The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Technology & Information => Topic started by: Thork on January 08, 2014, 11:20:00 PM

Title: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 08, 2014, 11:20:00 PM
So the update to windows 8.1 gives you back the start bar and some other nice features.


I have a laptop with 8.0 on it. You can only update via the store and it does not appear in my store.

So some googling later it appears that if you have a laptop with a SSD-HHD hybrid thing so your OS boots fast but you have a bunch of space like I have, you can't update.

why?

Because the bios is set to not allow you to overwrite the flash card and so you can't update the OS. The only way around this is to change your bios to UEFI and reinstall the whole Th*rking thing and frankly its not going to happen.

Well done Microsoft. You geniuses.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: bj1234 on January 08, 2014, 11:30:47 PM
That sounds like more of a manufacturer issue than a Microsoft issue.  BIOS are configured from the factory not based on what OS you install. 
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 08, 2014, 11:32:18 PM
All manufacturers of laptops have the same issue. Dell, HP, Sony, etc.

Microsoft have made an OS that is too dumb to update itself on a modern laptop.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: jroa on January 08, 2014, 11:33:46 PM
Are you sure that you have to reinstall after turning off UEFI?  It just seems odd to me that you cannot do an update with out wiping everything.  Anyway, I don't have Win 8 on any of my devices, and if I did, I would just switch to a less restrictive OS. 
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: jroa on January 08, 2014, 11:36:11 PM
Oh, and bj1234, yes, all manufactures have to have UEFI turned on by default if they want to offer Win8, from what I understand. 
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Vindictus on January 09, 2014, 12:09:51 AM
Thank God I don't use Windows 8 on my laptop.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: bj1234 on January 09, 2014, 12:34:38 AM
So it seems that the issue is with hybrid drives?  Since UEFI is automatically turned on, it should already be on correct? (I am assuming that it is a 64 bit system since it is a new laptop)

I do know when I tried upgrading my win 8 to 8.1 on my laptop, (it is only 3-4 months old) I needed to run a bunch of windows updates before 8.1 appeared in the store.

Have you tried that?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 09, 2014, 12:45:14 AM
What you said makes no sense.  BIOS is not restrictive while UEFI is.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 09, 2014, 04:28:38 AM
What's the problem with reinstalling the piece of shit other than the fact that it's a piece of shit?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: markjo on January 09, 2014, 04:38:47 AM
Clean instals are usually cleaner and more stable than upgrades anyways.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: bj1234 on January 09, 2014, 05:21:10 AM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack.  It is not like installing 8 over a 7 install.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: markjo on January 10, 2014, 12:22:55 AM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs. 
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: bj1234 on January 10, 2014, 01:03:40 AM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 10, 2014, 01:57:10 AM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
Thork doesn't use Google so its possible his searching yields results from an alternate universe.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 10, 2014, 12:39:33 PM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
I am fully aware you need to have all your updates done before you can upgrade. That is written on every search you come across. However once you get sick of that piece of advice because it isn't helping and you search on, other reasons come to light.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 10, 2014, 01:29:47 PM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
I am fully aware you need to have all your updates done before you can upgrade. That is written on every search you come across. However once you get sick of that piece of advice because it isn't helping and you search on, other reasons come to light.
It should act as one unit.  The OS shouldn't know its on a flash card and the bios shouldn't care.

Is it possible to turn off the SD card and let all the data run from your mechanical HD?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 10, 2014, 03:05:57 PM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
I am fully aware you need to have all your updates done before you can upgrade. That is written on every search you come across. However once you get sick of that piece of advice because it isn't helping and you search on, other reasons come to light.
It should act as one unit.  The OS shouldn't know its on a flash card and the bios shouldn't care.

Is it possible to turn off the SD card and let all the data run from your mechanical HD?
My OS is on the Card. So no, obviously I can't turn it off and hope the windows store will suddenly display the update as ready to go. Also, surely I want the update on the fast ssd card and not on the 500gb super slow hdd.

Why won't you just accept that it is not possible to update because you can't write to that drive and the only way around it is to change the bios and completely reinstall?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 10, 2014, 03:30:41 PM
Normally I agree, however going from 8 to 8.1 is pretty similar to installing a service pack. 
Except UEFI doesn't prevent you from installing service packs.

Except we still haven't heard back from Thork about making sure windows was all up to date.  I have done a basic search on it and haven't found any information about hybrid drives and windows 8.1.
I am fully aware you need to have all your updates done before you can upgrade. That is written on every search you come across. However once you get sick of that piece of advice because it isn't helping and you search on, other reasons come to light.
It should act as one unit.  The OS shouldn't know its on a flash card and the bios shouldn't care.

