The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: ??? on March 12, 2019, 02:01:28 AM

Title: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: ??? on March 12, 2019, 02:01:28 AM
So I went to the frequently asked questions and it had a subsection on this. However, it didn't actually answer the question - it went on a tangent about how "we are not suggesting that space agencies are aware that the earth is flat and actively covering the fact up. They depict the earth as being round simply because that is what they expect it to be."
So does this mean that people have never been to space?
As I said, the answer doesn't really address the question, and just wondering what the answer is!
If you could help, that'd be great.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: SeaCritique on March 12, 2019, 03:20:40 AM
There was a paragraph (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions#People_have_been_into_space._How_have_they_not_discovered_that_the_earth_is_flat.3F) before the one you quoted:

"The most commonly accepted explanation of this is that the space agencies of the world are involved in a conspiracy faking space travel and exploration. This likely began during the Cold War's 'Space Race', in which the USSR and USA were obsessed with beating each other into space to the point that each faked their accomplishments in an attempt to keep pace with the other's supposed achievements. Since the end of the Cold War, however, the conspiracy is most likely motivated by greed rather than political gains, and using only some of their funding to continue to fake space travel saves a lot of money to embezzle for themselves."

Personally, I doubt the validity of any space program.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: TomFoolery on March 12, 2019, 04:59:13 AM
So I went to the frequently asked questions and it had a subsection on this. However, it didn't actually answer the question - it went on a tangent about how "we are not suggesting that space agencies are aware that the earth is flat and actively covering the fact up. They depict the earth as being round simply because that is what they expect it to be."
So does this mean that people have never been to space?
As I said, the answer doesn't really address the question, and just wondering what the answer is!
If you could help, that'd be great.

If you are prone to doubt that people have been to space, think again.
Remember the Concorde jet? that buzzard flew so high that it was practically in the same vacuum of space. At least 90% of the way there. That thing seriously could have maintained a living pressure inside the crew quarters while in space with a few modifications. And that was in 1965! So possible? Definitely. There's no space like home.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: Пардисфла on March 12, 2019, 07:10:55 AM

Remember the Concorde jet? that buzzard flew so high that it was practically in the same vacuum of space. At least 90% of the way there.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
During testing, Concorde F-WTSB attained the highest altitude recorded in sustained level flight of a passenger aircraft of 68,000 ft, in June 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line)

Are you trying to tell me that 20 km is 90% of 100 km?
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: ChrisTP on March 12, 2019, 09:24:33 AM
Parsifal, not all gradients are linear.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 12, 2019, 09:40:51 AM
Personally, I doubt the validity of any space program.
On what basis?
I mean, you were right in the other thread - I didn't see the shuttle launch "into space", but I did see it launch and I didn't see it land anywhere. And not in the way that I don't see a plane land anywhere, it went straight up (I don't remember if I saw its path curve as it starts to head into an orbit, obviously something going into orbit can't just go up). So rocket technology definitely exists, why would I doubt space travel is a thing? So many countries have launched things into space, private companies have started to get in on the act - some of them have been paid handsomely to launch satellites for people, you'd think that those people would soon realise that their satellite isn't working. Or is your suggestion that there is some alternative technology which multiple organisations and countries are using in lieu of satellites but for some weird reason they are pretending it's satellites?!

Obviously you can't be a flat earther and believe in space travel, but I haven't seen much basis for thinking that space travel doesn't exist other than rather large slices of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on March 12, 2019, 10:47:54 AM
So are we going to deny that Virgin Galactic Unity went up 51 or so miles? That's 83%.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: plebeian on March 12, 2019, 04:17:33 PM
In regards to the Concorde, and atmospheric pressure in general, 90% of the atmosphere is within the first 10% of its altitude.  You can not simply compare the service altitude of the Concorde to the theoretical altitude of space in the manner that you did when discussing pressure.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: TomFoolery on March 12, 2019, 04:43:16 PM

Remember the Concorde jet? that buzzard flew so high that it was practically in the same vacuum of space. At least 90% of the way there.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
During testing, Concorde F-WTSB attained the highest altitude recorded in sustained level flight of a passenger aircraft of 68,000 ft, in June 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line)

Are you trying to tell me that 20 km is 90% of 100 km?

