it wouldn't matter. You made it sound as though Jews were one of the most hated groups in the present. Only a few members of fringe groups believe that the holocaust was justified.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:26:42 AM
Actually, he killed about 1.5 million Gypsies.  And 6 million Jews. So, explain how 1.5 is more than 6. And I don't recall ever seeing a number on homosexuals.

However, homosexuals do not constitute an ethnic group. The Gypsies do, but have NEVER, at ANY point in history, had a state of their own. They originated in Northern India as a transient group, and have REMAINED transient throughout their history. They have NEVER asked for their own state. They don't want one. Again, get your facts straight.

We first off I said gays and gypsies. Second off, about 12 million died in the Holocaust, only about half of which were Jews. The rest were gays, gypsies, and political dissidents. Hitler didn't single out the Jews, he hated all sorts of people, there just happened to be a lot more Jews than the others.

Furthermore, I honestly don't care what they did or didn't want. It seems to me only one group in particular whined loud enough for the UN to hear them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 03:39:26 AM
One doesn't have to agree the Holocaust was justified to hate Jews! I don't want to murder Muslims, but I think I can fairly say that I despise them and everything they stand for. Although I did find myself oddly defending them yesterday at Synagogue. But that's another matter.

The fact remains that even today, Jews are held to a different standard than the rest of humanity, and so is the nation of Israel. You can argue this all you want. The facts are clear. Your attempt to disagree fails, as it always has, and always will. ANY other nation on  Earth, when faced with an enemy like Hamas, would be expected to respond as forcefully or moreso than Israel is, and if it did not, its own people would rise up in revolt against their government for failure to protect them.

The United States was attacked on 11 September '01. We proceeded to turn Afghanistan and Iraq both into parking lots, killing several hundred thousand Iraqis, an unknown number of Afghans, and however many Americans. No one said a fucking word. Israel kills 2000 "Palestinians" who are being used as human shields by their own fucking government while that government, which is illegitimate, a terrorist organisation, recognised as such by Israel, the USA, and the EU, continues to enjoy the sympathy of the world, no matter that they kill innocent Israelis, which have nothing to do with their fight. They are cowards.

But, hey, blame the Jews. Far easier to do that than blame the Arabs, the cowards who hide behind women and kids. And then get all teary eyed when those women and children die. Blame the Jew. Fuck you.

The Gypsies didn't WANT a state, asshole. again, get your fucking facts straight. And 11 million, not 12 million, died in the camps. And he deliberately targeted Jews and Gypsies. Everyone else was people who just happened to be in the way. Again, get your facts straight.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:44:41 AM
I'm not sure you know this, but stating something false and then saying "get your facts straight" doesn't suddenly turn your information into truth.

In addition, most of the world doesn't hate Jews, they hate Zionists (you know, people who want to murder everyone who isn't a Jew, like you). The Middle East would not be in the shit state is in today if not for Israel and its Zionist shenanigans. Zionists should all be rounded up by force and sent to the moon. If any of them fight back, shoot them. (sound familiar?)

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 03:46:59 AM
Of course, what you are saying is stupid, since even the UN, which rarely has any fucking brains, and said in '75 that Zionism was racism, actually was smart enough to retract that statement in the early 90's, one of the few times that the UN has served any valid purpose at all in the last 40 years. Again, get your facts straight.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:52:02 AM
Of course, what you are saying is stupid, since even the UN, which rarely has any fucking brains, and said in '75 that Zionism was racism, actually was smart enough to retract that statement in the early 90's, one of the few times that the UN has served any valid purpose at all in the last 40 years. Again, get your facts straight.

This is the same UN that made the original mistake of giving you people land in the first place. I don't honestly care what they think about Zionism. Israel historically doesn't like the UN, anyway. Independent inspectors from the UN said Iran is not a threat to peace, then Israel proceeded to whine about it (violently). I honestly, truly think if Israel never existed, the world would be at least 25% a better place.

Ironic, though, that Hitler thought Jews were ruining the world, but his actions created Zionists that really are ruining it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 25, 2014, 03:56:00 AM
One doesn't have to agree the Holocaust was justified to hate Jews! I don't want to murder Muslims, but I think I can fairly say that I despise them and everything they stand for. Although I did find myself oddly defending them yesterday at Synagogue. But that's another matter.

Okay. When I asked for evidence that Jews were hated, you brought up the Holocaust. That's why I addressed the Holocaust.

Quote
The fact remains that even today, Jews are held to a different standard than the rest of humanity, and so is the nation of Israel. You can argue this all you want. The facts are clear. Your attempt to disagree fails, as it always has, and always will. ANY other nation on  Earth, when faced with an enemy like Hamas, would be expected to respond as forcefully or moreso than Israel is, and if it did not, its own people would rise up in revolt against their government for failure to protect them.

This is entirely speculative, so I wouldn't say that "the facts are clear". I think that if any nation were doing what Israel is doing, the reaction would be the same.

Quote
The United States was attacked on 11 September '01. We proceeded to turn Afghanistan and Iraq both into parking lots, killing several hundred thousand Iraqis, an unknown number of Afghans, and however many Americans. No one said a fucking word.

Maybe you should take a break from that dissertation every once and a while and read the news or speak to another human being.

Quote
Israel kills 2000 "Palestinians" who are being used as human shields by their own fucking government while that government, which is illegitimate, a terrorist organisation, recognised as such by Israel, the USA, and the EU, continues to enjoy the sympathy of the world, no matter that they kill innocent Israelis, which have nothing to do with their fight. They are cowards.

But, hey, blame the Jews. Far easier to do that than blame the Arabs, the cowards who hide behind women and kids. And then get all teary eyed when those women and children die. Blame the Jew. Fuck you.

Who are you even talking to? These are the irrelevant ramblings of an insane person.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 04:05:36 AM
The UN didn't give Israel shite. Israel took the land, and then fought a war against Arab filth to keep it. Then the UN graciously recognised the facts on the fucking ground. The UN has never served a purpose, not since it was created, except MAYBE to initiate the Korean War.

And anyone who considers Iran with fucking nuclear capability is not a threat to peace should be arrested for the offence of Felony Stupid. And blaming Israel for being a threat to peace is just retarded. When has Israel ever started a war except the Six Day War, and even then, that was in response to the building up of armies at its borders of several Arab armies? Grow up.

I am truly beginning to think you two are as stupid as you are look.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2014, 04:55:15 AM
It seems to me that the current state of the Middle East can probably be tied to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI in the same way that feudal Europe was a result of the collapse of Rome. Without a strong, centralized government one can expect the formation of small, localized governments ruled by whoever has the biggest biceps. And in such a society, one can expect the guy with the big biceps to use radical religion as an excuse to keep down the peasants.
I think that it's also safe to say that much of the problem comes from the fact that a lot of borders were redrawn and pro-western leaders installed with no regard to ethnic, religious or tribal concerns. 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2014, 11:46:40 AM
When has Israel ever started a war except the Six Day War, and even then, that was in response to the building up of armies at its borders of several Arab armies? Grow up.

A few times actually. Refer to the list of wars involving Israel "historian".
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 12:02:45 PM
3 times. All of which are understandable. The Six Day War started when Arabs intended to attack Israel. The Suez War was fought alongside other nations when Egypt attempted to nationalise the Suez Canal. And the Lebanon War was fair, since it followed the assassination of an Israeli Ambassador. You aren't too bright, are you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 12:07:46 PM
Out of pure curiosity, whatever happened to Excelsior John?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 25, 2014, 12:40:28 PM
I'm part gypsy, I want a state!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2014, 12:41:30 PM
3 times. All of which are understandable. The Six Day War started when Arabs intended to attack Israel. The Suez War was fought alongside other nations when Egypt attempted to nationalise the Suez Canal. And the Lebanon War was fair, since it followed the assassination of an Israeli Ambassador. You aren't too bright, are you?

You say Israel only started one war, and one post later with minimal prodding you admit it is 3, and then in a petulant display, insult me because you were wrong.  Ka-ching!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2014, 12:41:34 PM
I'm part gypsy, I want a state!
You already have Romania. >:(
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 02:15:10 PM
(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/remember+the+60+milion+.+Just+an+old+goodie+pritty+much_81425f_5180316.png)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 25, 2014, 02:20:31 PM
That's a really clean polandball.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 03:09:14 PM
But Polandball wasn't there.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 25, 2014, 03:33:05 PM
3 times. All of which are understandable. The Six Day War started when Arabs intended to attack Israel. The Suez War was fought alongside other nations when Egypt attempted to nationalise the Suez Canal. And the Lebanon War was fair, since it followed the assassination of an Israeli Ambassador. You aren't too bright, are you?

You say Israel only started one war, and one post later with minimal prodding you admit it is 3, and then in a petulant display, insult me because you were wrong.  Ka-ching!


To be fair to Yaakov, who is nuts, you moved the goalposts and he responded accordingly. Your first post used the 'started', the second used 'involving'. Those two verbs are obviously going to produce different answers (though I still think he's wrong because Israel has definitely instigated conflicts other than the 6-Day war, e.g. Suez crisis etc).


You made it sound as though Jews were one of the most hated groups in the present. Only a few members of fringe groups believe that the holocaust was justified.


Much as it would be nice to pretend that the past is the past, enough people don't to justify his claim:


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 25, 2014, 03:38:21 PM
The hatred against Jews in Europe is more from Arabs living in Europe than actual Europeans, from I have seen. Sure, they were born there but their parents were from the Middle East and that's not quite good enough. I don't want it to be painted like actual Europeans are going all Nazi when it's actually these Arabs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
If a Jewish country fucked up my homeland bad enough that my parents had to leave, I'd probably hate them too. Its just they should only target Zionists, not Jews.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on August 25, 2014, 03:41:42 PM
To be clear, I don't want to get all purist up in here, but I want to make it kind of clear where the spike of anti-Semitism is coming from.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 25, 2014, 03:49:25 PM
The problem is that Yaakov thinks most of the world hates Israel because its Jewish, whereas most of the world actually hates Israel because of the shit it stirs up. This leads to overall Jewish hate. Basically, he suffers from "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2014, 03:58:49 PM
Jews are not beautiful.

Exhibit A. The Glazer family.
(http://www.sptimes.com/2004/12/26/images/A_1_glazer4_TP101_1226.jpg)

Exhibit B. Mark Zuckerberg
(http://www.celebhairdo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/mark-zuckerberg-le-fondateur-de-facebook-230x300.jpg)

Exhibit C. Woody Allen.
(http://htmlgiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/anniehoofd1.jpg)

Jews invariably have hook noses, pubic head hair, big ears, beady eyes and rodent like teeth. They are not beautiful. In fact, the original Dracula film (Nosferatu) was based on jewish stereotypes because of the bloodsucking.
(http://www.thsh.co.uk/files/images/applicationfiles/5343.6865.31OctHalloweenNosferatuandEllen/630x44.fitwithoffset.jpg)
^This should be your avatar Yaakov.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2014, 04:18:12 PM
3 times. All of which are understandable. The Six Day War started when Arabs intended to attack Israel. The Suez War was fought alongside other nations when Egypt attempted to nationalise the Suez Canal. And the Lebanon War was fair, since it followed the assassination of an Israeli Ambassador. You aren't too bright, are you?

You say Israel only started one war, and one post later with minimal prodding you admit it is 3, and then in a petulant display, insult me because you were wrong.  Ka-ching!


To be fair to Yaakov, who is nuts, you moved the goalposts and he responded accordingly. Your first post used the 'started', the second used 'involving'. Those two verbs are obviously going to produce different answers (though I still think he's wrong because Israel has definitely instigated conflicts other than the 6-Day war, e.g. Suez crisis etc).


Not really. I was referring to an article titled "List of Wars Involving Israel" posted previously in this thread which shows that of the wars Israel was involved in, they had started more than one. I could have made that clearer, but posting from a phone sucks.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 08:59:14 PM
I'll grant I was wrong in my earlier claim of 1 when 3 is correct. Incidently, do note that the IDF just destroyed rocket launchers hidden @ a refugee camp where civilians were sheltered, after warning them to leave. How typical of Arab cowards to use women & kids to fight.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2014, 09:21:19 PM
Aren't there women in the IDF???
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 09:32:38 PM
Of course. But they are soldiers, trained to fight, just as American women in the military are trained to fight. Don't be a schmuck. I was referring to civilians, as you well knew. But, to be PC, I'll say, civilian men, women, and children.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2014, 03:44:18 AM
Incidently, do note that the IDF just destroyed rocket launchers hidden @ a refugee camp where civilians were sheltered, after warning them to leave. How typical of Arab cowards to use women & kids to fight.
What makes you think that the women and children had the option to leave?  Also, what does it say about Israel if it has little regard for innocent women and children casualties?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 04:15:13 AM
Israel gave them ample warning to leave, as it always does, by leaflet, phone calls, text messages, and roof knocking. It is Hamas that forces the civilians to stay in spite of them having been advised to leave. Hamas is therefore responsible for all civilian deaths, not Israel.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2014, 04:25:30 AM
Yes, because Hamas pulled the trigger for Israel.  ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 04:27:02 AM
Israel is responsible to protect her own civilians from Hamas rocket launchers. If that means killing the enemy in order to do it, then, so what?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2014, 04:30:17 AM
Israel is responsible to protect her own civilians from Hamas rocket launchers. If that means killing the enemy in order to do it, then, so what?
Innocent women and children are Israel's enemy?  ???
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 04:38:53 AM
Frankly, any "Palestinian" is Amalek, which, yes, makes them Israel's enemy. I would encourage you to look up "Amalek" or "Amalekite". And please note that I do not call for complete elimination, but rather, simply population transfer.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 26, 2014, 05:12:04 AM
Amalekite... Oh yeah, that other ethnic group Jews killed all the children of. Is that what that means? "People whose children we shall kill?"
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 05:25:57 AM
Actually, the commandment is to kill every member of them. I am inclined to go with simply exiling them from the Land, and letting them go to any Arab country of their choice.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 26, 2014, 07:47:04 AM
The UK was regularly rocked by IRA bombs between the 60s to the 90s. My own town has a momument to the people killed by explosions deliberately planted in pubs. We didn't respond by levelling half of Dublin or expanding Northern Ireland ever southwards with the backing of bulldozers. We responded with a long, patient, police and intelligence mission, identifying those individuals responsible and arresting them (sometimes wrongly, but at least we could release the Birmingham Six, rather than scraping them out of body bags). We eventually came to a settlement and talks continue to this day.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2014, 08:04:08 AM
The UK was regularly rocked by IRA bombs between the 60s to the 90s. My own town has a momument to the people killed by explosions deliberately planted in pubs. We didn't respond by levelling half of Dublin or expanding Northern Ireland ever southwards with the backing of bulldozers. We responded with a long, patient, police and intelligence mission, identifying those individuals responsible and arresting them (sometimes wrongly, but at least we could release the Birmingham Six, rather than scraping them out of body bags). We eventually came to a settlement and talks continue to this day.
This isn't true at all. We didn't respond until the US decided to have a 'war on terror' and we pointed out they had been funding terror in the UK for 30 years (dickheads  ::)). At that point the IRA lost its funding and ceased to be. We had absolutely no solution at all before that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 11:10:17 AM
The IRA did NOT have as its intention (as per its charter) the death of all Englishmen everywhere. Hamas DOES have, as per its charter, the intention of causing the death of all Jews everywhere. Ergo, any Arab who supports Hamas in any way forfeits their right to life. Simple.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 26, 2014, 11:20:36 AM
The IRA did NOT have as its intention (as per its charter) the death of all Englishmen everywhere. Hamas DOES have, as per its charter, the intention of causing the death of all Jews everywhere. Ergo, any Arab who supports Hamas in any way forfeits their right to life. Simple.
Do you have a link to the charter?  I'd like to see unbiased evidence of this.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 12:06:24 PM
Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2014, 12:28:10 PM
If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2014, 12:30:23 PM
If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?
Because they like money more than foreigners.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 26, 2014, 12:49:29 PM
Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.
Found it.
It doesn't say that all Jews must be killed, only that they are enemies for (in some cases) good reasons.  It does state that Jews can live peacefully under Islam so long as they don't try to claim dominance over Islam. (Paraphrasing)

Though they are going to dissolve Israel.  Also, Hama's has politically denounced the charter as irrelevant and not being followed.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 26, 2014, 01:19:19 PM
The problem is that Yaakov thinks most of the world hates Israel because its Jewish, whereas most of the world actually hates Israel because of the shit it stirs up. This leads to overall Jewish hate. Basically, he suffers from "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome.


So in until 1947 people just hated Jews for being Jews, but then in 1948 everyone magically stopped hating Jews, and from then on focussed their anger on the world's only Jewish state (what a coincidence!), which was constantly stirring things up giving people an excuse to hate Jews. So really it's the Jews who are responsible for antisemitism!


There's no doubt that anti-zionism is a distinct political position from antisemitism. But you're kidding yourself if you think antisemitism is not a huge undercurrent in both anti-zionist and pro-Palestinian circles.


A really good example of this is the campaign to boycott Israel by pro-Palestinians. One might think that right from the off, people of white European ancestry would find the idea of boycotting the world's only Jewish state a bit uncomfortable - 'gee guys, isn't this power dynamic a bit too familiar, could we maybe think of something else?' - but apparently not. However, when the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas explicitly opposed the boycotting of Israeli goods and services (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/mahmoud-abbas-rejection-israel-boycott), so-called 'pro-Palestinians' were outraged! Hell, even Chomsky thinks boycotting Israel is going too far, but it seems some Europeans just can't resist the urge to get back to old habits and boycott the Jews! Even when it's not in the interest of (or supported by) the people they're supposedly trying to help.


I think it says worlds about the BDS movement that they are more attached to their tactics than their cause.


The UK was regularly rocked by IRA bombs between the 60s to the 90s. My own town has a momument to the people killed by explosions deliberately planted in pubs. We didn't respond by levelling half of Dublin or expanding Northern Ireland ever southwards with the backing of bulldozers. We responded with a long, patient, police and intelligence mission, identifying those individuals responsible and arresting them (sometimes wrongly, but at least we could release the Birmingham Six, rather than scraping them out of body bags). We eventually came to a settlement and talks continue to this day.


Chris, I'm no republican, but this is essentially nonsense. There was a military occupation of Northern Ireland, with over 27,000 British troops deployed in the province at the height of the conflict (for context, that is far more than were ever stationed in Afghanistan, and for extra context about 46,000 troops were used in the invasion of Iraq in 2003). The SAS were used aggressively to hunt down and ambush IRA members/units, there were numerous incidents of the state killing unarmed civilians, and last year it came to light that the British Army operated state-sanctioned death squads for 18 months in west Belfast (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24987465). And that's before you get to incidents like Bloody Sunday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)) and state collusion with Loyalist forces.


All in all, I don't think the conflict in Northern Ireland is necessarily the best place to launch a critique of Israeli policy from, especially as the conflict has its roots in the settlement of Ulster by British colonists, and the resulting displacement and subjugation of Catholics.


If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?


Those are very different situations. After all, even Egypt doesn't get on with Hamas. I think people need to realise that Hamas are not like Fatah, and that militancy and Jihad are central to the spirit and aims of their organisation. That being said, Israel hasn't exactly jumped over itself to draw up a peace deal with Fatah either, so it's only half of an excuse.


Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.
Found it.
It doesn't say that all Jews must be killed, only that they are enemies for (in some cases) good reasons.  It does state that Jews can live peacefully under Islam so long as they don't try to claim dominance over Islam. (Paraphrasing)

Though they are going to dissolve Israel.  Also, Hama's has politically denounced the charter as irrelevant and not being followed.


Yeah, but they also say it can't be changed for "internal reasons". It's hard to see what that could mean other than it having significant internal support, even if Hamas would like to gloss over it in public.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 26, 2014, 02:04:07 PM
Israel isn't and never has been "the jews." Israel is a country, one that only gets away with the shit they do because they have a cozy political tie with the US. When you start thinking about boycotting Israel and say "no, no, you shouldn't boycott 'the jews'" you've already missed the point. There is no reason to ever defend what Israel is doing and the country should not, nor ever, exist. It was the dumbest idea in the history of the UN to form an aggressive land-dominating state right in the middle of one of the most war-torn areas in the history of man.

Quote
So really it's the Jews who are responsible for antisemitism!

In some ways, it unfortunately is. For every x amount of normal Jews that shouldn't be hated, you'll have at least one Yaakov that gears everyone up for the hate train. It's easy to hate people like Yaakov and it's even easier to hate them because he is a Jew, but correlation isn't causation. Someone like Yaakov would look down on other people, regardless of whether he was born a Jew or not. It's just his vile personality.

There is no group in the world that doesn't have some hatred from another group. It's what people do. I happened to hate a country, and I can tell you right now it isn't because it is mostly Jewish.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 26, 2014, 03:23:06 PM
Israel isn't and never has been "the jews." Israel is a country, one that only gets away with the shit they do because they have a cozy political tie with the US. When you start thinking about boycotting Israel and say "no, no, you shouldn't boycott 'the jews'" you've already missed the point.


Israel is the world's only Jewish state. There is quite clearly a link between Israel and Jewish people. To deny this is ridiculous, and to claim that antisemitism does not motivate a great deal of anti-Israeli sentiment is also ridiculous. I'm not saying it's behind all of it, but a lot of people seem to want to imagine antisemitism away, and pretend that it can't possibly be part of the debate surrounding Israel. This is either naive, or worse, dishonest. It is ridiculous to claim, as you have done, that Israel is the cause of antisemitism, when antisemitism long predates the state of Israel.


There is no reason to ever defend what Israel is doing and the country should not, nor ever, exist. It was the dumbest idea in the history of the UN to form an aggressive land-dominating state right in the middle of one of the most war-torn areas in the history of man.


I don't have to defend what Israel is doing to think that boycotting the country is a bad idea, and to question the motives of westerners who support a boycott in spite of Palestinian insistence that there shouldn't be a boycott. I don't have to defend the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (and effective occupation of Gaza) to recognise that to say Israel "should not, nor ever, exist" is a statement as antithetical to the principle of self-determination as anything Yaakov has said.


Whether Israel should have been created or not is irrelevant. It was, and is thoroughly established. There are adults living in Israel whose families have been there for three generations. The whole problem is that Israelis have given themselves meaningful self-determination whilst denying it to the Palestinians. You're suggesting that instead of fixing the problem, it should be recreated in reverse. That is patently dumb.


In some ways, it unfortunately is.


I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well.



For every x amount of normal Jews that shouldn't be hated, you'll have at least one Yaakov that gears everyone up for the hate train. It's easy to hate people like Yaakov and it's even easier to hate them because he is a Jew, but correlation isn't causation. Someone like Yaakov would look down on other people, regardless of whether he was born a Jew or not. It's just his vile personality.

There is no group in the world that doesn't have some hatred from another group. It's what people do. I happened to hate a country, and I can tell you right now it isn't because it is mostly Jewish.


Cool, good for you. But a lot of people do hate Israel for reasons that are antisemitic in nature. For reference:


http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=682&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=337&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=598&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=326&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=140&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=516&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=696&cat=satire


I really could go on and on. Long story short, there is a lot of overlap between antisemitism and anti-Israeli sentiment. Read the Guardian article I posted. This is not just a few kooks on the internet. I'm not saying that you personally are antisemitic. But you're just plain wrong when you say it's not a factor.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 26, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
I never said it isn't a factor, but the majority of dislike for Israel is because of what it has done, not what it is.