Is it possible to turn off the SD card and let all the data run from your mechanical HD?
My OS is on the Card. So no, obviously I can't turn it off and hope the windows store will suddenly display the update as ready to go. Also, surely I want the update on the fast ssd card and not on the 500gb super slow hdd.

Why won't you just accept that it is not possible to update because you can't write to that drive and the only way around it is to change the bios and completely reinstall?
Because it doesn't make sense.

Your hybrid drive is either two partitions or one partition with a caching algorithm that puts the files on itself.  If it's the first, Windows shouldn't give a fuck.  If it's the second, then turning it off should let you update if it is indeed the problem.

Secondly, why would changing the bios force a reinstall?  It's the Bios not your motherboard!  The OS shouldn't give a flying fuck what your BIOS is as it doesn't directly interface with it.  (or it shouldn't).

The ONLY thing that messes up OS booting is the UEFI if it doesn't have your OS's digital signature and you have secure boot enabled.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Пардисфла on January 11, 2014, 09:09:28 AM
The ONLY thing that messes up OS booting is the UEFI if it doesn't have your OS's digital signature and you have secure boot enabled.

Not necessarily.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 11, 2014, 12:42:07 PM
(http://i.omgomg.eu/parsimation)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 11, 2014, 01:40:04 PM
The ONLY thing that messes up OS booting is the UEFI if it doesn't have your OS's digital signature and you have secure boot enabled.

Not necessarily.
Well ok.  A few settings like ATA vs AHCI can stop the OS from booting.  But that alters the HDD interface.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 11, 2014, 05:31:13 PM
I bought a new laptop yesterday, and decided to give Windows 8.1 a try (the machine came with Windows 8). I did not encounter Thork's problem, but fuck, that was the most ridiculous upgrade procedure I've seen in my life.

First of all, the upgrade file is 3.6GB. Just... what. Seriously, what. If the upgrade fails for whatever reason (not like it'll tell you the reason anyway), the temp files are deleted. Super helpful, thanks Windows.

Oh, and it failed 3 times. Because why not?

Anyway, eventually it didn't fail, or rather it failed less massively. It then proceeded to show me unmoving progress bars with helpful descriptions of what's currently going on. Examples include:

Oh, and the successful upgrade itself took 2 hours and a half, not including download times.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 11, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
I currently have an iPhone 4. Its getting a bit long in the tooth. Work is getting a new Lumia 625 this weekend. I think I could engineer it so it becomes mine. But Windows phone? Scary.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 08:52:51 PM
I bought a new laptop yesterday, and decided to give Windows 8.1 a try (the machine came with Windows 8). I did not encounter Thork's problem, but fuck, that was the most ridiculous upgrade procedure I've seen in my life.

First of all, the upgrade file is 3.6GB. Just... what. Seriously, what. If the upgrade fails for whatever reason (not like it'll tell you the reason anyway), the temp files are deleted. Super helpful, thanks Windows.

Oh, and it failed 3 times. Because why not?

Anyway, eventually it didn't fail, or rather it failed less massively. It then proceeded to show me unmoving progress bars with helpful descriptions of what's currently going on. Examples include:
  • Preparing upgrade
  • Making changes
  • Getting info
  • Finishing up a few things
  • Taking care of a few things

Oh, and the successful upgrade itself took 2 hours and a half, not including download times.

Took my Surface Pro ten minutes to upgrade. Your laptop is double plus retarded.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 09:03:30 PM
I bought a new laptop yesterday, and decided to give Windows 8.1 a try (the machine came with Windows 8). I did not encounter Thork's problem, but fuck, that was the most ridiculous upgrade procedure I've seen in my life.

First of all, the upgrade file is 3.6GB. Just... what. Seriously, what. If the upgrade fails for whatever reason (not like it'll tell you the reason anyway), the temp files are deleted. Super helpful, thanks Windows.

Oh, and it failed 3 times. Because why not?

Anyway, eventually it didn't fail, or rather it failed less massively. It then proceeded to show me unmoving progress bars with helpful descriptions of what's currently going on. Examples include:
  • Preparing upgrade
  • Making changes
  • Getting info
  • Finishing up a few things
  • Taking care of a few things

Oh, and the successful upgrade itself took 2 hours and a half, not including download times.