How kind of you to grace my post with such a well researched reply!

So at 68,000 ft altitude, the air pressure is about 0.73 PSI.
Considering that sea-level air pressure is around 14.7 PSI, and space is around 0, we see that 0.73PSI is 5% of normal sea level air pressure.

So you're right I was wrong, the Concorde didn't fly in an atmospheric pressure that was 90% of the vacuum of space, it flew in conditions that was 95% of the vacuum of space!

Another 0.73psi less, and it *would* have been in space, but obviously it wouldn't have been flying.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: TomFoolery on March 12, 2019, 05:24:21 PM
In regards to the Concorde, and atmospheric pressure in general, 90% of the atmosphere is within the first 10% of its altitude.  You can not simply compare the service altitude of the Concorde to the theoretical altitude of space in the manner that you did when discussing pressure.

I don't see why not. As you should know, the air we breath is pressurized at about 14.7 pounds per square inch.
That literally means that if you closed the cap on a pop bottle and sent it to space, there would be air pressure inside it pressing out on all parts of the bottle -- 14.7 pounds on each square inch.
(Till it got cold and the air shrank but never mind that.)

So the real heart of the issue is whether or not the Concorde - or any manmade vessel - did or could withstand the vacuum of space with people onboard.

So the Concorde, flying at 68,000 feet, with 14.7 psi absolute inside, and 0.73 psi outside, had a pressure on its cabin walls of almost 14 psi!

By the way, people can survive in air pressures quite a bit below 14.7 psi.
In fact, a lot of older passenger jetliners actually fly with around 12 psi in the cabin.

So the body of the Concorde could very easily hold an air pressure that would very easily allow people to live quite comfortably whilst in space.

It is very meaningful to demonstrate that people have flown millions of flights in an aircraft that literally withstood 95% of the vacuum of space while maintaining 14.7psi in the cabin, and it very well could (structurally) have maintained a living cabin pressure of 12psi while in the total vacuum of space.

(Now obviously its engines and stuff were made for air breathing areas, but I'm talking about the cabin construction which had to handle the pressure differential of space.)
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: SeaCritique on March 13, 2019, 02:26:18 AM
On what basis?
I mean, you were right in the other thread - I didn't see the shuttle launch "into space", but I did see it launch and I didn't see it land anywhere. And not in the way that I don't see a plane land anywhere, it went straight up (I don't remember if I saw its path curve as it starts to head into an orbit, obviously something going into orbit can't just go up). So rocket technology definitely exists, why would I doubt space travel is a thing? So many countries have launched things into space, private companies have started to get in on the act - some of them have been paid handsomely to launch satellites for people, you'd think that those people would soon realise that their satellite isn't working. Or is your suggestion that there is some alternative technology which multiple organisations and countries are using in lieu of satellites but for some weird reason they are pretending it's satellites?!

Obviously you can't be a flat earther and believe in space travel, but I haven't seen much basis for thinking that space travel doesn't exist other than rather large slices of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

You don't remember if you saw its path curve or not, though. And if a Boeing 747 is a speck at seven miles up, imagine that a shuttle must be a much, much smaller (if not imperceptible) speck at 20, 30, 40 miles. I don't think your observations "definitely" confirm, nor do they deny, rocket technology. It's a big leap from rocket, or rocket-like, technology to space travel.

With governments and private companies launching satellites into space, that's a bit more complicated. I can see (what's known as) the ISS passing over head sometimes with my own two eyes. I imagine there is some stuff up there; I wouldn't call that a full-fledged space program. Maybe there exists an alternative technology, maybe not. I have no good reasons to think so. Clearly, the relationship between governments and private companies is mutually beneficial -- governments get lobbied by private companies which pay politicians handsomely, and said-politicians lighten up a bit on said-private companies and afford them some wiggle room.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: Balls Dingo on March 13, 2019, 12:20:25 PM
With governments and private companies launching satellites into space, that's a bit more complicated.

I just don't know how geostationary satellites exist in the FE model. Geostationary orbit makes sense with a rotating sphere because the satellites are constantly moving (in space, not in relation to a location on Earth). But to just sit stationary in the same place in space without drifting off? That defies all known physics. And we know they are there and we know that they are at an altitude of 36000km or we wouldn't get a TV signal when we point satellite dishes at the correct azimuth and elevation from different locations. Maybe they get stuck in the dome ;)
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 13, 2019, 03:59:31 PM
It's a big leap from rocket, or rocket-like, technology to space travel.