I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well

Uhh, yeah. That is actually precisely what I am saying. Except not people, persons. For example, persons like Yaakov are responsible for Jewish stereotypes and hatred. It only takes one to sow hatred for thousands. One bad black person could result in a thousand good black people taking flak.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 26, 2014, 03:53:05 PM
This is a problem that a lot of debates where equality is a factor at all. One side argues that it has nothing to do with equality, while the other claims that it's got everything to do with it. The truth usually lies somewhere in between, but even when people are able to acknowledge it, the conversation usually gets derailed early on.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 26, 2014, 04:44:34 PM
Shouldn't the Israeli government be aware that their actions might lead to negative repercussions for Jews elsewhere? Maybe they could refrain from blowing shit up and breaking international law.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 26, 2014, 07:12:50 PM
Shouldn't the Israeli government be aware that their actions might lead to negative repercussions for Jews elsewhere? Maybe they could refrain from blowing shit up and breaking international law.
That would only make sense if they cared about Jews elsewhere, or anywhere for that matter.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2014, 09:23:48 PM
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 26, 2014, 09:40:56 PM
Arabs are like dirty human cockroaches. You can try to stamp them out but they will always return. They are also remarkably tolerant to nukes and radiation. The only way to kill them is with one's bare hands.


You can also leave them to their own devices and they will all end up killing each other, but this could take thousands of years.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 26, 2014, 10:20:20 PM
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2014, 10:43:20 PM
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth
All our cities with Asians in them are like that.
Oxford (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/five-men-oxford-paedophile-ring-4727555)
Derby (http://derbypatriot.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/derby-asian-paedophile-gang-leaders.html)
Rochdale (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/09/rochdale-child-sex-ring-jailed)
Bradford (http://muslimrapewave.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/another-muslim-paedophile-ring-exposed-in-bradford/)
Leeds (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344218/Asian-sex-gangs-Culture-silence-allows-grooming-white-girls-fear-racist.html)
High Wycombe (http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1190331.html)

Of course it would be racist to suggest Arabs are have a significantly high paedophile tendency. ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 26, 2014, 10:51:19 PM
The news reports say that the perpetrators were mainly of Pakistani heritage, not Arabs.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2014, 10:52:47 PM
Its all the same place. >:(
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 27, 2014, 12:40:55 AM
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth
All our cities with Asians in them are like that.
Oxford (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/five-men-oxford-paedophile-ring-4727555)
Derby (http://derbypatriot.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/derby-asian-paedophile-gang-leaders.html)
Rochdale (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/09/rochdale-child-sex-ring-jailed)
Bradford (http://muslimrapewave.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/another-muslim-paedophile-ring-exposed-in-bradford/)
Leeds (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344218/Asian-sex-gangs-Culture-silence-allows-grooming-white-girls-fear-racist.html)
High Wycombe (http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1190331.html)

Of course it would be racist to suggest Arabs are have a significantly high paedophile tendency. ::)

Correction: it would be racist to suggest this without a greater context and some sort of statistical analysis.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 27, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
Also why do they soup their cars up so much, it's weird, also I don't care if you can do 120 in a 30.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 04:05:08 AM
What it ultimately comes down to is the following: Lord Wilimore has it correct. ISRAEL EXISTS. You can't make it unexist. And Jews have a claim to the land, they can prove continuous presence there, for 4500 years. It isn't a question of whether a God gave them land. Ok. Let's say God doesn't exist. The fact is, persons related to modern Jews by ethnic and religious ties (commonly called Hebrews and Israelites) have resided in that territory of the Levant for 4500 years, at various times ruling over it as an independent state.

Now, you can object to my personality all you want. I don't frankly give a rat's ass. But to undo Israel's existence, or to advocate for same, is simply to make yourself look like a schmuck. And to object to the way Israel fights wars, while not objecting to the way Hamas fights wars, is to be hypocritical at best, and deliberately stupid at worst. It requires a willful amount of unforgivable blindness and stupidity to think that way.

I might expect that out of a high school graduate. But a person who claims to be college educated should understand geopolitics better, and should understand ethics better. Their failure on both counts simply proves them to be a fool.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 04:44:57 AM
And if Jews can live so well under Islam, then why were 750,000 of them "invited" to leave Arab countries and migrate to Israel in 1948? Jews have lived about as well as Christians under Islam, paying the Jizya tax, converting to Islam, or being killed. The only difference is that at the same time in Europe their lot was even worse in many cases. Hardly a strong case for Islam. "We were assholes, were just were slightly less so than the Christians."
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on August 27, 2014, 09:56:53 AM
And if Jews can live so well under Islam, then why were 750,000 of them "invited" to leave Arab countries and migrate to Israel in 1948? Jews have lived about as well as Christians under Islam, paying the Jizya tax, converting to Islam, or being killed. The only difference is that at the same time in Europe their lot was even worse in many cases. Hardly a strong case for Islam. "We were assholes, were just were slightly less so than the Christians."
Have you considered the possibility that the Jews in general suck?  I mean, to have two (or more) different groups of people over thousands of years dislike Jews can't just be ignorant hate
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 11:27:58 AM
Have you ever considered the possibility that how a nation treats its Jews will tell you what kind of nation it is? Since Jews make up less than .02% of the world's population but have received a stunning 22% of the Nobel Prizes to date, I would suggest that you are making yourself look like a schmuck. Since if it weren't for us, neither Christianity or Islam could exist (both depend on the Hebrew Scriptures), I suggest you be a little more grateful, and less arrogant, you pompous ass.

Beyond that, you never considered that while Muslims were mistreating Jews, they were doing the same exact thing to Christians under their control. There were no Muslims under Christian control, so that point is moot (at least not many, lets put it that way).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on August 27, 2014, 12:19:10 PM
Do you fail most of your essays?  You make terribly incoherent arguments.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on August 27, 2014, 12:22:41 PM
Since if it weren't for us, neither Christianity or Islam could exist (both depend on the Hebrew Scriptures)

Isn't Islam terrible, though?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: beardo on August 27, 2014, 12:29:59 PM
It is.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 27, 2014, 02:09:04 PM
I never said it isn't a factor, but the majority of dislike for Israel is because of what it has done, not what it is.


Possibly, but I think it's weird how so many people want to pretend antisemitism has gone away in the west, or that it isn't widespread. A lot of people believe in conspiracy theories. A lot of conspiracies feature zionists and the arch-conspirators. Anti-zionism has been a pretext for antisemitism for well over a century at this point. This runs deep in our culture, and it didn't just vanish in 1945.


I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well

Uhh, yeah. That is actually precisely what I am saying. Except not people, persons. For example, persons like Yaakov are responsible for Jewish stereotypes and hatred. It only takes one to sow hatred for thousands. One bad black person could result in a thousand good black people taking flak.
[/quote]


Stereotyping is always the responsibility of the 'stereotyper', because they are the one taking the faults of an individual and wrongly applying them to everyone in their group. Someone of a given background being an asshole in whatever form is not sufficient reason to tar everyone from that background with the same brush.


Have you considered the possibility that the Jews in general suck?  I mean, to have two (or more) different groups of people over thousands of years dislike Jews can't just be ignorant hate


Black people, women... do I have to do this again?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 02:24:21 PM
Possibly, but I think it's weird how so many people want to pretend antisemitism has gone away in the west, or that it isn't widespread. A lot of people believe in conspiracy theories. A lot of conspiracies feature zionists and the arch-conspirators. Anti-zionism has been a pretext for antisemitism for well over a century at this point. This runs deep in our culture, and it didn't just vanish in 1945.

Well, I have an idea. To stop anti-zionism, Israel should stop murdering swathes of people and taking their land. If you want people to like you, do things people like. You can't do whatever the hell you want, then complain because people don't like you for doing it, and you sure as hell can't patsy it onto "well they're just racist". If they can stop destroying their surroundings for a bit, maybe then the people who hate them because they do terrible things will die off and you'll be left with the people who hate them because racism.

Stereotyping is always the responsibility of the 'stereotyper', because they are the one taking the faults of an individual and wrongly applying them to everyone in their group. Someone of a given background being an asshole in whatever form is not sufficient reason to tar everyone from that background with the same brush.

It would help if the group as a whole ousted the bad nuts. I'm not sure how crazy Yaakov is in his own life (or even if he is just an elaborate troll) but it seems like if a Jew such as him existed, whatever radical synagogue he attends would be denounced and disowned.

Furthermore stereotyping is a basic human psychological event. You can try to stomp it out, but there is no "un-learning" it. Your brain will always try to put things into neat little boxes because that is what it is programmed to do. You can only stop the events you are fully aware of and I guarantee there is no one on this planet that can stop every single one of them. Instead of trying to stop that you should probably concern yourself with stopping the bad apples from ruining the whole bunch. It's just like when you said my idea to make Israel unexist is dumb. Yeah, it is, but your "don't stereotype" idea is just the same kind of idealism.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 27, 2014, 02:32:23 PM
Well, I have an idea. To stop anti-zionism, Israel should stop murdering swathes of people and taking their land. If you want people to like you, do things people like. You can't do whatever the hell you want, then complain because people don't like you for doing it, and you sure as hell can't patsy it onto "well they're just racist". If they can stop destroying their surroundings for a bit, maybe then the people who hate them because they do terrible things will die off and you'll be left with the people who hate them because racism.


Yes, this will undoubtedly stop anti-Zionism, which does not in any way predate the state of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

And Hitler etc.


It would help if the group as a whole ousted the bad nuts. I'm not sure how crazy Yaakov is in his own life (or even if he is just an elaborate troll) but it seems like if a Jew such as him existed, whatever radical synagogue he attends would be denounced and disowned.

Furthermore stereotyping is a basic human psychological event. You can try to stomp it out, but there is no "un-learning" it. Your brain will always try to put things into neat little boxes because that is what it is programmed to do. You can only stop the events you are fully aware of and I guarantee there is no one on this planet that can stop every single one of them. Instead of trying to stop that you should probably concern yourself with stopping the bad apples from ruining the whole bunch. It's just like when you said my idea to make Israel unexist is dumb. Yeah, it is, but your "don't stereotype" idea is just the same kind of idealism.


I'm not saying it can be prevented, but we can still apportion blame appropriately. I don't think we'll ever prevent all rape, but doesn't imply it's the vitim's fault rather than the rapist's. I'm not talking about an idealist post-racial world, but apportioning blame correctly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
Yes, this will undoubtedly stop anti-Zionism, which does not in any way predate the state of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

And Hitler etc.

Yes, the idea that Jews own a piece of land "because we were like, totally there a long time ago" does generate quite a bit of hatred. Maybe they should have stopped coveting other people's lands.


I'm not saying it can be prevented, but we can still apportion blame appropriately. I don't think we'll ever prevent all rape, but doesn't imply it's the vitim's fault rather than the rapist's. I'm not talking about an idealist post-racial world, but apportioning blame correctly.

It only makes sense that both sides take preventative measures to solve the problem. Playing the blame game does literally nothing.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 27, 2014, 02:49:40 PM
Yes, the idea that Jews own a piece of land "because we were like, totally there a long time ago" does generate quite a bit of hatred. Maybe they should have stopped coveting other people's lands.


Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Europeans and Arabs were anti-zionist is because they "coveted other people's lands"? Really?


It only makes sense that both sides take preventative measures to solve the problem. Playing the blame game does literally nothing.


Uh, but you are playing the blame game. Just really badly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 02:50:55 PM
I would suggest that Arabs grow up. They have 22 countries they can choose to call home, 21 of which are majority Muslim, and one of which is mixed confessionalism (Lebanon). Israel is the only Jewish State on the planet, and they allow for freedom of religion within the State. Grow up, put on your fucking big boy pants, and learn to accept the fait accompli, welcome to the real world.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 03:07:07 PM
Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Europeans and Arabs were anti-zionist is because they "coveted other people's lands"? Really?

Yes.

Uh, but you are playing the blame game. Just really badly.

Really? Where? Because I've done nothing but suggest ways for Jews to help themselves in a non-violent manner, rather than yelling at or killing everyone who dislikes them. Is this all you have left, Wilmore? I've been more than appropriate to your poisonous attitude these past few pages.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 03:09:11 PM
They try to kill us, we kill them first. That is how any country would handle including your own.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 03:11:38 PM
They try to kill us, we kill them first. That is how any country would handle including your own.

Israel's citizens chose to move onto land knowing they'd be surrounded by people who want to kill them (funnily enough, the very same people who owned the land Israel moved onto). If that isn't asking for a fight, I don't know what is. Anything that has happened to Israel thus far is a result of Israel being too stupid to resolve the situation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 03:16:39 PM
Actually, no. The land they bought during the period of immigration to Ottoman Palestine was largely owned by absentee Ottoman landlords who largely lived in Turkey or Syria, and it was bought at often three to four times the market value, with understanding that the rights of the resident felahin would not be infringed. This was, for the most part, scrupulously observed by the Jewish owners. You really are out of touch, aren't you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 03:19:10 PM
Beyond that, you never considered that while Muslims were mistreating Jews, they were doing the same exact thing to Christians under their control. There were no Muslims under Christian control, so that point is moot (at least not many, lets put it that way).

What does this statement even mean? Are you talking about current events or historical events?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 03:19:43 PM
Actually, no. The land they bought during the period of immigration to Ottoman Palestine was largely owned by absentee Ottoman landlords who largely lived in Turkey or Syria, and it was bought at often three to four times the market value, with understanding that the rights of the resident felahin would not be infringed. This was, for the most part, scrupulously observed by the Jewish owners. You really are out of touch, aren't you?

Yes, the UN bought land carved out of the Ottoman Empire, in which most of the surrounding land and people was also part of. I'm not sure what your problem is, or why you're trying to be condescending when you're not even intelligent enough to be correct. Also, at the time of the land purchases, no one made mention that the UN intended to move a shitload of Jews onto it. This further angered the surrounding populace.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 03:22:41 PM
Perhaps you need to observe tenses better. I meant historically. Although most Muslim lands still treat their minorities like shit. And its clear that you, IRUSH, are the idiot. I am speaking before the useless UN existed. We're talking at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. You seriously need to go read a little history. After that, perhaps you can come back and have a halfway intelligent conversation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 03:25:40 PM
Perhaps you need to observe tenses better. I meant historically. Although most Muslim lands still treat their minorities like shit. And its clear that you, IRUSH, are the idiot. I am speaking before the useless UN existed. We're talking at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. You seriously need to go read a little history. After that, perhaps you can come back and have a halfway intelligent conversation.

You've resorted to dodging the discussion now. I'm sure you'll start it back up again after some Wikipedia adventures. Don't worry, I'll wait.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
Perhaps you need to observe tenses better. I meant historically. Although most Muslim lands still treat their minorities like shit. And its clear that you, IRUSH, are the idiot. I am speaking before the useless UN existed. We're talking at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. You seriously need to go read a little history. After that, perhaps you can come back and have a halfway intelligent conversation.

If you mean historically, then you'd know that millions of Muslims were under Christian control as part of either British, French or other European colony. I figured a history student might know about stuff like that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 03:41:23 PM
I'm not the one who needs Wikipedia. That would be you. To use a Muslim quote. Cite your proof if you have any. The fact is that during the Jewish emigration to "Palestine" at the end of the 19th Century and the beginning of the 20th, Jews needed land. So, they bought it directly from the owners thereof, who were largely absentee landlords living in Syria or Turkey. They did this at often three or four times the market rate, and they did so with the understanding that the rights of the resident felahin would not be infringed. For the most part, that was respected.

If you want to look the matter up, feel free. I don't have to. The burden of proof is on you, not me. And the felahin could have bought the land themselves. Why didn't they? Because they were poor, uneducated, and stupid, perhaps? As "Palestinians" have repeatedly shown themselves to be ever since we started dealing with them in the late 19th Century.

What I am going to say will be VERY politically incorrect. And it doesn't apply to all Arabs, but ONLY to "Palestinians". Let's face it people. They are hated by EVERYONE. Even other Arabs think they are the scum of the Arab world. Only the latest models can talk. The rest of them are just one step up from the lower primates, still swinging from their tails (or kafeiya, as the case may be).

This is the ultimate reason that even other Arabs want nothing to do with them. The only purpose they serve is to make Israel look bad. Arabs are allowed to use "Palestinians" for that. If they can be used to paint Israel as the bad guy, well, they will take advantage of them, but they will never actually HELP the poor bastards, because in their hearts, the rest of the Arab world knows what I know: "Palestinians" are the lowest human on Earth. No one wants them anywhere in polite company. They are probably the only group of people, along with Jews and Gypsies, who are so universally despised. But in this case its actually warranted.

I mean, a perfect example. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, leaving a fully functioning horticultural industry. So, Hamas took over. One of the first things they did was destroy the green houses and other improvements so they could use the implements for weapons. How much more savage can you get?   

I was talking historically as in when Christians were under Muslim control like, Crusade time period. You are right if you come forward several centuries, of course. I wasn't referring to the time when Europe colonised three quarters of the world.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 27, 2014, 03:58:43 PM
Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Europeans and Arabs were anti-zionist is because they "coveted other people's lands"? Really?

Yes.


But that was and is something Europeans were and are far more guilty of. So that makes no sense.


Uh, but you are playing the blame game. Just really badly.

Really? Where?
[/quote]


When you said Jews and other minorities were responsible for the stereotyping directed at them. That is what 'to blame' means. Please read over your previous posts.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 04:04:46 PM
But that was and is something Europeans were and are far more guilty of. So that makes no sense.

I think you will find most of Europe's exploits into the middle east where at the behest of Jews. The Bank of England was owned by the Rothschilds for 250 years and the 'knights' that owned banks before that were Jews too. The Crusades was all about banking and behind it all, the Jews. They were single handedly responsible for Britain having an empire and they loaned all the money for all the wars. Including the Napoleonic wars where they funded both bloody sides!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 04:09:59 PM
Of course, you forget that Christian states of the period allowed Jews to engage in the buying and selling of small obects (pots, pans, and the like), and money lending. It was deemed illegal for a Christian to lend money to another Christian at interest, due to the prohibition in Leviticus, but Jews were permitted to do it, since Christians didn't believe they possessed souls. This restriction was maintained in many regions for up to 500 years. Give somebody two legal professions he can do for half a millenium, he's probably going to be pretty good at both. Idiot.

The reason Jews were allowed to do it at all is because it needed to be done. Christians recognised that to advance from feudalism to capitalism, money lending would be necessary.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 04:18:48 PM
Why do you keep punctuating every post with 'idiot'? I'm hardly an idiot. Despite my professional background being Aerospace engineering, I'd wager I have a better grasp of history than most history students.

And you are correct about the Jews, not having souls. They don't have them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 10:58:34 PM
Idiot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 28, 2014, 01:14:55 AM
Is this when a thread should be locked?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on August 28, 2014, 01:43:23 AM
Is this when a thread should be locked?

If you have to ask then you know the answer.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 28, 2014, 03:01:51 AM
Not locked, just split and/or removal of the anti-muslim and Jewish shit posting.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 03:06:44 AM
Only "Palestinians" could agree to the same exact cease-fire that they had refused weeks ago, after watching 2,100 of their people die, and call it a victory. These people are truly, without a doubt, at least in leadership, the dumbest, sorriest ass fuckers on earth.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 28, 2014, 03:12:20 AM
Only "Palestinians" could agree to the same exact cease-fire that they had refused weeks ago, after watching 2,100 of their people die, and call it a victory. These people are truly, without a doubt, at least in leadership, the dumbest, sorriest ass fuckers on earth.

Take this shit to your thread.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 03:18:54 AM
It fits the thread, as it is part of the geopolitics of the Mddle East.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 28, 2014, 03:24:08 AM
Except ISIS isn't going after Israel, yet.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 03:26:18 AM
Nor are they likely to. They are many things, but stupid is not apparently one of them. They are no contest for armed Israeli troops, or a nation armed with nukes. Goodbye Mosul. Hello, if Israel did have to use them, you might even find the rest of the Middle East breathing a sigh of collective relief.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 28, 2014, 04:10:11 AM
It fits the thread, as it is part of the geopolitics of the Mddle East.

The thread title is 'ISIS and the Middle East', not 'Racist jew ramblings'. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with ISIS.

Again, piss off. You have your own thread for that garbage. Take it there.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 28, 2014, 05:27:01 AM
A pretty good run down of ISIS, their current state, and their prospects, from a military perspective:

https://www.ctc.usma.edu/v2/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/CTCSentinel-Vol7Iss8.pdf

Basic overview:

Quote
The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) has the world on edge. Since its nadir in the spring of 2010, ISIL is considered to have evolved from a terrorist group on-the-ropes to “a full-blown army,” in the words of U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Brett McGurk. An analysis of ISIL’s recent military accomplishments is difficult due to the lack of confirmed facts about much of what has transpired in Iraq, particularly during the hectic months since the collapse of federal security forces in Mosul on June 10, 2014. Nevertheless, using a range of case studies from the Iraqi side of ISIL’s area of operations, this article explores what is currently known about the movement from a military standpoint.

If ISIL is an army, what kind of army is it and what are its weaknesses? This article finds that ISIL is a military power mostly because of the weakness and unpreparedness of its enemies. Lengthy shaping of the battlefield, surprise and mobility made its recent successes possible, but all these factors are diminishing. As a defensive force, ISIL may struggle to hold terrain if it is attacked simultaneously at multiple points or if its auxiliary allies begin to defect.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: MountainDrew on August 28, 2014, 02:12:00 PM
Although I know it wouldn't be totally popular among the American people we simply could just go back to Iraq and fight the good fight. It was fairly obvious something like this would happen. 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:21:20 PM
Mountain, I am inclined to agree. America hasn't known how to fight a real war since 1945. In WWII, you kicked some ass and took some names. We were not apologetic to Germany or Japan for the number of people we had to kill to get the bastards to surrender. We did what we had to do. If that meant bombing whole cities until they were willing to submit, that is what it meant. Now, we fight wars like they are kiddie fights on the play field, and God forbid the teacher finds out. We need to go to Iraq and turn, AT LEAST the part where ISIL is active, into melted slag. The same thing goes for Syria. And frankly, the entire Middle East. If you challenge the USA in any way, you should be reduced to the Stone Age.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 28, 2014, 02:25:51 PM
As long as we include Israel in the melting of the middle east, I'm in.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: MountainDrew on August 28, 2014, 02:35:23 PM
Indeed. Why can't we just finish a war properly and pound the enemy into dust or surrender? Although I will admit doing so in the middle east isn't as easy as dealing with equally industrialized nations. Kinda hard to eliminate an enemy you have trouble distinguishing from the local population. Our efforts in stabilizing the middle east are completely in vain if the leaders aren't competent enough to squash out there own problems.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 28, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
Indeed. Why can't we just finish a war properly and pound the enemy into dust or surrender? Although I will admit doing so in the middle east isn't as easy as dealing with equally industrialized nations. Kinda hard to eliminate an enemy you have trouble distinguishing from the local population. Our efforts in stabilizing the middle east are completely in vain if the leaders aren't competent enough to squash out there own problems.
Their leaders are brilliant at it. The problem is the US keeps removing their leaders. Deliberately. To create instability and sell arms. 'Regime change' they call it or 'Arab Spring'.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:47:30 PM
Except, Thork, that Israel is the only friend, reliable one, at least, that we have in the Middle East, as well as being the only truly democratic state there. Your stupidity at failing to realise that is just that, YOUR STUPIDITY, not Israel's fault, or that of the USA. Mountain, I am inclined to agree. The US would simply have to declare entire groups, like Hamas, ISIL, and, in another part of the world (Africa), Boko Haram, to be red lines. If you belonged to those groups in in any capacity, you would be reduced to slag. We would have to do that all over the world, declare some groups on the "Most Wanted for Destruction" and go after the bastards. The USA would have to be on a permanent war footing, as would the entire Western World, including Israel, Britain, France, etc.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Sean on August 28, 2014, 02:51:34 PM
The US could decimate them send in all the troops wegot got afull on ground war DDay style
 
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on August 28, 2014, 02:52:20 PM
Except, Thork, that Israel is the only friend, reliable one, at least, that we have in the Middle East, as well as being the only truly democratic state there.
We don't need Israel as a friend. It doesn't do anything for us. It just has its greedy Jewish hand out asking for more money to defend against its neighbours.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 28, 2014, 02:53:13 PM
Isn't the IS opposed to other terrorist groups like Hamas anyway? Just let them fight it out and mop up the survivors.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:59:31 PM
THORK, grow up. Sean, its not QUITE that easy. These groups, as shitty as they may be, are not just the kind that you can send troops in after. it will take more than that. Mountain is right. It is hard to tell the difference between them and the locals. Frankly, on a personal level, I don't care how many Arabs we kill. The more the merrier. But that is not generally how the world thinks today. I would say you would have to fight at least like WWII, though, where you don't target civilians deliberately, but you are aware that you are going to lose quite a few.

