The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2018, 07:18:41 PM
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According to the Round Earth model the inner planets, specifically Venus and Mercury, are orbiting the sun closer than the Earth and the outer planets are. The night side of the earth is pointing away from the sun, yet it is possible to see Venus and Mercury at night.
Here is a scale model found on Wikipedia (click to enlarge):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/The_Solar_System_-_Lowell_-_Fig._01.jpg)
Assuming that the Round Earth is always half lit by the sun as so:
(https://c.tadst.com/gfx/750x500/new-moon-phase.png)
With the lit side of the earth always pointing towards the sun, how could we see Mercury and Venus at night?
Venus can be seen at times all throughout the night. See this article as an example Planet Venus Visible All Night Long This Weekend (https://amp.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html):
This weekend, Venus should appear in the western sky at sunset, weather permitting, and should be visible as a dazzling sky watching target nearly all night long.
This is curious. How is Venus viewable "all night long"?
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Dammit Tom, I thought this would be irrefutable, but it was actually pretty easy to find an explanation.
https://www.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html
We'll get em next time. :(
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They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.
The Space.com link self admits that seeing Venus in the middle of the night should be impossible, and provides some sort of convoluted "explanation" without illustration.
Venus's nightly view
Some astronomy guidebooks will tell you that because Venus is a so-called "inferior" planet — a world that is closer to the sun than Earth — that you can never see it in the middle of the night. But this week, for many locations, Venus will be visible at the witching hour and for some localities well beyond the stroke of midnight!
The reason that this is possible is two-fold:
First, although Venus has started its march back toward the sun's vicinity, this process initially is rather slow. Indeed, this week Venus' elongation from the sun measures 44 degrees; just 2 degrees shy of its greatest elongation that it attained about three weeks ago. (Your closed fist held at arm's length covers about 10 degrees of the sky).
In the interim, Venus has been progressing eastward along the ecliptic and in the process also moving northward through that part of the sky that the sun itself will be traversing during May and June. In other words, Venus has been describing a high arc across the sky, which is why at sunset it appears from mid-northern latitudes to be nearly halfway from the horizon to the point directly overhead (the zenith).
This explanation is not clear. It is supposed to describe something that is impossible.
I found an image from the New Jersey Institute of Technology which illustrates, with a top-down view, the idea of Venus being at or near "the greatest elongation from the sun," as Space.com tries to use as an explanation.
(https://web.njit.edu/~gary/320/assets/Inner_distance.gif)
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
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That was their "first reason". Lets see what their "second reason" is.
The other reason is that because the length of daylight is increasing, the sun is setting progressively later. But a more important factor came into play on the second Sunday in March (the 11th) when most places in North America observed the start of Daylight Saving Time.
Indeed, pushing the clock ahead forestalled (for an hour) the setting of the sun, as well as the setting of Venus. So, for example, from New York City, this week Venus would appear to set at 10:36 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, but adding the extra hour delays Venus’ setting until 11:36 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time (EDT).
But over the April 15th, 2012 weekend, the weekend in question, the length of the day for mid-northern latitudes (I chose San Francisco) was just under 13 hours according to http://www.solartopo.com/daylength.htm
(https://i.imgur.com/p9UbYuT.png)
This is even worse for their "explanation".
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So you are happy to take this websites data of sunrise/set then? I recall that when such websites were used to argue against you their evidence was refuted.
As to your point, yes with your diagram as drawn seeing the planet at night would be impossible, but by shifting said planet up or down it would be clearly visible from the dark side of earth......try again
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So you are happy to take this websites data of sunrise/set then? I recall that when such websites were used to argue against you their evidence was refuted.
As to your point, yes with your diagram as drawn seeing the planet at night would be impossible, but by shifting said planet up or down it would be clearly visible from the dark side of earth......try again
We are constantly told that these calculators are based on Round Earth Theory, and should be correct according to your model (I actually believe it is based on patterns and trends, but I digress). The results, according to the RE authorities, are correct for the Round Earth model, and not wrong in a way that makes planets visible that should not be visible.
