The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Fraser_Borland on January 10, 2019, 03:36:13 PM

Title: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Fraser_Borland on January 10, 2019, 03:36:13 PM
Hi, I'm a firm believer in round Earth but I find it interesting that you believe otherwise; what do you find the most compelling reason for FE? Why did you stay believing in it?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 04:49:54 PM
Today, for instance...I looked out my window and the land surrounding me, other than hills and dales? Flat.

Yesterday? Same thing. Flat.

All my travels over land and water? Everywhere I go...aside from hills, mountains, valleys, and dales? Same thing. Flat.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: shootingstar on January 10, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: edby on January 10, 2019, 05:05:18 PM
Today, for instance...I looked out my window and the land surrounding me, other than hills and dales? Flat.

Yesterday? Same thing. Flat.

All my travels over land and water? Everywhere I go...aside from hills, mountains, valleys, and dales? Same thing. Flat.
How would it look if it were curved, with a radius of about 6,400 km?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Bad Puppy on January 10, 2019, 05:08:58 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if religion and faith plays a part in resistance to scientific evidence pointing to a round Earth, though I doubt anyone would admit it.

Also, I don't think this thread belongs in FET, maybe in FEC?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 10, 2019, 05:09:37 PM
Today, for instance...I looked out my window and the land surrounding me, other than hills and dales? Flat.

Yesterday? Same thing. Flat.

All my travels over land and water? Everywhere I go...aside from hills, mountains, valleys, and dales? Same thing. Flat.
How would it look if it were curved, with a radius of about 6,400 km?
At the risk of using what's obviously a meme made to mock (which isn't my intention), this is a great example of what a sphere would also look like close up. lumpy but flat.

https://i.redd.it/znl7nrd8u8311.jpg
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 05:11:45 PM
Today, for instance...I looked out my window and the land surrounding me, other than hills and dales? Flat.

Yesterday? Same thing. Flat.

All my travels over land and water? Everywhere I go...aside from hills, mountains, valleys, and dales? Same thing. Flat.
How would it look if it were curved, with a radius of about 6,400 km?
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.
I believe the OP was directed toward FE, yet amazingly I find RE adherents posting responses as to my offered reasons.

Again, how are either of these responses topical?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 10, 2019, 05:12:45 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.

It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 10, 2019, 05:15:01 PM
Observation does not always equate to the truth. Tom, you specifically stated in other topics that the human eye can be deceived by optical illusions. The brain can also be deceived as to what color it is seeing (color blindness). So how is direct observation equate to truth in these instances?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
I did not even wish to respond to the two follow ups because I found them to be off topic.

I do find it amazing that a clearly written OP, asking FE adherents as to what contributes to their belief in FE, draws so much attention from RE adherents.

It's like they cannot help themselves.

Further amazement is found in the uncanny ability of RE adherents to dictate what things would look like in a world they deny exists to begin with.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 10, 2019, 05:23:38 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.

It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.
Yes, when I look at a murderer and he's not murdering someone, he's definitely not a murderer. No proof or justification required, he's clearly innocent as he's clearly not murdering someone when I look at him.

Back on the topic though, You'll be hard pressed to find many flat earthers answer this question directly. I think religion does play a part, I've often heard people say the bible says it's flat, so it must be flat. Not only that, if taken literally, the bible says a lot of things that science disagrees with and so in order to keep ones faith in the bible intact, one must simply believe the bible and ignore any naysayers.

Another reason I think is that without any equipment or taking someones word for it, you cannot see the earth being round. I'm sure some indigenous tribes would have a hard time believing you if you told them we're on a spinning ball in a vast nothingness.

I also think that the realisation of earth being a tiny spec in the vast universe makes one feel small and insignificant, some people may have a hard time believing that they are so worthless, that there must be some creator with a grand scheme for us all, we all like to think we are individual and special and having a reason for being (I'm not saying anyones life is actually useless and without meaning, just that some people may feel that way in the face of such a vast universe).
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: shootingstar on January 10, 2019, 05:36:07 PM
Quote
It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.

I don't need to justify anything Tom.   No one will ever see a curved Earth surface simply by looking out of their window! 
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 10, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Its a contradictory statement given the fact that Tom himself says you cannot rely on direct observation.  For example, the real size of the sun - his whole apparent and projection claims. So if observation of the sun cannot be relied on, then how can observation out a window to determine if the world is flat be relied upon?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: RonJ on January 10, 2019, 05:55:40 PM
When I look out my window all I see is what looks like a flat earth.  It was the same when I was at sea.  All I ever saw was the flat surface of the ocean.  You can't always believe everything you see.  Think that's wrong? Just visit a good magician. 

Personally, I believe what a well calibrated instrument tells me.  Every time I do that I end up with spherical results. 

Any FET enthusiast can do the same thing, but it will take some time and work.  For most it really doesn't make any difference.  If you get on an airliner it makes a difference, but only to the aircrew.  They use spherical earth technology to deliver you to the next airport so effectively you are giving it up to the round earth idea and you probably don't even realize it and it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: edby on January 10, 2019, 06:03:10 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.