Thork, if it weren't for Israel, we would have to have a SIGNIFICANT military presence there, one that would cost a huge amount of money (more than it does to assist Israel), and likely a huge amount of lives lost each year. Remember the Marine compound in Lebanon? Imagine that every year times about 4. Schmuck. Just looking at it from a pragmatic point of view, it pays to keep Israel secure. The fact that you can't see that makes you an idiot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: MountainDrew on August 28, 2014, 03:01:22 PM
Isn't the IS opposed to other terrorist groups like Hamas anyway? Just let them fight it out and mop up the survivors.

Waiting to do that could take decades. With entire populaces to recruit it would never end. It's like having five different civil wars going on at once in the same area. We need to put an end to the terrorist ideal once and for all. No more pussyfooting around.

Except, Thork, that Israel is the only friend, reliable one, at least, that we have in the Middle East, as well as being the only truly democratic state there. Your stupidity at failing to realise that is just that, YOUR STUPIDITY, not Israel's fault, or that of the USA. Mountain, I am inclined to agree. The US would simply have to declare entire groups, like Hamas, ISIL, and, in another part of the world (Africa), Boko Haram, to be red lines. If you belonged to those groups in in any capacity, you would be reduced to slag. We would have to do that all over the world, declare some groups on the "Most Wanted for Destruction" and go after the bastards. The USA would have to be on a permanent war footing, as would the entire Western World, including Israel, Britain, France, etc.

Indeed.  More ground support from allied nations would definitely help. Just it them from different fronts.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 28, 2014, 04:00:29 PM
Mountain, I am inclined to agree. America hasn't known how to fight a real war since 1945. In WWII, you kicked some ass and took some names. We were not apologetic to Germany or Japan for the number of people we had to kill to get the bastards to surrender. We did what we had to do. If that meant bombing whole cities until they were willing to submit, that is what it meant. Now, we fight wars like they are kiddie fights on the play field, and God forbid the teacher finds out. We need to go to Iraq and turn, AT LEAST the part where ISIL is active, into melted slag. The same thing goes for Syria. And frankly, the entire Middle East. If you challenge the USA in any way, you should be reduced to the Stone Age.
Incorrect.  America fights wars like collateral damage is a bad thing.  How will bombing innocent civilians get ISIS to surrender?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 04:09:24 PM
Read further for clarification. I'm not suggesting we DELIBERATELY bomb civilians. I am suggesting we take away ISIL's ability to make war. If that means knowing that some civilians are going to turn into dogmeat, so be it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on August 29, 2014, 12:53:16 AM
Was rereading some Tolstoy.  This quote seems particularly apropos:

Quote from: The Kingdom of God is Within You
"But even it be so," say the champions of the existing order of things, "still the suppression of government violence can only be possible and desirable when all men have become Christians. So long as among people nominally Christians there are unchristian wicked men, who for the gratification of their own lusts are ready to do harm to others, the suppression of government authority, far from being a blessing to others, would only increase their miseries. The suppression of the governmental type of society is not only undesirable so long as there is only a minority of true Christians; it would not even be desirable if the whole of a nation were Christians, but among and around them were still unchristian men of other nations. For these unchristian men would rob, outrage, and kill the Christians with impunity and would make their lives miserable. All that would result would be that the bad would oppress and outrage the good with impunity. And therefore the authority of government must not be suppressed until all the wicked and rapacious people in the world are extinct. And since this will either never be, or at least cannot be for a long time to come, in spite of the efforts of individual Christians to be independent of government authority, it ought to be maintained in the interests of the majority. The champions of government assert that without it the wicked will oppress and outrage the good, and that the power of the government enables the good to resist the wicked."

But in this assertion the champions of the existing order of things take for granted the proposition they want to prove. When they say that except for the government the bad would oppress the good, they take it for granted that the good are those who at the present time are in possession of power, and the bad are those who are in subjection to it. But this is just what wants proving.

[...]

"If the power of government is suppressed the more wicked will oppress the less wicked," say the champions of state authority. But when the Egyptians conquered the Jews, the Romans conquered the Greeks, and the Barbarians conquered the Romans, is it possible that all the conquerors were always better than those they conquered? And the same with the transitions of power within a state from one personage to another: Has the power always passed from a worse person to a better one? When Louis XVI was removed and Robespierre came to power, and afterward Napoleon - who ruled then, a better man or a worse? And when were better men in power, when the Versaillist party or when the Commune was in power? When Charles I was ruler, or when Cromwell? And when Peter III was Czar, or when he was killed and Catherine was Czarina in one-half of Russia and Pougachef ruled the other? Which was bad then, and which was good? All men who happen to be in authority assert that their authority is necessary to keep the bad from oppressing the good, assuming that they themselves are the good par excellence, who protect other good people from the bad.

But ruling means using force, and using force means doing to him to whom force is used, what he does not like, and what he who uses the force would certainly not like done to himself. Consequently, ruling means doing to others what we would not want them to do to us, that is, doing wrong.

To submit means to prefer suffering to using force. And to prefer suffering to using force means to be good, or at least less wicked than those who do to others what they would not like themselves.

It's important to note that when Tolstoy here describes someone as Christian, he isn't talking about a spiritual affiliation, but a moral philosophy.  Replace every instance 'Christian' with 'nonviolent person' or 'good person' or 'person who doesn't harm others' and you've got his meaning.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 29, 2014, 01:17:21 AM
I think his meaning is beside the point. The fact is that ISIL is a threat to international peace. So is every terrorist organisation. Any person who belongs to such a group forfeits their life, at least in my book, and so does anyone who tries to help them remain alive. So it is up to Western Civilisation once again to keep the world safe and kill off animals like ISIL, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda, Hamas, and so-forth. If they exist, they are to be completely eliminated. Not just silenced. Smashed.

Tolstoy was an idealist. There is no room for idealism in war. When you are fighting a just war, you do what you have to do. You kill until you get a surrender, and you keep killing until you force the enemy to do exactly what they are told. Until the point comes that you say "Jump!" and they only ask "How high?" and then jump, you kill them, and you keep killing them. I don't care how many of them you have to eliminate. They crucify dead bodies. They execute Seventh Graders (or maybe you missed that CNN story a few weeks back). Therefore, they do not deserve to live. Until they learn to be ground under  boot heels and be silent and obedient, they die, and should continue to die.

Other Muslims, if they wish to be left alone and secure in their persons and effects, should simply shut up, and learn from the experience of these animals. But I expect that most Muslim civilians would probably end up appreciating it. If they don't, and start any shit with us later, we go back, and do the same thing to them later. If that means we keep a permanent military presence in that part of the world, and about every ten years we just pound the shit out of the place, then so be it. Good way to ensure full employment. Reintroduce the draft, so you have a steady supply of soldiers, so there are plenty of positions back home in the factories and other workplaces, thus bringing down unemployment. It would maintain the military-industrial complex by which the economy is greased, which would maintain stability, as long as it did not get out of control.

So many benefits could be had from it. Grant it, we would lose lives, that is fundamental to the military, but welcome to real world. Shit happens.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on August 29, 2014, 03:43:27 AM
There's actually quite a few muslims fighting ISIS.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 29, 2014, 04:07:30 AM
Kill 'em all.  Let God/Allah sort them out.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 29, 2014, 07:52:56 AM
These guys are bad because they kill innocent people. The only way to fight a just war is o kill them, who cares if a few innocent people are killed in the process?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 29, 2014, 10:13:40 AM
Is it possible that people are overestimating the threat of IS? They are surrounded by enemies and unwilling to work with other Muslim terrorist groups because they seen them as apostates. They use their western recruits as cannon fodder which will presumably cause the flow of recruits to dry up eventually.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/28/western-jihadists-are-being-used-as-cannon-fodder-for-the-isis-leadership_n_5730510.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Maybe it's best to just support the Syrians, Kurds and Iraqi army with airstrikes and guns.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 29, 2014, 11:38:46 AM
Essentially, GHOST, that is what I mean. TERROR, you might have a point.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 29, 2014, 12:09:22 PM
Congratulations, as a self-declared terrorist I consider it perfectly justifiable to have you killed. If anyone else wants to keep riding to violence cycle, PM me and I'll send you an address.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 29, 2014, 02:03:31 PM
"It is better that 1000 innocent men die before 1 guilty man lives."


This sort of philosophy never backfires.


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 29, 2014, 02:12:34 PM
Genesis 18:16-33
New International Version (NIV)
Abraham Pleads for Sodom

    Abraham remained standing before the Lord. Then Abraham came near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will you then sweep away the place and not forgive it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”

    And the Lord said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.”

    Abraham answered, “Let me take it upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”

    And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”

    Again he spoke to him, “Suppose forty are found there.”

    He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.”

    Then he said, “Oh do not let the Lord be angry if I speak. Suppose thirty are found there.”

    He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.”

    He said, “Let me take it upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.”

    He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.”

    Then he said, “Oh do not let the Lord be angry if I speak just once more. Suppose ten are found there.”

    He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.”

    And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 29, 2014, 02:56:55 PM
Since the people in the area are doing nothing to fight ISIS, they are complicit in allowing it to become what it is. Unless they start rebelling against it, they are collateral damage. Shit happens.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on August 29, 2014, 03:08:39 PM
Would you rebel against ISIS? They bury people alive!

In other news, the UK terror threat level has just went up to Severe.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Sean on August 29, 2014, 03:09:25 PM
Yaakov is nuts. Let's solve the ISIS problem by killing all the Muslims!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on August 29, 2014, 05:33:51 PM
Since the people in the area are doing nothing to fight ISIS, they are complicit in allowing it to become what it is. Unless they start rebelling against it, they are collateral damage. Shit happens.
And if they do start rebelling, they're dog meat.  Looks like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 29, 2014, 06:13:51 PM
Is it possible that people are overestimating the threat of IS? They are surrounded by enemies and unwilling to work with other Muslim terrorist groups because they seen them as apostates. They use their western recruits as cannon fodder which will presumably cause the flow of recruits to dry up eventually.
It's not a very probable outcome, but if we don't respond promptly enough, they might eventually become The Ottomans 2.0, except with more violent beliefs and technology that makes mass genocide easy.

I think the question here shouldn't be "how much of a threat are they?" but rather "can we take chances and risk them becoming a threat over time?".
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 29, 2014, 06:52:37 PM
ISIS is a direct result of intervention in the middle east. I'm not so sure even more intervention is going to resolve the situation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on August 29, 2014, 09:00:04 PM
I dunno, this seems a tad more valid than the other ones. Proof of Weapons Of Mass Destruction was pretty hard to come by, but Proof Of ISIS is stacked rather high.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 30, 2014, 03:34:10 AM
ISIS is a direct result of intervention in the middle east. I'm not so sure even more intervention is going to resolve the situation.
Eventually we'll kill them off :^).

Also, sure, intervening in the first place was a cock-up, but now we're at a point of no return. Bush's "gawd told may to kill paypole" legacy shall live forevermore.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on August 30, 2014, 03:55:01 AM
Since the people in the area are doing nothing to fight ISIS, they are complicit in allowing it to become what it is. Unless they start rebelling against it, they are collateral damage. Shit happens.

I agree with this only if you agree to let us tie an Israeli baby to each bomb that gets dropped.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: fappenhosen on August 31, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
ISIS is a direct result of intervention in the middle east. I'm not so sure even more intervention is going to resolve the situation.

ISIS is a direct result of exiting Iraq and leaving a weak, distrusted sectarian government behind.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2014, 10:21:24 PM
ISIS is a direct result of exiting Iraq and leaving a weak, distrusted sectarian government behind.

So... you're agreeing, then?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 02, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/middleeast/steven-sotloff-isis-execution.html

BTW, please don't feed Yaakov here.  He has his own thread now, use that instead.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 08:10:23 PM
SADAAM, grow up. Its not my fault your an ass.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
And ISIS kills another American. But we don't have the balls to simply turn the bastards into melted slag.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 02, 2014, 08:48:15 PM
Still not bothered about the countless innocent victims who would die, eh?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
Not particularly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 02, 2014, 09:34:41 PM
Welp, we saw that coming. Wonder what the chances are of intelligence agencies finding these guys before more are executed?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 09:48:53 PM
Probably not high. The bastards know the terrain far better than we do. Short of bombing them to smithereens, they are GOING to evade pretty much everything we try to do. I mean, they may be assholes deserving of the absolute worst punishment (ie, being turned into melted slag), but they're NOT stupid.

Again, we need to learn some lessons from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Force them to surrender by simply bombing them out of existence until they do what the fuck they are told, when they are told, how they are told. Until the day comes that we say, "Jump!" and ISIS's only question is "How high?", they should be subject to continual assault. But one nuclear strike on their main base should do it. It worked with the Empire of Japan, it also ought to work with the so-called "Caliphate of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL). Ok, it took two strikes on Japan, but close enough.

While we are at it, it might be a good time to spread pork grease on Mecca and Medina if any other Muslims give us any grief, and advise them that the next step will be to bomb both cities into pulverised gravel if there is any more disobedience. Time for them to see how real wars are fought and won.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 02, 2014, 09:51:15 PM
Why don't they just use Google Earth to find out where they are? Then precision airstrike them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 02, 2014, 10:27:08 PM
Clearly IS are trying to provoke a response from the US, maybe it's best not to go RAAAAGHHHH! WE MUST HAVE VENGEANCE and try to be rational?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 02, 2014, 11:36:12 PM
Again, we need to learn some lessons from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
How is ISIS even remotely similar to Japan in WWII?

Force them to surrender by simply bombing them out of existence until they do what the fuck they are told, when they are told, how they are told.
How can you possibly bomb a country into the stone age, so to speak, when they aren't that far out of the stone age to begin with?  What sort of infrastructure would you target that doesn't affect innocent civilians more than the ISIS leaders?

But one nuclear strike on their main base should do it.
Where exactly is that main base?

It worked with the Empire of Japan, it also ought to work with the so-called "Caliphate of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL). Ok, it took two strikes on Japan, but close enough.
Again, how is ISIS (or ISIL) even remotely similar to WWII Japan?

While we are at it, it might be a good time to spread pork grease on Mecca and Medina if any other Muslims give us any grief, and advise them that the next step will be to bomb both cities into pulverised gravel if there is any more disobedience. Time for them to see how real wars are fought and won.
How does pissing off every single Muslim on the planet help our cause?  An eternal cycle of revenge begetting revenge sounds counterproductive to me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 03, 2014, 01:24:59 AM
Markjo pls
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 03, 2014, 01:30:31 AM
45 minute doco on the IS:

https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:17:33 AM
Don't you see? The point is to piss them off enough to get them to do something that would justify our turning the ME (except for Israel) into melted slag, @ least the ones fucking w/ us.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 03, 2014, 06:30:50 AM
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-of-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-911/

Feel the fear. Let it control you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 03, 2014, 09:20:20 AM
Lol. Unless they're brand new stealth airliners, they're gonna have trouble getting anywhere near western assets.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 10:34:32 AM
Don't you see? The point is to piss them off enough to get them to do something that would justify our turning the ME (except for Israel) into melted slag, @ least the ones fucking w/ us.

So basically the same tactic they use on Israel.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 03, 2014, 12:25:01 PM
Don't you see? The point is to piss them off enough to get them to do something that would justify our turning the ME (except for Israel) into melted slag, @ least the ones fucking w/ us.
So you want Israel to be surrounded by a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland?  ???
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 02:56:16 PM
Ok, so maybe turning them into slag is a little overdone. But using conventional weapons and turning them into dogmeat isn't.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 03, 2014, 03:24:50 PM
Which conventional weapon turns people into dogs?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 03, 2014, 03:26:00 PM
Dynamutt.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on September 03, 2014, 03:49:25 PM
AK-97


(read aloud hehe)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 03, 2014, 04:55:40 PM
Lol. Unless they're brand new stealth airliners, they're gonna have trouble getting anywhere near western assets.


B-but... you're supposed to be scared.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Tau on September 03, 2014, 05:10:11 PM
Don't you see? The point is to piss them off enough to get them to do something that would justify our turning the ME (except for Israel) into melted slag, @ least the ones fucking w/ us.

I still don't see why Israel should be immune to this theoretical cleansing. They're just as messed up as the rest of the area.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 05:45:08 PM
Let's see: Israel is surrounded by 22 Arab states. So, of these 23 states, let us examine a few things.

Israel is:

1. The only nation that allows total freedom of religion to all citizens residing within the state. All 22 others require that non-Muslims be in various ways subject to Shariah.

2. The only nation with a fully functioning democracy. The other 22 are ruled by either (a) absolute (or near absolute) monarchs, (b) military men turned presidents, (c) men of some other royal title (such as emir), or (d) outright dictators calling themselves by various titles, usually "President" or "Prime Minister" who were put in power and are sustained there by the USA or other foreign governments.

3. Israel actually votes for their own leadership. The so-called "vote" that other countries give to their citizens matters little, since their governments can always override it. Try overriding the will of the King in Saudi Arabia (talk about arrogant; the bastards named the country after themselves).

Add to that the fact that Muslims have, as their stated goal in the Qur'an, the desire to subject all Christians and Jews to the Jizya tax, conversion, or death.

Israel is by no means perfect, and I never claimed it was. But they are human beings. The Arabs around them, not so much. Only the latest models can talk. The older variety are still swinging from their tails.

It should be noted that Lebanon is often cited by the anti-Israel crowd. Lebanon is a fucking mess. Its multi-confessional constitution guaranteeing that the President is a Christian, the Prime Minister one variety of Muslim, the Deputy Prime Minister another, the Parliament has so many Christians, Shias, and Sunnis in it, etc, has led to absolute chaos since 1975. The PLO presence didn't help any. Nor did the Syrian. But, you see my point.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 03, 2014, 05:56:24 PM
Still not bothered about the countless innocent victims who would die, eh?
He already made it clear that he'd like for the UN to dissolve and for America (with its best buddy Israel) to wage war on literally the entire world. Why would he care about innocent victims?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 03, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
I thought the post might catch him out. Perhaps under that crazy evil Zionist outer shell lies a real person with empathy for his fellow beings.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 06:25:30 PM
I have empathy for people who don't want to fuck up my day just because I'm a Jew. Muslims have a desire to fuck up my day because I am a Jew. Ergo, I have no empathy for them. Ergo, if we have to pound them into primordial ooze, I am not going to feel particularly bad about it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 03, 2014, 06:28:13 PM
I have empathy for people who don't want to fuck up my day just because I'm a Jew. Muslims have a desire to fuck up my day because I am a Jew. Ergo, I have no empathy for them. Ergo, if we have to pound them into primordial ooze, I am not going to feel particularly bad about it.

What about the innocent people who don't care if you're a Jew caught in the crossfire?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 06:32:39 PM
Those so-called "innocent people" are not innocent as long as they subscribe to the teachings of the Qur'an that obligates me to paying the Jizya tax, converting, or dying. So fuck them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 03, 2014, 06:34:14 PM
Those so-called "innocent people" are not innocent as long as they subscribe to the teachings of the Qur'an that obligates me to paying the Jizya tax, converting, or dying. So fuck them.

So you're trolling then.

Good to know.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 03, 2014, 07:30:40 PM
Ok, so maybe turning them into slag is a little overdone. But using conventional weapons and turning them into dogmeat isn't.
Okay, I guess that we're starting to make progress.  Now, if we can get you to agree that punishing all Muslims is overdoing it but just punishing the violent radicals and militants isn't.

I have empathy for people who don't want to fuck up my day just because I'm a Jew. Muslims have a desire to fuck up my day because I am a Jew.
Did you ever consider that maybe they want to fuck up your day because you're being an jerk about being a Jew.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 03, 2014, 07:40:44 PM
Can we all stop feeding Yaakov now? He isn't even fun anymore. Let his poster make a new, exciting character troll.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2014, 08:54:02 PM
Can we all stop feeding Yaakov now? He isn't even fun anymore. Let his poster make a new, exciting character troll.

Perhaps a radical Jainist?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 09:22:09 PM
A radical Jainist? That would be interesting! I refuse to, well, kill anything beyond all anything? I know Gandhi was influenced by Jainist ideals. If it were practical, it would be admirable and worthy of emulation. I mean, seriously, whatever you may think of me, I actually consider Gandhi to be on my list of most admired humans of the last, well, probably 2,000 years or so. I put him up there with Christ because I'm not even sure if Christ existed, and I certainly don't accept that he is what the Christians say he is.

But seriously, radical Jainism? Now that is an idea...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 09:31:37 PM
It's a pretty funny idea. I think I'd like to see it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2014, 10:53:44 PM
A radical Jainist? That would be interesting! I refuse to, well, kill anything beyond all anything? I know Gandhi was influenced by Jainist ideals. If it were practical, it would be admirable and worthy of emulation. I mean, seriously, whatever you may think of me, I actually consider Gandhi to be on my list of most admired humans of the last, well, probably 2,000 years or so. I put him up there with Christ because I'm not even sure if Christ existed, and I certainly don't accept that he is what the Christians say he is.

But seriously, radical Jainism? Now that is an idea...

That's funny, Gandhi would find your ideology apalling.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 10:56:00 PM
I didn't say I subscribed to his philosophy of non-violence. As admirable as it is, it is unrealistic in the modern age. Incidentally, CNN tells us that ISIS has its main area of operation in and around the northeastern Syrian city of Raqqa. A few good carpet bombings of that area, then, ought to weaken it. Not destroy it, no, but at least put the fear of God into them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2014, 10:57:26 PM
I didn't say I subscribed to his philosophy of non-violence. As admirable as it is, it is unrealistic in the modern age. Incidentally, CNN tells us that ISIS has its main area of operation in and around the northeastern Syrian city of Raqqa. A few good carpet bombings of that area, then, ought to weaken it. Not destroy it, no, but at least put the fear of God into them.

There is only one god and Muhammed is his prophet.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 11:45:22 PM
I didn't say I subscribed to his philosophy of non-violence. As admirable as it is, it is unrealistic in the modern age. Incidentally, CNN tells us that ISIS has its main area of operation in and around the northeastern Syrian city of Raqqa. A few good carpet bombings of that area, then, ought to weaken it. Not destroy it, no, but at least put the fear of God into them.
Technically they are afraid of God.  Or his displeasure anyway.  I thought you spent time in a mosque?

