The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 05:30:52 PM

Title: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 05:30:52 PM
I've just joined this forum to post my first flat earth video. I propose that the Peirce Quincuncial Projection is an accurate map of the flat earth. Please watch this video and let me know your thoughts. I welcome feedback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntu083w44z4
(https://bitcoin-empire.io/flat-earth/flat-earth-bitcoin-empire.jpg)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Round Eyes on June 05, 2018, 06:42:46 PM

i find it intersting how all the FE maps start by utilizing a globe map and then modifying/chopping it up as needed to create some version of a flat map. why is that?  its almost as if people understand its correct but are trying to find another version that utilizes all the base information.  this proposed map is basically just a globe map, if you look down from the north pole, then cut it into 4 pieces, spread it out and then fill in the gaps with extra ocean

this map still has the same issues as most FE maps in that observed stars/movements dont work for the southern hemisphere.

but props for you for actually trying to create a flat earth map, more effort than typical.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 05, 2018, 07:30:28 PM
You say (about 4:10) that the standard theory says downwards force at the equator should be less, due to centripetal force, 'but this is not what we observe'. Can you give a reference for this please?

Shortly afterwards, you say the Bedford level experiment proves the earth is flat. This has been much discussed here. Again, what is your reference?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 05, 2018, 08:23:33 PM
Well I like it. I'm not going to give you any bitcoin, but I enjoyed the video.

It isn't a projection I have seriously considered before because of the New Zealand issue you show. However I hadn't realised redrawing to make London the centre (something I'm not going to complain about at all, if there is a God, he's likely to have put his favourite people in the middle), would fix many of these issues.

As flat earth maps go, this is as good as any.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: AATW on June 05, 2018, 08:31:25 PM
I actually thought it was a good video, well made.
There's loads of thing wrong with the content, first point was the claim that:

"Every image of earth since the blue marble is a composite. Only one image of earth in existence."

Completely untrue. The NASA quote is taken completely out of context. The himawari8 satellite (nothing to do with NASA) takes a photo of the whole earth every 10 minutes.

https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6YfEkLR_Ho

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/10/science/An-Image-of-Earth-Every-Ten-Minutes.html

Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Bobby Shafto on June 05, 2018, 08:51:35 PM
I can't watch (listen to) the video at the moment, but I'd just like to throw in 2¢ to suggest avoiding referring to flat earth maps as "projections."  I have nothing vested in the flat earth map effort, but a projection presumes a spherical surface being "projected" onto a 2D flat depiction. If the earth is not a globe, then the map of it is not a projection.

Just a nitpick. I'll watch the video later, but comments sound good.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Bobby Shafto on June 05, 2018, 09:07:25 PM
I actually thought it was a good video, well made.
There's loads of thing wrong with the content, first point was the claim that:

"Every image of earth since the blue marble is a composite. Only one image of earth in existence."

Completely untrue. The NASA quote is taken completely out of context. The himawari8 satellite (nothing to do with NASA) takes a photo of the whole earth every 10 minutes.

I agree the statement is untrue, but it might be not as straightforward as that. Because few earth images are photographs as with a camera. Himaware-8 and the US's GOES satellites use multi-spectral imagers that assemble products from strips, including frequencies outside of human visible light. Whether or not that is considered a "composite" I don't know. I think not, but you might get sticklers contesting since it's not a single exposure photograph. I'm not even sure if any geostationary satellites have cameras with a FOV wide enough to capture the whole earth in one shot.

The EPIC imager on DSCOVR (which is positioned much further away from earth than geostationary imagers) is multispectrum also, but I believe it's distance from earth, aperture and method of image capture should qualify it as a noncomposite image, even though it does combine 10 spectral channels to create images. The FOV, though, is wide enough to image the entire earth in one "shot," so even if Himarawa and GOES are disqualified from refuting the blue marble claim, I think DSCOVR (EPIC) isn't.

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/epic (https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/epic)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 05, 2018, 09:11:16 PM
It's a well made video and you come across quite well, but you lost me in Part 1, where you repeat the old "continents change size" claim, and "all images are composites, even according to NASA."

Those are way too entry level, easily understood as bunkum by any thinking person - which I'm going to assume you are.

A bit more research and investigation, I reckon, if you want to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 05, 2018, 09:15:06 PM
It has lines of longitude curving around, which they wouldn't on a flat earth. Also the equator turns corners abruptly - this would be difficult for planes travelling at 550 mph, plus the equatorial flight paths would take much longer than they actually do.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Peirce_quincuncial_projection_SW_20W.JPG)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: AATW on June 05, 2018, 09:24:58 PM
I actually thought it was a good video, well made.
There's loads of thing wrong with the content, first point was the claim that:

"Every image of earth since the blue marble is a composite. Only one image of earth in existence."

Completely untrue. The NASA quote is taken completely out of context. The himawari8 satellite (nothing to do with NASA) takes a photo of the whole earth every 10 minutes.

I agree the statement is untrue, but it might be not as straightforward as that. Because few earth images are photographs as with a camera. Himaware-8 and the US's GOES satellites use multi-spectral imagers that assemble products from strips, including frequencies outside of human visible light. Whether or not that is considered a "composite" I don't know. I think not, but you might get sticklers contesting since it's not a single exposure photograph. I'm not even sure if any geostationary satellites have cameras with a FOV wide enough to capture the whole earth in one shot.

The EPIC imager on DSCOVR (which is positioned much further away from earth than geostationary imagers) is multispectrum also, but I believe it's distance from earth, aperture and method of image capture should qualify it as a noncomposite image, even though it does combine 10 spectral channels to create images. The FOV, though, is wide enough to image the entire earth in one "shot," so even if Himarawa and GOES are disqualified from refuting the blue marble claim, I think DSCOVR (EPIC) isn't.

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/epic (https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/epic)

Interesting. I never quite understand the issue of composite images, FE people seem to confuse "composite" with "fake".
Surely the relevant point here is the images are said to have been taken from space. That's the bit you need to prove false if you're going to maintain FE belief, not how the images are processed or whether images have been stitched together.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 05, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
For a first go, its a very good one.

Ignore this ...
Quote from: Max_Almond
A bit more research and investigation, I reckon, if you want to be taken seriously.

Focus on this ...
but props for you for actually trying to create a flat earth map
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 05, 2018, 09:55:59 PM
You may also want to research more about how flights are tracked when they are over the southern hemisphere oceans, as what you're saying in the video is inaccurate.

Information isn't hidden, it's unavailable.

Nor are planes tracked by GPS, but rather by ADS-B and radar.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 10:03:17 PM
Thanks for the feedback and support. I really appreciate it.

For a first go, its a very good one.

Ignore this ...
Quote from: Max_Almond
A bit more research and investigation, I reckon, if you want to be taken seriously.

Focus on this ...
but props for you for actually trying to create a flat earth map
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 10:05:13 PM
Yes, looking deeper into flight paths is the logical next step. I'm already looking into this having published the map. Thanks for the feedback.

You may also want to research more about how flights are tracked when they are over the southern hemisphere oceans, as what you're saying in the video is inaccurate.

Information isn't hidden, it's unavailable.

Nor are planes tracked by GPS, but rather by ADS-B and radar.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 05, 2018, 10:16:40 PM
What route does the Sydney-Santiago flight take on this map?

Have you any sense of the distances? How far is London from the North Pole, for example? Or to Cape Town?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 05, 2018, 10:31:41 PM
Interesting map, but there are still many many questions unanswered.

for example;
Meridians of longitude are places on the earth where the sun is at its highest each day, your meridians dont work with any sun model proposed so far.
Parallels of lattitude are places where the sun has the same apparent altitude for a given declination. Your map does not work with the suns path.

Your distances between major continents must be way out from what is actually measured by ships tracks.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen. Neither does the model you propose work with any of the known measurements of the magnetic field lines of the earth.

The above are just some, there are many more things need explaining.

However i do congratulate you for actually doing something, and attempting to create a model.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 05, 2018, 11:32:10 PM
I've just joined this forum to post my first flat earth video. I propose that the Peirce Quincuncial Projection is an accurate map of the flat earth. Please watch this video and let me know your thoughts. I welcome feedback.


This map can't be correct because it does not match shipping times and flight times between South America and Australia.