Venus has an orbital inclination of only 3°23'40" degrees, and Mercury has an orbital inclination of only 7°00'16" degrees. How does this make it more possible?
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Maybe flag up your concerns to an astronomical authority, for you Americans I guess NASA would be your first choice? If you've stumbled on something as big as this they'll thank you I'm sure.
I've seen Saturn through a telescope, rings and all, very fleeting as it flashed across the viewfinder mind, a wonderful moment! The world of astronomy is a huge arena which has only just had it's surface scratched, issues like the one you've raised can only help us all better understand it I guess.
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"I give up, astronomy is wrong."
Is that the answer we are hearing?
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Certainly not from me, Simply that when out in scale the universe is sooooooo old and soooooo BIG that our understanding of it is still in its infancy. But difference to it being wrong.
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First issue with the article:
The headline is a bit exaggerated, if you read the text thoroughly, at a place 30°N Venus will set about 3.5 hours after the sun.
Painting diagrams and sketches could be a rather tedious job. Something better:
The rise and set of Venus follows the same principles as the sun rise and set.
First iteration: The direction to Venus is about 45° behind the direction to the sun. So Venus rise and set will be 3 hours (globe will turn 45° in 3 hours) after sun rise and set. That already comes near the 3.5 hours for places 30°N
Second iteration: Tilt of earth axis, solstice: Due to these 45° also the "season" for Venus is different than that for the sun.
At summer solstice the earth axis is tilted towards the sun, we observe the longest days, longest time between sun rise and set. Currently there's no solstice for the sun, but for Venus. The earth axis is tilted towards Venus, so maximizing time between Venus rise and set.
I'm not sure, if I could calculate it exactly, so an estimation. For places about 49°N, daytime at summer solstice is 4 hours longer (total about 16 hours) than at equinox. So sunset is delayed by about 2 hours. Same thing applied for Venus could give another hour or more for the Venus setting. This comes near those 5.5 hours for places 60°N, like mentioned in the article.
And third iteration: Daylight saving time will shift the clock another hour. But this is only a clock shift.
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They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.
It really is quite amazing how confident you are in your understanding of things like this.
Especially given the number of different things you didn't understand about a simple experiment with a laser and boat despite 3 people trying to explain it to you.
And all the while you kept shouting that it was us who didn't understand before realising you were wrong...
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They have "explanations" for everything.
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...
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Position of Venus in it's orbit in relation to Earth, Earth's axis tilt/season, high enough latitudes... I'm not seeing a problem.
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The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.
(https://septisphere.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/earth-north-midsummer.png)
The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus at late hours in their sky.
They have "explanations" for everything.
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...
The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.
The theory that Mercury and Venus orbit close to the sun as inner planets must be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made. If Mercury and Venus are not where they are asserted to be then it all falls apart.
NASA has claimed to have sent space probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have made calculations under the RET model to get them there. Why haven't they told us that they are not really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?
If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.
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The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.
(https://septisphere.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/earth-north-midsummer.png)
The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.
They have "explanations" for everything.
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...
Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development. Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.
The theory that Mercury and Venus orbits the sun MUST to be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made.
NASA has claimed to have sent probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have all of the RET calculations that got them there. Why haven't they told us that they aren't really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?
If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.
How does what you're asking mean they aren't inner planets???
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The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.
(https://septisphere.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/earth-north-midsummer.png)
The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.
They have "explanations" for everything.
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...
The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.
The theory that Mercury and Venus orbit close to the sun as inner planets must be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made. If Mercury and Venus are not where they are asserted to be then it all falls apart.
NASA has claimed to have sent space probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have made calculations under the RET model to get them there. Why haven't they told us that they are not really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?
If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.
If we cannot explain this, nothing. Looks to me like everything was explained in that article, you simply fail to grasp it once again. You just recently showed how difficult a simple bit of geometry was for you to understand, and I'm still not sold you actually get it. Why is it on us to give you an education on these subjects? If you're going to object to something, you need to at least show you understand what you're talking about first. Which at this point? It's not clear you have.
