The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Rushy on December 23, 2018, 04:49:49 PM

Title: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on December 23, 2018, 04:49:49 PM
https://www.gofundme.com/TheTrumpWall

Don't let your memes be dreams. The Trump wall is going to be built by a man with one arm and no legs, whether you like it or not.

The Great Wall of Trump cannot be stopped. Do not even try.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on December 23, 2018, 05:37:47 PM
But Mexico is going to pay for it. Why is a go fund me needed?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on December 23, 2018, 05:40:14 PM
But Mexico is going to pay for it. Why is a go fund me needed?

The phrase "pay for it" didn't necessarily mean financially. Mexico could, for example, pay for it in blood.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 24, 2018, 05:18:15 AM
But Mexico is going to pay for it. Why is a go fund me needed?
At last, honest, hard-working Mexicans have a way of contributing towards the wall.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on December 24, 2018, 09:52:51 AM
But Mexico is going to pay for it. Why is a go fund me needed?

The phrase "pay for it" didn't necessarily mean financially. Mexico could, for example, pay for it in blood.


I wish Trump had said that instead of meaning financially.


Also, $16 million so far?  A faaar cry from $1 billion but who cares?  That guy is now rich and can escape the country.



Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on December 24, 2018, 03:08:55 PM
I grew up in Texas and traveled West Texas a lot. I've been from the Gulf of Mexico 'round the Big Bend all the way up to ol' El Paso, etc. many times.

Anybody who thinks they're going to build a forty foot concrete wall through the middle of the Chisos Mountains is an idiot. It's not going to happen for 200 billion, it's not going to happen for half a trillion. Seriously, just not going to happen.

Mexico is not going to pay for it. You can't force a country pay for anything they don't want to. Even collecting on a judgement from an international court would take force upon a country that chooses not to pay. Tariffs against exports to Mexico would take centuries to recover even a small portion of a wall cost and would result in tariffs against our imports to Mexico. We can't make Mexico pay for a wall any more than Canada could make America pay for a wall to protect them from our mass shootings.

In Texas, the Rio Grande River is the border. He won't be able to build his wall on the soil of the Mexico side of the river. He can't build it in the river. Is he going to build a forty foot concrete wall between the people of the U.S. and the waters of the Rio Grande? Is he going to give Mexico the Rio Grande?

Walls don't work. They used to work thousands of years ago but now walls don't work. Motion detectors work, drone patrols work, electronic frontiers work. A border wall is not border security. A border wall would be another bankrupt ruin erected as a monument to Trump's ego like the carcass of the Taj Mahal casino.

There will be no wall. The crowds of radicalized, chanting rednecks are being film-flammed just like the suckers who lost tens of thousands of dollars in the Trump U scam.

We need to spend a few hundred billion on our nation's cyber security but the U.S. Secretary of Cybersecurity is an idiot who can't even keep his twitter account secure.


I'll debate people over the flat earth but the great wall of Trump is a non starter.

Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 24, 2018, 03:39:26 PM
Anybody who thinks they're going to build a forty foot concrete wall through the middle of the Chisos Mountains is an idiot.
I don't think anyone is proposing a 40ft concrete wall at this stage. Multiple designs have been thrown around (the most recent being a steel slat barrier), and while some of them advocate for going the pure-concrete route in critical points, I haven't seen anyone proposing that America literally drags concrete through the entire border.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on December 24, 2018, 04:06:58 PM
As reality has descended on Trump he has started backed away from the thirty foot wall he promised in the campaign (which defiantly became a forty foot wall when Mexico said they wouldn't pay.) It was also supposed to go six feet underground to prevent tunnels. He was pretty specific, "On the fence -- it's not a fence. It's a wall."

Of course, he later wanted the wall to be see-through so people wouldn't be killed by giant bags of drugs being flung over the wall by catapult. That idea was so outlandish, I didn't believe he actually said it and chalked it up to the usual media bias. But, it's on tape in front of the whole press corp. Parts of the wall need to see through so people don't get hit by bags of drugs. "Because if you get hit with a sixty pound bag of drugs, you're done." Yep, he said that. +facepalm+

After that, I was haunted by the image of an old cowboy riding his horse across the desert when a big bag of drugs comes whistling out of the clear, blue sky and obliterates him.

Trump sold the idea of a cartoon wall to a public that believes the crap they see in late night TV infomercials while the rest of the Republican party cringed. Now they're trying to find something practical angle to spin it. His followers were never chanting, "Build the fence!"




Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on December 24, 2018, 04:27:47 PM
The wall will be solid concrete, 100 meters high, and have automated gun turrets every 50 meters to 'deter' unwanted guests. Additionally, it will have SAM sites to prevent flyovers.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 24, 2018, 04:30:44 PM
Isn't that American politics in a nutshell, though? If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, etc. America is a megacorp - the sales pitch will never match the actual product. Surely you guys have adjusted for that by now?

In short. I don't disagree with you. I just think what you're saying is so trivial that it doesn't really merit wasting keystrokes on.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on December 27, 2018, 11:34:07 AM
Walls don't work. They used to work thousands of years ago but now walls don't work.
Yeah, those gated communities in the US suck at keeping people out...

Yeah, Israel is experiencing much higher levels of people coming in uninvited since their wall was built.
There will be no wall.
Yes there will.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on December 27, 2018, 01:45:51 PM
Walls don't work. They used to work thousands of years ago but now walls don't work.
Yeah, those gated communities in the US suck at keeping people out...