Heres's a link about flight times:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9213.0 (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9213.0)

Here's a link about shipping/ship travel time:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9750.0 (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9750.0)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 11:34:25 PM
You've raised some good points. So I will look into the sun paths and distances between countries.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen.

This map does show the equator as a square with right angles. However, you only have to travel slightly away from the corner positions for the lines of latitude to curve again. So with only four very small points on the map causing the line of lattitude to turn exactly 90 degrees, in the middle of the sea, this could be covered up.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 05, 2018, 11:45:21 PM
I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: rabinoz on June 06, 2018, 12:10:49 AM
I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?
Have you actually been to all four south poles on your Peirce Quincuncial Projection (of the Globe, I might add) to see if they are really in different places?

On the Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia flight:
QANTAS flies regular flights QF27, Sydney Australia to Santiago Chile and QF28 Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia. Here is a post one about a QF28 flight:
Quote from: TWCobra
A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzn39dx960bpe3o/TWCobra%2C%20Senior%20Member%2C%20Metabunk%20-%20Mercator%20Map%2C%2020161210-152703-oepxr.jpg?dl=1)
QF28, Route on Mercator's Projection
[Nov 18 2016] For anyone interested, in a couple of hours I'll be heading out of Santiago heading for Sydney on the QF28. The flight plan has us spending quite a bit of time at 71'30" South and the cloud forecast at the moment shows not a lot of cloud! Lucky I brought 2 GoPros with me!

Fingers crossed for a good time-lapse video of the ice pack!

The pic above shows the route. I've been meaning to post something explaining great circle routes and why they are faster. This map will help once I compare it to the Google Earth representation of the track.

In the meantime we will be taking off around 1700 GMT and landing about 14 hours later. Only around 5% of the flight will be visible on FR24 as there is just nobody to pick up our ADSB signals.

Main Flight plan has just arrived with 13:25 as the flight time which should have us in Sydney on schedule at 0645 UTC. Here is what the flight looks like in the Nav software.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/326pwdxphsy74mq/TWCobra%2C%20Senior%20Member%2C%20Metabunk%20-%20Polar%20Map%2C%20upload_2016-12-10_14-58-56.png?dl=1)
QF28, Route on Polar Projection
[UPDATE: Nov 19, 2016]
Just got in. We had 30 minutes with an awesome view of the ice.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Read the rest in: A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28) (https://www.metabunk.org/a-flight-over-the-antarctic-sea-ice-from-chile-to-australia-qf28.t8235/)

You might also read Flat Earth Theory Debunked by Short Flights (QF27 & QF28) From Australia to South America. (https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-theory-debunked-by-short-flights-qf27-qf28-from-australia-to-south-america.t6483/)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 06, 2018, 01:53:28 AM
You've raised some good points. So I will look into the sun paths and distances between countries.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen.

This map does show the equator as a square with right angles. However, you only have to travel slightly away from the corner positions for the lines of latitude to curve again. So with only four very small points on the map causing the line of lattitude to turn exactly 90 degrees, in the middle of the sea, this could be covered up.

Covered up by Who?

I sail those oceans and can promise you we dont need to turn 90 degrees in the ocean to keep sailing east or west.

Last year I went from northern Angola to North East Brazil, in a straight line that did not involve bumping into Liberia

New Zealand is also pretty close to Australia, but unfortunately not so on your map.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 06, 2018, 04:00:34 AM
Regarding the centripetal acceleration at the equator, this exists and has been measured. This is an important effect when weighing very small quantities such as in the pharmaceutical industry.

These people aren't trying to sell a globe earth conspiracy, they're just trying to make pharmaceuticals.
https://www.pharmamanufacturing.com/articles/2016/mass-measurement-precision-small-objects-pharmaceutical-production/

(https://www.pharmamanufacturing.com/assets/Media/2016/1607/PM1607-Mass-measure.png)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 06, 2018, 08:06:14 AM
You've raised some good points. So I will look into the sun paths and distances between countries.

Your lines (squares) of lattitude contain right angles, requiring a traveller to turn 90 degrees to maintain an east or west heading at certain points on the globe, that does not happen.

This map does show the equator as a square with right angles. However, you only have to travel slightly away from the corner positions for the lines of latitude to curve again. So with only four very small points on the map causing the line of lattitude to turn exactly 90 degrees, in the middle of the sea, this could be covered up.
But aircraft do not do this. They do not ‘cut the corner’ in order to save time. They go right to the corner and then ‘turn’. Why do they do this? To save fuel. The shortest distance along the equator is along the equator. But this map has the equator as the longest distance. It makes the flight from the Congo to Brazil about three times longer than it actually is, at a rough estimate.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 06, 2018, 08:09:08 AM
How long is the flight from the Congo to Brazil? ;)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 06, 2018, 11:17:38 AM
How long is the flight from the Congo to Brazil? ;)

Flight from Luanda (Angola) to São Paulo, (Brazil) is a direct flight of 8 hours 30 mins. No places to stop encountering, so direct flight.

Luanda to London is 8 hours 50 mins, so a comparable time really. (I have been on that flight, and it is non stop)

The distance on the map Angola to Brazil, is about 60-75% longer than Angola to UK, even though the flight time is actually shorter...
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 06, 2018, 01:09:32 PM
Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 06, 2018, 02:36:12 PM
Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

How about Perth to london, Non stop. (Quantas) just started this year.

17 hours 20 minutes from Perth, and the return leg is 16 hours 30 minutes, it does not get any longer.

Emirates do a similar, but slightly shorter Dubai, to Auckland flight, and return. Non stop, nearly 16 hours.

San Francisco to Singapore is also a Non stop service, singapore airlines and united do them, about 16 hours 30 mins. I have travelled that route.

Johannesburg to Perth is 9 hours non stop. Again i have been on that flight.

The flight times on the South Africa to Perth are comparable to the the London too Luanda, but the map shows the distance to be far greater
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 06, 2018, 07:58:20 PM
So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 06, 2018, 08:35:21 PM
So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?
Well there can't be one due to the geometry of space. If you plot distances on a sphere, you find it is geometrically impossible to represent them on a plane surface. So if you find the same problem with distances on the Earth, that suggests it is spherical, no?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Curious Squirrel on June 06, 2018, 09:01:36 PM
So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?
Welcome to why we have the 'gem' of "We don't know the distance between New York and Paris" from the FE side. The known/published distances will only work on a sphere. Which means, in order for the Earth to be flat, at the very least the distances across the waters of the world must be inaccurate/unknown. There's no way around that. Which opens up a whole host of worms, the largest being that no vehicle that travels across the waters for long distances, can accurately know it's speed. Or at least something to that effect. It's a bit of a problem really.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 06, 2018, 09:05:41 PM
Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

74+ southern hemisphere flights per week? How do you check and are you able to send me a list please?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 06, 2018, 09:23:26 PM
I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?

Have I flown from South America to Australia in roughly 15 hours? Yes.




So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

There is no accurate map of the flat earth that even comes close to matching real life flight/shipping times that we observe daily in real life.

We know these flight/shipping times are accurate because planes/ships have a departing date/time and an arrival date/time.

One proposed idea is that flat earth times and flat earth distances are significantly different than round earth times and round earth distances.
(so the 14.5 round earth hour south america/Australia flight is really like 30 something flat earth hours)

My idea is that in the flat earth map there is some teleportation airplanes to the opposite side of the circle when they leave the circle.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 06, 2018, 09:42:46 PM
Nice: I hadn't heard of the Luanda-Sao Paolo flight before. I shall add it to my list of direct southern hemisphere flights (74+ per week last time I checked).

74+ southern hemisphere flights per week? How do you check and are you able to send me a list please?