Is it, though? I mean, we can't fly into space using planes but there's a good reason for that. Planes require lift, generated by air flow over the wing.
No atmosphere = no lift.
This is where rockets win, they provide thrust regardless of whether there's an atmosphere. Rockets are the technology we need to get into space, and we demonstrably have it.

We went from the first powered flight in 1903 to the first supersonic flight in 1947, to Concorde in 1969.
[Note that one could argue that technology in this area never really moved on since, if anything it has regressed in terms of speed. But that is because travelling at supersonic speeds is expensive and was never economical for passenger planes, Concorde kept running because of the prestige and it raised the profile of the BA brand, not because it made money. The technology to go much faster certainly exists]

Point being, driven in no small part by the two World Wars, technology in this area progressed fast.
ICBMs have existed for decades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_ballistic_missile
They have a huge range and basically do go into space.

This is where I take issue with the Occam's Razor Wiki page:

Quote
What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter straight up at 7 miles per second, and that NASA can do the impossible on a daily basis, explore the solar system, and constantly wow the nation by landing a man on the moon and sending robots to mars; or is the simplest explanation that they really can't do all of that stuff?

Who says NASA invented "never before seen rocket technologies from scratch"? That's a complete straw man.
The Russians got into space before the US did. For a while Russia were ahead of the US in the space race, first satellite, first person in space, etc. The US only caught up and overtook when Kennedy made that famous speech and poured a LOT of money into the project. Like all technical advances, there were a lot of incremental stages. NASA were nowhere near the first to build rockets, the first long range rockets were the V-2s built by the Germans. Had NASA been formed in 1910 and suddenly started claiming that they could launch stuff into the space a matter of years after we first invented powered flight then I'd agree that was a bit suspicious, but it took decades of developing technology and NASA were not the pioneers by any means although they became the best in the business in the 60s when Kennedy threw enough money at it. Look at the budget they had in the 60s compared with now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

It's hardly a surprise or suspicious that they made progress given that funding, but, again, that progress wasn't "from scratch", it was built on decades of rocket research and progress in other countries.

Your arguments are all very "Devil's advocate". You insinuate and try and cast doubt but you have no actual solid evidence of anything.
Yes, it's possible that the whole thing is fake. In the same way that it's possible that anything is faked. I'd suggest rewriting that Occam's Razor paragraph as follows

Quote
What's the simplest explanation; that NASA, Russia, Europe, India, China and all the other countries who have space programs are all faking space travel, the regular rocket launches which are witnessed by people all around the world are just for show, that the over 500 people who have been to space are all lying - including the 7 "space tourists" who paid handsomly for the privilege, that the ISS is not orbiting the globe despite it being visible from earth in the exact time and place stated, that GPS really uses some other technology than orbiting satellites, that geostationary TV satellites are really some other objects, that all footage and photos from space going back over 50 years are all faked; or is the simplest explanation that the rocket technology first available in the second world war has been developed and really can launch people and things into space?
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on March 13, 2019, 07:25:09 PM
Just read up on Ray Kurzweil and the Law of Accelerating Returns. Advances in technology are on exponential curve. There is one particular graph showing the advances in computing power. Just looking at that alone shows that we are more than capable of getting a rocket into space. You hold a cellphone that is more powerful than a laptop from 5 years ago. And you think we can't figure out how to get a rocket into space? We have had geniuses like Nikola Tesla invent radio (shut up, Marconi lovers), AC electricity, bladeless turbines, the Tesla coils used in power transmission transformers. And you want to doubt our ability for rocket flight?

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 13, 2019, 08:19:33 PM
Just read up on Ray Kurzweil and the Law of Accelerating Returns. Advances in technology are on exponential curve. There is one particular graph showing the advances in computing power. Just looking at that alone shows that we are more than capable of getting a rocket into space. You hold a cellphone that is more powerful than a laptop from 5 years ago. And you think we can't figure out how to get a rocket into space? We have had geniuses like Nikola Tesla invent radio (shut up, Marconi lovers), AC electricity, bladeless turbines, the Tesla coils used in power transmission transformers. And you want to doubt our ability for rocket flight?