Took my Surface Pro ten minutes to upgrade. Your laptop is double plus retarded.
I upgraded a surface pro at work last week. It took a staggering 19 hours. We have superfast broadband but it made no difference. the windows store seemed to be throttling it down to virtually nothing.

I am sceptical about your 10 minute claim on a surface pro.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 12, 2014, 09:14:10 PM
I bought a new laptop yesterday, and decided to give Windows 8.1 a try (the machine came with Windows  8) . I did not encounter Thork's problem, but fuck, that was the most ridiculous upgrade procedure I've seen in my life.

First of all, the upgrade file is 3.6GB. Just... what. Seriously, what. If the upgrade fails for whatever reason (not like it'll tell you the reason anyway), the temp files are deleted. Super helpful, thanks Windows.

Oh, and it failed 3 times. Because why not?

Anyway, eventually it didn't fail, or rather it failed less massively. It then proceeded to show me unmoving progress bars with helpful descriptions of what's currently going on. Examples include:
  • Preparing upgrade
  • Making changes
  • Getting info
  • Finishing up a few things
  • Taking care of a few things
Oh, and the successful upgrade itself took 2 hours and a half, not including download times.

Took my Surface Pro ten minutes to upgrade. Your laptop is double plus retarded.
I upgraded a surface pro at work last week. It took a staggering 19 hours. We have superfast broadband but it made no difference. the windows store seemed to be throttling it down to virtually nothing.

I am sceptical about your 10 minute claim on a surface pro.
I did it on a surface RT at work in about the same time.

Of course, it took a while for me to be able to actually log in.  So I think the microsoft store server sucks.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 09:15:02 PM
I am sceptical about your 10 minute claim on a surface pro.

Read PP's post again you dolt, I'm not talking about download speeds.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 09:29:10 PM
I am sceptical about your 10 minute claim on a surface pro.

Read PP's post again you dolt, I'm not talking about download speeds.
the surface took about 2 hours after the download was complete. I'm still doubtful of your claims. That surface had next to nothing on it. Its just used for testing in house apps.

By the way, you bought a Surface Pro? Its the most heinous piece of crap we have in the office. It absolutely horrible.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 09:52:27 PM
Horrible at what, exactly? It does precisely what I need from a mobile computer.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 09:58:25 PM
Its so hideous to use. Its neither a laptop nor a tablet. Its the bastardised child of both. So many of its features are incredibly dumb.

everything is too small to touch with your finger so you end up trying to use the mousepad, which is also shit, so you have to plug a mouse in.

And then there is the tablet style keyboard. Designed by a complete idiot.

(http://www.brandbuilderwebsites.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/surface-pro-reviwe-split-keyboard.png)

Tablets are designed to be held in one hand and used in the other. Putting a split keyboard on it is an act of madness. Your free hand is dotting all over the place.

Then there is its weight. I think it has a depleted uranium battery.

Couple that with windows 8's awesome concept of making everything at least 5 clicks away and you have the electronic equivalent of tramps vomit.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 10:01:47 PM
Its so hideous to use. Its neither a laptop nor a tablet. Its the bastardised child of both. So many of its features are incredibly dumb.

Vague nonsense, personally insulting an inanimate object instead of relaying an actual negative aspect.

everything is too small to touch with your finger so you end up trying to use the mousepad, which is also shit, so you have to plug a mouse in.

Not a problem, I don't have fat fingers.

And then there is the tablet style keyboard. Designed by a complete idiot.

Never had issue with it.

Tablets are designed to be held in one hand and used in the other. Putting a split keyboard on it is an act of madness. Your free hand is dotting all over the place.

If you wanted a tablet maybe you should have bought an iPad. It fits your "I have no idea what I'm doing" personality more.

Then there is its weight. I think it has a depleted uranium battery.

Maybe go to the gym once a decade or something.

Couple that with windows 8's awesome concept of making everything at least 5 clicks away and you have the electronic equivalent of tramps vomit.

I'm not a big fan of windows 8, but I honestly don't think Windows 7 would work better with a touchscreen interface.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 10:20:28 PM
Its so hideous to use. Its neither a laptop nor a tablet. Its the bastardised child of both. So many of its features are incredibly dumb.

Vague nonsense, personally insulting an inanimate object instead of relaying an actual negative aspect.
The point is it fails at both. Its too heavy and badly designed to use as a tablet. It doesn't portrait and windows itself doesn't work as a touch screen interface. Its awful as a laptop. The keypad gives no feedback because its flat, the screen is tiny and its not very powerful compared with proper laptops.

everything is too small to touch with your finger so you end up trying to use the mousepad, which is also shit, so you have to plug a mouse in.