This was correct as of two years ago:

Johannesburg - Perth - Johannesburg
South African Airways
SA280/281 (SAA280/281)
Departs Johannesburg every day at 21.10
Departs Perth every day at 23.50

Sydney - Johannesburg - Sydney
Qantas
QF63/64 (QFA63/64)
Departs Sydney every day at 10.50
Departs Johannesburg every day at 19.10 (usually)

Johannesburg - Sao Paolo - Johannesburg
South African Airways
SA222/223 (SAA222/223)
Departs Johannesburg every day at 11.10 (sometimes more than one flight per day, also departing 21.35)
Departs Sao Paolo every day at 18.00 (ditto, with extra flight departing 23.35)

Auckland - Santiago - Auckland
LATAM Airlines
LA800/801
Departs Auckland every day at 18.10
Departs Santiago every day at 00.55

Sydney - Santiago - Sydney
Qantas
QF27/28
Departs Sydney Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday at 12.30
Departs Santiago Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday at 14.30

Mauritius - Perth - Mauritius
Air Mauritius
MK440/441
Departs Mauritius Tuesday and Saturday at 22.40
Departs Perth Wednesday and Sunday at 13.05

Auckland - Buenos Aires - Auckland
Air New Zealand
NZ30/31
Departs Auckland Sunday, Tuesday, Friday at 20.05
Departs Buenos Aires Sunday, Tuesday, Friday at 23.59

Luanda - Sao Paolo - Luanda
TAAG Angola Airlines
DT747/746
Departs Luanda every day except Tuesday and Thursday
Departs Sao Paolo every day except Wednesday and Friday

>>>>

So I make that 84 flights every week, and more on occasion.

There may be differences in departure times on certain days, or other flights I'm not aware of. Corrections and additions welcome. :)

>>>>

There are also other flights which fly to/from the southern hemisphere which may represent difficulties for any flat model, but work out fine on a sphere, such as:

Singapore-Johannesburg
Singapore-Mauritius
Mauritius-Hong Kong
Mauritius-Chengdu
Mauritius-Ghuangzhou
Mauritius-Shanghai
Hong Kong-Johannesburg

And then later on this year there's another transpolar circumnavigation flight, which will pass over both poles. Would be interesting to see which route it will take on any proposed flat earth map:

https://www.overthepoles2018.com/

>>>>

For easy flight finding, I recommend either Skyscanner or Kiwi. In Skyscanner you can enter something like 'Country X' to 'Everywhere' (direct only) and see what comes up. Or Kiwi is good, because you can draw radius circles around, for example, South America, and pretty easily see where all the direct flights go - or, again, use countries/regions.

Other flight finding tools are available.

Cheers. :)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 06, 2018, 10:04:01 PM
I can also fly from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia in about 14.5 hours (the black line on the image which is about 9 CM).
https://imgur.com/a/WASO5

Have you actually taken this journey from Santiago, Chile to Sydney Australia? Is this really possible?

Have I flown from South America to Australia in roughly 15 hours? Yes.




So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

There is no accurate map of the flat earth that even comes close to matching real life flight/shipping times that we observe daily in real life.

We know these flight/shipping times are accurate because planes/ships have a departing date/time and an arrival date/time.

One proposed idea is that flat earth times and flat earth distances are significantly different than round earth times and round earth distances.
(so the 14.5 round earth hour south america/Australia flight is really like 30 something flat earth hours)

My idea is that in the flat earth map there is some teleportation airplanes to the opposite side of the circle when they leave the circle.

Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 06, 2018, 10:17:38 PM
Yep. I'm sure there is.

Along with flights, also take into account shipping routes - especially across the southern hemisphere oceans:

(https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg) (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.2/centery:-27.4/zoom:2)

Tons of information available here: www.marinetraffic.com (http://www.marinetraffic.com)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 06, 2018, 10:51:45 PM
So with all of these international flights in the southern hemisphere that are impossible in my flat earth map, what does a map of the flat earth look like?

Does anyone have a flat earth model that works or is everyone experiencing connotative dissonance like me?
Welcome to why we have the 'gem' of "We don't know the distance between New York and Paris" from the FE side. The known/published distances will only work on a sphere. Which means, in order for the Earth to be flat, at the very least the distances across the waters of the world must be inaccurate/unknown. There's no way around that. Which opens up a whole host of worms, the largest being that no vehicle that travels across the waters for long distances, can accurately know it's speed. Or at least something to that effect. It's a bit of a problem really.

To be fair i have not seen the claim that ships speed is inaccurate, airplanes yes, (although incorrect) but not specifically ships, and i have s=described why and how we calibrate ships logs to be accurate to within about 2% of a distance, irrespective of it being flat earth or globe earth.

Distance tables are available for shipping distances, however it is important to be aware that for a distance from New York to say San Francisco, the distance given will be via Panama Canal avoiding land. Therefore it is necessary to chose ocean ports to ocean port, say Durban to Perth, which have no intervening land mass,

The real Beauty of knowing that the ships measured distance is accurate is that it verifies distances that are calculated on the globe earth, and the method of calculating shipping distances is the same as that used for airline distances, and therefore verifies the airline distances, which in main are shortest distances.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 06, 2018, 11:16:05 PM
Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.

keep in mind that the longest direct flight, per the article listed below, is 17.5 "round earth" hours.
https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights (https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights)


It has been suggested that our current time system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our current distance system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our measurement system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.


Without the ability to measure "flat earth" distances creating any sort of map is impossible as measuring distance is the foundation of cartography.



In the dome flat earth model it has been suggested that something flying through the dome would instantly teleport to the corresponding opposite side of the dome.





Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 07, 2018, 01:05:15 AM
Thanks. I'll take a look at this and try to develop my 2D model. I'll try to get all of this data into a relational SQL database and try to visualize it in an application called Gephi. There must be a way of making all of this work.

keep in mind that the longest direct flight, per the article listed below, is 17.5 "round earth" hours.
https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights (https://www.hopper.com/articles/1049/the-worlds-20-longest-non-stop-flights)


It has been suggested that our current time system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our current distance system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.
It has been suggested that our measurement system was specifically designed to support a globe earth.


Without the ability to measure "flat earth" distances creating any sort of map is impossible as measuring distance is the foundation of cartography.



In the dome flat earth model it has been suggested that something flying through the dome would instantly teleport to the corresponding opposite side of the dome.

But we can measure flat earth distance. If the world is flat that is.......

Our logs on ships are calibrated to the sea bed using Doppler, so if the world is flat, then the distances given are “flat earth” distances.
If the world is a globe, then the distances are Globe Earth distances.

Therefore using the fact we can show our logs are within 2% of the calculated distances, we can show that the calculated distances are in fact correct if the world is either global or flat.

Just take the distances and try to put them on a model.............
And keep an open mind about the results...........

Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 07, 2018, 01:30:16 AM
When you are able to measure distances, as between two places on the same continent by e.g. driving, you find that 1 degree latitude straight north or south corresponds to 60 nautical miles, and that 1 degree longitude straight east or west corresponds to 60 nautical miles * cosine(latitude). This also works in the southern hemisphere.

So, in order to make all of this work, you also have to assume that this relationship does not hold over water for some reason, despite many centuries of people navigating via latitude/longitude over the oceans.

You also have to ask yourself why this perfectly aligns with a spherical earth model. Yes, I know, oblate spheroid, but it's so close to being a sphere that it might as well be, at least compared to, say, a flat model.

The phrase is "cognitive dissonance", and the reason you have it is because you are trying to examine evidence and fit it into a model that has been shown to not fit the evidence for thousands of years. Keep at it, and you will either start to ignore the evidence, or you will convince yourself the earth is not flat.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 07, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Thanks for posting your video here, I thought I'd go through it to discuss the various points made.

1:42 - Why are the continents different sizes in different earth pictures?

Pictures taken of an object from different distances will necessarily have different parts of that object take up different areas of the photo. Consider, for example, a photo like this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/97493871@N06/9292183111
Yes, that's a fisheye lens, but the same principle applies - if you are closer to the earth you will be able to see less of the surface, so North America or whatever you're looking at will be filling a bigger proportion of the image than if you were farther away.

1:52 -  Space photos are all composites.

No, they aren't. Many of them are, but many of them aren't. They also aren't all NASA photos - you can see non-composite images from:
Russian satellites:
https://gizmodo.com/5909215/this-is-the-definitive-photograph-of-planet-earth  (false color)


GOES weather satellites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XlfE0ndv_g - OK sure, this is NASA.


Japan: https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/

3:00 - Problems with projections of the Earth.
That is the main focus of this thread. I do want to call out one thing - you mention that the southern land masses look "contrived". There are millions of people living in southern Africa, South America, and Australia, so the land masses are really that shape.  I agree with you it's interesting how there is so much ocean to the south, and so much land to the north, but it doesn't seem suspicious to me, just random.