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns
We all have devices in our pockets which can tell us where we are and how to get to anywhere else, which can tell you the news, you can look up basically anything using them, you can take videos and photos, you can book tickets to things. You can talk to people, do video calls. You can play games on them and do all kinds of things with different applications. You can talk to the bastard things now and they answer you and, mostly, understand you pretty well and tell you the answer to what you asked.
This has all happened in the last 20 years or so. You could quite easily write an Occam's Razor paragraph expressing incredulity that any of this technology can exist. And it's rockets powerful enough to get into space - something we managed to build soon after World War II - that people with an agenda are choosing to doubt.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on March 13, 2019, 08:28:29 PM
The idea of rockets and rocket propulsion has been around for a long time.

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/1868-brief-history-of-rockets-timeline

This isnt too greatly detailed, but I tried to find something that wasnt part of the NASA website in case anyone freaked out.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 13, 2019, 10:15:33 PM
People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat

They have. NASA gets in 2019 $19.5 billion. It pays to shut up.
Space starts at 50 miles.
Ends at the dome.
Then its called the heavens.

Watch these 7 rockets hit the dome. It gets real good at number 5.
US military tried to blow the dome in the 50's with project Fish Bowl. The highest bomb they set off had some interesting visual effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZtXkV8jlfs


Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: SeaCritique on March 14, 2019, 02:13:51 AM
It's a big leap from rocket, or rocket-like, technology to space travel.

Is it, though?

Yes. It is a big leap from a seven-year old boy firing off a cheap firework in his parent's backyard to men taking a rocket nearly 250,000 miles to the Moon, landing on it and hopping around, and then flying back.

ICBMs have existed for decades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_ballistic_missile
They have a huge range and basically do go into space.

The Wikipedia entry says that they have a minimum range of 3,400 miles. Space treaties and aerospace records keeping use the Karman line as the "start" of space at 62 miles. The "ISS" is, supposedly, at 250 miles. You're right -- the achievable range is more than sufficient to reach what is defined as space.

But an ICBM isn't designed for space travel -- it's a military weapon. And going from, say, 5,000 miles of range to 250,000 miles (plus a return journey), seems a massive leap. I'm still unconvinced, too, that there is much to gain from sending people into space. Doing so was demonstrating political power and supposed scientific prowess originally. There are desirable results from faking space travel, though.

I disagree with your Occam's Razor bit too. To some degree, that quote is attacking a straw man. Better phrased, it might read, "NASA (supposedly) demonstrated a degree of, and function for, rocket technology never conceived prior."
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: TomFoolery on March 14, 2019, 03:43:43 AM
People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat

They have. NASA gets in 2019 $19.5 billion. It pays to shut up.
Space starts at 50 miles.
Ends at the dome.
Then its called the heavens.

Watch these 7 rockets hit the dome. It gets real good at number 5.
US military tried to blow the dome in the 50's with project Fish Bowl. The highest bomb they set off had some interesting visual effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZtXkV8jlfs

This better not be the yoyo despin.
Ugh, it is.

See this is what gives flat earth a bad rap. It's not just believing something that's obviously not true, it's making claims like that video.

I didn't finish watching the video, but I watched enough to see the yoyo-de-spin and I know where this is going.

Those rockets didn't hit the dome.

They have a mechanism, called a "yoyo de spin" mechanism which slows the spin so they can deploy their payload without sending it flying out of control.

For the astute, that is why the rocket stopped spinning but didn't go careening out of control or breaking into a million pieces - which is what would have happened if it'd hit anything at mach 6.

You can google all of this, there are videos explaining all that.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: stack on March 14, 2019, 05:21:20 AM
People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat

They have. NASA gets in 2019 $19.5 billion. It pays to shut up.
Space starts at 50 miles.
Ends at the dome.
Then its called the heavens.

Watch these 7 rockets hit the dome. It gets real good at number 5.
US military tried to blow the dome in the 50's with project Fish Bowl. The highest bomb they set off had some interesting visual effects.

As TomFoolery explained it's called YoYo De-Spin. As well, logic would dictate that if a rocket hit the "dome" it would have been smashed to smithereens. Why that is lost on you is unfathomable.