Yeah, Israel is experiencing much higher levels of people coming in uninvited since their wall was built.
There will be no wall.
Yes there will.


There already is a wall.  Several of them.  The rest are areas of deadly desert.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 08, 2019, 06:34:13 PM
They're almost 2% of the way there. Trump won't even be in office by the time it gets funded.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Baby Thork on January 08, 2019, 06:44:06 PM
Trump said "We are going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it". So why is the government shut down until he gets $5bn to build a wall?  ???
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 08, 2019, 06:48:43 PM
Trump said "We are going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it". So why is the government shut down until he gets $5bn to build a wall?  ???

I imagine it has something to do with being unable to force a nation to make monetary contributions to another without some form of coercion.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Baby Thork on January 08, 2019, 06:54:02 PM
I'm all for democracy and if people voted "We're going to build a wall and US taxpayers are all going to pay for it", then you should have a wall. But without assurances from Mexico that they will pay for it, I don't think Trump should get his money. No one went to the polls on that promise. It wasn't on anyone's manifesto.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 08, 2019, 06:59:10 PM
I'm all for democracy and if people voted "We're going to build a wall and US taxpayers are all going to pay for it", then you should have a wall. But without assurances from Mexico that they will pay for it, I don't think Trump should get his money. No one went to the polls on that promise. It wasn't on anyone's manifesto.


It is now.
Hell, one guy would let his golf course be destroyed for the wall to be built.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 09, 2019, 04:34:23 PM
Hell, one guy would let his golf course be destroyed for the wall to be built.
There is no greater sacrifice than giving up the course for your prick sport to build a monument to useless ways to try and keep brown people away from you.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Baby Thork on January 09, 2019, 04:38:55 PM
useless ways to try and keep brown people away from you.
Couldn't America just get a 10 mile restraining order against brown people?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 09, 2019, 04:52:19 PM
Typical libtard approach viewing this as a racial issue.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 09, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
Typical libtard approach viewing this as a racial issue.


Its refreshing to see a properly named Trump supporter.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 09, 2019, 08:30:31 PM
Typical libtard approach viewing this as a racial issue.


Its refreshing to see a properly named Trump supporter.

It's a poor way to phrase it but the core of his post is correct. Modern Democrats have a huge problem with constantly invoking racial strawmen arguments with claims like "u jus don't like brown people lol" instead of addressing any actual concerns. Republicans do something similar, usually involving religion. When practical arguments fail, people generally fall back to moral ones. Since protecting the border is a very practical response, the only argument against it is a moral one, usually "you're just a racist" or "those people need our help!". This is similar to how Republicans respond to abortion (a practical solution) with "murder bad!" (a moral claim). Generally speaking, the person making the moral argument is the one with a weaker stance.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 09, 2019, 09:05:31 PM
Typical libtard approach viewing this as a racial issue.


Its refreshing to see a properly named Trump supporter.

It's a poor way to phrase it but the core of his post is correct. Modern Democrats have a huge problem with constantly invoking racial strawmen arguments with claims like "u jus don't like brown people lol" instead of addressing any actual concerns. Republicans do something similar, usually involving religion. When practical arguments fail, people generally fall back to moral ones. Since protecting the border is a very practical response, the only argument against it is a moral one, usually "you're just a racist" or "those people need our help!". This is similar to how Republicans respond to abortion (a practical solution) with "murder bad!" (a moral claim). Generally speaking, the person making the moral argument is the one with a weaker stance.


Yes and calling liberals "libtards" is pretty spot on for a Trump supporter on the internet. 


Honestly, I agree with you.  The racism card rarely applies.  Not as its presented anyway.  Argumentd just boil down to sweeping generalisations.  "Gun owners are crazy" "Mexicans are lazy job stealers" etc... but his posts seem to be more troll than argument.  A lacky of Trump rather than a free thinking Republican.  Hence my comment.

Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 10, 2019, 12:21:10 AM
Building a wall isn't a practical solution. It's a non-solution for a non-existent problem.

I'll not even touch the whole "colorblind" shtick you're trying for. If you want to pretend there's no racist or xenophobic elements embedded in this topic I have no desire to dig your head out of the ground.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 10, 2019, 03:34:01 AM
Building a wall isn't a practical solution. It's a non-solution for a non-existent problem.

It's the only solution that stops foot traffic aside from something like a minefield or a trench. One of those things would cause an international crisis and the other is just plain silly. We could always take the Israeli route, since they found out shooting on sight does wonders for deterring border jumpers. You also need to think about the future. What happens if climate change really does cause Central America to collapse into chaos? We're going to need a lot more than just a wall, but saying the wall won't help at all is nonsense. It's a practical solution and has been throughout human history. Walls aren't 100% effective, but they're not 0% effective.

I'll not even touch the whole "colorblind" shtick you're trying for. If you want to pretend there's no racist or xenophobic elements embedded in this topic I have no desire to dig your head out of the ground.

This is exactly the problem. You've become convinced it's a race issue because some subset of people might actually have that belief. That is pointless generalization and honestly I thought someone like you wouldn't seriously believe it applies widely to the entire problem. It's a childish oversimplification. It's the equivalent of me saying that anyone against the wall is simply a drug addict that is scared their supplies might get interrupted, which would probably describe a lot of the people against it. Maybe everyone against the wall really is trying to import voters, or maybe they're all people who are avid sex traffickers. Does that make these a valid argument? No, because I think the issue a lot more complicated than just one subset of people with irrational beliefs.