To put it plainly, I grok the idea behind how it works. Something to do with the angles, and the late night viewing is because of daylight savings time. The second being a key part of this. But as I've told other people asking more technical questions like this, if you want in depth technical information on these sorts of things? Try a forum like Quora. IF someone with the knowledge/expertise happens to be around here, I'm sure they'd be up for helping sort some of this out. But while I think I've got a handle on what's going on here, after the last attempt to explain something far simple, I doubt I could explain it well enough for you to accept/get it too. My inability to do that says nothing about the veracity of this or NASA however.
I'd also like to gently remind you, midnight local time =/= midnight solar time the vast majority of the time.
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The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.
(https://septisphere.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/earth-north-midsummer.png)
The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.
There is no problem if you understand it and can envision it in 3-d.
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This is not to scale.
It only shows the basic principle how can we see Venus at night.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2q2lnrb.png)
EDIT:
For more details one would need more accurate drawing in 3D.
Maybe something similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mQgBUukg9s
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Tom; please refer once or twice more to reply #9, and model it for yourself in 3D, taking into account axial tilt as well as position of Venus.
Showing us 2D diagrams which may or may not be applicable for the particular time of year don't cut it.
In pure 2D terms, the angle between the Sun-Earth line and Earth-Venus line is around 36 degrees, and if the Earth were perfectly aligned perpendicular to the orbital planes, that would determine how far into night Venus could be seen. But the Earth isn't aligned this way. Put the axial tilt toward Venus, and all of a sudden, it's visible to more of the Earth at Northern latitudes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_8hyiFeQlw
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Especially given the number of different things you didn't understand about a simple experiment with a laser and boat despite 3 people trying to explain it to you.
And all the while you kept shouting that it was us who didn't understand before realising you were wrong...
First, this is not about laser and boat.
Second, he DOES understand these things, but his understanding is ruining his "proof".
He's not stupid at all.
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Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development.
I am reading a well written book titled "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth" written by Christine Garwood.
It tracks the Flat Earth model from as early at circa 302-311 in the works of Firmianus Lactantius. In the third book of his "Divine Institutions" - "On the False Wisdom of the Philosophers" he "...ridiculed the notion of a sphere where people on the other side lived with their feet above their heads, rain..." (From Page 9, "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth")
"The Christian topography of Cosmas[sig]" by Indicopleustes, circa 548, also attacks the idea of the earth being a sphere.
Christine Garwood's book goes on to detail the history of the Flat earth idea all the way up to the 1970's. She introduces the reader to many of the characters involved in the flat earth debate - Joseph Holden, Lady Elizabeth Anne Mould Blount, Wilbur Glenn Voliva, Shenton, Charles K. Johnson, Robert J. Schadewald, Samuel Bieley Rowbotham (I called him self, lectured, and wrote under the name Parallax) ...
Your saying that the "Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development" raises the question - how long is it going to take for the "theory" to be "developed."
But - hold on a minute - as used in science, the word "theory" is defined as:
"a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation: the scientific theory of evolution."
Scientific theory | Define Scientific theory at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/scientific-theory (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scientific-theory)
The flat earth idea has not yet cleared the bar to be called a scientific theory. It is an idea, a model, etc. but not a scientific "theory."
If you want to look at some of the published works about the flat earth idea, go to https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony1899WinshipRectangle1899 (https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony1899WinshipRectangle1899) to get "Flat Earth Book Collection Archive Study Pack zetetics"
If you have not used archive.org much and don't understand how to download a zipped file containing all of the publications on this archive.org page, you can use this link to download the zip file containing the 63 PDFs. The size of the zip file is 316 MB and the 63 PDFs will take up 307 MB when unzipped.
Everyone, on any side of this "debate" should read the publications in this "Study Pack"
I also recommend that everyone read the book (which I referred to above) "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth" written by Christine Garwood.