Also, you do know that an idea is hard to kill and by doing such an act you basically become modern Nazi's right?  Just without the methodical genocide.  More like a crappy version.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 12:37:40 AM
Keep in mind that Gandhi was able to do what he did BECAUSE the British Empire recognised certain inalienable human rights in the person. Both Britain and America (descended from who else, Britain, of course) have done this. If Gandhi had tried that non-violence business in Chiang Kai-shek's China, or Stalin's Russia, or just about anywhere OTHER than in the British Empire, he'd have been shot within five minutes.

So, yes, all that non-violence business is admirable and all that, but let's face it, people, it very rarely works in the real world.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 10:12:54 AM
Keep in mind that Gandhi was able to do what he did BECAUSE the British Empire recognised certain inalienable human rights in the person. Both Britain and America (descended from who else, Britain, of course) have done this. If Gandhi had tried that non-violence business in Chiang Kai-shek's China, or Stalin's Russia, or just about anywhere OTHER than in the British Empire, he'd have been shot within five minutes.

So, yes, all that non-violence business is admirable and all that, but let's face it, people, it very rarely works in the real world.
Incorrect.
Since he posed no actual threat and was starving himself, shooting him would accomplish nothing.

If anything, shooting him would have likely incited a riot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 11:07:14 AM
He would not have even had time for his South African activity, let alone to getting his name out there wide enough to be successful at starving himself.  If he had tried to oppose ethnic policies in the USSR or China, he'd have been shot.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 04, 2014, 11:10:45 AM
I think we should round up and execute anyone with brown skin.

Oy vey, I'm such a Jew!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 11:18:12 AM
Given that it was a Reform Jewish Rabbi on one side of Martin Luther King marching on Selma, and the Episcopal Bishop of South Carolina on the other side, you just made yourself look like a schmuck. Asswipe.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 04, 2014, 12:27:47 PM
Yaakov, you're not very good at recognizing sarcasm, are you?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 09:56:03 PM
Since he posed no actual threat and was starving himself, shooting him would accomplish nothing.

He posed a threat because he put ideas into peoples heads. If I was Stalin I would have shot him.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 04:20:15 AM
Fapp, BINGO, thank you for playing!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 05, 2014, 05:58:46 PM
So some of the Brits fighting for IS are now having second thoughts and want to come back to the UK but are worried about being put in prison.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 05, 2014, 06:01:56 PM
So some of the Brits fighting for IS are now having second thoughts and want to come back to the UK but are worried about being put in prison.


If they are responsible for any crimes then they should be put in prison. They're criminals. "I've changed my mind" has never been a legitimate excuse for anything.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 05, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
Offering some kind of conditional amnesty might encourage others to desert the IS cause.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 05, 2014, 06:07:46 PM
Offering some kind of conditional amnesty might encourage others to desert the IS cause.

I don't think get out of jail free cards would set a good example. This could also be abused.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:12:52 PM
Any westerner who attempts to return to his nation of origin after having joined ISIS should be shot upon his return.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: The Terror on September 05, 2014, 06:15:25 PM
Hardly an incentive to desert or surrender.

Might as well stay in IS and fight to the death in that case.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 06:16:14 PM
Any westerner who attempts to return to his nation of origin after having joined ISIS should be shot upon his return.

Do you believe anybody deserves a fair trial, ever?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:35:48 PM
Trials serve a purpose only when there is actual doubt as to a person's guilt. If there is no doubt, or question as to the guilt or motive, simply ready the bullet, and save everyone some tax dollars.

As for motive to desert, I agree. I might be inclined to grant to someone something less than a bullet if they have not already observed or taken part in criminal acts against the people. Otherwise, ready the bullet and save us all the trouble, please.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 05, 2014, 06:39:48 PM
Yaakov is very wise. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 05, 2014, 08:39:26 PM
It's almost as if he's a troll just trying to provoke people by saying ridiculous things.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: fappenhosen on September 05, 2014, 09:08:04 PM
Trials serve a purpose only when there is actual doubt as to a person's guilt. If there is no doubt, or question as to the guilt or motive, simply ready the bullet, and save everyone some tax dollars.

Guilty until proven innocent. Sounds like ISIS speak to me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 09:45:04 PM
Trials serve a purpose only when there is actual doubt as to a person's guilt. If there is no doubt, or question as to the guilt or motive, simply ready the bullet, and save everyone some tax dollars.

How do you determine if there is doubt without a trial?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 02:21:18 AM
I agree, trials are necessary in all but the most blatant of cases. Someone who goes to fight for ISIS is one of those blatant cases, I think. If you leave for Syria or Iraq, and cannot explain everything you did there when you get back, then you have no business being there, and should be shot.

Ultimately, it comes down to the following: We need to pass laws forbidding Americans to even enter nations where terror groups are active without special permission from the Government. Anyone who does not HAVE that permission should be assumed to be cooperating with said terror group, and treated accordingly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 06, 2014, 02:37:03 AM
It's almost as if he's a troll just trying to provoke people by saying ridiculous things.
The scary thing is that I don't think he is.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 03:21:33 AM
It's almost as if he's a troll just trying to provoke people by saying ridiculous things.
The scary thing is that I don't think he is.

Don't be fooled. He's just especially good at what he does.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 06, 2014, 03:24:41 AM
Deserters should be put in witness protection*.

*publicly they are alive in hiding.  Behind the scenes they are tortured and then killed after they are useless.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 06, 2014, 03:37:17 AM
It's almost as if he's a troll just trying to provoke people by saying ridiculous things.

He may or may not be who he claims to be, and it doesn't matter. You don't need the superhuman observational powers of Saddamlock Holmessein to hypothesize that somebody who espouses extreme zionist views and chose the username "Yaakov ben Avraham" might be a fictional character. Maybe it's Oscar. Who cares? This place is full of fictional characters. Should we start ignoring our leader Tim Bishop? What about the most eminent living Flat Earth scientist of our generation? Characterization should only be ignored if it's genuinely disruptive, and the only example of that I can think of is EJ. Yaakov mostly stays in his own threads, and although his political views are anything but, his communication is mostly civil.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 03:57:32 AM
Well, thank you, Alexandyr. And what DID happen to EJ? And I admit, my political views are pretty radical. I don't deny that. I am not a troll in the slightest bit, and I do try to be at least vaguely civil.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 06, 2014, 03:59:08 AM
He's probably too focused on his scholarly pursuits to visit us.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 04:03:04 AM
Ah. I see. He was a strange one, that one was. Not that I can say that too loud, as I am sure many think the same about me. But I can at least spell (albeit in British-style) better than a Third Grader.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 04:18:53 AM
Well, thank you, Alexandyr. And what DID happen to EJ? And I admit, my political views are pretty radical. I don't deny that. I am not a troll in the slightest bit, and I do try to be at least vaguely civil.

This is an admission of guilt to me.

But I happen to agree with Alex. So TROLL ON!!!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 04:43:02 AM
Thanks VAUX. You can kiss my tukhis too. *GRIN* Did you find the answer to your question in the other thread? Its on Page 14.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 05:50:53 AM
Are you referring to this?

Those so-called "innocent people" are not innocent as long as they subscribe to the teachings of the Qur'an that obligates me to paying the Jizya tax, converting, or dying. So fuck them.

I'm finding it hard to find differences between you and ISIS at this point.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 05:56:22 AM
No, the following:

 QUOTE: "QUOTE: "Damn. 2 million people? No possible way Judaism could be wrong now.


Why don't such miracles and revelations happen in modern times? Has Yahweh abandoned us?"

I'm sorry! I forgot about that question. I shall try to answer it. Many people have asked themselves that. Why don't miracles of that nature occur today? Well, I can't say why they don't occur to non-Jews.

Here's the thing, Vauxhall. As a Jew, I know what God has commanded me, as a Jew, to do. I know what He has taught us, as our God, and we, as his People, to expect in our relationship with him. This not to say that I have direct telephone line to the Deity (boy, wouldn't that be nice). It is merely to say that the Jewish Bible contains within it all the revealed material that God has given to the People Israel. That material is what we NEED to know in order to please God, and to live up to our part of the Covenant. The Talmud and all that just explain the Bible. And God knows, the Talmud itself is 20 volumes long and takes up a HUGE amount of space on a bookshelf! And that is not the ONLY literature. There is so much that our Rabbis and other scholars have written trying to understand and probe and explain the Bible, and the Jewish Law, and Custom, and Jewish Life, and so-forth.

So why hasn't God caused miracles like that sort of thing to happen now? For us, the answer is simple: they are not necessary. As the Sages say: After Malachi, the Prophecy passed out of Israel. Now we live by what we have. We don't need more.

As for the non-Jews? I don't know. I don't know what God has taught them, or not taught them. I don't know what prophets or sages or wise ones he may have sent to them, although I expect that he did indeed send people. I am inclined to believe that men such as the Buddha, Mahavira, Gandhi, Confucius, and so-forth, were sent by God as Prophets to their own people, and that they taught them in ways that they could understand. But that is pure speculation on my part. I could be full of crap on that. I don't know.

I hope that answers your question. I apologise for not responding sooner." END QUOTE
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 06:59:29 AM
Firstly Yaakov, that was a different thread.

Secondly, it seems to me that now would be a perfect time for Yahweh to show His face again. The world is in need of one of His benevolent smites. There are radical Muslims in every country on God's great Earth, threatening war and slaughtering innocents (especially jn America, which is arguably the most important country) . They have strayed far from Yahweh's path, and I believe that showing Himself once more to the world would be hugely beneficial in bringing about world peace.

Could it be that Yahweh never really revealed Himself on Mt. Sinai? The Old Testament was written by man, and surely some of the desert-scribblings could be misinterpretations of Yahweh's great word. After all, there are no mentions of dinosaurs in the Old Testament when it seems obvious that there should be. I believe that Yahweh was just having a bad day that day and forgot to mention them, but others see it as a proof that the Book is not 100% accurate.

Do you believe that dinosaur's existed, Yaakov?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 06, 2014, 07:19:37 AM
It's almost as if he's a troll just trying to provoke people by saying ridiculous things.

He may or may not be who he claims to be, and it doesn't matter. You don't need the superhuman observational powers of Saddamlock Holmessein to hypothesize that somebody who espouses extreme zionist views and chose the username "Yaakov ben Avraham" might be a fictional character. Maybe it's Oscar. Who cares? This place is full of fictional characters. Should we start ignoring our leader Tim Bishop? What about the most eminent living Flat Earth scientist of our generation? Characterization should only be ignored if it's genuinely disruptive, and the only example of that I can think of is EJ. Yaakov mostly stays in his own threads, and although his political views are anything but, his communication is mostly civil.

This isn't his thread and often has nothing to do with him, Israel, or Judaism. If I had mod powers, I'd have deleted all of his rubbish from this thread ages ago. Or moved it. I don't care whether he's a troll or not, this thread isn't about muslim bashing.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 01:26:54 PM
VINDICTUS, grow up, act your age, and quit being so whiny. Jesus, who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

VAUXHALL, of course dinosaurs existed. The story of Creation, while accurate in its own way, was NOT intended to be scientific. The first 11 chapters of Genesis (at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of many scholarly persons, both Jewish and Christian) can be taken as Pre-history, legendary material. Although some of it may be literally true, a lot of it is clearly legendary material that is similar to other stuff you find in narrative stories throughout the Middle East.

I know the Rabbis of Blessed Memory had a way to adjust for the existence of dinosaurs, but I'd have to look it up to find out what it was, and those books are still packed. However, there WAS an explanation given to explain how the dinosaurs did indeed exist before Adam and Eve existed. I'll see what I can find. I am feeling better, but now my wife is ill, and I must tend to her, and continue to care for my own self to make sure we both get totally well. But in between that, I will TRY to learn more about the matter.

And again, I don't know WHY God does or does NOT appear to non-Jews. I do have an idea why he no longer appears to us, as I explained. And who knows, maybe, just maybe, he will deem it appropriate to return the prophecy to Israel.

There is certainty that at some time in the future, things WILL happen that involve Israel and the Jews. The return of the Jews to Israel, the Coming of Messiah (no, not Jesus, or any other god), the rebuilding of the Temple, the Battle of Armageddon, the bringing about of World Peace, etc, all have been foretold in our Scriptures. It WILL happen. Its merely a question of when.

So in that sense, you can say that the prophecy WILL return to Israel. Its just a matter of when.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 06, 2014, 03:36:32 PM
VINDICTUS, grow up, act your age, and quit being such a whiny little bastard. Jesus, who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

So civil.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 06, 2014, 04:52:24 PM
I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 07:06:52 PM
Comment above moderated to reflect a more civilsed tone. SADDAM has a point.

QUOTE: "I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES."

I'm not a troll, but IRUSH, if you consider this "steamrolling"  you really ARE a baby. Dear heavens, how did you ever survive college or grad school? One of my professors back in the day would have cleaned your clock. He was rough even on me. I mean, Dude, seriously, get some cajones, man!
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 06, 2014, 09:02:11 PM
I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES.

I win because I got him to insult me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 06, 2014, 09:20:57 PM
I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES.

I win because I got him to insult me.

Huh? You lose because you gave him the attention he wanted. Trolling 101: if someone replies, you've already won and your opponent has lost. The only way to stop a troll is to ignore them entirely. Victory is not in the method, it's in the result.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 06, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES.

I win because I got him to insult me.

Huh? You lose because you gave him the attention he wanted. Trolling 101: if someone replies, you've already won and your opponent has lost. The only way to stop a troll is to ignore them entirely. Victory is not in the method, it's in the result.

I've not been responding to him, but talking about him as if he weren't here.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I cannot believe a radical Jew stereotype troll is steamrolling each and every one of us. It is a sad time in FES.

I win because I got him to insult me.

Huh? You lose because you gave him the attention he wanted. Trolling 101: if someone replies, you've already won and your opponent has lost. The only way to stop a troll is to ignore them entirely. Victory is not in the method, it's in the result.

Victory is making him say funny things.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 06, 2014, 09:29:55 PM
I've not been responding to him, but talking about him as if he weren't here.

That's attention, though. Any form of attention will do. As long as he knows his character trolling riles you up, it'll continue.

Victory is making him say funny things.

His very purpose is to say funny things.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 06, 2014, 09:31:20 PM
I've not been responding to him, but talking about him as if he weren't here.

That's attention, though. Any form of attention will do. As long as he knows his character trolling riles you up, it'll continue.
 

I'm not sure 1 or 2 comments every 20 pages is enough to count as getting troll'd.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 09:31:29 PM
Victory is making him say funny things.

His very purpose is to say funny things.

In theory.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 06, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
I'm not sure 1 or 2 comments every 20 pages is enough to count as getting troll'd.

Any acknowledgement at all is getting trolled, just to a lesser degree. If I had some sort of Richter scale of trolling you'd maybe be at around 0.8, but that is still a non-zero number.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 11:09:01 PM
God, look at you two! You'd think that I was torturing you both! Grow up already! Especially you, VINDICTUS. You are a whiny little ass. At least IRUSH has interesting things to say.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
You know, I wonder where he got his name.  It's certainly weird looking to my American eyes.  Is it some kind of Hebrew or did he just randomly hit keys and call it a day?  What do you guys think?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 07, 2014, 02:23:50 AM
You know, I wonder where he got his name.  It's certainly weird looking to my American eyes.  Is it some kind of Hebrew or did he just randomly hit keys and call it a day?  What do you guys think?

I assume that he took Yaakov from Yakov Smirnoff. And the rest of it is just made up Jew sounding stuff.

There's a very small possibility that that is indeed his real name. Which would be stupid on many levels.

Other parts of his name could be a bastardization of Abraham ben Moses ben Maimo.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 02:26:28 AM
It's my Hebrew name. I won't tell you my secular name for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 07, 2014, 02:44:49 AM
You know, I wonder where he got his name.  It's certainly weird looking to my American eyes.  Is it some kind of Hebrew or did he just randomly hit keys and call it a day?  What do you guys think?

It probably just comes down to it being an incredibly stereotypically Jewish name.  He might as well have called himself Rabbi Emmanuel "Jew" Abraham Jewstein Israelberg.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 03:42:17 AM
My father's name was Avraham. He named me Ya'akov. Thus Ya'akov ben Avraham or literally, "Jacob son of Abraham". As I do recall, when signing up, the sign-in refused to take apostrophes. IF I lived in Israel (I don't) this would be my legal name. But my secular name is my legal name is this country (the USA). There are several different ways of transliterating the name "Ya'akov". Yakov. Yaakov. Yaacov, are 4 of them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on September 07, 2014, 07:17:06 AM
I don't see why we're arguing about his name. It's clearly a Hebrew name, so I'm not sure why everyone's sitting around going, 'I don't know anything about Hebrew, but that doesn't look like Hebrew to me.'
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 07:34:05 AM
I just wish this thread was actually about ISIS.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on September 07, 2014, 07:39:20 AM
This link (http://www.isstracker.com/) tracks them in real-time
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 07:45:08 AM
That alone was more humorous than the last 20 pages of trolling.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 07, 2014, 03:44:09 PM
ISIS exists because war breeds radicalism. It's the same reason there are still warlords in Africa. It's also a pretty basic chapter in Niccolo Machiavelli's The Prince when he talks about war being a career. If war is all you know, then war is all you will do.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 03:55:50 PM
IRUSH, you're quite correct, of course. God, its been a LONG time since I've read The Prince.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
ISIS exists because war breeds radicalism. It's the same reason there are still warlords in Africa. It's also a pretty basic chapter in Niccolo Machiavelli's The Prince when he talks about war being a career. If war is all you know, then war is all you will do.

It's a bit more complicated than that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 07, 2014, 08:11:14 PM
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Not really. The whole situation stems from war, even Islam itself is a philosophy that results from extreme turmoil in the region. Religions are often shaped by the area they originate from, not the opposite. This is why if you read the Old Testament in the Bible and then read the New Testament it almost appears to be two separate gods. The Old testament god is similar to Islam's Allah in that they are both war gods. The New Testament god on the other hand was more peaceful (despite many wars brought about by Christianity, most of the New Testaments teaching revolve around peaceful solution to problems).

Thus even though ISIS could be described as a religious radical state, really they would do what they do regardless of religion. Man shapes religion, not the other way around.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 08:33:11 PM
It really depends on how you read the Old Testament. The very early part of it has God being a pretty brutal thunder god, but by the time you get to the later Prophets, he's a much more peaceful, loving deity. The whole business about turning swords into pruning hooks and all that is from Isaiah. And the God of Israel sent Jonah to Nineveh of all places to preach his word, which was heard, to the point that Jonah was pissed when God saved them, and had to be taught a rather sharp lesson by this universal God. There are many other examples I could mention.

So there was an evolution in the Judaic concept of God. Whether or not you believe that was brought about by God, or by the people themselves, is irrelevant to the topic. The fact remains that Judaism in the time of the Prophets thought very differently about God than it did in say, Exodus. By the time you get to Jesus, all of the disciples were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jews except Luke, and he was a Jew by Choice (a convert).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 09:28:24 PM
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Not really. The whole situation stems from war, even Islam itself is a philosophy that results from extreme turmoil in the region. Religions are often shaped by the area they originate from, not the opposite. This is why if you read the Old Testament in the Bible and then read the New Testament it almost appears to be two separate gods. The Old testament god is similar to Islam's Allah in that they are both war gods. The New Testament god on the other hand was more peaceful (despite many wars brought about by Christianity, most of the New Testaments teaching revolve around peaceful solution to problems).

Thus even though ISIS could be described as a religious radical state, really they would do what they do regardless of religion. Man shapes religion, not the other way around.

ISIS exists as a direct result of American intervention. If Saddam was never deposed, it is unlikely they would be as powerful as they are right now, at least in Iraq anyway. Don't forget that there are also quite a few westerners among their ranks, many of which had peacefully lived in western countries (sometimes second generations) many years before joining up.

The conflict in Syria served as their genesis, but it was their push into Iraq that made people pay attention.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 07, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
ISIS exists as a direct result of American intervention. If Saddam was never deposed, it is unlikely they would be as powerful as they are right now, at least in Iraq anyway. Don't forget that there are also quite a few westerners among their ranks, many of which had peacefully lived in western countries (sometimes second generations) many years before joining up.

The conflict in Syria served as their genesis, but it was their push into Iraq that made people pay attention.

Okay, now I'm confused. You're 100% agreeing with what I've said yet you gladly informed me the situation is more complicate than what I've previously claimed.

ISIS is a direct result of intervention in the middle east. I'm not so sure even more intervention is going to resolve the situation.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
ISIS exists as a direct result of American intervention. If Saddam was never deposed, it is unlikely they would be as powerful as they are right now, at least in Iraq anyway. Don't forget that there are also quite a few westerners among their ranks, many of which had peacefully lived in western countries (sometimes second generations) many years before joining up.

The conflict in Syria served as their genesis, but it was their push into Iraq that made people pay attention.

Okay, now I'm confused. You're 100% agreeing with what I've said yet you gladly informed me the situation is more complicate than what I've previously claimed.

ISIS is a direct result of intervention in the middle east. I'm not so sure even more intervention is going to resolve the situation.

I think the answer is just a bit more nuanced than 'lel war made ISIS'. In the most basic sense, it was 2 different wars that got them to their current status.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 07, 2014, 10:03:30 PM
I think the answer is just a bit more nuanced than 'lel war made ISIS'. In the most basic sense, it was 2 different wars that got them to their current status.

Why would you poke fun at the statement that war made ISIS, then afterwards state that war caused ISIS?

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 07, 2014, 10:10:25 PM
I think the answer is just a bit more nuanced than 'lel war made ISIS'. In the most basic sense, it was 2 different wars that got them to their current status.

Why would you poke fun at the statement that war made ISIS, then afterwards state that war caused ISIS?
Because their roots are in other extremist groups that have existed for a long time, it was only in the Syrian war that they went independent. Their incursion into Iraq was only so successful because of Iraq 2 10 years ago. Conflict has expanded their influence and had a hand in their creation, but there are many more factors contributing as well. They get their funding and arms from various states that are actually western allies.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 08, 2014, 12:51:23 AM
Or, in other words, one might say that war made ISIS.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 12:52:01 AM
IRUSH, almost certainly.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 01:28:27 AM
Technically Al-Qaeda made ISIS ;)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:31:38 AM
IRUSH, he's right on that one.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 10:50:43 PM
A nice breakdown (http://conflictarm.com/images/dispatch_iraq_syria.pdf) of the weapons used by ISIS, catalogued by those who captured them from ISIS from June to August. Lots of American weapons, some old AK-47's, a Chinese gun and some old rocket launchers. Some weapons suspected of coming from Saudi Arabia.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 10, 2014, 01:49:01 PM
Technically Al-Qaeda made ISIS ;)
And the Taliban made Al-Qaeda and Russia made the Taliban.  See, it's all Russia's fault.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 02:16:37 PM
Is it the Mujahadeen who started the Taliban?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: markjo on September 10, 2014, 05:27:57 PM
The US supported the Mujahadeen with weapons after Russia invaded and then left them high and dry when Russia left.  The Taliban stepped in to fill the power vacuum.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 11, 2014, 01:18:11 AM
Obama is making his speech now.  Airstrikes are promised and all that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2014, 10:54:24 PM
Obama is making his speech now.  Airstrikes are promised and all that.

Of course.
He has to look tough for the election.  And even his own party wants to kill muslims. 

Americans, generally, want them dead.  Which is sad.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 11:57:58 PM
Obama is making his speech now.  Airstrikes are promised and all that.

Of course.
He has to look tough for the election.  And even his own party wants to kill muslims. 

Americans, generally, want them dead.  Which is sad.