The people on the left saying "muh evil brown people" are just as bad as the right saying "muh white genocide". It's a phenomenon that doesn't really exist outside the internet and the media's desert of the real.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Shifter on January 10, 2019, 04:14:05 AM
A lot of the people coming through are economic migrants.

Make it simply impossible to get any form of employment, money, housing or schooling, healthcare without being a verified legal citizen. Why would someone seeking a better life from Central America want to go to America if they could never get employment, buy/rent a house, send their kids to school etc. The economics would no longer be worth it. Take the sugar off the table!

Businesses or landlords that engage in exploiting illegals should face penalties so steep it would never be worth it.

This also has the added benefit of deterring illegal visa over stayers which is apparently more people than those crossing the border on foot.

Maybe you guys have that and it doesn't work? Or maybe you will be adopting that kind of system? Regardless, the wall essentially was mandated by the people when Trump won office.

To me the idea of the wall would give a false sense of security. It would have to be higher than any ladder or rope, have to be deeper than any tunnel could be dug. Almost everyone other than Trump and his xenophobic base seems to think it would be useless as far was border security goes. It only presents one entirely surmountable obstacle to a desperate asylum seeker economic migrant



Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 10, 2019, 05:40:35 AM
The Chinese built a great wall.  It was't helpful.


Walls are fine in areas of high foot traffic and easy crossing.  But the majority of the southern border is a death trap.  And anyone who gets through is not economically going to cost America more than building and maintaining a wall in areas of extremely difficult traffic.  I mean, how do you get building equipment and materials in some of these areas?  You'd have to level the land and make it easy to get through just to build a wall.


That's not even adding to the need of patrolling the additional sections.


Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.  Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.



Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 11:19:19 AM
Typical libtard approach viewing this as a racial issue.


Its refreshing to see a properly named Trump supporter.

It's a poor way to phrase it but the core of his post is correct. Modern Democrats have a huge problem with constantly invoking racial strawmen arguments with claims like "u jus don't like brown people lol" instead of addressing any actual concerns. Republicans do something similar, usually involving religion. When practical arguments fail, people generally fall back to moral ones. Since protecting the border is a very practical response, the only argument against it is a moral one, usually "you're just a racist" or "those people need our help!". This is similar to how Republicans respond to abortion (a practical solution) with "murder bad!" (a moral claim). Generally speaking, the person making the moral argument is the one with a weaker stance.


Yes and calling liberals "libtards" is pretty spot on for a Trump supporter on the internet. 


Honestly, I agree with you.  The racism card rarely applies.  Not as its presented anyway.  Argumentd just boil down to sweeping generalisations.  "Gun owners are crazy" "Mexicans are lazy job stealers" etc... but his posts seem to be more troll than argument.  A lacky of Trump rather than a free thinking Republican.  Hence my comment.
I am a lackey for honesty wherever it presents itself.

If that happens to be Trump then tough tiddles for you I guess.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 11:23:56 AM
Building a wall isn't a practical solution. It's a non-solution for a non-existent problem.
Why should anyone believe your opinion?

I doubt you even live in the US.

Real life Border Patrol agents, feet on the ground, actually doing the work, clearly state otherwise.

Facts are human trafficking, illegal drug trafficking,as well as sexual abuse and child abuse, are all associated with illegal immigration.

Sounds like an existent problem to me.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 11:27:15 AM
A lot of the people coming through are economic migrants.

Make it simply impossible to get any form of employment, money, housing or schooling, healthcare without being a verified legal citizen. Why would someone seeking a better life from Central America want to go to America if they could never get employment, buy/rent a house, send their kids to school etc. The economics would no longer be worth it. Take the sugar off the table!

Businesses or landlords that engage in exploiting illegals should face penalties so steep it would never be worth it.

This also has the added benefit of deterring illegal visa over stayers which is apparently more people than those crossing the border on foot.

Maybe you guys have that and it doesn't work? Or maybe you will be adopting that kind of system? Regardless, the wall essentially was mandated by the people when Trump won office.

To me the idea of the wall would give a false sense of security. It would have to be higher than any ladder or rope, have to be deeper than any tunnel could be dug. Almost everyone other than Trump and his xenophobic base seems to think it would be useless as far was border security goes. It only presents one entirely surmountable obstacle to a desperate asylum seeker economic migrant
Every politician uttering, "walls don't work," or, "walls are immoral," does so behind the safety of a wall, plus armed security.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 11:33:47 AM
The Chinese built a great wall.  It was't helpful.
Yeah, there sure are a tremendous number of non-natives living in China...[/sarcasm]
Walls are fine in areas of high foot traffic and easy crossing.  But the majority of the southern border is a death trap.  And anyone who gets through is not economically going to cost America more than building and maintaining a wall in areas of extremely difficult traffic.  I mean, how do you get building equipment and materials in some of these areas?  You'd have to level the land and make it easy to get through just to build a wall.
Yeah, those Chinese...they leveled all that land thousands of years ago for that wall they built through the valleys and mountains...[/sarcasm]
That's not even adding to the need of patrolling the additional sections.
The money being asked for would add more patrols and new equipment.
Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.
That is just laughable...how can one illegally cross and at the same time legally cross... 
Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.
The reasons why are already known.

You need to focus on maintaining clarity of thought prior to posting.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 10, 2019, 01:30:14 PM
Bottom line is this...

Trump stated he would work to build a wall. He has held firm on this commitment. He never said it would put a complete end to illegal drugs or human trafficking/illegal immigration. Only libtards are making that an issue.