Not a problem, I don't have fat fingers.
Unless your fingers are the width of a stylus you are going to struggle to pick a document from a folder out of a 1920x1080 10 inch display.

And then there is the tablet style keyboard. Designed by a complete idiot.

Never had issue with it.
Its likely you don't use it. I'll bet you put the surface on a desk like a laptop and use it like that. Why? Because its not designed to be held in your hand. Ergo, its crap.

Tablets are designed to be held in one hand and used in the other. Putting a split keyboard on it is an act of madness. Your free hand is dotting all over the place.

If you wanted a tablet maybe you should have bought an iPad. It fits your "I have no idea what I'm doing" personality more.
I have an iPad. On the subject of knowing what I am doing, you know that I write professional apps for both?

Then there is its weight. I think it has a depleted uranium battery.

Maybe go to the gym once a decade or something.
You should post a picture of your massive guns. Its pretty easy to be Arnie from behind your keyboard.

Couple that with windows 8's awesome concept of making everything at least 5 clicks away and you have the electronic equivalent of tramps vomit.

I'm not a big fan of windows 8, but I honestly don't think Windows 7 would work better with a touchscreen interface.
Neither works. My point is that Microsoft have got it massively wrong and ended up with a dreadful machine. Actually you have ended up with a dreadful machine. They have ended up with 1000 of your dollars. You idiot.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 10:26:57 PM
The point is it fails at both. Its too heavy and badly designed to use as a tablet. It doesn't portrait and windows itself doesn't work as a touch screen interface. Its awful as a laptop. The keypad gives no feedback because its flat, the screen is tiny and its not very powerful compared with proper laptops.

Seriously? You really, truly think its too heavy? That's just sad.

Unless your fingers are the width of a stylus you are going to struggle to pick a document from a folder out of a 1920x1080 10 inch display.

Uhh, no. I think you're fat.

Its likely you don't use it. I'll bet you put the surface on a desk like a laptop and use it like that. Why? Because its not designed to be held in your hand. Ergo, its crap.

It's completely balanced on both sides. You could hold it anywhere and it won't be lopsided. I.e. it is designed to be held in one arm quite easily.

I have an iPad. On the subject of knowing what I am doing, you know that I write professional apps for both?

You do all sorts of things, Thork, and you're not particularly good at any of them.

You should post a picture of your massive guns. Its pretty easy to be Arnie from behind your keyboard.

It's not heavy, Thork, you're just weak. Get over it.

Neither works. My point is that Microsoft have got it massively wrong and ended up with a dreadful machine. Actually you have ended up with a dreadful machine. They have ended up with $1000 of your dollars. You idiot.

I paid $800 for both the tablet and keyboard combo off E-bay. Sounds like you suffer from a bad case of stupid.

Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 10:49:30 PM
The point is it fails at both. Its too heavy and badly designed to use as a tablet. It doesn't portrait and windows itself doesn't work as a touch screen interface. Its awful as a laptop. The keypad gives no feedback because its flat, the screen is tiny and its not very powerful compared with proper laptops.

Seriously? You really, truly think its too heavy? That's just sad.
An iPad Air is 463g. A surface pro is 903g. It feels like a tablet from 2002.

Unless your fingers are the width of a stylus you are going to struggle to pick a document from a folder out of a 1920x1080 10 inch display.

Uhh, no. I think you're fat.
I'm 5' 10" and 11 stone.  ::)
How about you, porkchop?

Its likely you don't use it. I'll bet you put the surface on a desk like a laptop and use it like that. Why? Because its not designed to be held in your hand. Ergo, its crap.

It's completely balanced on both sides. You could hold it anywhere and it won't be lopsided. I.e. it is designed to be held in one arm quite easily.
In one arm? What, like a baby? So you just agreed that its too heavy to hold and comfortably read etc in one hand for any length of time. Nice contradiction.

I have an iPad. On the subject of knowing what I am doing, you know that I write professional apps for both?

You do all sorts of things, Thork, and you're not particularly good at any of them.
God loves a trier.

You should post a picture of your massive guns. Its pretty easy to be Arnie from behind your keyboard.

It's not heavy, Thork, you're just weak. Get over it.
I don't need to cradle my iPad in my arm. Do you use your wanking arm?

Neither works. My point is that Microsoft have got it massively wrong and ended up with a dreadful machine. Actually you have ended up with a dreadful machine. They have ended up with $1000 of your dollars. You idiot.