4:00 - Centrifugal force at the equator.
See my above link/graph, this is measurable.
The thing to remember about rotational motion is that it's not the linear velocity that is felt, it's the rotational velocity. A children's merry-go-round that is rotating only at 1 rotation per day would not even be noticeable to most people. If you do the math, you'll find it's a tiny fraction of gravity, and that's what that graph shows.

See also the Eotvos effect - objects travelling east are lighter than objects travelling west.

4:28 - Space is a vacuum, why doesn't it suck up all the air?
As you go higher and higher in the atmosphere, the pressure decreases. Why doesn't the lower pressure area on top of the mountains suck up all the air from near the oceans? If the pressure decreases as we've observed, what happens if you keep going higher? Does the pressure ever go to zero?

4:34 - Bedford Level experiment
This experiment can be repeated, even by you, in modern times. People who have repeated it have found it wanting.
Here's one version. You can watch the whole thing, or just the part starting at 6:34 where a helicopter is viewed through a telescope and flies below the horizon.
For one interesting version of the Bedford level, look at the power poles on lake Pontchartrain
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=8220.0
Some people argue that the pictures are fake, but you can go there yourself (with suitable equipment) and see for yourself.
Arguing that the pictures are fake is no better than arguing that Rowbotham fabricated the Bedford Level experiment. The entire point of experiments is you can repeat them.

4:55 Shining Rock wilderness
I don't have a lot of context to know what is level in that sense. For a good experiment on such a topic, see Bobby Shafto's work here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9492.0
He built some equipment to detect where eye level is, and measures heights of various mountains.
See also other pictures of mountain ranges like this:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9751.0
Especailly this one:
(https://i.imgur.com/CExMeKb.jpg)

That's all I've got time for now, I'll keep watching later when I get the chance.




Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2018, 04:59:08 AM
So, in order to make all of this work, you also have to assume that this relationship does not hold over water for some reason, despite many centuries of people navigating via latitude/longitude over the oceans.

You also have to ask yourself why this perfectly aligns with a spherical earth model. Yes, I know, oblate spheroid, but it's so close to being a sphere that it might as well be, at least compared to, say, a flat model.

The phrase is "cognitive dissonance", and the reason you have it is because you are trying to examine evidence and fit it into a model that has been shown to not fit the evidence for thousands of years. Keep at it, and you will either start to ignore the evidence, or you will convince yourself the earth is not flat.

Where is your evidence that everything perfectly aligns with the Round Earth model?

Where is your data and study of paths between all points on earth and comparison with the lat/lon coordinate system?

If you cannot produce significant evidence for this wild claim, other than fallacious appeals, then you will need to stop making it.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
So, in order to make all of this work, you also have to assume that this relationship does not hold over water for some reason, despite many centuries of people navigating via latitude/longitude over the oceans.

You also have to ask yourself why this perfectly aligns with a spherical earth model. Yes, I know, oblate spheroid, but it's so close to being a sphere that it might as well be, at least compared to, say, a flat model.

The phrase is "cognitive dissonance", and the reason you have it is because you are trying to examine evidence and fit it into a model that has been shown to not fit the evidence for thousands of years. Keep at it, and you will either start to ignore the evidence, or you will convince yourself the earth is not flat.

Where is your evidence that everything perfectly aligns with the Round Earth model?

Where is your data and study of paths between all points on earth and comparison with the lat/lon coordinate system?

If you cannot produce significant evidence for this wild claim, other than fallacious appeals, then you will need to stop making it.

And does any of the data align with the OP model? Maybe you can point out how the path of the sun follows over the OP model? And the distances used and measured by ships can be reconciled to the OP model?
How about the courses, from Luanda to Recife in Brazil? I have been on that voyage and didnt bump into Liberia. Can you explain why that was?

I believe this thread is based around the map created in the OP, therefore we are discussing the OP map?

On the same rationale, unless you can explain (other than just pointing at EnaG) how Fe hypothesis first in with what we see then surely you need to stop claiming the earth is flat?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2018, 06:01:43 AM
We do generally admit the limits of our knowledge. However, you guys consistently state "this is known" and "the data is consistent" and similar statements. If you are going to make such claims of something being known, then you are expected to demonstrate your claims.

If you cannot demonstrate your claims, that is an automatic lose.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 07, 2018, 06:48:27 AM
So, in order to make all of this work, you also have to assume that this relationship does not hold over water for some reason, despite many centuries of people navigating via latitude/longitude over the oceans.

You also have to ask yourself why this perfectly aligns with a spherical earth model. Yes, I know, oblate spheroid, but it's so close to being a sphere that it might as well be, at least compared to, say, a flat model.

The phrase is "cognitive dissonance", and the reason you have it is because you are trying to examine evidence and fit it into a model that has been shown to not fit the evidence for thousands of years. Keep at it, and you will either start to ignore the evidence, or you will convince yourself the earth is not flat.

Where is your evidence that everything perfectly aligns with the Round Earth model?

Where is your data and study of paths between all points on earth and comparison with the lat/lon coordinate system?

If you cannot produce significant evidence for this wild claim, other than fallacious appeals, then you will need to stop making it.

I have given you this several times in the past.
Navigation manuals from the Royal Navy from the early 19th century, including tables of latitude and longitude for many places around the world.
The logbooks of Captain Cook.

It goes on and on. Even you admitted that latitude and longitude are quantities that can be measured. Once you can measure them, and if you can also measure distances (which we can using a car's odometer), you can get the relationships I mentioned.

The nautical mile is DEFINED to be the distance of 1 minute of arc of latitude. That's a DEFINITION. I don't have to show you anything else.
All the other observations have been confirmed thousands of times by navigators all over the planet.

Max_Almond has posted to this thread, again, the website of shipping lanes.

It is literally every thread I have ever posted to on this board, and every automobile, airplane, ship, and covered wagon trip undergone on this planet for the past 500 years.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 07, 2018, 06:52:38 AM
There is also disconfirmation, which is generally a stronger test than confirmation. There is ample data to confirm the RE model. Of course you can always object 'this is not enough', although you need to specify what would count as enough.

There is also data to disconfirm the FE model. You don't need as much as to confirm the other model. All you need is four points on the earth, and reasonably accurate measurement of the six distances between them. Mathematically, this is enough to disconfirm FE.

Even you [Bishop] admitted that latitude and longitude are quantities that can be measured. Once you can measure them, and if you can also measure distances (which we can using a car's odometer), you can get the relationships I mentioned.
Correct. Latitude and longitude are essentially measures of position. Once you combine these with accurate measurement of surface distance, you can measure the shape of the earth’s surface.

An car odometer is a highly intuitive measure of surface distance, although changes in height will lessen its accuracy, plus you wouldn’t expect the combination of rubber and tarmac to give a super accurate figure.

Far more accurate is the system of triangulation which was used across the world from the 18th to the 19th century. Below is a picture of the Indian Survey which took about sixty years. The Shruve Arc was another such survey.

Tom, if you are suggesting there was something wrong with the method used in these surveys, you really need to say what this was. They occupied the time and labour of many thousands of people over hundreds of years, who were all striving for the greatest possible accuracy. What in your view was wrong with the measurement or method?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/1870_Index_Chart_to_GTS_India-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 07, 2018, 07:25:37 AM

Here's a book from 1788:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z7ZfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR34&dq=geographical+mile&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbkITJgMHbAhVQJDQIHYHQCTsQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&f=false

See page xxxiii and xxxiv for the number of miles vs. latitude and longitude.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 07, 2018, 07:38:29 AM
I can't help but feeling we're getting a little off-topic here: the thread isn't about defending or proving the globe earth, it's about helping David Apple refine his proposed flat earth map.

So far we've done nicely with bringing him new information which will assist him in his project - and no doubt he's setting at it and will come back with an improved version.

But I can't help but feel this last page has been a bit of a derailment, and that it might not be better placed in a new thread.

Perhaps Tom could start one titled something like "Evidence that the globe earth isn't real" and give us something to look at.

In the meantime, I look forward to DA's updated version of his very attractive map.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2018, 10:38:41 AM
We do generally admit the limits of our knowledge. However, you guys consistently state "this is known" and "the data is consistent" and similar statements. If you are going to make such claims of something being known, then you are expected to demonstrate your claims.

As was said, a nautical mile is defined as a particular subdivision of a degree of latitude or longitude.