WALLS WORK in CURTAILING illicit/illegal movement and property.

I work in a prison and I know this to be a fact!

It has nothing to do with whether you are white, brown, yellow, black, purple, smart, dumb, mouth breathing, nose breathing, blue eyed, brown eyed, green eyed, etc...

Most of you commenting on this issue have zero real life experience in dealing with illegal immigration or controlling illegal property/contraband.

Further, most of you commenting do not even live in the US.

Zeroes as far legitimate opinions on what would or would not work in the US.

100 percent credibility when it comes to expressing what constitutes SJW butthurt.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 10, 2019, 06:23:50 PM
Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.  Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Read that sentence again. "Most illegals cross legally" haha, what? If you're referring to visa overstays, that's not a crime. Overstaying a visa after legally gaining entry to the country does not make you an illegal alien. That narrative was started to purposefully confuse people about the issues at hand. There's a huge difference between a border hopper and someone who was vetted and received a visa, then just never left. A visa overstay is a civil offense, nothing more.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 11, 2019, 11:22:44 AM
Jim Acosta clearly demonstrates via LIVE, ON THE SCENE, TOP NOTCH, REPORTING, WALLS WORK!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease)
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on January 11, 2019, 12:15:22 PM
Jim Acosta clearly demonstrates via LIVE, ON THE SCENE, TOP NOTCH, REPORTING, WALLS WORK!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease)

The very state of American politics.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 11, 2019, 01:11:13 PM
Jim Acosta clearly demonstrates via LIVE, ON THE SCENE, TOP NOTCH, REPORTING, WALLS WORK!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/jim-acosta-shows-walls-work-at-border-gop-politicians-tease)

The very state of American politics.
Yes, our beloved leader is bringing REAL TRANSPARENCY to government and his own enemies ARE LEADING THE WAY!!!

GOD BLESS OUR BELOVED LEADER!!!
(http://i.imgur.com/8on2fjR.jpg)
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: StapleBattery on January 11, 2019, 02:52:54 PM
>trump administration
>transparent

Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 12, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.  Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Read that sentence again. "Most illegals cross legally" haha, what? If you're referring to visa overstays, that's not a crime. Overstaying a visa after legally gaining entry to the country does not make you an illegal alien. That narrative was started to purposefully confuse people about the issues at hand. There's a huge difference between a border hopper and someone who was vetted and received a visa, then just never left. A visa overstay is a civil offense, nothing more.


I was, actually.  I figured they were criminals and illegal aliens by the system.  If we cancel those people out, how many illegals do we have?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: honk on January 12, 2019, 02:22:43 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/gofundme-refunding-donations-build-the-wall-fundraiser-2019-1

Take the money and run, Brian. Don't let your dreams be memes.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 12, 2019, 02:40:51 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/gofundme-refunding-donations-build-the-wall-fundraiser-2019-1 (https://www.businessinsider.com/gofundme-refunding-donations-build-the-wall-fundraiser-2019-1)

Take the money and run, Brian. Don't let your dreams be memes.


No.  He needs it in a non-profit.  Taxes.  He'd have to pay tax on $1 billion. 
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2019, 04:28:26 PM
Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.  Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Read that sentence again. "Most illegals cross legally" haha, what? If you're referring to visa overstays, that's not a crime. Overstaying a visa after legally gaining entry to the country does not make you an illegal alien. That narrative was started to purposefully confuse people about the issues at hand. There's a huge difference between a border hopper and someone who was vetted and received a visa, then just never left. A visa overstay is a civil offense, nothing more.


I was, actually.  I figured they were criminals and illegal aliens by the system.  If we cancel those people out, how many illegals do we have?

No one knows how many illegal aliens the US has because, hilariously enough, they avoid documentation. It's also impossible to get a good estimate, because the media is constantly trying to shift the public on what an illegal alien actually is, in much the same way that most people can't tell me the difference between an assault weapon and an assault rifle. An "illegal alien" in the US is a very specific legal term, but an "undocumented migrant" is not, which is why the media constantly wants to talk about one of those but not the other.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 12, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
Look, most illegals cross either legally or near major cities.  Focus on that as well as "why" they come and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Read that sentence again. "Most illegals cross legally" haha, what? If you're referring to visa overstays, that's not a crime. Overstaying a visa after legally gaining entry to the country does not make you an illegal alien. That narrative was started to purposefully confuse people about the issues at hand. There's a huge difference between a border hopper and someone who was vetted and received a visa, then just never left. A visa overstay is a civil offense, nothing more.


I was, actually.  I figured they were criminals and illegal aliens by the system.  If we cancel those people out, how many illegals do we have?

No one knows how many illegal aliens the US has because, hilariously enough, they avoid documentation. It's also impossible to get a good estimate, because the media is constantly trying to shift the public on what an illegal alien actually is, in much the same way that most people can't tell me the difference between an assault weapon and an assault rifle. An "illegal alien" in the US is a very specific legal term, but an "undocumented migrant" is not, which is why the media constantly wants to talk about one of those but not the other.


Wouldn't that mean that any talk about the cost of illegals, the benefit of a wall, how many people slip through the border, and crime rate of illegals is worthless? For all we know, only 50 people slip throuh into America a year from crossing the border without documentstion.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2019, 08:26:44 PM
Wouldn't that mean that any talk about the cost of illegals, the benefit of a wall, how many people slip through the border, and crime rate of illegals is worthless? For all we know, only 50 people slip throuh into America a year from crossing the border without documentstion.