I paid $800 for both the tablet and keyboard combo off E-bay. Sounds like you suffer from a bad case of stupid.
I don't pay for any of my tablets or phones. Work does. My iPad cost me nothing. I could take home the google nexus, surface pro, Samsung galaxy or iPad mini. But I took the iPad as my day to day tablet because its the best of the lot. There is an endorsement. I can have any of those for free, and I took home the iPad. In fact the others just sit in the office mosly unused because all the developers at work opted for either iPads or Google Nexus machines.

You paid $800 for the surface Pro? The iPad Air 128gb version is $799. Its half the weight. Has a 2048x1536 pixel screen. Takes 5MP photos. Records at 1080dp. Works in any orientation. Has 10 hours of battery time. Works on cellular as well as wifi. Has a store of 750,000 apps. And it looks nice!

The Surface Pro has a pathetic 5 hours of battery. 720 video, 720 cameras. The screen is long and skinny.  Its dreadful.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 12, 2014, 11:10:21 PM
Yeah, if only the iPad didn't run on a smartphone OS, it might actually be decent!
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 11:10:40 PM
An iPad Air is 463g. A surface pro is 903g. It feels like a tablet from 2002.

Oh, so you do use an iPad? Good to know you really are this stupid.


I'm 5' 10" and 11 stone.  ::)
How about you, porkchop?

Oh, so you're not fat, you're short, tiny, and weak.

In one arm? What, like a baby? So you just agreed that its too heavy to hold and comfortably read etc in one hand for any length of time. Nice contradiction.

As the first person in the argument to resort to semantics, you must be losing, no?

I don't need to cradle my iPad in my arm. Do you use your wanking arm?

Semantics again. And no, I don't use my wanking arm.

I don't pay for any of my tablets or phones. Work does. My iPad cost me nothing. I could take home the google nexus, surface pro, Samsung galaxy or iPad mini. But I took the iPad as my day to day tablet because its the best of the lot. There is an endorsement. I can have any of those for free, and I took home the iPad. In fact the others just sit in the office mosly unused because all the developers at work opted for either iPads or Google Nexus machines.

You paid $800 for the surface Pro? The iPad Air 128gb version is $799. Its half the weight. Has a 2048x1536 pixel screen. Takes 5MP photos. Records at 1080dp. Works in any orientation. Has 10 hours of battery time. Works on cellular as well as wifi. Has a store of 750,000 apps. And it looks nice!

The Surface Pro has a pathetic 5 hours of battery. 720 video, 720 cameras. The screen is long and skinny.  Its dreadful.

The iPad is also... surprise... a fucking tablet. I needed a computer, because my job is actually important and requires a processor that is a bit more powerful than a glorified cell phone. Why are you comparing tablets to the Surface Pro, anyway? The Surface Pro is an ultrabook, not a tablet.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Снупс on January 12, 2014, 11:12:43 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Thork here, the Surface Pro sounds exactly like a Microsoft product. Perhaps Rushy is suffering from choice-supportive bias. :P

Granted, I don't know enough to say much of substance in this discussion, so perhaps the Surface's duality as a tablet and a laptop is enough to justify it. Buuuut it does not sound very good.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 11:15:19 PM
An iPad Air is 463g. A surface pro is 903g. It feels like a tablet from 2002.

Oh, so you do use an iPad? Good to know you really are this stupid.


I'm 5' 10" and 11 stone.  ::)
How about you, porkchop?

Oh, so you're not fat, you're short, tiny, and weak.

In one arm? What, like a baby? So you just agreed that its too heavy to hold and comfortably read etc in one hand for any length of time. Nice contradiction.

As the first person in the argument to resort to semantics, you must be losing, no?

I don't need to cradle my iPad in my arm. Do you use your wanking arm?

Semantics again. And no, I don't use my wanking arm.
Not a single rebuttal. I guess this is almost done and dusted.

The iPad is also... surprise... a fucking tablet. I needed a computer
Then you should have bought one. ::)


Yeah, if only the iPad didn't run on a smartphone OS, it might actually be decent!
Care to explain why this is a problem?

I'm inclined to agree with Thork here, the Surface Pro sounds exactly like a Microsoft product. Perhaps Rushy is suffering from choice-supportive bias. :P

Granted, I don't know enough to say much of substance in this discussion, so perhaps the Surface's duality as a tablet and a laptop is enough to justify it. Buuuut it does not sound very good.
Its not very good. Please don't buy one. You'll end up bitter and butthurt like irushwithscvs.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 12, 2014, 11:17:50 PM
If I could get one of the two for free, I'd definitely go for the Surface Pro. My 200 euro smartphone does everything an iPad does and more, just on a smaller screen. The Surface Pro at least comes with Windows, so I can do Windows things in it.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 12, 2014, 11:22:03 PM
Not a single rebuttal. I guess this is almost done and dusted.