Obama will not be in the next election. Why should he care?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 14, 2014, 12:00:48 AM
ISIS have beheaded another person. British aid worker, David Haines.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 12:03:45 AM
Obama is making his speech now.  Airstrikes are promised and all that.

Of course.
He has to look tough for the election.  And even his own party wants to kill muslims. 

Americans, generally, want them dead.  Which is sad.

Obama will not be in the next election. Why should he care?
Because for some reason the people associate the president with his party.  So if Obama does something, it's a reflection of all democrats.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:05:03 AM
ISIS is probably concentrating on beheading their British prisoners because the UK announced it would not participate in the airstrikes against ISIS.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Particle Person on September 14, 2014, 01:27:35 AM
ISIS is probably concentrating on beheading their British prisoners because the UK announced it would not participate in the airstrikes against ISIS.

They want to be airstruck?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:32:19 AM
They want to be airstruck?

They want as much of "the West" to fight them as possible. War polarizes beliefs. In peace time, most sane people would find ISIS' brand of radicalism to be outright disgusting, but in war anything goes. The more villages that get caught in the crossfire, the more recruits they can round up and convince that the big bad evil westerners are out to kill them.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 02:56:26 AM
They want to be airstruck?

They want as much of "the West" to fight them as possible. War polarizes beliefs. In peace time, most sane people would find ISIS' brand of radicalism to be outright disgusting, but in war anything goes. The more villages that get caught in the crossfire, the more recruits they can round up and convince that the big bad evil westerners are out to kill them.
It really is a perfect strategy.

You do horrible things against the "enemy" for the sole purpose of getting the "enemy" to attack you, which gives you the facts you need to get others to think of your enemy as their enemy.  And the more the "enemy" fights back, the more facts and recruitment material they get.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 03:15:54 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is somehow shipping these guys weapons and spurring on the conflict in the Middle East. Keeping NATO busy fighting a war they can't win would seem like something Russia would do.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on September 14, 2014, 08:29:36 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is somehow shipping these guys weapons and spurring on the conflict in the Middle East. Keeping NATO busy fighting a war they can't win would seem like something Russia would do.
No, keeping NATO busy fighting a war they can't win, is something America would do. Industrial military complex to keep running, national debt to run up etc. America is always at war. It is part of America's roadmap. America will never be at peace. Once an enemy surrenders, a new one must be found. This is one of the things the CIA spends its time doing. Provoking a future war by funding uprisings, assassinating good leaders and encouraging coups.

Seriously, why have you not read 1984 yet?

Quote from: George Orwell, 1984
“The war, therefore if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that the hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word "war," therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that is exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and has been replaced by something quite different. The effect would be much the same if the three superstates, instead of fighting one another, should agree to live in perpetual peace, each inviolate within its own boundaries. For in that case each would still be a self-contained universe, freed forever from the sobering influence of external danger. A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war. This--although the vast majority of Party members understand it only in a shallower sense--is the inner meaning of the Party slogan: WAR IS PEACE.”
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 14, 2014, 09:18:05 AM
The US doesn't need conflict to waste billions on military acquisitions.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on September 14, 2014, 09:21:25 AM
The US doesn't need conflict to waste billions on military acquisitions.
It needs an enemy to ensure Americans keep paying their taxes and support its spending.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 14, 2014, 09:51:08 AM
The US doesn't need conflict to waste billions on military acquisitions.
It needs an enemy to ensure Americans keep paying their taxes and support its spending.

No (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Combat_Vehicle) it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship) doesn't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on September 14, 2014, 11:36:50 AM
Yes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile) it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire) does (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_ration)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 04:17:58 PM
Thork, military industries get a lot of money regardless of whether we are at war or not. Most of the stuff they manufacture never even makes it overseas (which is additionally why a country will never be so stupid as to attempt a land invasion of the US).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Thork on September 14, 2014, 04:55:31 PM
Thork, military industries get a lot of money regardless of whether we are at war or not. Most of the stuff they manufacture never even makes it overseas (which is additionally why a country will never be so stupid as to attempt a land invasion of the US).
No one is going to land invade the US. When the time comes, they will just call in their debt, indulge in a little capital flight and that will be the end of the United States.

But a huge part of military spending is support. You need a war to justify spending on support. Otherwise their is very little to support.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 05:37:39 PM
No one is going to land invade the US. When the time comes, they will just call in their debt, indulge in a little capital flight and that will be the end of the United States.

You once again demonstrate you have no idea what debt is. Stop getting all of your economic knowledge from conspiracy sites.

But a huge part of military spending is support. You need a war to justify spending on support. Otherwise their is very little to support.

Our military spending is the largest in the world (because our economy is the largest in the world) whether or not we are at war.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 14, 2014, 07:57:39 PM
Thork, military industries get a lot of money regardless of whether we are at war or not. Most of the stuff they manufacture never even makes it overseas (which is additionally why a country will never be so stupid as to attempt a land invasion of the US).
No one is going to land invade the US. When the time comes, they will just call in their debt, indulge in a little capital flight and that will be the end of the United States.

But a huge part of military spending is support. You need a war to justify spending on support. Otherwise their is very little to support.

It isn't cheap to fly C-5's around, maintain carriers, and pay everyone involved. Tomahawk missiles are not mass produced as few of them are used, if any. Same goes for most missiles employed by the US, besides maybe the Hellfire.

There certainly is profit in wars, but the big companies don't need them to rake in the cash. Never have.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 19, 2014, 02:27:35 AM
Interview with former IS member:

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/culture/exclusive-qa-with-former-islamic-state-member_26696

Talks about training for IS, life in Al-Raqqa.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 19, 2014, 02:43:03 AM
Interview with former IS member:

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/culture/exclusive-qa-with-former-islamic-state-member_26696

Talks about training for IS, life in Al-Raqqa.
I think the answer is simple: send them porn.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 19, 2014, 02:43:31 AM
We'll attach it to the GBU's.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on September 19, 2014, 08:24:21 PM
2 French Rafales have attacked ISIS positions, Australia is in pre-deployment and will be focusing solely on Iraq.

C'mon England, there's no way you're less warmongering than France and a bunch of convicts.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 20, 2014, 09:20:01 PM
ISIS released a GTA-clone that promotes ISIS ideals and whatnot.

https://games.yahoo.com/news/isis-terror-group-releases-trailer-214030078.html

http://youtu.be/QhbX0Kt9s_I
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 21, 2014, 01:18:02 AM
That's a great soundtrack they've got there.  It's not quite "Radio Ga Ga," but it still gets your attention.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on September 21, 2014, 04:44:05 AM
ISIS released a GTA-clone that promotes ISIS ideals and whatnot.

So, not any different than GTA, then?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost of V on September 21, 2014, 04:50:50 AM
ISIS released a GTA-clone that promotes ISIS ideals and whatnot.

So, not any different than GTA, then?

Pretty much the base game translated into the mud language.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Eddy Baby on September 21, 2014, 09:15:36 AM
Do they say Allahu Akhbar literally every time someone dies? That would get so annoying.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Снупс on September 21, 2014, 11:33:53 AM
ISIS released a GTA-clone that promotes ISIS ideals and whatnot.

https://games.yahoo.com/news/isis-terror-group-releases-trailer-214030078.html

http://youtu.be/QhbX0Kt9s_I

Uhhh, does "literally just clips of Grand Theft Auto V" constitute a GTA clone?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 05, 2015, 02:59:28 PM
Any military undertaking of the kind we are witnessing in Syraq needs very sophisticated intelligence services.

There are only three secret services which can do this: the GRU, the MI6, and the ONI (and to a lesser degree, the Mossad and BND).

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Sean on November 10, 2015, 06:55:04 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/putin-obama.jpg?w=620)


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fortuna on November 10, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Any military undertaking of the kind we are witnessing in Syraq needs very sophisticated intelligence services.

There are only three secret services which can do this: the GRU, the MI6, and the ONI (and to a lesser degree, the Mossad and BND).

To underestimate the NSA would be incredibly stupid.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 11, 2015, 07:36:40 PM
There is also the NRO.

However, the ONI provides the actual military intelligence services, just like the GRU, the ones which are absolutely needed for any kind of large scale operation.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on November 11, 2015, 08:13:54 PM
It's amazing how much info y'all have on secret spy organizations.  Sounds like a pretty shitty intelligence service.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 11, 2015, 08:57:30 PM
A secret spy organization is as good as are its predictions about the future (socially, culturally, and of course, militarily).

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fortuna on November 18, 2015, 11:46:47 AM
The Kurds took Sinjar back from the allah akbars. Now all we need to do is let everyone in Al-Raqqa know via pamphlet that we're going to be dropping 50 fuel-air bombs on IS's dome. These fuckers have to go for good. There are no two ways about it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 19, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
There is an event which has gone virtually unnoticed (even in the various websites devoted to conspiracies), and which could be used to unleash a large scale conflict in the Middle East.

It is obvious that it is not going to be something related to Turkey invading northern Syria, or Yemen invading southern SA aiming for Mecca, or Nato pushing ever eastward in Europe, or a new 9/11 type of event, something bigger is needed.

One might ask: what would be the reason to go to war, at any cost? It has everything to do with the knowledge (at the highest possible levels of various secret societies) about the precise moment in time when a major astronomical cataclysm will take place in the future.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 19, 2015, 04:48:38 PM
The stimulus trap (term coined by Peter Schiff) which has been going on ever since 2008, is carefully planned to occur in parallel with the other political/military events.

Here is the shadow rate:

(http://www.schiffradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Wu-Xia_Shadow_Fed.jpg)


As an example of the social events planned for the Western world...

Toward Soviet America by William Z. Foster. Head of the Communist Party USA, Foster indicates that a National Department of Education would be one of the means used to develop a new socialist society in the U.S (which actually came into being in 1979-1980).

Co-signer of the Humanist Manifesto, C.F. Potter said in 1930:  "Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism, and every American public school is a school of humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools, meeting for an hour once a week, teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?


On September 18, 2015, Cong. Mike Pompeo (R) sent a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry, which included this statement:

I have reviewed the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) between the P5+1 and Islamic Republic of Iran – or at least the parts of the agreement that were provided to Congress by the administration. 

During that review, I found that the copies provided to Congress of the JCPOA are not signed by any of the P5+1 members nor by Iran.


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 24, 2015, 11:42:08 AM
http://theaviationist.com/2015/10/05/russian-su-30sm-su-24-violate-turkish-airspace-flanker-locks-on-tuaf-f-16-for-5-minutes/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/611157/Russia-Turkey-jet-plane-shot-down-airspace-Syria-ISIS-Islamic-State (Oct. 10, 2015)

http://warmonitor.net/news/2015/10/09/reports-turkey-shoots-down-russian-jet-in-airspace-violation/

four days later, the story was changed to "a drone was shot down"...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/16/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-warplane-idUSKCN0SA15K20151016

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 25, 2015, 07:46:28 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/putin-erdogan-car-sultan-670.jpg?w=620)

“Disregarding these warnings, both planes, at an altitude of 19,000 feet, violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9:24:05 local time."

Disregarding that a Su-24 has a top speed of some 1300 km/hr, why would the Russians send in such an aircraft knowing that it has no chance against a F-16?

Why not send in a Su-30, or a Su-34, which could have taken down immediately both F-16 fighter planes?

Some journalists said that the Russians wanted to see how far they can push Turkey, and that now they found out. But it doesn't work like that. The Russians knew very well from the very start of their operations in Syria that such an incident might arise, which makes even more strange the decision to send in a Su-24 instead of the much more powerful aircrafts which the Turkish military would have never dared to attack in the first place.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on November 25, 2015, 08:10:33 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/putin-erdogan-car-sultan-670.jpg?w=620)

“Disregarding these warnings, both planes, at an altitude of 19,000 feet, violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9:24:05 local time."

Disregarding that a Su-24 has a top speed of some 1300 km/hr, why would the Russians send in such an aircraft knowing that it has no chance against a F-16?

Turkey's F-16C/D's are entirely capable of taking down any Russian fighter currently stationed in Syria or anywhere else.

Why not send in a Su-30, or a Su-34, which could have taken down immediately both F-16 fighter planes?

Because the mission wasn't to take down Turkish F-16's within their own airspace. That would be incredibly stupid and entirely pointless.

Some journalists said that the Russians wanted to see how far they can push Turkey, and that now they found out. But it doesn't work like that. The Russians knew very well from the very start of their operations in Syria that such an incident might arise, which makes even more strange the decision to send in a Su-24 instead of the much more powerful aircrafts which the Turkish military would have never dared to attack in the first place.

Do you really think the Turkish Air Force is going to shrink from a scary air superiority fighter entering their air space? It's their skies, they can and will exercise whatever force they deem necessary, and they're more than equipped to handle any aircraft in Russian inventory.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fortuna on November 25, 2015, 10:25:45 AM
Not going to war for Turkey if Russia decides to spank them, no sir.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 25, 2015, 12:01:26 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/putin2.jpg?w=620)

Turkey uses conventional Western technology; compared to the Russians, they are nowhere near the scalar radar wave discoveries made in the former USSR.

To understand what is going on we must go back to the Tunguska explosion.

The Soviets understood very fast that it could not have been caused by either a comet, or an asteroid, or a meteorite; moreover, they calculated the trajectory of the fireball to the very mile, no natural object is capable of achieving such a deliberately modified orbit.

And they found out about Tesla's lab and the new laws of physics he was establishing at the time, based on scalar waves (scalar wave = subquark wave/string).


So, Stalin turned to the physicists and engineers of the Soviet Academy of Sciences and made them an offer they could not refuse: either you come up with something just as powerful, and very fast, or you will take an unexpected trip to Siberia.

Knowing what was good for them, the Soviet Academicians did not dare to debate or protest against his ultimatum to search every field of knowledge, no matter what. Instead, Academy scientists vigorously turned to a massive search for the new breakthrough area. Scientific literature from the West was hauled to Russia by the shipload. Thousands of Soviet PhDs and engineers were put to work in huge analysis institutes, sifting through the literature and digesting it—and carefully noting anomalies and areas which should be followed up. Nothing even remotely approaching such a technical digestion and analysis effort has ever been attempted in the West.

Several years after WWII, then, the Soviets should have been embarked on experimentation with a Moray prototype amplifier. They should have been deeply involved in time-reversed EM wave experimentation to rediscover what Tesla actually had done in wireless transmission of energy without loss. Also, the earlier Kaluza-Klein unified electromagnetics and gravitation theory(1921-1926) could not have eluded the Soviet scientists, who have consistently led the world in nonlinear mathematics. Of necessity, the search for a new breakthrough area would have initiated intensive review of the foundations of physics and electromagnetics, in an effort to discover any "holes" that might exist. Thus the short debate at the turn of the century, that established Heaviside's limited version of Maxwell's EM theory—largely because of Western repugnance for Maxwell's use of Hamilton's difficult quaternions— would not have gone undetected.

The Soviets, having lead the world in non-linear science and mathematics would have by the mid 1950’s had an intensive development program on these radar time reversed weapons. (radar waves are one step lower than scalar waves).



This is how the Soviet Cosmospheres (using, of course, the Biefeld-Brown effect) came into existence.

Canada, Great Britain and USA have made some progress along the same lines, but nowhere near the discoveries made by the Soviet scientists in the field of Scalar Electromagnetics.

And the Tianjin explosions were caused by using Western scalar weapons (equivalent to a 5 kiloton blast).

(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--uWHZL2X---/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1383974359243066026.jpg)

(https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/tianjin-crater.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=1600)


The Russians have aircraft modified to use scalar EM mode, which can employ scalar beam and radar interference, thus having the ability to outperform Western technology.

Here is what a Su-24 equipped with scalar radar technology can do:

https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/what-frightened-the-uss-donald-cook-so-much-in-the-black-sea/

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on November 25, 2015, 02:47:20 PM
yeah but i read that turkey has the super implodo beam that makes anything implode using the thomas edison hyper-cheetos superquark ray gun.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on November 26, 2015, 07:50:51 AM
One step above microwaves is infra red.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on November 27, 2015, 09:15:35 AM
Turkey uses conventional Western technology; compared to the Russians, they are nowhere near the scalar radar wave discoveries made in the former USSR.

Compared to the Russians, who still use PESA radar systems in their cutting edge fighters. It's commonly held that Russian radar systems are inferior to what the west put out.

To understand what is going on we must go back to the Tunguska explosion.

The Soviets understood very fast that it could not have been caused by either a comet, or an asteroid, or a meteorite; moreover, they calculated the trajectory of the fireball to the very mile, no natural object is capable of achieving such a deliberately modified orbit.

And they found out about Tesla's lab and the new laws of physics he was establishing at the time, based on scalar waves (scalar wave = subquark wave/string).

Right, should've expected this from you.

Here is what a Su-24 equipped with scalar radar technology can do:

https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/what-frightened-the-uss-donald-cook-so-much-in-the-black-sea/

It can fly within a few thousand feet of a US destroyer? Oh no.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on November 27, 2015, 09:58:19 AM
If you read the link it talks about an all encompassing EMP like weapon on a plane.
The comments then talk about a radar jammer on the wings.


The author claims to not be a tech expert and praises the cross-eyed system link which she again leaves the tech up to others and see's the big picture.


Kinda contradictory, eh?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 27, 2015, 10:48:06 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/putin.jpg?w=620)

For a basic idea of who these guys are and what they're doing, there's the Wikipedia page

You won't get very far with the vickypedia pages... you need much more than that.

The key to understanding what is going on in Syria is the large presence of Chechen military personnel within the ranks of isil.


Russian scalar radar technology: project Khibiny

Russian technology and developments in the field of electronic warfare are among the most advanced in the world and hidden from the public gaze.

(http://nl.media.rbth.ru/468x312/web/in-rbth/images/2015-02/big/14/Krasukha.png)

Khibiny: Terror of the destroyers

This relatively small container in the shape of a torpedo is mounted on the wingtips of the aircraft and makes the sky machines invulnerable to all modern means of defence and enemy fighters. After the crew receives missile attack alert, Khibiny comes into action and covers the fighter with radio-electronic protective hood, which prevents the missile from reaching the target and makes it deviate from the course. Khibiny increases the survivability of the aircraft by 25-30 times.


Also read:

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150304/1019042643.html


A history of scalar radar weapons:

http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/history.htm
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on November 27, 2015, 11:50:33 AM

(http://nl.media.rbth.ru/468x312/web/in-rbth/images/2015-02/big/14/Krasukha.png)

There's nothing terribly amazing about an EW truck. You don't need magical technology to feed false information to an AWACS, or flat out fire as much noise as you can at it. In a real conflict, a truck with a big dish on the back is the last place you'd want to be. Anything with a big dish is also a big target, regardless of how effective it may be at blinding enemy aircraft.

This relatively small container in the shape of a torpedo is mounted on the wingtips of the aircraft and makes the sky machines invulnerable to all modern means of defence and enemy fighters. After the crew receives missile attack alert, Khibiny comes into action and covers the fighter with radio-electronic protective hood, which prevents the missile from reaching the target and makes it deviate from the course. Khibiny increases the survivability of the aircraft by 25-30 times.

Western nations have had EW pods for a long time as well. They're not a magic bullet that grant you invulnerability. They also don't do jack shit against IR guided missiles.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 27, 2015, 02:54:43 PM
(https://theeclecticminds.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/nicola-tesla-slide-1.jpg?w=676)

Western technology is based on radio ripples in the sea of ether, that is, Hertzian waves.

By contrast, scalar wave technology is based on non-Hertzian waves.

An ordinary electromagnetic wave consists of two scalar waves.

Scalar radar waves function markedly different from ordinary radar devices.

A signal can be injected directly into such a scalar wave, without causing any kind of ripples in the ether, this constitutes true wireless technology.

Then, the radar itself becomes a powerful weapon: once it receives a return signal from a target, a very powerful scalar wave pulse can be generated, and all the energy in that pulse can be returned to the distant target.


To understand what is going in Syria, one has to go back to Afghanistan (1979). Contrary to what has been publicized in the West, there were no significant losses due to the Stinger missile (see http://europauniversitypress.co.uk/auth_article416.html ).

At first glance, as described by most political analysts, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan remains a deeply puzzling event.

Most importantly, the external threat to Afghanistan was much exaggerated by the Soviets to justify their action. Prior to the invasion, the mujahidin was weak, divided, and in no position to seize control of the country, let alone expand its activities to the Soviet Central Asian republics. The suggestion that Amin was on the verge of reorienting his country towards the West is also found to be without foundation.

The action is also shown to have possessed little immediately understandable logic in the context of Moscow's dealings with the Afghan regime, while simultaneously presenting several predictable costs to both the Soviet Union's international standing and domestic affairs. Even more interesting is the finding from archival research that earlier in 1979 the CPSU Politburo had, in no uncertain terms, dismissed the option of a major deployment of Soviet troops to Afghanistan, having shown themselves to be very much alive to the high risks involved. There can be little doubt therefore that the Soviet decision to launch the invasion must be considered an extraordinary undertaking and an event meriting close study.

Since the Second World War, Soviet economic penetration of Afghanistan had grown steadily. Moscow had taken the leading role in developing the country's physical infrastructure, building up its mining industry, gas pipelines, airfields, and road network, including the Salang Tunnel through the Hindu Kush, which served as the main artery connecting Afghanistan to the Soviet Union. In total, the Soviets had already completed 71 separate projects in Afghanistan by April 1978 and another 60 had been agreed upon; Soviet-Afghan trade had come to account for 70–80 percent of the Afghan total. As Milan Hauner summarizes: “Taken together, the Soviet aid program was a carefully calibrated Soviet economic penetration of a neighboring country: long before they sent a single soldier across the Afghan border, the Soviet presence in the country was already overpowering”.

Had the Soviet Union proceeded more cautiously and not subverted what had been a highly favorable situation for them, Moscow would almost certainly have retained a leading role in Afghanistan and, via its economic and personnel investments, continued to have exerted considerable influence over any regime in Kabul.

However, instead of proceeding with its established policy of gradual integration and prudent maintenance of good relations with all Kabul regimes, Moscow adopted a bold and incredibly costly change in strategy, risking all of their slowly accumulated gains for an ally of seemingly little value. To look at it another way, having carefully consumed a sizeable piece of the Afghan cake, the Soviets attempted to gulp down the rest in a single, overzealous bite.


Why, then, would the Soviets proceed in such a reckless manner?


Yuriy Andropov, head of the New Kremlin:

Would our forces really help them here? In this case, tanks and armored vehicles cannot be of assistance. I think that we should say directly to Comrade Taraki that we support all of their actions and will render the help which we have agreed today and yesterday, but in no way can we move to an introduction of forces to Afghanistan. […] To bring in troops, this means to fight against the people, to suppress the people, to shoot the people. We will look like aggressors, and we cannot allow this (Ob obostrenii, Bukovsky Archive, March 17–19, 1979, p. 16, p. 24).


On the basis of the factors discussed above, the Soviet decision to invade Afghanistan seems bewildering. In addition to being atypical of Moscow's established Third World policy and offering few apparent benefits and several obvious costs, the deployment of troops has been shown to have been firmly and repeatedly opposed by the Politburo just a matter of months earlier. One is therefore left to ponder, what could possibly have induced the Soviet leaders to perform so rapid a volte-face?

The answer to this question, then, makes it possible to understand what is going on in the Middle East today.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 27, 2015, 08:21:50 PM
(http://www.therightplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/russia-bear.jpg)

You need to go further than the bibliographical reference you mentioned...

https://web.archive.org/web/20070206181101/http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/red-symphony.html


Then, read the works of Dr. Peter Beter on the New Kremlin.

The Russians are not looking for war, on the contrary.