Here's the explainer video, the rocket looks pretty good for slamming into a dome at full speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=177&v=L4eY_N9IS3w
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 14, 2019, 11:07:24 AM
Yes. It is a big leap from a seven-year old boy firing off a cheap firework in his parent's backyard to men taking a rocket nearly 250,000 miles to the Moon, landing on it and hopping around, and then flying back.

Agreed. In the same way that it's a big leap from a seven year old boy making a paper plane to an A380 flying hundreds of people around the world with every seat having an entertainment system with a wide selection of movies, TV, games and music. Comfortable seats and bathrooms, hot food. On board Wi-fi. Flat beds and showers in business class.
That is a big leap, but like most advances in technology it was made as a series of "small steps for man", not one "giant leap for mankind".

Quote
But an ICBM isn't designed for space travel -- it's a military weapon. And going from, say, 5,000 miles of range to 250,000 miles (plus a return journey), seems a massive leap.
Again, correct. But same argument as above, the leap was made as a series of small steps. It was the Saturn V with several stages of rockets which was required. The Russians were working on similar things, the US just got there first, the Russian ones kept blowing up. One thing to note, once you've escaped earth's gravity and made the initial burn to set you on course to the moon you don't need any more fuel to keep going. You're in a vacuum, there's no drag. Earth's gravity does slow you down but you don't need to keep your foot down all the time because of how fast you're going. It might be 50 times further but you don't need 50 times as much fuel, most of the fuel is used in the initial escape from earth's gravity.

Quote
I'm still unconvinced, too, that there is much to gain from sending people into space. Doing so was demonstrating political power and supposed scientific prowess originally.

The space race was initially motivated by political one-upmanship. But because of that they'd have surely been very keen to call the other side out of they could show the other side was faking it. It's notable that neither side did. What is to gain from ongoing things like the ISS? What is to gain from a permanent base at the South Pole? Or from people keep climbing Everest. As a species there's something in us which wants to explore, wants to learn more.

Yes, NASA did do things which no-one had done before. But before that the Russians did - Gagarin was a massive milestone. The Wright brothers did things no-one had done before.
By definition, invention of new technologies requires doing things no-one has done before. But Kennedy threw a shit-ton of money at the problem to overtake the Russians and as we see in War times, technology can progress quickly with the right motivation. Apollo XI was the culmination of years of work. Note the XI, there were 10 previous missions during which many of the techniques necessary to get to the moon and back - docking, EVAs etc - were practised and rehearsed. And prior to that there were the Mercury and Gemini programmes, much was learned from them.

I'd highly recommend "A Man On The Moon" by Andrew Chaikin if you want to learn more. It has loads of detail about how all this was done.

There were a load of small steps leading up to Armstrong's small step which represented a giant leap for us as a species.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: ChrisTP on March 14, 2019, 11:39:07 AM
"as we see in War times, technology can progress quickly with the right motivation" - I'd say war is the wrong motivation but I agree with what you're saying. Technology advances faster in times of war. Sadly this is how we have the technology today. I do find it funny that so many people here can deny that technology exists while using their phones and laptops to deny it. Nasa invented the computer mouse.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on March 14, 2019, 01:07:22 PM

I'm still unconvinced, too, that there is much to gain from sending people into space. Doing so was demonstrating political power and supposed scientific prowess originally. There are desirable results from faking space travel, though.
[/quote]

Is there much to gain from sitting here debating endlessly the possibilities of a round earth vs a flat earth? Is there anything to gain from any exploration?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

Here is what we have achieved through space travel.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 14, 2019, 03:11:25 PM
This better not be the yoyo despin.
Ugh, it is.


Doesn't explain rocket number 5 and on.
Please watch the other rockets, some explode.
I would love an explaination on those ones please.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: markjo on March 14, 2019, 04:21:54 PM
This better not be the yoyo despin.
Ugh, it is.


Doesn't explain rocket number 5 and on.
Please watch the other rockets, some explode.
I would love an explaination on those ones please.