Here's a page where you can find places where you can buy the book - yes, "buy" it is still under copyright. https://www.find-more-books.com/book/isbn/9781429986946.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_ZrXBRDXARIsAA8KauTVVTQEl0cxMZSrUSlNgfAoGSFWvIfAiHUWvw0WWXL7YmxS5dWEDb4aArUUEALw_wcB (https://www.find-more-books.com/book/isbn/9781429986946.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_ZrXBRDXARIsAA8KauTVVTQEl0cxMZSrUSlNgfAoGSFWvIfAiHUWvw0WWXL7YmxS5dWEDb4aArUUEALw_wcB)
I paid $13.79 for a used hardcover copy from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312382081/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312382081/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Tom - I strongly suggest you read about the "idea" you are pushing so hard before talking about its "developmental state."
I am reading everything I can find about the flat earth idea and I've found a huge number of publications about it and its history, you should do the same.
On another issue - can someone tell me how to insert a link without having the entire URL showing, that is, how do I put in a link such as "Click Here for more information" and have the actual URL not shown?
Seeker
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On another issue - can someone tell me how to insert a link without having the entire URL showing, that is, how do I put in a link such as "Click Here for more information" and have the actual URL not shown?
You use the tag with link inside the URL opening, and just text between opening and closing tag.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsEHLSPiDNM]Si Dahashe[/url]
And it shows this:
Si Dahashe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsEHLSPiDNM)
(Mouse over to see the URL in the status bar.)
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"I give up, astronomy is wrong."
Is that the answer we are hearing?
I’m sorry Mr. Bishop but the problem here is not with astronomy, it’s more to do with your lack of understanding of the subject. Your initial question is clear proof of that. If you knew and understood that the solar system is 3D and not 2D, like your diagrams, and you actually knew and understood about the nature of the orbits of the inner planets then you would never have asked the question.
Where ,can I ask, have you gleaned your knowledge of astronomy from? As I understand that there are no flat earth run observatories here on the earth. If you were series and really wanted to expand your knowledge of the inner planets and their orbits then a visit to your nearest observatory would have accomplished that.
The orbits,particularly of those planets that are visible with the naked eye, have been known about and understood for many hundreds of years.
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Really Tom, Using Wikipedia to try to prove something, it is one of the very first things the home page warns about, so you fell for it.
Well i never thought i would, but i agree with Tom Bishop!
Well on one point, sort of.
He said that Venus cannot be seen in the middle of the night, and that is true for certain parents of the earth at certain times of the year!
Venus is closer to the sun than earth, correct (although he says he doesn’t believe it)
Thus when Venus is between the earth and the sun you cannot see it. Well you can see it transit across the sun, but need some special equipment or you will be blinded, so dont try it. Also when it is close to the sun you cannot see it.
However there are a few physics laws which apply to the orbits and speeds and arcs, these are Kepler laws of planetary orbits. Please feel free to challenge the Zetetically if you wish.
As the orbit of Venus is closer to the sun, the orbital period is less, so that Venus is not always between the sun and the earth. Venus orbits the sun every 2256 days, as opposed to the earths 365 1/4 days.
At the present time Venus is at about 23 1/2 degrees North declination (coincidentally, the nearly the same as the sun during summer solstice) which will mean that Venus is visible in high latitudes all night, close to the artic circle, as at present it is lagging behind the sun for the time of meridian passage.
Tom also does not qualify what “middle of the night” is.
In the UK Venus is known as the morning or evening star, which means that it is visible in the early morning, before Sunrise, when it is in advance of the sun, disappearing from normal view when it is close to the sun, as it can only be seen during the day with special equipment, and then when it lags behind the sun, it becomes the evening star.
Surely Tom has heard of Venus being called this? It has been so for thousands of years.
Venus is also the most explored (still not a great deal) planet with probes and missions going back some many decades.
Nasa is not faking this, and they didnt “neglect” to mention that Venus is in an inner orbit, because it actually is!