As I said, there is a very deep reason for the West trying to spark a wide conflict...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 01, 2015, 07:22:14 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/russiaturkey.jpg?

w=620)

http://southfront.org/turkey-is-ready-to-invide-syria-concentrated-1000-units-of-military-equipment-at-the-border/


(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/putin-obama.jpeg?w=620)

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/bombshell-turkish-attack-russian-su-24-was-guided-us-and-saudis-reconnassaince-aircraft

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 01, 2015, 12:14:13 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/russia-bear-cross.jpg?w=620)

I already did mention the reason, in fact it is inscribed on the pyramid featured on the one dollar bill:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1726000#msg1726000

The Sun will rise from the West at the time of Imam Mahdi's appearance.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 05, 2015, 05:20:10 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/putin-erdogan.jpg?w=320&h=484)

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151205/1031279993/iraq-demands-end-turkish-invasion.html

(http://uziiw38pmyg1ai60732c4011.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/dropzone/2015/10/Vladimir-Putin-riding-a-bear-510x394.jpg)

http://www.jacksmithprophecy.org/2015/01/23/abdullahs-death-and-the-fall-of-yemen-to-houthis-will-iran-see-the-will-of-allah/


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fortuna on December 06, 2015, 10:16:46 AM
I look forward to a world where politics aren't necessary. They're seriously the worst.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 07, 2015, 09:10:59 AM
I look forward to a world where politics aren't necessary. They're seriously the worst.

When there is no more than one person left, then?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 07, 2015, 09:20:16 AM
I look forward to a world where politics aren't necessary. They're seriously the worst.
You just posted this for its grammar-trolling potential, didn't you?

You crafty bastard, you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 07, 2015, 10:27:54 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/vladiator.jpg)

Let us go back to the mysterious occurrences which did start the entire sequence of events.

September 12, crane collapse at Grand Mosque (Mecca):

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/saudi-crane-collapse-kills-107-mecca-grand-mosque-150911232844846.html

September 24, stampede at Mecca

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/09/29/431233/Saudi-Hajj-Mecca-Mina-


The bizarre turn of events which did take place right before the collapse of the crane:

https://earthchangeaffirmations.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/911-mecca-crane-disaster-kills-100-muslims-who-owned-the-crane-is-turning-heads/


As for the stampede, conspiracy websites offered the theory according to which certain secret services used the event to kidnap key Iranian officials.

Then, on September 30, 2015, Russia launched the first airstrikes in Syria.

However, a lesser known event occurred on September 27, 2015, just three days after stampede at Mecca: the launching of the Antarctica mission of the Admiral Vladimirsky research vessel (which left Russia on November 6, http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151206/1031310899/russian-research-ship-admiral-vladimirsky.html ).

And, of all possible places, the vessel just departed the Saudi Arabian Port of Jeddah (http://tass.ru/en/defense/841861 ). This coincides with the Indian-Russian naval exercises, and unconfirmed reports say that once the naval warships will end their mission in the Indian Ocean, they will rendezvous with the research vessel on the way to Antarctica.

A photograph showing the mysterious thunderstorm at Mecca, right before the crane collapse:

(http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/rnf3.jpg)

Why would the Saudis undertake such a controversial project, which has been described for the public as a simple building expansion project?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-photos-saudi-arabia-doesnt-want-seen-and-proof-islams-most-holy-relics-are-being-demolished-in-8536968.html


Is it possible that scalar weapons were used at both events, just as they were used at Tianjin in China?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2015, 07:34:11 PM
If it was a superweapon, then wouldn't it have done more than collapse a single crane? Doesn't seem like a very good superweapon to me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on December 08, 2015, 07:26:04 AM
If it was a superweapon, then wouldn't it have done more than collapse a single crane? Doesn't seem like a very good superweapon to me.


Scalar waves, man.  They scale.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 08, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
September 7, 2015, unprecedented sandstorm hits Syria and Lebanon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8oj42ZSQaI&feature=youtu.be&t=11


September 8, 2015, severe sandstorm in Jeddah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlzo9gLpBdw&feature=youtu.be


Then, just three days later, severe thunderstorms hit Mecca: before the collapse of the crane, an extremely unusual weather phenomenon occurred, for Mecca in early September.

Extreme weather does occur in Mecca, in the period of November-January, but not in early September.

Spanning the perimeter of the Grand Mosque, there were fifteen cranes located there.

Here is another photograph taken at the time of the collapse:

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/COo2w0BWUAAq3NG.jpg)


Considering that all the cranes at the Grand Mosque have lightning rods, then what is the chance that it would hit the crane that fell between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

Moreover, the lightning bolt hit the crane near the base, and not near the top.


Let us remember that scalar weapons can transmit the equivalent of megatons of energy at a distant target, just like the feat accomplished by Tesla at Tunguska.







Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 08, 2015, 08:58:59 AM
What I find weird that the three 'Scalar Energy' attacks you mention (Tunguska, Mecca, and Tianjin) all look totally different, almost as though the incidents have nothing in common.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 08, 2015, 09:50:11 AM
Scalar energy = transmission of energy directly through a subquark string

A normal electromagnetic wave consists of two scalar waves, which propagate in double torsion fashion.

Tesla discovered that the claims made by Hertz were totally false; Hertz mistook a shockwave through the air for a true electromagnetic wave.

Tesla always maintained that true wireless technology means to send energy/signals directly through an ether/scalar wave, as opposed to just creating a ripple through the sea of ether (modern day e/m theory).


The three events mentioned (Tunguska, Mecca, Tianjin) differ in degree not in kind.

Please research this topic, scalar weapons/cosmospheres, and you will discover more details which might surprise you.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 08, 2015, 12:20:52 PM
This is what Mecca looks like right now:

(http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/01/Grand-Mosque-Ramadan-Reuters-640x480.jpg)

Few historians remember that the sultan of the Ottoman empire was regarded as and served as the caliph of the entire world of Islam...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on December 08, 2015, 12:40:40 PM
Scalar energy = transmission of energy directly through a subquark string

A normal electromagnetic wave consists of two scalar waves, which propagate in double torsion fashion.

Tesla discovered that the claims made by Hertz were totally false; Hertz mistook a shockwave through the air for a true electromagnetic wave.

Tesla always maintained that true wireless technology means to send energy/signals directly through an ether/scalar wave, as opposed to just creating a ripple through the sea of ether (modern day e/m theory).


The three events mentioned (Tunguska, Mecca, Tianjin) differ in degree not in kind.

Please research this topic, scalar weapons/cosmospheres, and you will discover more details which might surprise you.


Normal electromagnetic waves consist of a magnetic and electrical field in perpendicular.


So scalar waves are.... Magnetic and ectric waves?


Also, so you know how small a subquark must be?  And how little energy can be transmitted through them?


And megatons is pretty big so why isn't the sky exploding as gases are excited?


And, more importantly, how can a plane generate that kind of energy?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 08, 2015, 01:45:25 PM
Normal electromagnetic waves consist of a magnetic and electrical field in perpendicular.

This is the lie perpetrated to the general public.

However, the latest experimental documentation on electromagnetic waves revealed something else:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg759332#msg759332

Tesla's nonhertzian waves theory:

http://www.teslaenergy.org/intro4.html


Rigorously, all vector fields are two-point functions and thus decomposable into two scalar fields, as Whittaker showed in 1903.  It follows that any vector wave can be decomposed into two scalar waves.  By implication, therefore, a normal transverse EM vector wave, e.g., must simply be two coupled scalar (Tesla) waves -- and these scalars independently would be longitudinal if uncoupled.  An ordinary transverse EM vector wave is thus two pair-coupled Tesla scalar longitudinal waves, and only a single special case of the much more fundamental electromagnetics discovered by Nikola Tesla.

Those who build the Giza Pyramid knew about the existence of telluric waves, consisting of dextrorotatory and laevorotatory scalar waves:

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n206/dharanis1/pir7_zps596b4d3b.jpg)


Also, so you know how small a subquark must be?  And how little energy can be transmitted through them?

On the contrary, the smaller the particle, the higher the energy that can be transmitted.

Chris Hill, theorist at Fermilab, indicated the view in “New Scientist” | 11 May 1996 | page 29 | “It would suggest that whatever lies inside the quarks is incredibly tightly bound, in a way that theory can’t yet accommodate.”

A glimpse at the unbelievable energies in a subquark:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1109.3705.pdf


N. Tesla:

My apparatus projects particles which may be relatively large or of microscopic dimensions, enabling us to convey to a small area at a great distance trillions of times more energy than is possible with rays of any kind.  Many thousands of horsepower can thus be transmitted by a stream thinner than a hair, so that nothing can resist.  This wonderful feature will make it possible, among other things, to achieve undreamed-of results in television, for there will be almost no limit to the intensity of illumination, the size of the picture, or distance of projection.

Tesla said his transmitter could produce 100 million volts of pressure with currents up to 1000 amperes which is a power level of 100 billion watts.
 
If it was resonating at a radio frequency of 2 MHz, then the energy released during one period of its oscillation would be 100,000,000,000,000,000 (1016) Joules of energy, or roughly the amount of energy released by the explosion of 10 megatons of TNT.

Such a transmitter, would be capable of projecting the energy of a nuclear warhead by radio.


And megatons is pretty big so why isn't the sky exploding as gases are excited?

And, more importantly, how can a plane generate that kind of energy?


You have to study the physics of ball lightning technology, here is a good introduction:

http://www.cheniere.org/books/part1/teslaweapons.htm

The energy is transmitted through a cosmosphere.

Planes can use scalar radar technology.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on December 08, 2015, 02:38:10 PM
Someone doesn't know how radiation works.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on December 08, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
If it was a superweapon, then wouldn't it have done more than collapse a single crane? Doesn't seem like a very good superweapon to me.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 08, 2015, 04:10:57 PM
(http://orig08.deviantart.net/6446/f/2014/110/f/a/the_captain_russia_by_putin1vladimir-d7f9sod.jpg)

No other scientist understood radiation better than Tesla and Le Bon.

Radioactivity = the influence/effect of dextrorotatory waves upon matter (disintegration, decay, decomposition)

Dr. Gustav Le Bon and his work on telluric currents:

Another researcher, a contemporary of Tesla, succeeded in advancing the "external bombardment" theory of radioactivity with new experimental proofs. Dr. Gustav Le Bon, a Belgian physicist, examined and compared ultraviolet rays and radioactive energies with great fascination. Concluding from experiments that energetic bombardments were directly responsible for radioactivity, he was able to perform manipulations of the same. He succeeded in diminishing the radioactive output of certain materials by simple physical treatments. Heating measurably slowed the radioactive decay of radium chloride, a thing considered implausible by physicists.


In each case, Le Bon raised the radium temperature until it glowed red-hot. The same retardation of emanations were observed. He found it possible to isolate the agent, which was actually radioactive in the radium lattice, a glowing gaseous "emanation" which could be condensed in liquid air. Radium was thereafter itself de-natured. Being exposed to the external influence of bombarding rays, the radium again became active. The apparent reactivation of radium after heating required twenty days before reaching its maximum value.

 Le Bon stated that the reason why all matter was spontaneously emanating rays was not because they were contaminated with heavy radioactive elements. Ordinary matter was disintegrating into rays because it was being bombarded by external rays of a peculiar variety.

Le Bon disagreed when physicists began isolating the heavy metals as "the only radioactive elements. He had already distinctly demonstrated for them that "all matter was to a degree radioactive". He was first to write books on the conversion of ordinary matter into rays, an activity he claimed was constant. He showed that this flux from ordinary matter could be measured. Le Bon stated that the reason why all matter was spontaneously emanating rays was not because they were contaminated with heavy radioactive elements. Ordinary matter was disintegrating.


The external rays which disintegrate matter are telluric currents of dextrorotatory spin.

Tesla stated that if any radioactive element were to be shielded from these rays, the material would cease to be radioactive.

Radioactive materials are the dense targets of external energetic streams.


Now, let us get back to the subject of this thread.

“A tent city within İncirlik has been undergoing reconstruction for modern prefabricated houses, which will host 2,250 US military personnel, the Doğan news agency reported on Friday. During the Gulf War of 1991, a tent city was established to accommodate military personnel serving with Operation Provide Comfort (OPC) and was shut down with the end of the OPC.

On Aug. 20, work began to transform the site of the tent city into a new area named “Patriot Town.” After construction is completed, the İncirlik base will have the largest capacity among the US bases in Europe…"

Therefore, Washington is gearing up for another war just like it did in 1991.


In 1933, The Shape of Things to Come, H.G. Wells predicted a clash between Germany and Poland in 1940.

Then, he wrote: ".. the plan for the 'Modern World-State' would succeed in its third attempt (Third World War) and would come out of something that would occur in Basra, Iraq."
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: drevko on December 09, 2015, 03:15:59 PM
It wasn't scalar weapons, it was man made psychic power.

You blame it all on "scalar weapons" with just the reasoning that it wasn't natural.

And that's correct but you jump too fast to what you think is then the only explanation.


Then, just three days later, severe thunderstorms hit Mecca: before the collapse of the crane, an extremely unusual weather phenomenon occurred, for Mecca in early September.

Extreme weather does occur in Mecca, in the period of November-January, but not in early September.

Spanning the perimeter of the Grand Mosque, there were fifteen cranes located there.

Here is another photograph taken at the time of the collapse:

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/COo2w0BWUAAq3NG.jpg)


Considering that all the cranes at the Grand Mosque have lightning rods, then what is the chance that it would hit the crane that fell between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

Moreover, the lightning bolt hit the crane near the base, and not near the top.


Let us remember that scalar weapons can transmit the equivalent of megatons of energy at a distant target, just like the feat accomplished by Tesla at Tunguska.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 10, 2015, 11:31:36 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/vlad-putin-in-from-russia-with-love-108333.jpg)

(http://www.debka.com/dynmedia/photos/2015/12/03/src/1.jpg)

This might be the reason behind Turkey's incursion in Iraq...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 10, 2015, 01:42:07 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/russian_bear.jpg?w=620)

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151210/1031505344/turkey-urges-citizens-leave-iraq.html

The best tank in the world: T-14 Armata

http://nationalinterest.org/files/styles/main_image_on_posts/public/main_images/pic_3.jpg?itok=6-ehBPaK

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150426/1021398947.html
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 10, 2015, 04:30:17 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/e7ea9-putin-bear2.jpg)

'We are not going to change Soviet power, of course, or abandon its fundamental principles,
but we acknowledge the need for changes that will strengthen socialism....
The essence of 'perestroika' is that it... revives the concept of socialist construction both in theory and in practice'

'Through restructuring, we want to give socialism a second wind and unveil in all its plenitude the vast humanist potential of the socialist system'

M. Gorbachev


"Nothing in politics ever happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."

FDR


After 1953, there was a struggle for power at the Kremlin: the Bolsheviks vs. the survivors of the Green Army (very tough sect of Russian Christians).


'They are introducing liberalizing changes in Russia gradually, one step at a time.
Having come this far, they are trying not to move too fast and thereby risk allowing it all to be undone.'

P. Beter



The best Cruise missile in the world: the Kalibr

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151012/1028390749/russia-kalibr-missile.html



Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 10, 2015, 05:20:25 PM
You really didn't to make three consecutive posts to say that.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 10, 2015, 07:37:05 PM
(https://saboteur365.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/bear-gun-fire-cabela-dangerous-hunts-0180.jpg?w=730&h=456)

May 9, 2016
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 10, 2015, 07:48:27 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/DhpatoG.jpg)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on December 10, 2015, 08:25:36 PM
Get back on track, please.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on December 10, 2015, 09:45:06 PM

Get back on track, please.

What is the track?

Something that resembles actual discussion and not just posting pictures.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 11, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
(http://nteb.mudflowermedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/syria-showdown-obama-assad-putin-russia-china-iran-israel-united-states-psalm-83-war.jpg)

A list of main Shia holy sites in Iraq:

Imam Ali Mosque, Najaf

Imam Husayn Shrine, Karbala

Great Mosque of Kufa


Al-Askari Mosque of Samarra


(http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/simple-map-of-iraq-and-its-neighbors.png)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 13, 2015, 06:32:38 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/from-russia-with-love.jpg?w=620)

One of the most remarkable articles ever featured in The Economist was published in 1988, with a prediction:

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-6359751.html

The cover included the Phoenix symbol:

(https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/theeconomist-phoenix_get_ready_for_world_currency_by_2018.jpg)


Again, to understand what is going on in the ME, one has go to back to 1979:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg81601#msg81601
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on December 13, 2015, 10:54:47 PM
Russian Fellatio: The Thread.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 14, 2015, 06:49:15 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/putin-11.jpg?w=620&h=465)

I thought I'd create a kind of news/discussion thread in regards to this since we have nothing regarding it right now. For a basic idea of who these guys are and what they're doing, there's the Wikipedia page...

With this kind of hapless contribution, you will never understand what is actually going on in the ME.

In fact, you have no idea where to start, or how to anticipate the next moves; that is why you need the information contained in my messages: you should be giving alms and prayers for having the opportunity to read them.

Let me show you just how little you know about the entire situation.

Isis has not allowed foreigners into its senior military positions, with one exception: the Chechens.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on December 14, 2015, 09:15:34 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MxJla_rLf-I/VOPTpezzYLI/AAAAAAACFKc/Tr3c22jZ8Qs/s1600/King-World-News-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Putin-Can-Destroy-NATO-And-The-Entire-Western-Financial-System1.jpg)
(http://www.sott.net/image/s13/272695/full/Vlad_Putin_007_108329.jpg)

Even better, from now on, I am going to let vindictus run the show: he is going to tell you, using his high ranking information hotline (wikipedia page), exactly what is going to happen in the next six months in the Middle East, the vital information you all need to really understand and decipher the seemingly random set of events which are unfolding at this present time.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on December 14, 2015, 10:06:43 AM
Pretty sure your record is non-existent on predictions.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on December 14, 2015, 01:52:18 PM
Yaakov leaves, levee returns, levee leaves, yaakov returns

Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 02, 2016, 09:40:50 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/csf7rswxiaatrap-jpg-large.jpeg)

As the wikipedia isis page has not been updated at all (the high-ranking source of information for those who complain about the content of other users' posts), the incursion of Turkey into northern Iraq is certainly an event which will have important consequences in 2016.

With Kemal Ataturk's military victories at the start of the third decade of the 20th century  the treaty of Sevres was never applied.

The 1923 treaty of Lausanne stipulated a provisional boundary in Iraq, with a final agreement to be signed later.

But the League of Nations ended up assigning the Mosul province, with its 600,000 inhabitants, to Iraq, and in 1926 Turkey reluctantly had to sign this agreement.

Turkey's President Suleyman Demirel, in 1995 (during operation steel, when 35,000 Turkish troops entered northern Iraq):

"The border is wrong. The Mosul Province was within the Ottoman Empire's territory. Had that place been a part of Turkey, none of the problems we are confronted with at the present time would have existed."

http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/ottoman_empire_territory_lost_copy_copy.jpg (Mosul province within the territory of the Ottoman Empire)

The Turks see the current situation in Iraq as a golden opportunity to regain their real estate.


Iran cannot enter Iraq with its troops, unless there is a clear provocation (some kind of attack on Samarra's Al-Askari mosque, as an example).

The most ominous aspect of the situation in the Middle East is, of course, the bizarre incursion of Saudi Arabia into Yemen (certainly things could have been done differently) which was a sure sign that more was to follow (the 34 nation coalition organized by Riyadh ready to fight isis in iraq).





Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 03, 2016, 01:56:44 PM
(https://syrianfreepress.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/russian-bear-usa-killer.png)

In order to start a world war, one of the following three scenarios are possible.


1. Israel to attack/bomb Iran. Of course, the most unlikely plot, one in which no advantages would be gained by following such a plan.

2. A terrorist attack on the Abraj Al-Bait Towers (Mecca), causing in turn damage to Kaaba; to be blamed on isil.

3. An incursion of the saudi arabian coalition into Iraq, with the aim of creating a Sunni state, carved out of eastern Syria and the western part of Iraq, in conjunction with a terrorist attack on a Shia mosque in Iraq, which would bring Iran right in the middle of the events. This would be followed by large uprisings in Bahrain, Kuwait.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 05, 2016, 10:59:26 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/russia-syria1.jpg?w=620)

May 2016

May 9, Mercury solar transit (flight of the Phoenix)

May, very possible Kurdish referendum on independence


The official line is that Turkey can live with a KRG led government in northern Iraq, but not with an independent northern Syrian territory led by the YPG (even though the Turks regard Mosul as their own province).

The official line, also, is that the KRG are Sunni moslems, even though a deeper analysis will reveal very interesting facts.

If Kurdistan becomes independent (notwithstanding Turkey's future plans for Mosul), then the Shia population in Iraq will also demand for a unification of the corresponding territories in southern Iraq and Iran. This will mean that the oil and gas fields of Iraq will belong to the Shia and Kurdish led governments, and not to the Sunnis of Iraq who will be forced to seek any possible alliances, in the short term, to gain access to oil and gas (any discoveries of new oil fields in Sunni led territories will change the equation, but also bring more problems, as Iraq's neighbors to the south might profit from the debacle to grab the Sunni's oil fields).

And the Iranians are fearful of an independent Sunni led region, as they remember too well the eight year long war (1980-1988) which started, some six months earlier, according to some analysts, with the execution of cleric Muhammad Bakir al-Sadr.







Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fat Earl on January 06, 2016, 10:54:52 AM
sandokhan, what's your take on this?

Face It, Iraqi Kurds are ISIS http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/03/face-it-iraqi-kurds-are-isis/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 06, 2016, 01:28:08 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/vlad-putin1.jpg?w=620)

"The Kurdish collaboration [in the KRG] is about to achieve statehood. The statehood of Kurdish nationalism will be used against Turkey and Iran. I tried to stop this."

Abdullah Ocalan (2005)


The leadership of the KRG (Iraqi kurds) and Isil belong to quite different ethnic groups.

Question: why didn't Iran intervene back in 2011 to save their Shia brothers/take over Bahrain, as they could have without endangering the Navy's 5th Fleet stationed in Manama?


There are analysts such as Gordon Duff (veteranstoday) and Thomas Wictor who have some knowledge about the state of affairs in the Middle East; however, it takes much more than that to understand what is going on.

(http://i0.wp.com/www.thomaswictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Mohammed_Bin_Zayed_al-Nahyan_Putin.jpg?resize=300%2C214)

Says T. Wictor: Which leader looks calm and confident, and which looks sheepish and weaselly?

One thing Wictor does not understand is that the person in the photograph is not Putin, but one of his several doubles.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Vindictus on January 06, 2016, 11:54:31 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/vlad-putin1.jpg?w=620)

Ah yes, an accurate pic of the T-50's tendency to catch fire.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 07, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/5490-15-patriotic-cartoons4071.jpg?w=620)

The Soviets have managed to keep the largest weapon development program effectively hidden from western eyes.

They based this program on very advanced mathematics: nonlinear optics, nonlinear scalar wave equations, nonlinear electrogravitation (very little of it was allowed to be transcribed, such as Melnikov's On the Stability of the Center for Time Periodic Perturbations, 1963).

Since computers were not available at that time, the Soviet mathematicians had to develop analytical tools, taking mathematics to a degree undreamed of by their western counterparts.


When applied to conventional weapons, such a high degree of nonlinear mathematics will produce this:

(http://www.tldm.org/News22/ShkvalTorpedo2.jpg)

The Shkval Russian Torpedo uses nonlinear magnetohydrodynamics to create supercavitation technology (in 1969 the The Soviet Research Institute of Applied Hydromechanics was created).