The explanation for the Falcon 9 explosion is here:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRS-7#Launch_failure
Subsequent investigation traced the accident to the failure of a strut which secured a high-pressure helium bottle inside the second stage's liquid oxygen tank. With the helium pressurization system integrity breached, excess helium quickly flooded the liquid oxygen tank, causing it to overpressurize and burst.[7]

An independent investigation by NASA concluded that the most probable cause of the strut failure was a design error which, instead of using a stainless steel eye bolt made of aerospace-grade material, SpaceX chose an industrial-grade material without adequate screening and testing, and overlooked the recommended safety margin.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 14, 2019, 04:28:11 PM
This better not be the yoyo despin.
Ugh, it is.


Doesn't explain rocket number 5 and on.
Please watch the other rockets, some explode.
I would love an explaination on those ones please.

Do you think all aircraft that crash have "hit the dome"?
Dude, rockets explode sometimes. They are literally full of explosive liquid so when things go wrong they go very wrong.
You need to explain all the ones that don't and seem to get into space just fine without hitting the Dome, because there isn't one.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 14, 2019, 04:37:08 PM

The explanation for the Falcon 9 explosion is here:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRS-7#Launch_failure
Subsequent investigation traced the accident to the failure of a strut which secured a high-pressure helium bottle inside the second stage's liquid oxygen tank. With the helium pressurization system integrity breached, excess helium quickly flooded the liquid oxygen tank, causing it to overpressurize and burst.[7]

An independent investigation by NASA concluded that the most probable cause of the strut failure was a design error which, instead of using a stainless steel eye bolt made of aerospace-grade material, SpaceX chose an industrial-grade material without adequate screening and testing, and overlooked the recommended safety margin.


An independent investigation by NASA is not independent at all.
They simply blamed space x.
And they stated  "probable cause"
That is an assumption only with no facts to back their claim.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 14, 2019, 04:39:20 PM

Do you think all aircraft that crash have "hit the dome"?

Only the ones that are launch straight up and not on an angle over the ocean so they can disappear out of eyes watching.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: stack on March 14, 2019, 04:45:08 PM

Do you think all aircraft that crash have "hit the dome"?

Only the ones that are launch straight up and not on an angle over the ocean so they can disappear out of eyes watching.

How high is the dome?
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 14, 2019, 04:53:47 PM
How high is the dome?

Top of ionosphere. Same place as the sun. That is why the temperature and radiation are so strong.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: stack on March 14, 2019, 04:55:53 PM
How high is the dome?

Top of ionosphere. Same place as the sun. That is why the temperature and radiation are so strong.

How high is that?
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: Curious Squirrel on March 14, 2019, 04:56:46 PM

The explanation for the Falcon 9 explosion is here:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRS-7#Launch_failure
Subsequent investigation traced the accident to the failure of a strut which secured a high-pressure helium bottle inside the second stage's liquid oxygen tank. With the helium pressurization system integrity breached, excess helium quickly flooded the liquid oxygen tank, causing it to overpressurize and burst.[7]

An independent investigation by NASA concluded that the most probable cause of the strut failure was a design error which, instead of using a stainless steel eye bolt made of aerospace-grade material, SpaceX chose an industrial-grade material without adequate screening and testing, and overlooked the recommended safety margin.


An independent investigation by NASA is not independent at all.
They simply blamed space x.
And they stated  "probable cause"
That is an assumption only with no facts to back their claim.
Did you read the report? If you didn't, how can you claim it has 'no facts' to back it up? Just spewing nonsense.
I'd note both NASA and SpaceX conducted an investigation, which is why it's referred to as an 'independent NASA investigation' as it was conducted without SpaceX involvement. Both reports agree on the same area failing. Where they differ is NASA says this is the most likely error point (the screw) while SpaceX concluded it was just that the part(s) were sort of more generally defective. This was based upon telemetry and other information from the crashed vehicle. Not 'no facts' for either claim.


Do you think all aircraft that crash have "hit the dome"?

Only the ones that are launch straight up and not on an angle over the ocean so they can disappear out of eyes watching.

Great, so what happens with all those rockets that hit nothing and go to or above where the ones that 'crash' reached?
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: Matthew7 on March 14, 2019, 05:03:11 PM
How high is the dome?

Top of ionosphere. Same place as the sun. That is why the temperature and radiation are so strong.