In a similar fashion, there used to be, in Trafalgar Square, London, a brass plaque which defined the Imperial Inch, Foot and Yard. Can we take these as defined, or do you expect someone to show that these are "known"?

If I recall correctly, the metre was defined by someone or some body in France. Do we have to prove the metre is correct to satisfy you?

Are you expecting a proof of every definition?

Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 07, 2018, 10:50:42 PM
We do generally admit the limits of our knowledge. However, you guys consistently state "this is known" and "the data is consistent" and similar statements. If you are going to make such claims of something being known, then you are expected to demonstrate your claims.

If you cannot demonstrate your claims, that is an automatic lose.

It's one thing to claim that the earth is flat. It's a totally different claim to say that, in hundreds of years of advancement in navigation, cartography, math, surveying, and science that the distance between two cities is totally unknown or a claim that we have no idea what a map of the earth looks like.

If we have no idea what a map of the earth looks like how on earth am I able to use google maps? How am I able to drive from Alaska to Mexico?

by the way Google maps has photographic evidence backing up their map "claims"
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 08, 2018, 02:35:41 AM
We do generally admit the limits of our knowledge. However, you guys consistently state "this is known" and "the data is consistent" and similar statements. If you are going to make such claims of something being known, then you are expected to demonstrate your claims.

If you cannot demonstrate your claims, that is an automatic lose.

It's one thing to claim that the earth is flat. It's a totally different claim to say that, in hundreds of years of advancement in navigation, cartography, math, surveying, and science that the distance between two cities is totally unknown or a claim that we have no idea what a map of the earth looks like.

If we have no idea what a map of the earth looks like how on earth am I able to use google maps? How am I able to drive from Alaska to Mexico?

by the way Google maps has photographic evidence backing up their map "claims"

And herein lies the problem.....
The “satellites” maps on google are claimed to be fake, because there are no satellites possible on FE. Therefore they cannot be accurate, or are representations of what we expect to see.

If you drive from one place to another using your Sat Nav, this is not accepted as there are reservations regarding it accuracy (i personally have no concerns, but that is my opinion) and of course if there are no satellites, GPS cannot exist.

Also one of the main issues of the FEers is that our charts and maps are created with the premise of the earth being round, and as it is known by the FE community to be flat, then the maps and charts must be in error.

So we need to explore ways of looking at the earth which do not rely upon the earth being a globe, and discuss methods and ideas that do not rely upon the basic principle of the world being a globe.

Challenging i know, and i look forwards to the discussions hopefully to follow by the FE believers
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 08, 2018, 07:39:36 AM
I can't help but feeling we're getting a little off-topic here: the thread isn't about defending or proving the globe earth, it's about helping David Apple refine his proposed flat earth map.

So far we've done nicely with bringing him new information which will assist him in his project - and no doubt he's setting at it and will come back with an improved version.

But I can't help but feel this last page has been a bit of a derailment, and that it might not be better placed in a new thread.

Perhaps Tom could start one titled something like "Evidence that the globe earth isn't real" and give us something to look at.

In the meantime, I look forward to DA's updated version of his very attractive map.

Thanks Max. Yeah I'm working on it. Thanks everyone for the feedback, I don't mind reading through a few off topic posts to get some context.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 08, 2018, 12:43:34 PM
Its the kind of map that isn't seen very often, and might therefore lend itself to T-shirts, mugs and other nice things if David wants some of his time back in the form of silver. From flat earth perspective, an alternative might be nice without the lines of longitude. IE without the working ... which can just be enjoyed from its own asthetic layout of the land masses.

David has one North Pole and 4 South Poles. Obviously for flat earth, those 4 points are actually are a single point, all joined by a circle (perimeter) with its centre at the North Pole.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 08, 2018, 01:42:21 PM
Its the kind of map that isn't seen very often, and might therefore lend itself to T-shirts, mugs and other nice things if David wants some of his time back in the form of silver. From flat earth perspective, an alternative might be nice without the lines of longitude. IE without the working ... which can just be enjoyed from its own asthetic layout of the lad masses.

David has one North Pole and 4 South Poles. Obviously for flat earth, those 4 points are actually are a single point, all joined by a circle (perimeter) with its centre at the North Pole.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 08, 2018, 02:10:47 PM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 08, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.
No it still makes no sense. Do you mean that all those places which are different on the FE map are actually the same place in reality? Then it's not an accurate map, is it. Imagine if I were trying to find Paddington station on a map which actually had four different spots where the station would be, quite far apart. Then I would have a 1 in 4 chance of getting there, no?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 08, 2018, 06:19:44 PM

And herein lies the problem.....
The “satellites” maps on google are claimed to be fake, because there are no satellites possible on FE. Therefore they cannot be accurate, or are representations of what we expect to see.

If you drive from one place to another using your Sat Nav, this is not accepted as there are reservations regarding it accuracy (i personally have no concerns, but that is my opinion) and of course if there are no satellites, GPS cannot exist.

Also one of the main issues of the FEers is that our charts and maps are created with the premise of the earth being round, and as it is known by the FE community to be flat, then the maps and charts must be in error.

So we need to explore ways of looking at the earth which do not rely upon the earth being a globe, and discuss methods and ideas that do not rely upon the basic principle of the world being a globe.

Challenging i know, and i look forwards to the discussions hopefully to follow by the FE believers

Google maps has millions and millions of photographs taken from Google map cars which provides strong, non satellite, evidence that someone actually drove down those streets to create the map. I'm not talking about a round earth, i'm not talking about a satellite, i'm talking about a semi accurate map of the earth.

The earth could be flat, round, oval, or a freaking cylinder and we should at least be able to agree that we know that Canada is north of the United states. We should be able to agree that Brazil is in South America which is South of Mexico.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 08, 2018, 07:14:46 PM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.
That's great! And since the pole is at 90 degrees south latitude, you should be able to go there, measure 90 degrees latitude, travel a large number of miles in some direction, and still measure 90 degrees latitude!

Except - when Amundsen went there he only found one place with 90 degrees latitude.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 08, 2018, 09:51:35 PM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.

There's an FE map? Can we see it?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 08, 2018, 09:59:33 PM

And herein lies the problem.....
The “satellites” maps on google are claimed to be fake, because there are no satellites possible on FE. Therefore they cannot be accurate, or are representations of what we expect to see.

If you drive from one place to another using your Sat Nav, this is not accepted as there are reservations regarding it accuracy (i personally have no concerns, but that is my opinion) and of course if there are no satellites, GPS cannot exist.

Also one of the main issues of the FEers is that our charts and maps are created with the premise of the earth being round, and as it is known by the FE community to be flat, then the maps and charts must be in error.

So we need to explore ways of looking at the earth which do not rely upon the earth being a globe, and discuss methods and ideas that do not rely upon the basic principle of the world being a globe.

Challenging i know, and i look forwards to the discussions hopefully to follow by the FE believers

Google maps has millions and millions of photographs taken from Google map cars which provides strong, non satellite, evidence that someone actually drove down those streets to create the map. I'm not talking about a round earth, i'm not talking about a satellite, i'm talking about a semi accurate map of the earth.

The earth could be flat, round, oval, or a freaking cylinder and we should at least be able to agree that we know that Canada is north of the United states. We should be able to agree that Brazil is in South America which is South of Mexico.

Agreed, but google street view has nothing to do with mapping!
All that does is to take a picture and assign it to a geographical location on a map that is already drawn. It does not create a map.
They do however use sat nav to identify their position on a map when taking the pictures.....

Which does nothing to determine where the locations of various continents and other places on a map actually are.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 08, 2018, 10:05:31 PM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.

But Tom says in a different post that the flat earth community rejected the monopole idea over 100 years ago.

Then it cannot be true that the South Pole is all around the world at the south, which is a monopole model yes?

And the OP model does not have a bi polar model presented. I suggest that the OP might want to reflect the possibility of the bi polar model, just in case it turns out to be the accurate form?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 09, 2018, 06:02:34 AM
So I've been looking for flight data to correct my map. openflights.org has lots of data on airports and routes but unfortunately, it doesn't include estimated flight times which is crucial.

They do however, have an Equirectuangual projection showing flight routes, so I have worked my Peirce Quincuncial Projection magic on this image to show exactly where my map fails.

(https://image.ibb.co/dXjJ58/flat_earth_flight_map.png)

It's interesting to see how few flights venture over the north pole.