The Shkval  is a nuclear-capable underwater anti-ship missile designed for use by nuclear-powered submarines against large surface ships such as aircraft carriers.

The super-cavitating Shkval is considered silent and fast, up to 3-to-4 times over existing torpedoes.

http://cdn3.img.sputniknews.com/images/102908/07/1029080739.jpg

"There are no evident countermeasures to such a weapon, its employment could put adversary naval forces at a considerable disadvantage," FAS Military Analysis Network

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Rushy on January 07, 2016, 01:06:13 PM
I'm wondering where you keep getting all of these amazing Putin memes.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fat Earl on January 07, 2016, 01:27:57 PM
Kurd KRG, ISIL and Turkey must have been able to find common grounds since they share the same value stream, the oil. Syrian kurds seem to not do the same.

I belive GD is mixing info, yes he has good intel often but his stance on vaccines and vaccination is ludicrous. Guess he got a lot of shots during his career.

Question: now, what's next?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fat Earl on January 07, 2016, 02:00:58 PM
I'm wondering where you keep getting all of these amazing Putin memes.

I think they are really cool.  :)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on January 07, 2016, 02:13:38 PM
I'm wondering where you keep getting all of these amazing Putin memes.
Maybe he makes them himself?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Fat Earl on January 07, 2016, 02:26:24 PM
It's a psyop.

 :o
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 14, 2016, 12:32:46 PM
(http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/owa3.jpg)

In one of the last messages posted at the 2016 Presidential Election thread, we looked at the possibility of higher inflation in the US for 2016.

Now, an even more challenging issue: the price of oil.

Most analysts have declared that the low price of oil is here to stay, even predicting that it will reach some $20/barrel.

They base this kind of reasoning on these arguments:

-Iran will hit the market with a new supply of oil
-Economic slow-down will reduce demand
-Low prices are needed to damage the economies of Russia and Iran
-Higher rates = dollar strength = lower oil prices

However, the oil market has seen high prices irrespective of the dollar’s strength.

Also, there is the geo-political factor which is very important.

If there is panic and risk aversion, the price of oil will rise very fast again.


Let us look at a 20 year chart for oil prices:

(http://deviantinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/F-Crude2.jpg)

(the blue vertical lines that occur every 83 months – about every 7 years; the last two important lows were late 2001 and late 2008)


And there are unexpected developments: Russia to launch its own crude benchmark in 2016.

"Our goal is to take a place among the major indicators. Currently, the pricing for most of our oil exports which as well determines our budget, is in the hands of our partners.”

SPIMEX advisor Segey Kvartalnov


The West's biggest long-range fear is that Russia and China will increasingly back their currencies with gold rather than U.S. dollars, which would make them independent currencies rather than the dollar satellites they are at present.


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on January 14, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
Every us presidential cycle.  See the other, smaller dips?

Connect the dots.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 14, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
(http://www.gold-eagle.com/sites/default/files/kalin012515-1.jpg)

Money is gold, nothing else

J.P. Morgan, 1912


Let us translate this very important quote into the business language of today:

Gold Is Money, Everything Else Is Credit
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on January 14, 2016, 02:20:50 PM
And when gold is no longer valuable?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 14, 2016, 07:04:50 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/bb/f1/52/bbf15256ce289670818d3742425ef05f.jpg)


The only time when gold will not be valuable is in the case of a major geological/astronomical catastrophe.

Here is the price of gold for the past 100 years:

(http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2013/2/3949741_13601802785316_rId7.jpg)


In reference to the message I posted earlier today on oil prices, here is the relationship between gold and crude oil values:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg85493#msg85493

(http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2012/Dec/Free-Essay-2012-12-19-fig-1.png)

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on January 28, 2016, 06:30:05 PM
(http://hugelolcdn.com/i700/213589.jpg)

http://journal-neo.org/2015/12/22/erdogan-salman-and-the-coming-sunni-war-for-oil/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 04, 2016, 07:29:45 AM
(http://i.qkme.me/3oohp4.jpg)

Back on January 5, I wrote:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg84596#msg84596

May, very possible Kurdish referendum on independence


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-kurds-idUSKCN0VB2EY (Iraqi Kurdish leader calls for non-binding independence referendum - Feb. 2, 2016)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on February 04, 2016, 07:44:29 AM
Which has been called for before by that guy.

So people will continue to do what they've done before.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 04, 2016, 08:42:46 PM
(https://azizonomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/vladimir_putin.jpg)

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg84316#msg84316 (scenario #3, posted on January 3)

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/701220e1096f4fa890aefdd6646904c8/saudi-official-says-kingdom-ready-send-troops-syria
http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-02-04/saudi-official-says-kingdom-ready-to-send-troops-to-syria
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on February 05, 2016, 09:58:05 AM
(https://azizonomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/vladimir_putin.jpg)

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg84316#msg84316 (scenario #3, posted on January 3)

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/701220e1096f4fa890aefdd6646904c8/saudi-official-says-kingdom-ready-send-troops-syria
http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-02-04/saudi-official-says-kingdom-ready-to-send-troops-to-syria

Incursion into Iraq was your scenario 3, not assisting with the syrian civl war (like half the world).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 06, 2016, 07:24:08 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/putin2.jpg?w=620)

Feel free to use the available space in this thread to offer your own predictions and your own analysis of the events taking place in the Middle East.

Scenario #3 included the fact that a new Sunni state will be created, being carved out of eastern Syria: exactly the aim of the new possible arabian coalition incursion.


In the messages posted on December 1 and December 10, I reminded everyone of the fact that also Turkey is preparing to invade northern Syria.

Turkish MP and member of the country’s main opposition party warned that the probability of Turkey’s military invading Syria is increasing.

Erdogan Toprak, member of the Republican People’s Party (CHP) who has served as the MP for Istanbul’s third electoral district since 2011, pointed out that the recent visit of the Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu to Saudi Arabia has strangely coincided with the start of the Syrian peace talks in Geneva, as well as with the worsening of Ankara’s relations with Moscow following the alleged violation of Turkish airspace by a Russian Su-34 warplane.

In a weekly report by the parliamentary team he leads, Toprak also noted that President Erdogan’s visit to Riyadh in December 2015 was immediately followed by an announcement heralding the creation of the Islamic military coalition, and that Turkey immediately offered to join it.


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 09, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/putin-1.jpg?w=486&h=486)

What would happen if Turkey invades Syria from the north, and the multinational coalition marches into Syria from the south?

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/week-seventeen-of-the-russian-intervention-in-syria-does-erdogan-want-war-with-russia/

Now, it is well known that Arab and Turkish operatives are already on the ground, in Syria.

The analysts who wonder why the Israeli air force (400 F-16/F-15 fighters) or Turkey's air force (some 240 F-16 fighters) would let the Russians settle in at the Khmeimim base (S-400 unit and some 16 very advanced fighters), must understand that they had no choice: Russia has at its disposal the formidable scalar ether weapons discussed earlier in this thread.

Of course, this brings up the question: why would Nato want a war with Russia at any cost? Even if Nato allies itself with China and then begin a synchronous attack on Russia, they would stand no chance at all against the scalar weaponry employed by the Russian Ministry of Defense.

Therefore something else must be going on: a certain knowledge, of a certain kind of event, which would presumably offer some kind of an advantage in case of a large scale war. However, the nature of this event makes it very difficult to predict in advance which areas of the world would be affected most, and which ones would be affected least.

Some financial analysts have correctly noticed that now it is possible for the Fed to raise rates (this time around they will not save Wall Street) and also for the dollar to weaken (as China and Russia back their currency with gold); they think that while there might not a repeat of the Great Depression, there will certainly be no economic collapse looming in the near future.

This view fails to take into account the fact that the great economic/financial decisions taken over the past 100 years, were made by people who had a foreknowledge of that certain event described above.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on February 09, 2016, 01:38:19 PM
So, why hasn't Russia taken over the world with Scalar Weapons?
Or defeated the US during the cold war?
Or done.. Well, anything productive?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: andruszkow on February 09, 2016, 03:53:32 PM
Formidable scalar ether weapons? Care to explain what that is?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on February 09, 2016, 04:10:35 PM
Formidable scalar ether weapons? Care to explain what that is?

Basically EMP and Radar.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on February 09, 2016, 05:28:37 PM
Formidable scalar ether weapons? Care to explain what that is?

Magic superweapons which blew up Tunguska, that factory in China and apparently haven't been used since in any Soviet or Soviet-backed conflict. Don't ask. Just smile and nod.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 09, 2016, 09:07:25 PM
Formidable scalar ether weapons? Care to explain what that is?

Magic superweapons which blew up Tunguska, that factory in China and apparently haven't been used since in any Soviet or Soviet-backed conflict. Don't ask. Just smile and nod.

Do not tempt me to bring here the entire Tunguska file, the fact the that the explosion which occurred on June 30, 1908, at that location, was seen all the way from London, with a curvature of over 4000 km to count, it was seen from every major capital of Europe also...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 13, 2016, 02:25:32 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/putin1-e1401040739164.jpg?w=187&h=298&crop=1)(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/img_10006469458453.jpeg?w=425&h=298&crop=1)

Operation North Thunder

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/02/09/449380/Saudi-Arabia-military-maneuver-North-Thunder

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on February 15, 2016, 10:07:49 AM
(http://cdn.topwar.ru/uploads/images/2014/557/oenu510.jpg)

There is a less obvious consequence to the entire situation in Syria: the Syrian army is exhausted by the prolonged war, the heavy losses, the weakening of the combat potential.

This is the reason why only now the Arab coalition and Turkey are threatening to invade Syria.

It would mean some kind of a conflict in the Black Sea between Russia and Turkey, with Nato intervening on the behalf of Turkey.

On Monday, February 8, Russia’s defense minister, Army-General Sergei Shoigu, announced that the military forces of the Southern and Central Military districts, the Aerospace Forces (Vozdushno Kosmicheskikh Sil—VKS) the airborne troops (Vozdushno Desantnye Voyska—VDV), the military transport air force (Voenno Transportnaya Aviatsiya—VTA), the Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla were being mobilized for full battle readiness. The VKS will, according to Shoigu, “prepare to perform massive air raids and to repel massive air attacks” while army units and the VDV are testing the ability of rapid long-distance deployment.

The massive mobilization of forces and their forward deployment began without prior warning. Shoigu ordered his deputy Anatoly Antonov—a career diplomat employed by the defense ministry since February 2011—to “inform foreign military attachés about the snap battle readiness exercise” as it was already in progress (Mil.ru, February 8 ).

The use of military maneuvers as a covert prelude to war is traditionally seen by Russian generals as the best way to achieve strategic and tactical surprise. Military exercises can disguise the massive prewar troop movement that would otherwise be virtually impossible to hide.


Of course, if the Sunnis invade Syria with an army of 150,000 military personnel and hundreds of airplanes, it will be able to reach Damascus very fast, even if Russia responds with an air campaign. This means that Iran will be forced to intervene, by invading Syria from southern Iraq.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on March 04, 2016, 11:17:12 AM
(https://aamichael666.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/russian-gas-match-co-ukraine-syria.png?w=670&h=205)


The gas pipeline wars:

(http://www.mintpressnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/QatarTurkeyGasLine_01.png)

Notice that the Saudi/Qatari pipeline could very well run through Jordan and northern Lebanon; that is why they need some kind of safe territory in the southern part of Syria.

In May we have the Eager Lion games in Jordan (held every year, for two weeks).


March 3, 2016: massive power blackout across Syria

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35717532

As someone pointed out, this power blackout could have been used to infiltrate strategic special forces into Syria.


Another commentator wrote:

The thought of major world powers, who are all aligned on the new macroeconomic and monetary mandates, allowing this regional conflict to spiral into a world war is unrealistic.  The conclusions of so many have predicted such an outcome, but the consequences of such an outcome would work against the larger monetary and geopolitical mandates.

The recent ceasefire which has been implemented by both Russia and the United States is telling of the direction in which major world powers would like to see things go.



Extremely few people understand the astronomical/geological context in which we find ourvselves, and that the decisions to go or not to go to war, taken by the West, are based almost exclusively on these kinds of considerations, that is why the others will be surprised most of all when war does break out (in order to bring Iran's ground forces into Syria).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 08, 2016, 06:22:00 PM
But it is consumption. All carriers and jets do is suck up resources and scare Argentina into not attacking piddling islands in the middle of nowhere. They're the exact opposite of an investment, they reward absolutely nothing while sucking up resources. And their role in modern warfare is extremely questionable.
I know this. But that's how we are now wasting our money. Its a lot more politically palatable.

It looks like you guys are in relative agreement, but for some reason trying to avoid that revelation for whatever reason lol...

Thork is absolutely right from what I can tell about appeasing the military industrial complex, and we can look even deeper into every other large budget item and tax loophole and how it benefits one of our many other patented corporate cartels.

In other words, "SHIT SUCKS!"
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on March 16, 2016, 06:57:12 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/putin-shades.jpg?w=620)

http://www.defensenews.com/story/war-in-syria/2016/03/15/jordan-russian-drawdown-plan-syria/81809748/

(http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/rrss3.jpg)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 04, 2016, 05:39:32 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/putin-2.jpg?w=386&h=271)

The recent combat maneuvers in the Baltic Sea have everything to do with the mysterious object discovered at the bottom of the Bothnian Sea.

US/Nato warships have converged in the Baltic Sea region cutting off all international shipping traffic to the site.

Reports from the Russian Ministry of Defense say that this object is either a German UFO or a top secret project leftover of the Vril society.


Here is the sign of power:

(http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/02/Donald-Trump-Ted-Cruz-AP-640x480.jpg)

(https://veritasvincitinternational.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/screen-shot-2015-01-18-at-10-33-46-pm1.png?w=423&h=318)

Cruz was the original choice to be the nominee of the Republican party.

An excellent chance to regain the majority in the House, a very good chance to have a majority in the Senate (an opportunity which arises once every 25 years).

Then the narrative suddenly changed, after March 30 (date of the mysterious death of Jean Lapierre, founder of Bloc Quebecois, who was supposed to meet on that day with top representatives from the Trump campaign).

Cruz did not receive the help he was supposed to have received in the NE (they did help him in Maine earlier), and was forced to make a VP choice which was totally unnecessary (at this stage of the game) and unproductive.

Even with a loss in IN, things could have turned around in CA, with a possibility of a very serious floor fight in Cleveland to gain the nomination.

Yet, he gave up much too easily (let us remember that this is the person who shut down the government back in 2013).


Why would the GOP put up with this ordeal? While Trump was reading his "foreign policy" speech from the teleprompter it became obvious that he contradicted himself every five minutes or so, and that none of his ideas were going to become reality. He won't be able to work either with the Democrats or with the hostile elements within his "own" party.

Here are the powerful people who set Trump up decades ago:

http://americanfreepress.net/who-towers-behind-trump/?print=print

Now the Democrats are going to use Trump to blast their republican opponents in the House/Senate races (and more):

http://www.redstate.com/joesquire/2016/05/02/arkansas-democrat-features-trumps-anti-woman-remarks-new-senate-ad/

Many republicans will be forced to run anti-Trump ads to try to remedy the situation.


And, for those who don't know, Christie and Trump are cousins:  paternal line of his Scottish born great-grandfather, James H. Christie.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: İntikam on May 04, 2016, 07:05:36 AM
As a man from Turkey i can easily say that Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia are supporting clearly to ISIS that ally of USA; USA, UK, France and the others supporting secretly.

No one fighting against ISIS really except Iraq Army, Syria Army and Hizbullah.

I was told an Russian site last year that why don't you drop a "nuclear bomb to Rakka" that everybody knows that there is the capital of the terrorism. Are the "Hiroshima and Nagazaki people was guilty more than the Rakka people?" . After that Putin said "we can use nuclear for ISIS" but they never do that. Insomuch as, nobody bombed to Rakka seriously which city that everbody know that the capital city of the terrorism. Remember whats happened to Baghdat was a normal city that USA dropped tens of tousends bombs there and all of the government buildings were down.


Neither turkey nor America nor Europe, nor Russia bombed the Raqqa realistically.

All of the world fighting against two countries that Syria and Iraq. So i'm as a Turk that supporting Syrian Army and the world's best leader that i believe that Beshar Assad that a ophthalmologist as a normal human.

Hope you see the truth too.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on May 04, 2016, 02:24:43 PM
I appreciate how sandokhan used this thread to bypass his commitment to not post in the election thread for a while.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on May 04, 2016, 02:58:53 PM
I appreciate how sandokhan used this thread to bypass his commitment to not post in the election thread for a while.

I'm glad though, it's a good catch. Although I don't how exclusive of a club it can be with absolute goofballs like Cruz in it.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 05, 2016, 05:42:07 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/putin.jpg?w=263&h=407)


I guess neither have been paying their dues to the secret society.


“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people”

T. Roosevelt


“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”

W. Wilson



The top leadership of Isil consists entirely of Chechens.

Erdogan has to deal continuously with the faction which controls the military (this faction is made up of people who are not ethnically turks).
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: İntikam on May 05, 2016, 08:56:06 AM
Dicdator Erdogan is Georgian like Stallin. Probably his grandsun because the mentality is same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTaiKr2ZJXI
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 05, 2016, 12:38:55 PM
“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people”

T. Roosevelt

In context (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/tr-progressive/), he was referring to political parties:

Quote from: Theodore Roosevelt
Political parties exist to secure responsible government and to execute the will of the people.

From these great tasks both of the old parties have turned aside. Instead of instruments to promote the general welfare, they have become the tools of corrupt interests which use them impartially to serve their selfish purposes. Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”

W. Wilson

In context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Business_and_economics/Selected_quote/47), he was referring to big business and monopolies:

Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. They know that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be, that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from under him and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the new man's wares.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 05, 2016, 03:13:53 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/putin.jpg)

https://archive.org/stream/NationalEconomyAndTheBankingSystemOfTheUnitedStates/NationalEconomyAndTheBankingSystem#page/n105/mode/2up

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.

W. Wilson


http://www.authentichistory.com/1898-1913/2-progressivism/5-wilson/19120800_Progressive_Covenant_With_The_People-Theodore_Roosevelt-lyrics.html

T. Roosevelt used this speech to issue a dire warning about an "invisible government" which really has true ruling power.


There are plenty of other quotes of similar warnings spoken by past presidents.


Here is a quote posted today on redstate:

The one thing I don't understand is how the RNC could let Trump run as a Republican.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 06, 2016, 12:46:18 AM
I appreciate you not adding the bullshit "I am a most unhappy man..." introduction to the Wilson quote that indicates he regretted the passing of the Federal Reserve (in fact, the quote actually precedes the creation of the Federal Reserve, meaning that Wilson would have seen them as the solution, not the problem), but I don't see how this advances your argument.  The warnings from Wilson and Roosevelt are about two different things - corporations having too much power and political parties having too much power, respectively.  Other presidents have warned against still different problems (Eisenhower and the military-industrial complex, for example).  You can't just attribute all these competing interests to being part of the same amorphous faction of generic villains.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on May 06, 2016, 02:43:44 PM
please do not listen to shill-andokhan.  classic distraction scenario.  the actual secret sign is a hand to the ear.

(http://i.imgur.com/icnMxUq.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/hDiizzM.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/OkUdfdb.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/wJNm1hy.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/LaT9Zq6.jpg?2)(http://i.imgur.com/ydWdXA3.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/vm31nXV.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/dujmDNB.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/griogvR.jpg?1)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 12, 2016, 03:53:05 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CsrhbFUqLGw/UPkndDKGV8I/AAAAAAABZcU/ssK7S_GXJ50/s1600/russian_bear_by_neradzinsky-d30x0e1.jpg)

Lord James of Blackheath, 2010:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEPEhLfxA0&feature=youtu.be


http://www.billionairesnewswire.com/foundation-x/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326945/Completely-genuine-The-shadowy-organisation-wants-UK-billions-NOTHING.html


This same Foundation X is aiding D. Trump in his bid for the Presidency.


Why is the mass-media bent on portraying Trump's plan to deal with the Fed as ludicrous?

Because it is a plan put forward by the Foundation X and it actually would work.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/donald-trumps-unusual-plan-eliminate-the-national-debt

It involves more than what is described in the article above: it is a plan to circumvent the Fed, and print one's own money.


Of course, there is a catch to it.

It is too good to be true.

This is why I said that I am still waiting to find out the reason why the GOP let Trump use their party as a platform.
Title: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on May 12, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
Sandokhan, why don't you just go back to posting in the election thread. Your post makes no sense within the context of this thread's subject...
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 12, 2016, 04:01:26 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/putin-love.jpg)

Given the fact that I did post here more than 30 messages, some if not most of them containing valuable information, I can be permitted to post just this once here the material on the Foundation X, which I view as being very important.

Should the need arise to post further comments on the election process, I will use some other related thread, but not the 2016... thread: a promise is a promise.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on May 12, 2016, 04:06:49 PM
That last picture makes it okay. I'll forgive you.

Of course, you can post wherever you'd like. It just may be confusing for some people.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 19, 2016, 08:20:59 AM
(http://allnewspipeline.com/images/THIRDTERM.jpg)

Eager Lion games, 2016:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2016-05/18/c_135369534.htm


http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/04/al-qaeda-is-about-to-establish-an-emirate-in-northern-syria/


http://aranews.net/2016/05/us-backed-syrian-democratic-forces-launch-battle-raqqa-expel-isis-de-facto-capital/

to be compared with this...

https://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/the-race-for-raqqa-and-americas-geopolitical-revenge-in-syraq/


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on May 29, 2016, 08:41:17 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/russia-usa-america.jpg?w=592&h=333)


Few historians remember or understand that Isil's declared goal, its most important mission/target, was to get to Mecca and Kaaba.


And even fewer people know that 3,000 Chechens (some from Dagestan) have gone to fight for their cause in Syria and Iraq since 2011.


http://www.redstate.com/diary/blbennett/2016/05/28/flash-report-delegates-enough-votes-nominate-cruz-1st-ballot/

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/05/republican-nomination-donald-trump-campaign-state-primaries-delegates-convention
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on June 19, 2016, 04:56:48 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/putin-russia.jpg?w=397&h=588)

"Like Zarqawi’s al-Qaeda in Iraq before them, “ISIS intends to trigger a full-fledged civil war in Iraq,” says Ahmed Ali of the Institute for the Study of War. “For ISIS, the fastest mechanism to trigger the civil war would be by targeting the al-Askari shrine in Samarra and other shrines in Iraq. In essence, ISIS seeks to replicate the post-shrine attack environment of 2006.”
In my opinion, with their military setback in Syria and their continuing powerlessness against Iran's growing strength in the region, they may now be taking the fight into Iraq. And similar to what they are doing in Ukraine with Russia, they may also be trying to pull Iran into the fight in Iraq."


"Now I have a strong gut feeling that there is something very big, very dramatic building in world oil markets over the coming several months, something most of the world doesn’t expect.
Those trends are to be seen everywhere, but in the midst of anti-Russian propaganda, Western newsmakers prefer to keep quiet about these facts, in particular, when inflation is skyrocketing in the United States.
It’s becoming clearer by the day that the schemers in Washington and their oligarchical backers in Wall Street and Big Oil are setting the stage for something very big and very dramatic in the coming few months in the Middle East."


Trump said: "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a good relationship with Russia?"