You were making an argument to rebut? I didn't see one. I just saw bawwing that it's too heavy for you. Come back when you make a real reason to have a shitty tablet versus a portable ultrabook with a detachable keyboard.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 11:28:19 PM
If I could get one of the two for free, I'd definitely go for the Surface Pro. My 200 euro smartphone does everything an iPad does and more, just on a smaller screen. The Surface Pro at least comes with Windows, so I can do Windows things in it.
Honestly, you wouldn't after using them both.

The surface pro is just too small and fiddly to do any real work. Get a laptop for generating content (MS office, visual studio, whatever it is you do on a laptop that can't be done on a tablet) and get a tablet for watching vids on the train or reading your e-mails, or browsing the internet and reading.

If you can think of a single reason to buy a surface, I'd love to know what it is. Its incredibly difficult to do any real work on it unless you connect it to a proper monitor, mouse and keyboard. at which stage you may as well have got a laptop.

Also the price is ridiculous for what it is.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 12, 2014, 11:36:07 PM
The iPad's price is also ridiculous for what it is. I wouldn't actually ever buy either one, but if given a choice between the two, I'm sure I'd get more out of a Surface Pro.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 11:37:35 PM
The iPad's price is also ridiculous for what it is. I wouldn't actually ever buy either one, but if given a choice between the two, I'm sure I'd get more out of a Surface Pro.
Like what? I'm curious. At work we use the surface pro to push down on a noisy fan in a server to stop it buzzing.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 12, 2014, 11:47:08 PM
Uh, like the ability to use Windows programs for instance? Even if it's not a fully fledged laptop, it's still closer to it than a tablet is. Tablets are just oversized smartphones without the actual phone part. If I wanted to just watch videos or browse the internet, it would be more convenient for me to pull out my phone from my pocket than an iPad from my bag. If I need to get actual work done, the Surface Pro is still much better for it than an iPad. But obviously, a laptop would be better than either of the two. Hence why I wouldn't buy either one.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 11:51:10 PM
Uh, like the ability to use Windows programs for instance?
Like what? I'm curious because as I said, its too small for most things. Give an example of something you would use it for.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 12, 2014, 11:52:22 PM
Photoshop? Video games?? Also, despite herp proprietary suftware, Windows is still far more customizable than iOS.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 12, 2014, 11:59:51 PM
Photoshop? What kind of shooping are you going to do on a 10 inch screen with a touchpad? Games? Ipad has games. Games made for iPad. The surface isn't going to give you any better graphics etc. Lower resolution screen, not much extra grunt and again a 10 inch screen. You don't need graphical power to run tiny screens like that. It ruins the experience of any proper game.

Wanna play games and use photshop ... get a laptop. Not a surface. That's madness.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2014, 12:02:37 AM
:th*rk:
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 13, 2014, 12:06:07 AM
:th*rk:
Go back to CN until you learn how to construct a sentence.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2014, 12:07:16 AM
>being this mad
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 12:08:58 AM
iPad games are shitty smartphone games, Thork. And I'm more concerned about PPI than the actual screen size, and the Surface Pro is decent in that regard since it does display at 1080p. As long as everything is scaled properly, it's essentially the same as using my 1080p monitor but at a shorter viewing distance.

Also, I'm still not actually getting one, jeez!! Why don't you try to explain what I'd get out of an iPad for a change?

Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 13, 2014, 12:14:18 AM
Why don't you try to explain what I'd get out of an iPad for a change?

I did explain. Better cameras, cellular, better screen resolution, lighter, costs less, longer battery life, no crappy keypad mat, better screen dimensions, OS made for touch ...

And I'm more concerned about PPI than the actual screen size,
ipad is 226 PPI, surface pro is 206 PPI.

and the Surface Pro is decent in that regard since it does display at 1080p.
Yet its camera only records in 720dpi. Annoying huh?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 12:24:11 AM
Why don't you try to explain what I'd get out of an iPad for a change?

I did explain. Better cameras, cellular, better screen resolution, lighter, costs less, longer battery life, no crappy keypad mat, better screen dimensions, OS made for touch ...

Uhh... the battery life is nice, I'll give you that one. It's still an oversized smartphone without the phone.