So I really need a database of estimates flight times to continue. If any of you know about this, please let me know.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 09, 2018, 09:09:06 AM
But Tom says
Nobody cares what Tom says. He's not the prophet you guys take him for. He's welcome to his opinions, but "but Tom said a thing that disagrees with you!" is just not an argument anyone should give a crap about.

Yes, it's true that 100 years ago many prominent FE'ers rejected the monopole model. Since then, 100 years have passed, and most of those guys are pretty dead.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 09, 2018, 10:34:17 AM
But Tom says
Nobody cares what Tom says. He's not the prophet you guys take him for. He's welcome to his opinions, but "but Tom said a thing that disagrees with you!" is just not an argument anyone should give a crap about.

Yes, it's true that 100 years ago many prominent FE'ers rejected the monopole model. Since then, 100 years have passed, and most of those guys are pretty dead.

Ok let me rephrase that,

“It was recently suggested, by a Zetetic council member, that the Society rejected the monopole model over 100 years ago”

Better?

It is hard to be able say what the society believes in when you quote a Zetetic council member and prominent member of the site, only to be told his statements dont carry any weight.

I will remember that in future.

However my point still stands that there apparently is an opinion amongst some members that the monopole model is not correct.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 09, 2018, 10:43:15 AM
“It was recently suggested, by a Zetetic council member, that the Society rejected the monopole model over 100 years ago”

Better?
The ZC has been defunct for years, and its function was completely irrelevant to what you're saying here.

It is hard to be able say what the society believes in when you quote a Zetetic council member and prominent member of the site, only to be told his statements dont carry any weight.
Indeed. Trying to force one individual's views onto a group is a silly thing to do. You've been here long enough to know that there are multiple competing models, and yet you still persist in the logic of "but someone who believes in another model said he doesn't believe in your model!" What's the point in that?

I will remember that in future.
Make no mistake, friendo - I'm also not the infallible FE prophet you're looking for. The next time you try smugly explaining to Tom that "b-but Pete said", you're likely to get a similar response.

You are completely missing the point of this. We're a group that openly advocates the defiance of any authority, and you're sitting here getting grumpy over the fact that we have no authorities.

However my point still stands that there apparently is an opinion amongst some members that the monopole model is not correct.
You're extremely generous to yourself - statements of the obvious are not really a "point". And no, your "point" doesn't "stand". Telling Thork that his views are not the same as the views of someone else is not advancing the discussion in any way.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: rabinoz on June 09, 2018, 10:52:02 AM
You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.

But Tom says in a different post that the flat earth community rejected the monopole idea over 100 years ago.

Then it cannot be true that the South Pole is all around the world at the south, which is a monopole model yes?

And the OP model does not have a bi polar model presented. I suggest that the OP might want to reflect the possibility of the bi polar model, just in case it turns out to be the accurate form?
This is a bit of what Tom Bishop has said about the bi-polar map:
Rabinoz, I support the Bi-Polar model, so I don't know what you are trying to prove to me there.
(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)
Another alternative model descripting Antarctica as a distinct continent.
There is still an "ice wall" in this model, but it not Antarctica.
Beyond the rays of the sun the waters will naturally freeze.

Undoubtedly many more questions will arise,
so if you point me to a good write-up, I'll keep out of your way (on this topic) for a while.

The South Pole was not yet discovered when Rowbotham wrote Earth Not a Globe. It is understandable why he might depict the earth without it.

The Bi-Polar model is first advocated in the book The Sea-Earth Globe and and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions, (Zetetes, 1918). However, the layout of the continents is left ambiguous due to lack of data. The layout and dimensions of the continents in our picture may be different as well. Someone apparently just found a map projection of a globe that looked similar for illustrative purposes.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2018, 12:08:47 PM
Yes, it's true that 100 years ago many prominent FE'ers rejected the monopole model. Since then, 100 years have passed, and most of those guys are pretty dead.
Well that's a new one. An appeal to sentience.  ;)

@David, this contradicts how we are told most flights from the US come up over the North pole on the way to Europe these days. We had a huge hoo-har some years ago about how flights could now go over the North Pole (Santa's shortcut) and how many long haul flights would be doing so. Turns out that was a fabrication.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078301/Mind-sleigh-Airlines-given-permission-fly-North-Pole-time-slashing-hours-exotic-destinations.html

Airlines tend to lie a lot to drum up interest. This week Emirates are claiming that by not having windows, their aircraft will be more rigid and be able to fly higher and faster.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44383220
The airline says it paves the way for removing all windows from future planes, making them lighter and faster.
It is clear that this is nonsense. Air liners fly in the trans-sonic range. Taking the windows out isn't going to make them supersonic. And the altitude will be the same because the engines will stay the same so their efficiency isn't going to change. A prime example of Airlines lying to make you think they are doing something to improve your service when they aren't.

I think what your image actually shows it that airlines are risk adverse and avoid wilderness. The don't fly much over the Sahara, the North or South Pole, and they take the shortest route possible over the sea in the case of both the Pacific and the Atlantic.

Another great map though. Really like it.

Can I ask you try this one if you are experimenting?
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/2916

It is a very famous NASA Composite. Would be interesting to see a version in your 'flat earth' format. I think would be very pretty.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2018, 12:16:24 PM
Ahhh, someone has done it.

(https://nevergrind.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/firmamentWarsNight2.jpg)



I made the map below myself in 2011 ... I suck at making maps. Nice to see someone improved it.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/o5zvxg.png)

To all the RErs who always moan "Why don't you lot ever make maps" ... we do! When you google search 'flat earth maps', who the hell do you think made them all? A lot of them come from THIS community.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2018, 12:20:29 PM
Meh, someone stole it for pininterest?
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/760475087049538608/

I was trying to show the spotlight sun and the moon with a nice image ...

(http://i56.tinypic.com/slkajc.png)

This is the point I gave up. Imagination was trumped by lack of MS Paint skill.

Since then people have trumped it with far better models
https://www.motionelements.com/stock-video-10004278-zoom-out-and-revolution-rotation-around-flat-earth-3d-model-satellite-map

But back in the day we only had stuff like below
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/d7/00/50d7003b4bd030b2df353bdbc6281a09.jpg)

I'd like to think our feeble efforts contributed to spark the imagination of those that came after and made flat earth what it is today.  :)
I've since retired from map and model making.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 09, 2018, 01:14:42 PM
What is the date and time in either of the two images above?

Also: when does the sun ever cast a perfect circle?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2018, 01:16:05 PM
What is the date and time in either of the two images above?

Also: when does the sun ever cast a perfect circle?
How about you have a go before complaining about my efforts? Only takes 10 seconds to make an objection.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 09, 2018, 01:17:32 PM
If you read that comment carefully you'll see there are neither complaints nor objections, but rather two questions - and pertinent ones at that.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 09, 2018, 01:21:22 PM
You clearly missed what I was trying to achieve.

I took a 200 year old sketch and tried to add some photo realism to it. That's it. That's all it is. To make it more imaginable.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 09, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
You clearly missed what I was trying to achieve.

I took a 200 year old sketch and tried to add some photo realism to it. That's it. That's all it is. To make it more imaginable.

I guess I did. It was the bit where you were talking about making maps and defending against accusations that flat earthers didn't do that that threw me.

Fair enough. x
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 09, 2018, 02:50:25 PM


I will remember that in future.
Make no mistake, friendo - I'm also not the infallible FE prophet you're looking for. The next time you try smugly explaining to Tom that "b-but Pete said", you're likely to get a similar response.

You are completely missing the point of this. We're a group that openly advocates the defiance of any authority, and you're sitting here getting grumpy over the fact that we have no authorities.

I am not looking for an “infallible FE prophet” I dont think such a beast exists!

Who’s getting grumpy? Not me. Projecting an attitude onto me is irrelevant, and as is commonly pointed out feelings have no place in the debate.

I do understand that there are likely as many different models of the FE as there are FE supporters, so will try to form my questions more carefully in the future, and thank you for your invaluable insights and lessons, I will take them on board, and hopefully it will make me a better debating opponent.

Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: AATW on June 09, 2018, 05:57:35 PM
It is clear that this is nonsense. Air liners fly in the trans-sonic range. Taking the windows out isn't going to make them supersonic. And the altitude will be the same because the engines will stay the same so their efficiency isn't going to change. A prime example of Airlines lying to make you think they are doing something to improve your service when they aren't.
I presume you have expertise in aerodynamics?
The claim is not that it will make them supersonic, the claim is that they will be structurally stronger and be able to fly faster and more efficiently.
How is this clearly nonsense? I'm not an expert in aerodynamics but it sounds right that a smooth fuselage is potentially a better aerodynamic shape than one with regular indents for windows and therefore the planes could fly more efficiently.
They should be stronger too - clearly the windows are potential weak points.
Why do you think everyone is lying to you all the time even when what they're saying makes sense? They've already started doing this on some planes in first class:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2018/06/emirates-airline-unveils-new-virtual-windows-for-first-class-passengers.html

The suggestion is they may do this throughout the whole plane. Not sure I like the idea but the claims about efficiency sound right.
Airlines are primarily interested in efficiency. I have no idea why you think they would be lying about this.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 09, 2018, 06:15:33 PM
So I've been looking for flight data to correct my map. openflights.org has lots of data on airports and routes but unfortunately, it doesn't include estimated flight times which is crucial.

They do however, have an Equirectuangual projection showing flight routes, so I have worked my Peirce Quincuncial Projection magic on this image to show exactly where my map fails.



It's interesting to see how few flights venture over the north pole.

So I really need a database of estimates flight times to continue. If any of you know about this, please let me know.

I'd like to applaud you for going through this effort - and I'm sorry for the distractions on this thread (which I have contributed to, and for which I apologize.)

This is good work, looking at where your model fails and how to improve.

As for tables of estimated flight times, I don't have a good source for that - but you can get individual flight estimates by searching on Google for (for example) "flights auckland to doha"

Make sure you find nonstop flights for the best numbers.

For example, in the search for "flights auckland to doha" I see Qatar airways has a nonstop. So I then search for "qatar auckland to doha" and get a flight number (see attachment - Qatar 921)

Once you have the flight number you can see actual tracks for the past few flights:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR921

Here's one from a couple of days ago:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR921/history/20180606/0225Z/NZAA/OTHH

If the map looks weird, look for a "three lines" button in the upper right and you can change the map images.

Similarly, here's Sydney to Santiago: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA27/history/20180606/0303Z/YSSY/SCEL
Here's Shanghai to San Jose: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CCA830/history/20180531/1750Z/KSJC/ZSPD
Here's JFK to Hong Kong: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CPA845/history/20180605/0535Z/KJFK/VHHH
Note the other direction doesn't go over the pole due to taking advantage of the jetstream over the pacific:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CPA830/history/20180603/0115Z/VHHH/KJFK

It might be a fair amount of work to look these up, but it's a start.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 09, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
Can I ask you try this one if you are experimenting?
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/2916

It is a very famous NASA Composite. Would be interesting to see a version in your 'flat earth' format. I think would be very pretty.

Sure man, thanks, here you go...

(https://image.ibb.co/cOX18T/nasa_at_night.png)

In my video, I mention that the Peirce Quincuncial Projection was developed by Charles Sanders Peirce in 1879 and Greenwich in London was selected as the Prime Meridian international standard in 1884. Just 5 year apart.

Greenwich in London is located on 1 of 4 lines of longitude that cause the Peirce Quincuncial Projection to distort only a few small areas of land.

Is this just a coincidence?
Is there a connection between Charles Sanders Peirce and London?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 10, 2018, 06:01:28 AM
It's more the other way around: the line of longitude was centred on Greenwich, by humans.

We now call that line the 'prime meridian' - but there were other claimants to that title back in the day: 0 degrees could just as easily have been centred on Paris.

Do lines of longitude actually exist? Or are they merely man-made constructs and delineations?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 10, 2018, 06:42:29 AM
It's more the other way around: the line of longitude was centred on Greenwich, by humans.

We now call that line the 'prime meridian' - but there were other claimants to that title back in the day: 0 degrees could just as easily have been centred on Paris.

Do lines of longitude actually exist? Or are they merely man-made constructs and delineations?

Apart from the ones man made in Greenwich and Paris i am not sure.
Zero or the prime meridian could be pretty much anywhere on earth.

However there are no natural lines at all on earth that correspond to meridians of longitude.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 10, 2018, 06:48:53 AM
Those don't "actually exist" either. As in, there are an infinite number of lines joining the north and south poles, and any one of them could have been the "zero line".

The tropics, on the other hand, and the equator could be said to "exist in reality", given that they actually represent something real. Same perhaps for the lines of latitude that represent the angles to the sun/north and south celestial poles (ie, all of them).¿

I guess what I'm saying is there's no discernible reason for David Apple to draw lines of longitude on his map. The tropics and the equator, though, should be represented.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 10, 2018, 09:04:35 AM
Those don't "actually exist" either. As in, there are an infinite number of lines joining the north and south poles, and any one of them could have been the "zero line".

The tropics, on the other hand, and the equator could be said to "exist in reality", given that they actually represent something real. Same perhaps for the lines of latitude that represent the angles to the sun/north and south celestial poles (ie, all of them).¿

I guess what I'm saying is there's no discernible reason for David Apple to draw lines of longitude on his map. The tropics and the equator, though, should be represented.

I agree the London meridian being the 'zero line' is a matter of convention. But given any point on the earth, there is a longitude line going through it, and that line exists in reality, in that there is a measurement corresponding to it. Anything that can be measured, exists in reality.

Which brings me to another point about the map. Lines of longitude are straight, and that straightness really exists (relative to the surface of the earth). Why are they curved on the Peirce map?

[edit] Most commentaries will say that lat and long are 'imaginary lines'. Clearly: they are not lines drawn on chalk on the earth. But then chalk lines are not lines either: look at them closely and they contain all sorts of irregularities. No true line, i.e. nothing that is truly the shortest distance between two points, exists, all lines are imaginary.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 10, 2018, 12:00:27 PM
I'd say the equator and the Tropics exist, and that any flat earth map ought to have these drawn on them, at a minimum.

It could also have a straight line drawn from the north pole through Greenwich, for convention's sake, called zero degrees.

I guess once you have that it's a matter of common sense that there are other lines of longitude - but there's no way they should bend, but merely work as the spokes of a wheel, with the north pole at its hub. Unless David wants to have the lines of longitude representing the direction to magnetic north, which is a whole other deal entirely (those lines could be said to exist in reality - changing though they are).
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Tontogary on June 10, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
Meridians of longitude all have meridional passage (solar noon) at the same time each day. It makes it impossible on David’s map to have that.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 11, 2018, 03:50:08 AM
I don't think you understand the point that I am trying to make.

Yes, the prime meridian is an arbitrary line of longitude. It is man-made. Humans decided to center the world around Greenwich in London. They could just have easily decided to center it around the Giza pyramids in Egypt, New York, Quebec, Tokyo, Auckland or anywhere.

The point that I am trying to make is: when you convert the Equrectangual map projection into the Peirce Quincuncial Projection you have to choose a line of longitude to center the projection. If you choose to center the map around Reykjavik in Iceland, you end up with a map projection that shows Ne Zaland as very far away from Australia. This is the image used on Wikipedia with Reykjavik in Iceland as the prime meridian of the Equrectangual map projection used to create the image.

However, if you use the real prime meridian in Greenwich London to create the Peirce Quincuncial Projection from the Equrectangual map projection. There is very small distortion to large land masses. The only areas of land that are distorted quite a lot are tiny islands in the middle of the sea.

So, it is quite a coincidence that the prime meridian that we use around the world has this property. The property of causing very little distortion when used to create the Peirce Quincuncial Projection.

Delving a little deeper, we see Greenwich chosen in 1884 and the Peirce Quincuncial Projection chosen in 1879. Just 5 years apart. That's interesting isn't it?...

I hope someone out there understands what I am trying to say. I have yet to get any feedback on this incredible coincidence and the fact that Wikipedia are showing the incorrectly calculated image.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 11, 2018, 04:25:15 AM
There are only three major land masses South of the equator (other than Antarctica.) I'm not sure how much to attribute to this brings a coincidence.

Note though that if you include Antarctica, no choice of meridian results in an accurate map. Land that straddles the pole is a big problem for your projection
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 11, 2018, 04:44:30 AM
Note though that if you include Antarctica, no choice of meridian results in an accurate map. Land that straddles the pole is a big problem for your projection

It is impossible for any member of the public to calculate the full shape of the coast of Antarctica.