Trump said: "First of all, you never have to default because you print the money"


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436428/republican-convention-delegates-not-bound-donald-trump?target=author&tid=1048&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/282637-carville-theres-some-chance-trump-isnt-nominee

http://www.redstate.com/diary/chadb/2016/06/06/delegates-unbound/

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/donald-trump-convention-block-gop-insiders-224152

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/17/uh-oh-new-gop-rules-committee-chair-for-the-convention-probably-isnt-the-person-trump-would-have-chosen/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on July 06, 2016, 08:48:02 AM
(http://www.asianews.it/files/img/PUTIN_(F)_0927_-_Putin_e_Kirill.jpg)


Quote
Few historians remember or understand that Isil's declared goal, its most important mission/target, was to get to Mecca and Kaaba.

http://news.antiwar.com/2016/07/05/bombings-in-saudi-arabia-mark-another-isis-escalation/


http://hotair.com/archives/2016/07/05/was-hillarys-fbi-interview-this-weekend-just-for-appearances-sake/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on July 06, 2016, 02:56:11 PM
In context (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/tr-progressive/), he was referring to political parties:

Quote from: Theodore Roosevelt
Political parties exist to secure responsible government and to execute the will of the people.

From these great tasks both of the old parties have turned aside. Instead of instruments to promote the general welfare, they have become the tools of corrupt interests which use them impartially to serve their selfish purposes. Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.


No. He was referring to the "corrupt interests" which use them.

What is your goal in twisting and contorting this quote? What do you have to gain, and what does it do to advance the conversation?
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: George on July 06, 2016, 05:08:07 PM
No shit, he was talking about how political parties are used by certain people?  And here I thought he meant that parties are sentient beings doing all these things of their own accord, with no human involvement whatsoever. ::)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on July 07, 2016, 03:32:30 PM
No shit, he was talking about how political parties are used by certain people?  And here I thought he meant that parties are sentient beings doing all these things of their own accord, with no human involvement whatsoever. ::)

No. You implicitly denied the existence of any behind the scenes entity that operates outside of law and public interest.

Don't switch it up now because your reading comprehension is shit.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: George on July 07, 2016, 06:07:00 PM
Yes, political parties as an abstract concept are harmless.  They have to be used by people in a certain way before they become dangerous and a threat to democracy.  Thank you for establishing this very important point.  By the same token, I should clarify that Wilson's quote was referring to the people who run big business and monopolies, not big business and monopolies in and of themselves.  For the benefit of all the readers who were confused by my interpretation of those quotes.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on July 18, 2016, 05:57:30 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/cne4e5iwgaa4uda-large.jpg?w=349&h=485)

“I am sure that the coup [in Turkey] has a lot of influences from the outside…. It is now clear that the Russian plane was taken down by the pilot who belonged to the same group as those behind the coup, and now that Turkey renewed its ties with Russia, it clearly did not suit someone.” (Serbian FM)

Let us remember that back in March an article entitled "Could there be a coup in Turkey?" was published by the AEI.

1. Back in March 2016, the Pentagon had already given orders to some 700 US military families and civilians from Adana, Izmir and Mugla, as well as the Incirlik air base to evacuate Turkey due to some ‘security concerns’.

2. When Gülen fled Turkey to avoid prosecution for treason in 1998, he chose not to go to any of a dozen Islamic countries which could have offered him asylum; he chose instead the United States.


Obviously someone saved Erdogan while he was being attacked in the town of Marmaris where he was vacationing.

And that someone could have been either the CIA, the MI6 or the GRU. Since the department of defense of Turkey is controlled by NATO (given the importance of the Incirlik base), and the military institution is associated with the coup, that someone looks like it was the GRU.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on July 19, 2016, 05:05:44 PM
(http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/gghh4.jpg)

The lingering question is this: why didn't the F16 fighters shoot down the airplane which carried Ergodan to Istanbul?

Now we know that the pilots were ordered to immediately abort their mission and return to the Incirlik base.

The Russians were surveilling the entire operation carried out by the other agencies; Putin ordered the immediate activation of the S-500 air defense system to down every hostile aircraft over Turkey, Syria, Iraq and every single Nato satellite flying in low orbit.

This is when the entire coup operation was abandoned.


It is interesting to note that a well-known prophecy from the Vatopedi monastery says that a great war will start in Europe when Turkey will invade Greece.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on July 20, 2016, 07:32:42 PM
(http://obamaconspirators.org/wp-content/uploads/2875BC3400000578-0-image-m-29_1431159612825-470x260.jpg)

If the prophecy concerning the conflict between Turkey and Greece is to be fulfilled, that means this coup was only a dry run: using the 14 missing Turkish warships, another attack could be launched to install a new leadership.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on July 25, 2016, 09:02:13 AM
(https://kurdishguid.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/kurdistan-map.jpg?w=1200)

As the low and surplus population of the different nations of Europe will be carried into that country [USA]; it is and will be a receptacle for the bad and disaffected population of Europe, when they are not wanted for soldiers, or to supply the navies, and the European governments will favor such a course. This will create a surplus and majority of low population, who are so very easily excited  and they will bring with them their principles, and in nine cases out of ten, adhere to their ancient and former governments, laws, manners, and religion, and will transmit them to their posterity, and in many cases propagate them among the natives. These men will become citizens, and by the constitution and laws, will be invested with the right of suffrage. The different grades of society will then be created by the elevation of a few and by degrading many, and thus a heterogeneous population will then be formed, speaking different languages, and of different religions and sentiments, and to make them act, think, and feel alike, in political affairs, will be like mixing oil and water; hence discord, dissension, anarchy and civil war will ensue, and some popular individual will assume the government and restore order, and the sovereigns of Europe, the immigrants, and many of the natives will sustain him.

Duke of Richmond (1855)


A civil war will occur concomitantly with an economic depression. The target population of Donald Trump's "I am your voice" speech is the same as the main purpose/designed goal of the destruction inflicted by the Civil War: the white protestants of the South (now together with the blue collar workers of the north-central states). It seems that they are being set up for some kind of a very disappointing event, which will spark outrage and revolt.

Conversely, should a Republican win the White House, the Catholic population (especially/mainly Hispanics) will revolt and cause a civil war, particularly given the high probability of a massive economic downturn.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on August 01, 2016, 10:39:58 AM
(http://redefininggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/bromance.jpg)

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/iraq-offensive-2016-mosul-islamic-state-isis-isil-obama-foreign-policy-kurdish-214121
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on August 22, 2016, 07:22:14 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/russia-putin.jpg?w=603&h=482)

http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/breaking-us-occupation-of-syria-now.html
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: İntikam on August 31, 2016, 07:10:30 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/cne4e5iwgaa4uda-large.jpg?w=349&h=485)

“I am sure that the coup [in Turkey] has a lot of influences from the outside…. It is now clear that the Russian plane was taken down by the pilot who belonged to the same group as those behind the coup, and now that Turkey renewed its ties with Russia, it clearly did not suit someone.” (Serbian FM)

Let us remember that back in March an article entitled "Could there be a coup in Turkey?" was published by the AEI.

1. Back in March 2016, the Pentagon had already given orders to some 700 US military families and civilians from Adana, Izmir and Mugla, as well as the Incirlik air base to evacuate Turkey due to some ‘security concerns’.

2. When Gülen fled Turkey to avoid prosecution for treason in 1998, he chose not to go to any of a dozen Islamic countries which could have offered him asylum; he chose instead the United States.


Obviously someone saved Erdogan while he was being attacked in the town of Marmaris where he was vacationing.

And that someone could have been either the CIA, the MI6 or the GRU. Since the department of defense of Turkey is controlled by NATO (given the importance of the Incirlik base), and the military institution is associated with the coup, that someone looks like it was the GRU.

Actually the war on Turkey and the middle east between FBI/Pentagon vs CIA.

CIA strongly supporting Gulen and terror groups like PYD, ISIS and FSA.

Obama/FBI/Pentagon supported Turkey government supports only FSA and fighting against Gulen, PYD and ISIS.

Russia and USA government clearly attacking to ISIS and Russia attacking everything on Syria except Turkey and Syrian army.

Actually Russia and USA have some coordination on, but CIA not. CIA completely on out of the game.

CIA organizating the illegal structures but other are fighting to them. For example Preet Bharara an FBI public prosecutor caught to "Reza Zarrab" who money laundering within under information of the CIA. Yesterday Reza Zarrab accused to judge as the member of the "Gülen's organization". Actually he blamed the CIA. Because all of these organization done with under the information of CIA.

Anyway.

People are still dying, buildings are still destroyed. All of them only just for a bit petroleum. in this case , the endpoint might come of human folly . America in terms of oil , worth more than some people's lives.

America living her last times. Power moving to China from America. So America firing his last bullets. So does the obvious crimes. all of these  to convince the world to the downfall of America.

The global capital settled to Andalusian and Andalusian had been the world super power.

The global capital lefted to Andalusian and Andalusian had been demolished.

Then the global capital settled to Ottoman and Ottoman had been the world super power.

The global capital lefted to Ottoman and Ottoman had been demolished.

Then the global capital settled to Germany and Germany had been the world super power.

The global capital lefted to Germany and Germany had been demolished.

Then the global capital settled to USA and USA had been the world super power.

The global capital lefted to USA and the time started for USA to it's demolishing.

Now the global capital moving to China the new center of the world. So the USA will be demolished . There is no other alternative.

With or withoud Essad, with or without Erdoghan, USA will be demolished. this situation is convincing , fair and consistent.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 02, 2016, 04:48:03 PM
(http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/CRIMEA-BEAR-GALLERY.jpg)

Unbeknownst to most people who research conspiracies, the US government has been very busy building underground facilities for the past 50 years (some 120 such bases).

That means they know something the Chinese do not, concerning certain events which will occur in the future.



Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 02, 2016, 06:40:24 PM
Mostly Nuclear test facilities.
Training facilities.

The reason is...
*pause for effect*

THE SPACE RACE!

See, once stuff got put into space, you can't stop being spied on.  So what are ya gonna do?
Build underground.
In mountains.
Places that a satellite can't see.


So really, there's no mystery here (even if your numbers are accurate).  I mean, the Russians built several hundred in the last 50 years too.  You don't see people talking about that either.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 02, 2016, 08:39:29 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/5GmF6fL.jpg)

You seem to forget that there are no nuclear weapons/testing facilities, which means these underground bases have been built for a very different purpose altogether.

Let us take as an example Mount Weather:

https://usahitman.com/mount-weather/

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: garygreen on September 02, 2016, 10:24:32 PM
i've conducted several off-the-record interviews with officials formerly associated with mount weather, and, speaking in the promise of strictest anonymity, they informed me that mount weather is a luxury vacation resort.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2016, 02:51:42 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/5GmF6fL.jpg)

You seem to forget that there are no nuclear weapons/testing facilities, which means these underground bases have been built for a very different purpose altogether.

Let us take as an example Mount Weather:

https://usahitman.com/mount-weather/ (https://usahitman.com/mount-weather/)


Quote
In the event of nuclear war...
Case point.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 03, 2016, 05:52:57 AM
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I-gCYciz7wo/V8AsgrsGrhI/AAAAAAACXog/9_d8wAfkmcce9Z8P3kmphYYCyoPhPFRJACLcB/s1600/PUTIN5307e_1.jpg)


It is not the first time in history, that massive underground facilities have been built in anticipation of a great geological/astronomical cataclysm.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1488591#msg1488591

How did the builders of these magnificient structures KNOW in advance when a certain astronomical event will take place, which would have affected to a great extent the surface of the Earth?

There are no nuclear weapons: I have already explained in great detail how a nuclear plant/reactor works.

Therefore, Mount Weather was built, not in anticipation of a massive fire bombing campaign, or an earthquake,  but for something much more important.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2016, 06:57:57 AM
It is not the first time in history, that massive underground facilities have been built in anticipation of a great geological/astronomical cataclysm.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1488591#msg1488591 (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1488591#msg1488591)

How did the builders of these magnificient structures KNOW in advance when a certain astronomical event will take place, which would have affected to a great extent the surface of the Earth?

There are no nuclear weapons: I have already explained in great detail how a nuclear plant/reactor works.

Therefore, Mount Weather was built, not in anticipation of a massive fire bombing campaign, or an earthquake,  but for something much more important.
Considering we're still here, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that whatever great cataclysm they thought would happen, didn't.  Of course, the only real astronomical issues we need to worry about are asteroids, and maybe rogue planets/stars.  Beyond that, we're pretty good for the next few billion years.


As for Mount Weather:
Don't care.  I would be very surprised if underground shelter cities didn't exist for one reason or another.  It doesn't hurt to be prepared, after all.  But I doubt that anyone knows when or what such an event will be.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 03, 2016, 11:18:48 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/putin-russia-america-washington.jpg?w=402&h=330)

Beyond that, we're pretty good for the next few billion years.

The scholarly world assumed that in some hundreds of millions of years the heat of the sun would be exhausted, and then, as Flammarion frightened his readers, the last pair of human beings would freeze to death in the ice of the equator. But this is far off in the future. In view of modern knowledge that heat is discharged in the process of breaking up atoms, scientists are now prepared to credit the sun with an immense reserve of heat. The fear, if any, is focused on the possibility that the sun may explode; a few minutes later the earth will become aware of this, and  soon thereafter will no longer exist. But the one end, that of freezing, is very remote; the other end, that of explosion, is very improbable; and the world is thought to have billions of peaceful years ahead. It is believed that the world has gone through eons of undisturbed evolution, and equally long eons are before us. Man can go far in such a span of time, considering that his entire civilization has endured less than ten thousand years, and in view of the great technological progress he has made in the last century.

The average man is no longer afraid of the end of the world. Man clings to his earthly possessions, registers his landholdings and fences them in; peoples carry on wars to preserve and to enlarge their historical frontiers. Yet the last five or six thousand years have witnessed a series of major catastrophes, each of which displaced the borders of the seas, and some of which caused sea-beds and continents to interchange places, submerging kingdoms, and creating space for new ones.
Cosmic collisions are not divergent phenomena, or phenomena that, in the opinion of some modern philosophers, take place in defiance of what is supposed to be physical laws; they are more in the nature of occurrences implicit in the dynamics of the universe, or, in terms of that philosophy, convergent phenomena.

I. Velikovsky (Worlds in Collision)


Here are two works which will help you to understand that there have been major geological cataclysms in the past 5000 years (official chronology of history):

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/earth-upheaval.pdf

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1546053#msg1546053

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 22, 2016, 06:35:05 AM
(http://cde.peru21.pe/ima/0/0/3/3/5/335695.jpg)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/world/middleeast/obama-syria-kurds-isis-turkey-military-commandos.html?_r=0

If there was no Isil in the middle east right now, the territory previously held by the islamic state would be taken over by the Kurds.

It seems that there two main factions of the US government fighting in Syraq: the Pentagon which does support the Kurds, the CIA which helps several islamist fronts.

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 23, 2016, 09:46:53 AM
(http://thesaker.is/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/word-image5.jpeg)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 24, 2016, 05:53:13 AM
(http://redefininggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/dabiqaleppo.png)

(http://redefininggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/turkeydabiq.png)
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on September 26, 2016, 12:20:39 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/assad-syria.jpg?w=572&h=403)

The SAA launches an all out attack on Aleppo:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UQG8z45nnnI/V-ZrpHvYWFI/AAAAAAAAD9s/5e1P_Enjl9IuHmBFvgPRNcBfxpV2EloCQCLcB/s1600/14409554_1043126492475741_4352388778065543130_o.jpg)



Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 01, 2016, 06:58:01 AM
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/723/099/7bc.jpg)

Cui bono? Why such an amazingly crazy fury during 6 years (longer than both world wars) for a country like Syria (relatively small population, some oil but not in the big leagues). Greater Israel project? Pipelinistan projects from Qatar to go through Syria? Breaking the ‘croissant chiite’? A real envy to go to war with Russia but on neutral field if I can say?
Or maybe something else much bigger?


"On July 10th, 2002, neocon Laurent Murawiec, of the Hudson Institute and Committee on the Present Danger, was invited to speak before Richard Perle’s Defense Policy Board to explain that Saudi Arabia represented “the prime mover, the most dangerous opponent”, and to recommend that the U.S. army invade it, occupy it and dismember it. He summarized his “Grand Strategy for the Middle East” by these words: “Iraq is the tactical pivot. Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot. Egypt the prize”.

All these wars and threats of wars under false pretexts in the wake of 9/11 betray a desire to inflame conflicts in the Middle East rather than to control resources, let alone encourage stability. Michael Ledeen himself declares in his article “The War on Terror will not end in Baghdad” in the Wall Street Journal, on September 4th, 2002: “We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia: we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize”."

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 04, 2016, 06:21:28 AM
(http://thesaker.is/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/putin56-864x400_c.jpg)

http://thesaker.is/latest-developments-in-northern-syria-the-race-for-al-bab-and-the-debacle-of-euphrates-shield-map-included/
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 14, 2016, 02:50:02 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/putin-washington-white-house.jpg?w=620)

http://katehon.com/article/yemens-hidden-war-secret-war-territorial-restoration
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 15, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/putin.jpg?w=559&h=343)

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/08/26/481761/Yemen-Saudi-Arabia-Aramco

Should Yemen use long range missiles/rockets to reach the Saudi oil facilities in full, the war could quickly escalate out of control.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 18, 2016, 01:13:12 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/putin-isis.jpg?w=620)

ISIS was originally a grassroots movement. It just so happened that some bakers of lavash bread, camel drivers, cattle herders and shepherds got together and decided to go and to conquer five modern sovereign states, because they are clearly the best camel drivers and sheep herders in the world.

It seems that if you tell this to any rational human being, that it’s not in a cartoon or fairytale, but in real life  that these bakers of lavash bread pounded into bits and pieces several countries with regular armies, with tanks, fighter jets, military intelligence, special forces, buses and bicycles…if you tell us all of these we would be laughing hard, because that’s impossible. And of course, this is impossible.

But, the InsteadOfOurMedia played with our minds so severely, that we actually believe this.



Isil, at its origins, strangely was linked to the Russian and Iranian secret services; its top military officers were actually Chechens, that is, Russian citizens.

And its original mission was to attack Saudi Arabia, the very reason the Saudis built the 600 mile wall in the north:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11344116/Revealed-Saudi-Arabias-Great-Wall-to-keep-out-Isil.html

Yet, something happened along the way: Isil somehow was infiltrated by the Western intelligence agencies.

The main beneficiaries in the region now are the Kurds.


Two key events which occurred in 1979 can explain the current situation in Syria and Yemen; one of which was dealt with here:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1805.msg81601#msg81601

The other one, the 1979 grand mosque seizure of mecca, is rarely remembered even by historians, and yet it provides the essential insights and information in understading what is really going on in the ME.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 19, 2016, 12:26:58 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/america-russia.jpeg?w=620)

Grand mosque seizure of Mecca, 1979:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1210185

The large bands of armed men who stormed Mecca and Medina in November 1979, had no idea (were not told) that the Saudis had been warned by the Soviet military intelligence service of the impending assault, and that the Saudis as a result had deployed ahead of time some 17,000 security personnel to deal with the problem.

But who could have planned such a revolt to take place at Mecca, using these attackers as a front cover?

It could not have been the Soviets, nor MI6 (Great Britain enjoyed a good relationship with the Saudis, even though it was left out of the Saudi oil fields deal after 1945), nor the CIA (the net price of Arab oil to petroleum companies of the USA was 5 cents a barrel, for 30 years, until king Faisal ended the deal).

And whoever planned the attack on Mecca was also heavily involved at that time in the American embassy takeover in Teheran.

Few historians understand that the plan to eliminate the Saudis and Khomeini (who was supposed to rule over Iran only for a couple of years) in 1979 was coming along very well, until the Soviets decided to interfere.

The plan was as follows:

a takeover of Mecca and Medina, while at the same time the oil fields of Saudi Arabia would be heavily bombarded

use these events to inflame Moslem rage against the West

followed by a huge deployment of American troops and equipment to Iran (using of course the hostages crisis as a cover), and actually take over the entire country, to be used as a base to attack the former Soviet Union

The only group of intelligence officers and generals who could have pulled this off was of course to be found within the Pentagon: they were ready to take both the Saudis and Khomeini out with no problem at all.

Fast forward 36 years into the future, and we find a very similar scenario developing in Syria and in Iraq: the Pentagon will act independently of the Executive Branch.


Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on October 29, 2016, 03:04:35 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/putin-obama-america.jpg?w=620)

There are reports that Isil has gotten hold of ground-to-ground missiles (500 km range) and plans to use them (Baghdad or even Jordan).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/24/fears-battle-for-mosul-open-new-front-wider-sunni-shia-conflict-iraq-turkey

http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/140920164


Could it be possible that Trump will betray the Russians, and actually escalate the conflicts in Syria and Iraq (and conceivably start a new one with Iran), not to mention Ukraine?

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Trumps-VP-Mike-Pence-Hails-Dick-Cheney-as-His-Role-Model-20160918-0020.html

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Dick-Cheney-Thinks-Trump-Can-Bring-US-Back-to-the-Dark-Side-20160506-0030.html

http://www.vox.com/2016/10/4/13170020/mike-pence-vice-presidential-debate-russia

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 11, 2016, 06:02:55 PM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/putin1.jpg?w=620)


http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/what-would-a-saudi-iran-war-look-like-dont-look-now-but-it-is-already-here
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on November 13, 2016, 01:53:13 PM
(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7434737.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/Boris-Johnson-Donald-Trump-and-Vladimir-Putin.jpg)

http://sanaacenter.org/publications/item/26-yemens_economic_collapse_and_impending_famine.html

“27 million Yemenis will get their food supplies thanks to their weapons, and the thousands of kilometers that separate them from their larger neighbor will not be immune to the economic consequences following the US-Saudi aggression”


Few Americans understand that the possibility of dealing with a Mike Pence presidency could become reality in the near future, under some definite number of scenarios.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: sandokhan on April 07, 2017, 05:59:27 AM
(https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/wp-1471230657644.jpg?w=620)

Each and every promise delivered by Trump during the presidential campaign has been either broken or forgotten.

Is there a deep division/struggle/contest between different factions in the CIA and the Pentagon? A faction which catapulted Trump all the way to the White House, and another one which wants to start a war in Europe with Russia at any cost (see the preparations underway in Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, the Baltic states).

Are we to explain the latest airstrikes in Syria as a desperate attempt by the faction which sides with Trump to start a war before the other side has a chance to deliver something much bigger in eastern Europe?

Let us go back to the question I posed more than one year ago: why would the GOP put up with Trump in the first place? Are we just now beginning to find out the answer to this question?

How many people know that Resorts Intl. was actually Meyer Lansky's pet project?

Is he part of the Gnostic Illuminati, or just a front man for the very powerful secret societies which have ruled the United States ever since 1832?

Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 07, 2017, 03:44:19 PM
Conspiracy drivel aside, I'm still interested in where you've managed to find all those dank Putin/Trump memes
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: junker on April 07, 2017, 04:21:46 PM
Conspiracy drivel aside, I'm still interested in where you've managed to find all those dank Putin/Trump memes
I've been asking as well... He's got the Putin meme market cornered.


...the very powerful secret societies which have ruled the United States ever since 1832?

hmm are sure it actually hasn't been since nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcer's table.
Title: Re: ISIS and the Middle East
Post by: drevko on April 12, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
ISIS are Kadyrov's troops and ex-KGB (Bathists officiales trained and supplied by the Soviets)

Asad supplied the "resistance" with russian weapons and explosives, they murdered thousands of American and allied soldiers and who know how many irakis.

Look at this mapa, in sykes picot the russians got northern Iraq, they are taking it again, through their "little green men" like in Crimea, their ISIL

This muslim elite troops didn't go to Ukraine, they went south to Iraq and Siria.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwZ1yWkhh_s