Well, we know that border patrol captures tens of thousands of people per month attempting to cross the border illegally. Roughly 400,000 people per year, according to this: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics. Another 200,000 per year are caught trying to enter through a legal passage without authorization (e.g. a vehicle checkpoint). Since we know the amount of people that evade border patrol is greater than zero, then it's just a matter of trying to estimate what percentage of the total people entering the US illegally are getting away with it. If we give BP a lot of credit, and say they capture 90% of illegal aliens, then that still leaves us with 40,000 people per year getting into the nation illegally every year.

Keeping in mind this is after enormous strides in securing the border (which were bipartisan efforts, up until 2015, when it magically became a partisan issue). After Reagan made the amnesty deal, illegal migration surged, with the 90s and 2000s seeing millions of people trying to gain illegal entry each year. As it turns out, rewarding people for illegally coming into the country results in more people doing it.

This isn't going to stop and I estimate it will get many times worse in the coming decades if major climate change predictions pan out and displace millions of people in Central and South America. Desperate people with nothing to lose will begin marching north by the millions and we can only hope Border Patrol is up to the task. It's just too bad Trump can't acknowledge this problem, since he's busied himself denying climate change altogether, though I doubt the Democrat party in its current state would support such a motivation regardless.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2019, 07:51:54 AM
That is alot.


So, looking at it, according to this article from the washingtimes
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/ (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/)


Most border agents want more fences.  And trump's wall is only a few hundred miles more, not the whole border.


So I've changed my mind.  Its not a big deal.  $5 billion is small for the government.


The issue now is that its a power struggle between democrats and Trump.  Whoever blinks first is going to look weak.  Probably a chapter in "The Art of the Deal" about it.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 16, 2019, 08:36:10 PM
(https://i.redd.it/nzwe72hyxta21.jpg)

Note from moderator: please do not post enormous images without downsizing them
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: garygreen on January 17, 2019, 12:25:08 AM
asinine infographic

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/425414-mcconnell-blocks-house-bill-to-reopen-government-for-second-time
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/425469-mcconnell-senate-wont-override-trump-veto-on-shutdown-fight

lol yeah it's definitely chuck and nancy keeping our government from paying its fucking employees.

also yes, if one spouse unilaterally decides to stop working and paying bills until everyone else agrees to spend household money on his favorite toy, then that spouse is a piece of shit, and i hope he dies in prison.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 19, 2019, 09:49:44 PM
Sorry this took me a while to make.  I have a life.
(https://i.imgur.com/utHfnFV.jpg)

One man's hero is another man's villian.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

However, lets be clear: While both sides could end this now, Donald is the one making demands for something.  He is using America as leverage to get his wall, like a terrorist holding hostages.  HE is demanding something that's new.  The democrats want business as usual.  They want the status quo.  A kidnapper doesn't call and say "You can have your child back if you don't pay me $5 million."

Trump is a terrorist, holding Americans hostage.  And we don't negotiate with terrorists.

Note from moderator: STOP ATTACHING ENORMOUS IMAGES TO YOUR POST. THANK YOU.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 20, 2019, 06:40:59 AM
(@moderator: you'd think I'd have remembered to shrink it.  Sorry.)


So, not sure how I feel on this:
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/19/686876605/trump-offers-temporary-immigrant-protections-for-5-7-billion-in-wall-money


One hand, its is fair deal.  On the other hand, i can see why dems want the government open first.  Not only does it remove any leverage Trump has, but it means there is no rush for making a deal with the border wall.
Also, Trump is losing support and thats thats good for Dems.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on January 20, 2019, 08:11:29 AM
My limited understanding of the issue is that I'm not quite clear on DACA as a bargaining chip. It's tied up in the courts and if the Supreme Court doesn't take up the Trump appeal this session then it kicks around for the better part of 2019 as is. So if all that is true, I wonder if Dems are rolling the dice and simply saying DACA is moot at the moment and will be until October, so this deal isn't really offering anything.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 20, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
My limited understanding of the issue is that I'm not quite clear on DACA as a bargaining chip. It's tied up in the courts and if the Supreme Court doesn't take up the Trump appeal this session then it kicks around for the better part of 2019 as is. So if all that is true, I wonder if Dems are rolling the dice and simply saying DACA is moot at the moment and will be until October, so this deal isn't really offering anything.


https://www.apnews.com/75a7ae8777574164bbe92aa9c1861d89


They won't.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on January 20, 2019, 10:30:39 AM
Exactly. So if I were a poker player and offered up a DACA deal to give someone something of what they want that I don't want, I would say no. I've got time on my side. DACA works as is and if you want to hold out for 10 months I'll be sure to make this all looks like you holding out and not me.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 22, 2019, 12:35:03 PM
Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

The government shutdown plan is working exactly like Trump wanted it to...

Soon, the fat will be trimmed from the hog and all these unnecessary morons can move to their dream socialist paradise...

Soon, civil court cases can be moved to military tribunal status and the traitors can be tried in an expeditious manner...
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on January 22, 2019, 01:09:38 PM
So edgy. So brave.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 22, 2019, 05:01:18 PM
Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

The government shutdown plan is working exactly like Trump wanted it to...

Soon, the fat will be trimmed from the hog and all these unnecessary morons can move to their dream socialist paradise...

Soon, civil court cases can be moved to military tribunal status and the traitors can be tried in an expeditious manner...