It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.
In what sense is he seeing that it is flat? Presumably you agree that if the curvature were large enough, it would look exactly the same as when flat. So in what sense is he seeing this?

Likewise, you may say it looks as though the sun and stars are rotating around the earth. But how would it look if it were the earth rotating? So in what sense do we 'see' the sun rotating?
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 10, 2019, 06:40:35 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.

It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.
Correct, and for thousands of years we have had justification and “reasons”. And since we have had rocket technology we now have definitive proof, were there any lingering doubt.

Sometimes naked eye observations are not enough to distinguish between two possibilities. A flat horizon would be the expected result on either a flat earth or a globe of sufficient size.

It’s notable that you regard a flat horizon as evidence of a flat earth but don’t regard the fact that you observe objects fall to earth as evidence that they actually do. It seems observations are only evidence for you when they match your existing beliefs.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: ChrisTP on January 10, 2019, 07:02:17 PM
Just to add to my answer, one other factor could be that the majority of people who "know" the earth is sphere don’t actually know much about the earth, solar system and universe or why the things are the way they are. So when someone questions that, they think to themselves "oh, this guy is saying the earth is flat, he’s done his research and I can’t refute it" and so someone who didn’t know anything about the heliocentric model suddenly questions what they thought they knew. A lack of information and understanding can really change the scales. Myself included in fact, over 10 years ago when I found out about the flat earth society my first question was, quite arrogantly, if the earth is flat then how do people sail around the world and come back to the same location? It’s a stupid question in hindsight and now, over a decade later I know better and strangely I’ve Learned a lot about the world simply from trying to question flat earth. I’m not a flat earther, but simply trying to debate with these people has given me a huge understanding in the heliocentric model and more.

Another reason would be that psychologically, people who believe in other conspiracies are more inclined to believe in this one. That’s the ‘tinfoil hat’ variety of flat earthers.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: StevieG on January 10, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
In the past science has told us that everything is made up entirely of differing combinations of earth, wind and fire; that the Sun moves around the Earth, then later that the Earth moves around the sun, going by current understanding the Earth moves in a straight line, but space warps it's trajectory. It was accepted fact that an aether exists and it permeates through all things, that earth was gradually shrinking up like an apple. We've moved from a steady state universe to one that went off with a bang and will end in a whimper.

The point I'm getting at here is that while the scientific method is an incredible and infinitely useful tool for humanity, it's findings have been overridden based on new evidence or theories so many times now that it can't be used as a basis to establish unassailable facts and something that is correct to approach with scepticism.

Now lets consider that time isn't linear and neither is space. Things can exist is two states simultaneously and then change depending on if you're looking at it or not. There are sixteen dimensions (at least). We might be surrounded by an infinity of alternative universes, we might not be. Light behaves in ways I struggle to wrap my head around and fundamentally we're told that the very heart of physics are not governed by laws but by a string of uncaused causes. This is all true, but tomorrow it might not be. And I think science is only just scratching the surface.

With all the above in mind, you say the Earth we live on is round but only appears flat. Can you be certain that the Earth appears round but is actually flat?

Today, for instance...I looked out my window and the land surrounding me, other than hills and dales? Flat.

Yesterday? Same thing. Flat.

All my travels over land and water? Everywhere I go...aside from hills, mountains, valleys, and dales? Same thing. Flat.

As Totallackey says that is an unchanging factor in contrast to a an ever-changing and in the long term unreliable set of theories that we are presented with on an ongoing basis. I'm not claiming that my views are a 100% certainty, but it's also not something people should dismiss out of hand.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on January 10, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
I had a similar thought that is it possible to have the earth exist in two different dimensions where it is both flat and round at the same time? I know thats way out there in any theory, and in no way is it meant to silence any debate on whether the earth is round or flat.  Just a thought that occurred to me.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: iamcpc on January 10, 2019, 10:36:16 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if religion and faith plays a part in resistance to scientific evidence pointing to a round Earth, though I doubt anyone would admit it.

Also, I don't think this thread belongs in FET, maybe in FEC?

Religion, Faith, Mental Illness, distrust of the mainstream, skepticism (if I can't see it with my eyes it does not exist), curiousness all play a part in it.

There is real evidence which supports many elements of the FET. No one can deny that.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: inquisitive on January 10, 2019, 10:44:02 PM
That is exactly what you would expect isn't it regardless of whether the Earth is round or flat?  Same thing applies to me but I still acknowledge I live on a spherical Earth.  I also know the reasons why.

It seems to me that you need justification and "reasons" for your position while totallackey just simply needs to look out his window and see that the earth is flat.
I look out of my windows and see the sea and the horizon, plus the sun rising and setting across the earth totally consistent with a round earth.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: shootingstar on January 10, 2019, 10:54:28 PM
Quote
There is real evidence which supports many elements of the FET. No one can deny that.