 The top of the ionosphere is 1000km up. If you assume the Earth is flat and use trig to calculate the distance to the Sun based on the shadow length of two sticks in distant locations at the same time of day (3 distant sticks, incidentally, provides a pattern of shadow lengths that cannot possibly be accounted for on a flat surface  btw, and tells you that they Sun must be much more distant than the flat surface asumption will let you calculate, but hey I'm playing along) then you get a calcukated distance of no less than 3000km. That's standard FE claim too by the way - so no, it's not at the top of the ionosphere, even if the world were flat.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: stack on March 14, 2019, 10:12:59 PM
I guess my point is that if retlaw thinks all of those rockets in the video hit the dome:

- For the ones that didn't explode when hitting it at 2000 m/s they must be made out of some miracle substance, perhaps Vibranium.
- For those that did hit the dome, at a minimum that's 1000km (or 600 miles) up on the low-end or 3000km (or 1800 miles) up on the high-end. Heights of which those rockets don't even come close to.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 15, 2019, 02:58:06 AM

An independent investigation by NASA concluded that the most probable cause of the strut failure was a design error which, instead of using a stainless steel eye bolt made of aerospace-grade material, SpaceX chose an industrial-grade material without adequate screening and testing, and overlooked the recommended safety margin.

I read a lot of NASA articles like a lawyer would read law and I find they are full of misinformation.
So they found the parts and pieced the rocket back together? Just like an air plane crash? ( i think not)

If so they would not have used the word "probable" if it is a fact? (Because they  are bullshitting)


Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: J-Man on March 15, 2019, 02:58:52 AM
This better not be the yoyo despin.
Ugh, it is.


Doesn't explain rocket number 5 and on.
Please watch the other rockets, some explode.
I would love an explaination on those ones please.
You're fighting a losing battle my friend, they're demons you're trying to argue with. Liars all..................
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 15, 2019, 03:24:01 AM
You're fighting a losing battle my friend, they're demons you're trying to argue with. Liars all..................

Thanks, demons are a good description.
NASA is a joke.
If I lived in the US I would be pissed that I have to give those players money.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 15, 2019, 04:05:14 AM
Go to the meat of this video at 1:52:00
What does the balloon hit and scrap against before it pops?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5kRyQStPhU

Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: retlaw on March 15, 2019, 04:44:59 AM
Rebuttal of NASA.

http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravel.htm
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 15, 2019, 07:42:59 AM
Go to the meat of this video at 1:52:00
What does the balloon hit and scrap against before it pops?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5kRyQStPhU
Nothing. It just pops. As would any balloon when it gets high enough and the pressure outside is low enough that the pressure inside the balloon is enough to break the material the balloon is made of.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on March 15, 2019, 10:36:15 AM
Oh it is very likely that they were able to determine the failure. Its rather simple, actually. When attending college for engineering, you take a course on failure analysis. You are able to determine with some probability the mode of failure on all sorts of stuff. As long as you know the material of the objects at hand, and you are intelligent enough to look up the properties of said material in an engineering handbook, such as Young's modulus. You can then analyze which object failed first based on material properties, dimensions of the object, and inspecting the failure site (the point on the object where it tore, etc). Probable cause of failure means that the sequence of events that lead to the failure are not completely certain so there are more than just one mitigating factor that led to the failure and therefore the most likely of the culprits is therefore determined to be the cause of failure.

Please refrain from talking about failure analysis if you don't understand the principles behind it.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: SeaCritique on March 15, 2019, 01:57:31 PM
Agreed. In the same way that it's a big leap from a seven year old boy making a paper plane to an A380 flying hundreds of people around the world with every seat having an entertainment system with a wide selection of movies, TV, games and music. Comfortable seats and bathrooms, hot food. On board Wi-fi. Flat beds and showers in business class.
That is a big leap, but like most advances in technology it was made as a series of "small steps for man", not one "giant leap for mankind".

I think we, first, need to quantify a "big leap."

The space race was initially motivated by political one-upmanship. But because of that they'd have surely been very keen to call the other side out of they could show the other side was faking it. It's notable that neither side did. What is to gain from ongoing things like the ISS? What is to gain from a permanent base at the South Pole? Or from people keep climbing Everest. As a species there's something in us which wants to explore, wants to learn more.

No, because doing so would've negatively-impacted morale. Both sides -- the two atomic superpowers -- would've been failures had they called each other out.