Nah.  Its so the kitchen staff is home and he can have fast food every day.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on January 22, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

The government shutdown plan is working exactly like Trump wanted it to...

Soon, the fat will be trimmed from the hog and all these unnecessary morons can move to their dream socialist paradise...

Soon, civil court cases can be moved to military tribunal status and the traitors can be tried in an expeditious manner...


Nah.  Its so the kitchen staff is home and he can have fast food every day.
Fast food and military tribunals clearly go hand in hand.

Both quick and easy and so satisfying!
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 22, 2019, 07:09:57 PM
Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

The government shutdown plan is working exactly like Trump wanted it to...

Soon, the fat will be trimmed from the hog and all these unnecessary morons can move to their dream socialist paradise...

Soon, civil court cases can be moved to military tribunal status and the traitors can be tried in an expeditious manner...


Nah.  Its so the kitchen staff is home and he can have fast food every day.
Fast food and military tribunals clearly go hand in hand.

Both quick and easy and so satisfying!
Just keep in mind how fast trump turns on his friends.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: honk on January 23, 2019, 06:46:58 AM
I may regret asking this, but what traitors?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 23, 2019, 07:22:17 AM
I may regret asking this, but what traitors?
Isn't it obvious?
Anyone not a Trump supporter.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 25, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
I learned something new, from a MEME none the less:

Democrats (well, 8 of them) in the senate, voted for a giant immigration bill that would have added 700+ miles of wall on the border.https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/744/text?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22s%2C744%22%5D%7D&r=64
Republicans failed to take it up in the house.
The meme, of course, points to Schummer as being flippy since he was one of the 8 senators who make the bill and now is fighting against a similar one.  BUT Mitch McConnel voted against it and now he's in favor of it.
So... yeah, this is history repeating itself, just from opposite sides.  And we can see the answer to "If this was a X policy, would you support it?"  as being "Yes." Support your party.  Oppose the other party.  Doesn't matter what it is, just do the opposite of the other side.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2019, 02:46:13 PM
This is a little cherry picking though. Were they voting for and against a wall specifically? Or the bill as a whole?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on January 25, 2019, 03:48:28 PM
This is a little cherry picking though. Were they voting for and against a wall specifically? Or the bill as a whole?


The bill as a whole.  But it included fun things like ending chain immigration and limiting immigrants.


Not sure what else it had that Republicans voted down.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 28, 2019, 11:34:29 PM
Well, it appears I ran away from Rushy like the coward I am.

It's the only solution that stops foot traffic aside from something like a minefield or a trench. One of those things would cause an international crisis and the other is just plain silly. We could always take the Israeli route, since they found out shooting on sight does wonders for deterring border jumpers. You also need to think about the future. What happens if climate change really does cause Central America to collapse into chaos? We're going to need a lot more than just a wall, but saying the wall won't help at all is nonsense. It's a practical solution and has been throughout human history. Walls aren't 100% effective, but they're not 0% effective.
I'm sure we're both creative enough to think of a half-dozen solutions that are at least as practical as a giant wall. Like moats, or a team of patrols with satellite observers. Walls didn't do shit to stop the Mongols, and in an age of air travel, sea travel, and ladders, it won't stop any significant amount now. At a minimum, I think we can find common ground that the cost of the wall (Numbers vary, but at least in the billions for constructions and hundreds of millions annually to maintain) and a month of a federal government shutdown probably wasn't worth what we'd get out of it if we even built it. Which is looking unlikely.

We won't even touch the hypocrisy of a man who campaigned on Mexico building the wall now asking Americans to pay for it.

This is exactly the problem. You've become convinced it's a race issue because some subset of people might actually have that belief. That is pointless generalization and honestly I thought someone like you wouldn't seriously believe it applies widely to the entire problem. It's a childish oversimplification. It's the equivalent of me saying that anyone against the wall is simply a drug addict that is scared their supplies might get interrupted, which would probably describe a lot of the people against it. Maybe everyone against the wall really is trying to import voters, or maybe they're all people who are avid sex traffickers. Does that make these a valid argument? No, because I think the issue a lot more complicated than just one subset of people with irrational beliefs.
I'd find this argument more compelling if we ever talked about border security with Canada, where it's mostly white people. Terrorists and drugs come from up north as well, including famously the 9/11 hijackers. If trafficking was the real focus, we'd worry about both borders. If immigration is the issue, we'd not be talking about the wall because most undocumented immigrants don't come from foot traffic across the border. There are racists and xenophobes that get to vote same as everyone else, and I have a feeling they've gone overwhelmingly to one guy.

Not that this is the focus on why a wall is a bad idea. It's just such a bad idea that I'd argue the majority of people supporting it are either daft, or pretending to be daft because they don't like brown people.

I doubt you even live in the US.
lol
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 31, 2019, 07:17:50 PM
(https://i.redd.it/3pfri67ifsd21.png)

Good question.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on January 31, 2019, 09:45:35 PM
(https://i.redd.it/3pfri67ifsd21.png)

Good question.

The 32 billion dollar figure for human trafficking seems to have come from a United Nations 2005 report:

https://www.unodc.org/documents/human-trafficking/UNVTF_fs_HT_EN.pdf

In it, it states:

"The UNODC report Trafficking in persons to Europe for sexual exploitation shows that this is one of the most lucrative illicit businesses in Europe."

"In Europe over half of the victims come from the Balkans (32 per cent) and the former Soviet Union (19 per cent), with 13 per cent originating in South America, seven per cent in Central Europe, five per cent in Africa and three per cent in East Asia."