I can deny it. Apart from the Earth looking flat within the confines of what we can see directly (which doesn't in any way prove anything either way), I cannot see what other evidence does support FET personally.


Totallackey was earlier complaining that this thread, originally aimed at FE people was being taken over by RE followers.  OK then that being the case, FE people please point out any evidence that we see directly around us which in your opinion can only be explained through FE theory.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 10, 2019, 11:01:24 PM
Also, I don't think this thread belongs in FET, maybe in FEC?
Agreed.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Fraser_Borland on January 11, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
Quote

No one will ever see a curved Earth surface simply by looking out of their window!
Yes you can, the horizon, the fact I can't see Everest from the top of a hill,to name a few.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: totallackey on January 11, 2019, 12:03:28 PM
Yes you can, the horizon, the fact I can't see Everest from the top of a hill,to name a few.
Okay Fraser...

Just a couple of tips since you are a noob...

One, you are posting off topic material in your own thread.

B, I don't care where you are on the surface of the Earth...maximum visual range is limited to roughly 350km due to density of the atmoplane.

If you want to start the 400th thread on "why can't I see Everest from my the molehill in my back yard," go ahead.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: Kai Mitchell on January 14, 2019, 05:45:42 PM
Hi I know this will be a bold statement but I have found an on going "code", one runs false so far and the other true, this codex is hidden for us to solve I belive in many places, art, religeon, science, I have found a codex system that combines all and proves flat earth but suggests other things such as why, obviously I hate typeing and would prefer to record via video over audio. I would also like some help resolving debuking my claims to any end, and I would like to point out this is not pride or anamosaty if I am wrong ...it is litraly the division of truth and truth alone.
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: iamcpc on January 14, 2019, 09:17:12 PM
Quote
There is real evidence which supports many elements of the FET. No one can deny that.

I can deny it. Apart from the Earth looking flat within the confines of what we can see directly (which doesn't in any way prove anything either way), I cannot see what other evidence does support FET personally.


Totallackey was earlier complaining that this thread, originally aimed at FE people was being taken over by RE followers.  OK then that being the case, FE people please point out any evidence that we see directly around us which in your opinion can only be explained through FE theory.

Here are 200 examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ax_YpQsy88

Even closer to home based on round earth visibility limits this video should be impossible:


Now THIS is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8TsCPMCR_s

I watched without sound so I don't know if there are other details narrated, but this is what 13+ miles across a shorter section of Monterey Bay looks like under magnification, and you can't see details on the distant beach.

But, they did what I want to do and use a mirror to reflect sunlight, and check the results! Unless they fudged their images and didn't really collect video with the camera and mirror where they showed them to be, this convincingly shows light traveling between two points that would be expected to be obscured on a globe.

The video claims "max refraction" which isn't true. He misinterprets standard refraction as maximum, but still. Credit for even acknowledging that refraction must be considered.

I checked the tide tables and also judging by where they've set up from the water level, the estimates of height above water are low, but even when I bump it up to 6-8', that still leaves mirror in the "shadow" of curvature by about 40-45 feet WITH standard atmospheric refraction.  To get the mirror flash visible, according to an earth curvature calculator, I had to bump the refractive index up to k=0.77, which is considered "severe." Another sighting on another day under different conditions might provide indication whether or not the structures/stacks in the background look that way normally or if looming/towering conditions were evident which could indicate strong super-refraction. But my gut tells me k=.77 is ridiculously extreme.

When I can reschedule this excursion, I'll add this sighting and see if I can duplicate it. It validates the signal mirror idea, which I think is a more convincing method of detection than trying to identify features at the shoreline of a distant shore. If this is what 13 miles across the bay looks like, 23 miles will be even worse.

Oh, and I know already that my kids have bought a Meade Infinity 90mm refractor for my birthday. (I discovered it accidentally and now I have to act surprised on the day; I suck at feigning.) It's not the one I would have chosen, but I'm tickled they thought to do that. Little do they know my main interest is terrestrial "digiscoping", and looking at the reviews it looks like it will be more than adequate for that purpose even if a little cumbersome.


Bobby even admits that this is evidence is not consistent with a globe.

@bobby It sounds like you are saying the observation of the signal mirror in the video you posted is not consistent with a globe. Did I understand correctly?
You did; and yes that's what I'm saying. Unlike other video demos claiming they are showing a flat earth that I feel I can refute, this one I can't.





Frequently people claim that things (such as boats, buildings, and celestial bodies) disappearing behind the horizon is evidence that the earth is round.

This video presents evidence which suggest that things being perceived as behind the horizon could instead be due to optical variables instead of curvature.
discussed here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11059
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyLzdQFU3Og
Title: Re: Why do you believe in the FE?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 14, 2019, 09:53:17 PM
Bobby even admits that this is evidence is not consistent with a globe.
He did, but then he got out there and did his own tests, which is more than most people on here do, and was unable to reproduce the result. So now what?