You are missing the point.

Do I have to calculate 10 versions of the Peirce Quincuncial Projection with different prime meridians for you to understand exactly how much of a coincidence this is? If so, give me 10 randomly chosen locations on the Earth and I will.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 11, 2018, 06:05:16 AM
I may be missing the point. I thought you were trying to create an accurate flat earth map. But are you now saying you just want to create a more accurate PQ projection?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: douglips on June 11, 2018, 06:06:12 AM
Before we get too excited, how distorted is Sumatra on your map? How distorted is Africa? The coastline of Africa has an almost 90 degree angle in the Gulf of Guinea that you appear to have nearly completely straightened out. On your map, you'd never think South America and Africa fit together like jigsaw puzzles, but they should look like that.

There are three major land masses south of the equator besides Antarctica. You could find many ways to slice the map that would work equally well, for example, right now you have four quadrants on your map. What if you had 3 sections, or 5 or six?

I'm just not that excited that you think this is a great coincidence given the drastic mistreatments of things like the shape of Africa or the size of Sumatra.
Why is moving New Zealand farther away from Australia a bigger problem to you than blowing up Sumatra to be way bigger than Japan? In real life they are nearly the same size.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 11, 2018, 06:44:07 AM
I may be missing the point. I thought you were trying to create an accurate flat earth map. But are you now saying you just want to create a more accurate PQ projection?

I'm simply asking if there is a connection between Greenwich and Charles Sanders Peirce.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 11, 2018, 07:14:13 AM
I may be missing the point. I thought you were trying to create an accurate flat earth map. But are you now saying you just want to create a more accurate PQ projection?

I'm simply asking if there is a connection between Greenwich and Charles Sanders Peirce.

I wouldn't have thought so. Probably as you say above: the proximity of the dates is simply coincidence.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 11, 2018, 08:32:35 AM
I may be missing the point. I thought you were trying to create an accurate flat earth map. But are you now saying you just want to create a more accurate PQ projection?

I'm simply asking if there is a connection between Greenwich and Charles Sanders Peirce.

I wouldn't have thought so. Probably as you say above: the proximity of the dates is simply coincidence.
Peirce is now known as a philosopher and logician, but from 1859 to 1891 he was employed by the U. S. Coast and Geodetic Survey. That would explain his interest in projections. And the late 19th century saw a culmination of various geodetic projects to measure the shape of the earth.

So not a coincidence, but of no particular significance, in my view.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 11, 2018, 09:03:20 AM
I may be missing the point. I thought you were trying to create an accurate flat earth map. But are you now saying you just want to create a more accurate PQ projection?

I'm simply asking if there is a connection between Greenwich and Charles Sanders Peirce.

I wouldn't have thought so. Probably as you say above: the proximity of the dates is simply coincidence.
Peirce is now known as a philosopher and logician, but from 1859 to 1891 he was employed by the U. S. Coast and Geodetic Survey. That would explain his interest in projections. And the late 19th century saw a culmination of various geodetic projects to measure the shape of the earth.

So not a coincidence, but of no particular significance, in my view.

It is significant. Here is the evidence.

(https://image.ibb.co/eRpL58/projections.png)

Notice how New Zealand is thrown out when calculated with the prime meridian in Mexico. Similar to when calculating from Reykjavik.

London seems like the only place that preserves the shapes of 99% of land masses. This seems like more than a coincidence to me.

Does anyone know the official reason why Greenwich was chosen as the prime meridian?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 11, 2018, 09:13:37 AM
London seems like the only place that preserves the shapes of 99% of land masses. This seems like more than a coincidence to me.

Does anyone know the official reason why Greenwich was chosen as the prime meridian?
Big competition between English and French, who had their own Paris meridian. French gave way in the end, in return for some concession. Purely political reason.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 11, 2018, 10:08:49 AM
Does anyone know the official reason why Greenwich was chosen as the prime meridian?

Wikipedia seems like a good place to start if you're interested in the history of the prime meridian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_meridian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_meridian)
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 11, 2018, 07:49:33 PM
London seems like the only place that preserves the shapes of 99% of land masses. This seems like more than a coincidence to me.

Does anyone know the official reason why Greenwich was chosen as the prime meridian?
Big competition between English and French, who had their own Paris meridian. French gave way in the end, in return for some concession. Purely political reason.

I find a hard to believe that it was purely a political reason when this line of longitude works so perfectly to create the Peirce Quincuncial projection (which was developed just 5 years before).

I understand if you have doubts that this projection is an actual flat Earth map. But this "political coincidence" leads me to believe that it is part of the jigsaw puzzle.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: iamcpc on June 11, 2018, 08:25:45 PM
I find a hard to believe that it was purely a political reason when this line of longitude works so perfectly to create the Peirce Quincuncial projection (which was developed just 5 years before).

I understand if you have doubts that this projection is an actual flat Earth map. But this "political coincidence" leads me to believe that it is part of the jigsaw puzzle.

The only real problem with this is the shipping times and flight times and distances.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Round Eyes on June 11, 2018, 08:32:45 PM
my favorite part of these flat earth maps is how latitude and longitude apparently have no real meaning and are treated as just lines on a piece of paper.  there is a reason you can determine your lat/long anywhere on earth with some simple tools.  They have observable characteristics as it relates to the globe and your location.  They are NOT part of some Round Earth conspiracy.  If you want to create a flat earth map and at least remove some of the issues, just delete the lines.  if you are going to make a fake map, dont try and fake the lat/long.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 12, 2018, 10:13:25 AM
my favorite part of these flat earth maps is how latitude and longitude apparently have no real meaning and are treated as just lines on a piece of paper. 
Are you suggesting there are large blue lines painted across the ocean? Or are they just lines on a piece of paper?
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 12, 2018, 12:09:52 PM
my favorite part of these flat earth maps is how latitude and longitude apparently have no real meaning and are treated as just lines on a piece of paper. 
Are you suggesting there are large blue lines painted across the ocean? Or are they just lines on a piece of paper?
They have real meaning and are used to calculate shipping distances.
Quote
Knowledge of a ship's east-west position was essential when approaching land. After a long voyage, cumulative errors in dead reckoning frequently led to shipwrecks and a great loss of life. Avoiding such disasters became vital in Harrison's lifetime, in an era when trade and navigation were increasing dramatically around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison
You know Harrison’s story, right?

Quote
The Scilly naval disaster of 1707 was the loss of four warships of a Royal Navy fleet off the Isles of Scilly in severe weather on 22 October 1707. 1550 sailors lost their lives aboard the wrecked vessels, making the incident one of the worst maritime disasters in British naval history. The disaster has been attributed to the navigators' inability to accurately calculate their positions, to errors in the available charts and pilot books, to inadequate compasses and to a combination of these factors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 12, 2018, 12:17:50 PM
I understand if you have doubts that this projection is an actual flat Earth map. But this "political coincidence" leads me to believe that it is part of the jigsaw puzzle.
I have doubts that it represents the actual distances, both sea and land, to anything like the right amount. Is that what you meant?

I don't understand the 'jigsaw puzzle' bit at all.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: davidapple on June 12, 2018, 01:06:33 PM
I don't understand the 'jigsaw puzzle' bit at all.

Do you understand the 'political coincidence'? I've described it repeatedly at length.
Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: edby on June 12, 2018, 01:09:12 PM
I don't understand the 'jigsaw puzzle' bit at all.

Do you understand the 'political coincidence'? I've described it repeatedly at length.
I don't understand the importance you seem to ascribe to it. Peirce was working on his own in his eccentric way, some committee or other decided to place the prime meridian in London. I don't understand why there should be any relationship between these events.

Title: Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection
Post by: Max_Almond on June 12, 2018, 01:13:06 PM
my favorite part of these flat earth maps is how latitude and longitude apparently have no real meaning and are treated as just lines on a piece of paper. 
Are you suggesting there are large blue lines painted across the ocean? Or are they just lines on a piece of paper?

Are they real or are they man-made is essentially the question.

I think the answer is: "a bit of both".

But, yes, lines of latitude do represent something tangible which relates to reality, so they can't just be added willy nilly to a flat earth map.