Quote
And I'm more concerned about PPI than the actual screen size,
ipad is 226 PPI, surface pro is 206 PPI.

Uh, so they're both fine? Or are you suggesting the iPad's pixel density is bad?

Quote
and the Surface Pro is decent in that regard since it does display at 1080p.
Yet its camera only records in 720dpi. Annoying huh?

So I'd just use my phone's camera instead, big fucking whoop. The iPad's camera is also awful.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 13, 2014, 12:25:28 AM
I still don't know why you'd pick the inferior machine just because it runs windows? If you want laptop capability, get a laptop. this does not work as a tablet and doesn't compete with laptops anywhere near the price. Its a monstrosity.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 12:29:33 AM
Because it's still less of a monstrosity than the iPad. That's all there is to is, really.

And I really wish it didn't compete with laptops at that price point. For whatever reason 1080p still isn't a market standard for laptops, and it's retarded.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rushy on January 13, 2014, 12:32:15 AM
Better cameras

No one uses a tablet as their camcorder. Moot point.

, cellular

Lolwut? What does this even mean? Are you high?

better screen resolution

A shitty screen resolution that no standards actually support. It's just Apple being retarded, like when they decided they weren't going to put HDMI in their laptops anymore.

, lighter

My phone is lighter than your iPad. It must be better.

, costs less

Because it does less.

, longer battery life

Also because it does less.

, no crappy keypad mat

No keyboard at all, you mean.

, better screen dimensions

What does this even mean?

, OS made for touch ...

Yeah, it's called Windows 8. The OS on the iPad is, funny enough, not an OS at all. It's a glorified iPhone interface.

I still don't know why you'd pick the inferior machine just because it runs windows? If you want laptop capability, get a laptop. this does not work as a tablet and doesn't compete with laptops anywhere near the price. Its a monstrosity.

Look at the price of Ultrabooks, Thork. The Surface Pro is a much better deal than any of them. I'm not trying to argue that the Surface Pro is "better" than the iPad because they're not even remotely the same thing. The iPad is just a really big iPhone without the phone. Like Blanko said, there is no reason to have an iPad. Ever.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2014, 12:43:21 AM
What are iPads even used for?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Vindictus on January 13, 2014, 01:07:40 AM
What are iPads even used for?

Looking hip.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 01:08:47 AM
It's the midlife crisis. See, it's all starting to make sense.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2014, 01:14:15 AM
I have used an iPad, Surface Pro, and Surface RT.

Know what I've discovered?  If you need access to a spreadsheet or pictures or something while you walk around then any tablet will work for you.  I've also seen AT&T salesmen use tablets to access the webpage for better service.  Though they need a special hand holder to hold the ipad.

But here's what a surface Pro will do that an ipad won't:
Connect to a windows domain.  Access to files, webpages, printers, and any special software you need to monitor your servers.  Plus Powershell.

What makes it better than a laptop is the battery life vs weight.  The hard keyboard is pretty good but if you're on the go and need to type something up, the tablet will last longer than a laptop of similar weight.


That being said, I have both a surface RT and an iPad in my office and both sit in my desk doing nothing.  When I need to do work, I use my desktop.  When I need to look something up out in the field, I pull out my smartphone.  Anything else is pointless for me.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: markjo on January 13, 2014, 03:24:45 AM
But here's what a surface Pro will do that an ipad won't:
Connect to a windows domain.  Access to files, webpages, printers, and any special software you need to monitor your servers. 
Are you suggesting that there are no SMB or VNC type clients for iOS?  Also, a lot of newer printers can AirPrint.

Also, what does any of this have to do with the terribleness of the Windows 8.1 upgrade process?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2014, 10:57:12 AM
But here's what a surface Pro will do that an ipad won't:
Connect to a windows domain.  Access to files, webpages, printers, and any special software you need to monitor your servers. 
Are you suggesting that there are no SMB or VNC type clients for iOS?  Also, a lot of newer printers can AirPrint.

Also, what does any of this have to do with the terribleness of the Windows 8.1 upgrade process?
Vnc on the iPad is slow.  And  you can't transfer files for offline viewing easily. 
Air print works great if you buy printers that support it.  Most businesses do not.  Plus air print for iPad does not support Ethernet connected printers.

I was replying to the terrible mess of tablets that Thork has moved the discussion into.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Пардисфла on January 13, 2014, 12:38:23 PM
Get a laptop for generating content (MS office, visual studio, whatever it is you do on a laptop that can't be done on a tablet)

When I did exactly this, you told me to get a tablet.