"Although victims from Eastern Europe tend to be found throughout Europe, victims from South America tend to be concentrated in several European countries. East Asian victims have also been increasingly detected in many European countries and in some countries are the group most exploited."

No mention of the US, let alone the southern border. But who knows, maybe the problem is far greater here now then back then. I'm just using the 32 billion figure as a reference point from the quote.

Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 31, 2019, 10:42:05 PM
Does it matter how many billions? Your approach to debating on this forum makes it appear as if you have no issue with the premise of the subjects you discuss.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on January 31, 2019, 11:59:35 PM
Does it matter how many billions? Your approach to debating on this forum makes it appear as if you have no issue with the premise of the subjects you discuss.

Not sure I follow your logic. You posted essentially a meme I guess insinuating that Democrats are somehow profiting from Human Trafficking and Cartel Drug Smuggling. The meme referenced some figures. I looked up the figures. And essentially, for the Human Trafficking dollar amount it's a global figure. No mention of the US, nor the southern border. Which I presume this thread is about given the title. Point being, If you're going to post what you think is a clever meme, A) get your facts straight and B) make it at least relevant.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 01, 2019, 12:23:59 AM
In the image the text actually specifically says "Global human trafficking." It seems that is you who can't get their facts straight, and appear to have been outsmarted by "Jali_Cat" on the twitters.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on February 01, 2019, 12:37:28 AM
In the image the text actually specifically says "Global human trafficking." It seems that is you who can't get their facts straight, and appear to have been outsmarted by "Jali_Cat" on the twitters.

Right, but there's no mention of the US, let alone the southern border, in the UN report that references that figure. Yet somehow it manages to insinuate that Democrats are profiting from Global Human Traffic. Odd, disingenuous and irrelevant to this thread. I think you're the one that who got outsmarted by the twitters.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 01, 2019, 12:39:55 AM
In the image the text actually specifically says "Global human trafficking." It seems that is you who can't get their facts straight, and appear to have been outsmarted by "Jali_Cat" on the twitters.

Right, but there's no mention of the US, let alone the southern border, in the UN report that references that figure. Yet somehow it manages to insinuate that Democrats are profiting from Global Human Traffic. Odd, disingenuous and irrelevant to this thread. I think you're the one that who got outsmarted by the twitters.

Why does it need to? International Human Traffickers have an interest in keeping the US borders open in effort to increase revenue flow there. As do International Drug Cartels. The quote is accurate, and relevant.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2019, 01:02:16 AM
In the image the text actually specifically says "Global human trafficking." It seems that is you who can't get their facts straight, and appear to have been outsmarted by "Jali_Cat" on the twitters.

Right, but there's no mention of the US, let alone the southern border, in the UN report that references that figure. Yet somehow it manages to insinuate that Democrats are profiting from Global Human Traffic. Odd, disingenuous and irrelevant to this thread. I think you're the one that who got outsmarted by the twitters.

Why does there have to? International Human Traffickers have an interest in keeping the US borders open in effort to increase revenue flow there. As do International Drug Cartels. The quote is accurate, and relevant.

Drug Traffickers admittedly use the southern terrestial border of the united states very rarely. Instead they use nautical and aerial methods of smuggling.  The border wall will be irrelevant to the stemming the flow of illegal drugs.   i sincerely doubt a wall between Mexico and the USA will do much to stifle the global human trafficking problem.  Education and economic development are the likely antidotes to terrible problems like those.  Posting irrelevant numbers like "$32 billion!!!" or "50,000,000 people are involved in human trafficking!!!" is partisan hackery in the shape of hyperbole and contributes little in the way of solutions to the problem. 

The democrats have already offered to partially fund the border wall/fence/barrier, so why not give that a chance and see if it can grow from there. In doing so, the government won't have to bite the people who they are ultimately there to serve.

Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2019, 04:08:34 AM
How much (involuntary)human trafficking goes through the non-fenced US border, Tom?
How much Drugs?  Not drugs that go through ports of entry, I mean stuff that goes through non-walled areas.


Also, the border is tight.  We don't need additional walls.

"With so much talk about the Wall, people are losing sight of the great job being done on our Southern Border by Border Patrol, ICE and our great Military. Remember the Caravans? Well, they didn’t get through and none are forming or on their way. Border is tight." -Senior White House Official
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on February 01, 2019, 11:32:45 AM
Drug Traffickers admittedly use the southern terrestial border of the united states very rarely. Instead they use nautical and aerial methods of smuggling.  The border wall will be irrelevant to the stemming the flow of illegal drugs.
Oops...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486)

"In the latest case, the tractor-trailer was stopped Saturday trying to enter the U.S. through the border checkpoint in Nogales, Arizona."

Yeah, that reads just like a nautical or aerial shipment...

One could only imagine what would happen with no wall directing traffic to a legitimate point of entry...probably nothing...
How much (involuntary)human trafficking goes through the non-fenced US border, Tom?
How much Drugs?  Not drugs that go through ports of entry, I mean stuff that goes through non-walled areas.
See above.
Also, the border is tight.  We don't need additional walls.
You and your mouse sitting comfortably in your basement maybe not...the rest of us, think it is a very good idea.
"With so much talk about the Wall, people are losing sight of the great job being done on our Southern Border by Border Patrol, ICE and our great Military. Remember the Caravans? Well, they didn’t get through and none are forming or on their way. Border is tight." -Senior White House Official
Yeah, the senior WH official is a jackwagon quote, probably just like the rest of the frequent jackwagon quotes you so frequently find...much in the same vein as, "anonymous sources."
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2019, 11:56:28 AM
And this, people, is why I know Lakey is a troll.  And a bad one at that.  Doesn't even bother googling the damn quote.