The ISS, in lieu of "Moon missions" and other, more publicized "rocket launches," is a symbol of hope. It's good for morale that, high above us in the sky, a small-from-here light can be seen by third-graders at summer camps everywhere passing over head with astronauts and scientists from different countries. That's how the story goes.

The permanent base at the South Pole is likely investigating into the Ice Wall and, perhaps, what lies beyond it. Maybe the scientists stationed there don't even realize Antarctica is an Ice Wall due to easy access points and misinformation.

I don't see what Everest has to do with anything, but yes, people have a natural inclination to be curious and explore.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: ChadMcBain on March 15, 2019, 03:41:23 PM
There was a paragraph (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions#People_have_been_into_space._How_have_they_not_discovered_that_the_earth_is_flat.3F) before the one you quoted:

"The most commonly accepted explanation of this is that the space agencies of the world are involved in a conspiracy faking space travel and exploration. This likely began during the Cold War's 'Space Race', in which the USSR and USA were obsessed with beating each other into space to the point that each faked their accomplishments in an attempt to keep pace with the other's supposed achievements. Since the end of the Cold War, however, the conspiracy is most likely motivated by greed rather than political gains, and using only some of their funding to continue to fake space travel saves a lot of money to embezzle for themselves."

Personally, I doubt the validity of any space program.

My 8th graders have determined that you are using the Burden of Proof logical fallacy.  It must be very convenient to scream CONSPIRACY, when you have NO supporting evidence.  Just saying Conspiracy is evidence of nothing.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: SeaCritique on March 15, 2019, 03:57:19 PM
My 8th graders have determined that you are using the Burden of Proof logical fallacy.  It must be very convenient to scream CONSPIRACY, when you have NO supporting evidence.  Just saying Conspiracy is evidence of nothing.

I disagree with their assessment of the burden of proof.

Huh (https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy), no supporting evidence? Start here. For a supposed teacher, you sure are bad at performing research. As well, I'd recommend dropping the combative tone -- that is, assuming you actually want us to respond to you. Either that or you just want to put us down.
Title: Re: People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 15, 2019, 05:44:30 PM
My 8th graders have determined that you are using the Burden of Proof logical fallacy.
I humbly disagree with your 8th graders.
NASA are claiming they have landed on the moon. It’s a pretty extraordinary claim and the burden of proof is on them.
BUT, what SeaCritique is doing is operating in the sceptical context. More info here:

http://theconversation.com/how-to-reason-with-flat-earthers-it-may-not-help-though-95160

How do we know they went to the moon?
Well, 12 astronauts walked on the moon, most of them are still alive and none have ever confessed to fakery.
Ok, but they all could be lying as could all the people in mission control etc (although I guess those people could have been fooled, they might not have had to be “in on it”.)
But the whole thing is all on film, we have countless photos, hours of film footage of the Apollo missions.
But those could all be fake (you then get into sub arguments about shadow angles, flapping flags etc).
But they brought back lots of samples of moon rock.
Those could be from anywhere (from what I understand the rocks being on the moon and so in a vacuum for billions of years does actually make them distinct from earth rock, but that’s beyond my knowledge)
But the Russians were tracking them and they never called the Americans out on the fakery.
Maybe they were fooled too, or they knew that exposing the US would implicate themselves and their own fake space programs.
We could go on and on. The amateurs who tracked the Apollo missions, the fact Australia relayed signals to the moon, that recent missions launched by other counties have produced photos at high enough resolutions to see the original landing sites - the tracks of the lunar rover are clearly visible.
Every piece of evidence can be dismissed as fake or wrong or whatever.
If you operate in the sceptical context then you can refuse to believe anything which doesn’t fit your world view. FE does this with the moon landings and have to extend it to satellites and all space travel despite the number of people, countries and private countries involved and the fact that the technologies which use satellites demonstrably work.
The FE trick is to operate in this context selectively. Notice how things which purport to show a flat earth are accepted unquestioningly, when things do not it’s back to the sceptical context and the burden of proof is turned up to a level impossible to satisfy.

So while I do thing NASA has the burden of proof, they have more than met it to any reasonable strandard. If you call any evidence which doesn’t fit your world view wrong or fake then you can dismiss anything. For some people that’s easier than changing their beliefs.