I think you just like telling people they're wrong.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 13, 2014, 03:54:25 PM
iPad ... has a store of 750,000 apps. And it looks nice!

The Surface Pro has a pathetic 5 hours of battery. 720 video, 720 cameras. The screen is long and skinny.  Its dreadful.

I find it interesting that you didn't mention how many applications are available for Windows.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Rama Set on January 13, 2014, 04:11:57 PM
July 2nd, windows store hit 100,000 apps
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
July 2nd, windows store hit 100,000 apps

Nobody uses Windows Store.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Sean on January 13, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
I hate windows 8 so much. Why are they trying to make my computer like a smart
phone
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2014, 05:41:03 PM
I hate windows 8 so much. Why are they trying to make my computer like a smart
phone
Because touchscreen is the FUTURE
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Blanko on January 13, 2014, 06:26:54 PM
I hate windows 8 so much. Why are they trying to make my computer like a smart
phone
They don't. The "smartphone" functions are optional.

It's like saying Linux is like a smartphone OS if it's running GNOME.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
I hate windows 8 so much. Why are they trying to make my computer like a smart
phone
Because touchscreen is the FUTURE
This.

Computers have been a media center for the last two decades now.  The majority look at pictures, surf the web, maybe upload their home movies, and type a report.  Gaming is largely centered around Facebook games and for the people who do play PC games rather than their console counterpart, you're the minority.


With that said the tablet has become the device to do those things on.  It let's you sit on your couch and watch cat videos on YouTube instead of having to sit at your computer or to have a laptop.

Tablets will become the new home PC.  So Microsoft is just going with the flow.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Thork on January 13, 2014, 07:54:49 PM
With that said the tablet has become the device to do those things on.  It let's you sit on your couch and watch cat videos on YouTube instead of having to sit at your computer or to have a laptop.

Tablets will become the new home PC.  So Microsoft is just going with the flow.
You have made the same mistake that Microsoft have made. They looked at the trend for desktop PCs and decided in 10 years no one will have one if they follow the sales graphs.

But the market did not die. It merely split in half. There are people that generate content and people that absorb content. If you want to absorb content, you get a tablet. Light, easy to use, made for idiots. But if you want to make something, you need a PC.

Employers don't want their staff sat on beanbags mindlessly swiping and poking tablets all day. They want them sat at a desk being productive. Microsoft have completely missed this and are busy shooting themselves in the foot. So much so that my office only has Macs in it. Companies are leaving Microsoft because MS don't know what they are doing.

They should have made 2 OS systems like Apple do. One for tablets/phones, one for PCs. Trying to make windows 8 all things to all men was incredibly dumb. The result is no one is happy.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Пардисфла on January 13, 2014, 09:30:15 PM
But the market did not die. It merely split in half. There are people that generate content and people that absorb content. If you want to absorb content, you get a tablet. Light, easy to use, made for idiots. But if you want to make something, you need a PC.

No.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 14, 2014, 12:03:32 AM
When I did exactly this, you told me to get a tablet.

I think you just like telling people they're wrong.
While, ironically, being wrong. It's Thork, it's what he does.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: markjo on January 14, 2014, 01:44:06 AM
Plus air print for iPad does not support Ethernet connected printers.
???  Ummm...  I don't think that you understand how air print works.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Lord Dave on January 14, 2014, 03:32:09 AM
Plus air print for iPad does not support Ethernet connected printers.
???  Ummm...  I don't think that you understand how air print works.
I thought so too.  So I re-read the apple support site and now I understand my mistake. 

I thought they wrote that it only works in OS X, not that it also works in OS X.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 14, 2014, 05:02:14 AM
You have made the same mistake that Microsoft have made. They looked at the trend for desktop PCs and decided in 10 years no one will have one if they follow the sales graphs.

But the market did not die. It merely split in half. There are people that generate content and people that absorb content. If you want to absorb content, you get a tablet. Light, easy to use, made for idiots. But if you want to make something, you need a PC.

But Thork, what about the infallible wisdom of Google Trends?

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=desktop%2C%20tablet

The interest in desktops has fallen dramatically and the interest in tablets has skyrocketed!  How can you say that Microsoft isn't literally gazing into the future with their business decisions?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: beardo on January 14, 2014, 11:47:22 AM
but sadaam, people already know enough about desktops so no one ever does any google searches about them
Title: Re: Windows 8.1 update
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 14, 2014, 06:09:03 PM
but sadaam, people already know enough about desktops so no one ever does any google searches about them

No, Google Trends objectively measures the universal interest in anything.