Hey genius: its Truth, according to you anyway.  Go look up the source.  Its public.  Hell, its proof you are a troll that you didn't know it.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2019, 12:18:38 PM
Drug Traffickers admittedly use the southern terrestial border of the united states very rarely. Instead they use nautical and aerial methods of smuggling.  The border wall will be irrelevant to the stemming the flow of illegal drugs.
Oops...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486)

"In the latest case, the tractor-trailer was stopped Saturday trying to enter the U.S. through the border checkpoint in Nogales, Arizona."

Yeah, that reads just like a nautical or aerial shipment...

One could only imagine what would happen with no wall directing traffic to a legitimate point of entry...probably nothing...
How much (involuntary)human trafficking goes through the non-fenced US border, Tom?
How much Drugs?  Not drugs that go through ports of entry, I mean stuff that goes through non-walled areas.
See above.
Also, the border is tight.  We don't need additional walls.
You and your mouse sitting comfortably in your basement maybe not...the rest of us, think it is a very good idea.
"With so much talk about the Wall, people are losing sight of the great job being done on our Southern Border by Border Patrol, ICE and our great Military. Remember the Caravans? Well, they didn’t get through and none are forming or on their way. Border is tight." -Senior White House Official
Yeah, the senior WH official is a jackwagon quote, probably just like the rest of the frequent jackwagon quotes you so frequently find...much in the same vein as, "anonymous sources."

Largest fentanyl bust in history != terrestrial transportation their main smuggling method.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on February 01, 2019, 01:10:21 PM
And this, people, is why I know Lakey is a troll.  And a bad one at that.  Doesn't even bother googling the damn quote.


Hey genius: its Truth, according to you anyway.  Go look up the source.  Its public.  Hell, its proof you are a troll that you didn't know it.
Why should I google a quote?

Only trolls, like MSM and you, post quotes without definitive attribution...and quite the norm for you and your ilk...
Drug Traffickers admittedly use the southern terrestial border of the united states very rarely. Instead they use nautical and aerial methods of smuggling.  The border wall will be irrelevant to the stemming the flow of illegal drugs.
Largest fentanyl bust in history != terrestrial transportation their main smuggling method.
Way to guard that intellectual honesty high bar you set for yourself there, Rama!
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: honk on February 01, 2019, 01:54:07 PM
The fentanyl bust hardly makes a case for the wall, given how the smuggler was trying to take it through a legal checkpoint.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on February 01, 2019, 01:58:41 PM
The fentanyl bust hardly makes a case for the wall, given how the smuggler was trying to take it through a legal checkpoint.
Durrr...yeah, it does...

Without a wall. there are no legal checkpoints...

You do not take smuggling detection to open areas of desert...

You take that shit to...wait for it...CHECKPOINTS!
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: stack on February 01, 2019, 06:18:04 PM
The fentanyl bust hardly makes a case for the wall, given how the smuggler was trying to take it through a legal checkpoint.
Durrr...yeah, it does...

Without a wall. there are no legal checkpoints...

You do not take smuggling detection to open areas of desert...

You take that shit to...wait for it...CHECKPOINTS!

I'm not sure I get your point. Today there are 48 U.S.–Mexico border crossings, with 330 ports of entry.

Do you want the new wall so we can have more legal ports of entry?
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2019, 07:49:54 PM
And this, people, is why I know Lakey is a troll.  And a bad one at that.  Doesn't even bother googling the damn quote.


Hey genius: its Truth, according to you anyway.  Go look up the source.  Its public.  Hell, its proof you are a troll that you didn't know it.
Why should I google a quote?

Only trolls, like MSM and you, post quotes without definitive attribution...and quite the norm for you and your ilk...


If you googled it, you'll know that it IS a named source.  I just removed the name to prove a point.  So thanks, you've made me smile.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on February 02, 2019, 09:11:14 AM
The fentanyl bust hardly makes a case for the wall, given how the smuggler was trying to take it through a legal checkpoint.


Even better: the border wall ends about six miles to thr west of the border point.


If smugglers avoid walls, why drive through a gate and not in an unwalled area 6 miles away?  Weird...
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: totallackey on February 04, 2019, 11:46:19 AM
The fentanyl bust hardly makes a case for the wall, given how the smuggler was trying to take it through a legal checkpoint.
Durrr...yeah, it does...

Without a wall. there are no legal checkpoints...

You do not take smuggling detection to open areas of desert...

You take that shit to...wait for it...CHECKPOINTS!

I'm not sure I get your point. Today there are 48 U.S.–Mexico border crossings, with 330 ports of entry.

Do you want the new wall so we can have more legal ports of entry?
Yes, that is what having a wall is about.

You only need infrequent, staggered physically present monitoring of places with a wall and cameras in place. More people would be able to assist in processing those immigrants and/or asylum seekers at legal checkpoints.

A wall makes it safer for those on both sides.
Title: Re: Build Wall
Post by: Lord Dave on February 04, 2019, 09:18:14 PM
"With so much talk about the Wall, people are losing sight of the great job being done on our Southern Border by Border Patrol, ICE and our great Military. Remember the Caravans? Well, they didn’t get through and none are forming or on their way. Border is tight." -President Trump