The first probe went in 1962, over 50 years ago. The soviets landed there in the late 60s, and later soviet mission returned data from the surface in 1970. There have been a fair few other missions from both Nasa and the USSR, so either they were both lying or both in collusion at the hieght of the Cold War.
Over 30 missions from Nasa, Russia, European space agency and the Japanese have been there, orbited or flew past. Hard to believe they all colluded.
Mercury is even closer to the sun, but can be seen early in the morning, just before sunrise, or just after sunset, low on the horizon, as its orbit is closer to the sun, when its orbit is 90 degrees LHA away from the earths it is just visible.
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Your saying that the "Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development" raises the question - how long is it going to take for the "theory" to be "developed."
It will take as long as it takes. You seem to think that anyone's understanding of the world is a singular and completeable task - it is neither of those things.
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The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.
The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.
[/quote]
Really Tom?
We are told by FEers that the Flat earth is stated in the bible and ancient scriptures? Are they wrong now? Do you dispute this? EnaG also puts this argument across, do you now say it is wrong?
FE was a given fact until “heretics” like Copernicus started to question it. Then Round Earth was proved to be the case. FE “truth” was around long before global earth, and you guys still cant get your act together to decide what shape, dimensions or physical attributes actually are?
Also if Flat Earth is a “theory” does not EnaG warn that theories are not to be trusted? Surely you have read the preface to EnaG? I have copied below for you, it is strange you do not follow his advice about Theories?
“. We need not seize upon every crude and ill-developed result which offers, or only seems to offer, the slightest chance of becoming evidence in our favour, as every theorist is obliged to do if he would have his theory clothed and fit to be seen.”
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They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.
The Space.com link self admits that seeing Venus in the middle of the night should be impossible, and provides some sort of convoluted "explanation" without illustration.
Venus's nightly view
Some astronomy guidebooks will tell you that because Venus is a so-called "inferior" planet — a world that is closer to the sun than Earth — that you can never see it in the middle of the night. But this week, for many locations, Venus will be visible at the witching hour and for some localities well beyond the stroke of midnight!
The reason that this is possible is two-fold:
First, although Venus has started its march back toward the sun's vicinity, this process initially is rather slow. Indeed, this week Venus' elongation from the sun measures 44 degrees; just 2 degrees shy of its greatest elongation that it attained about three weeks ago. (Your closed fist held at arm's length covers about 10 degrees of the sky).
In the interim, Venus has been progressing eastward along the ecliptic and in the process also moving northward through that part of the sky that the sun itself will be traversing during May and June. In other words, Venus has been describing a high arc across the sky, which is why at sunset it appears from mid-northern latitudes to be nearly halfway from the horizon to the point directly overhead (the zenith).
This explanation is not clear. It is supposed to describe something that is impossible.
I found an image from the New Jersey Institute of Technology which illustrates, with a top-down view, the idea of Venus being at or near "the greatest elongation from the sun," as Space.com tries to use as an explanation.
(https://web.njit.edu/~gary/320/assets/Inner_distance.gif)
How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?
Angles.
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This is not to scale.
It only shows the basic principle how can we see Venus at night.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2q2lnrb.png)
EDIT:
For more details one would need more accurate drawing in 3D.
Maybe something similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mQgBUukg9s
But how does your model explain the fact that Venus can be visible all through the night according to this article https://amp.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html
Plus according to your explanation we should see Venus at its waxing crescent phase and not fully lit up as we see it in the sky.
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But how does your model explain the fact that Venus can be visible all through the night according to this article https://amp.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html
Plus according to your explanation we should see Venus at its waxing crescent phase and not fully lit up as we see it in the sky.
The article you linked doesn't say anywhere (except the title) that it will be visible "all through the night." In fact, it says "This also means that Venus remains visible after sunset for between three-and-a-half hours (at 30 degrees North) and five-and-a-half hours (at 60 degrees North)!"
This is not all night long.
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Feel free to make your own solar systems and check for yourselves what it looks like...
https://store.steampowered.com/app/230290/Universe_Sandbox/