The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: sleepybadger on February 26, 2018, 06:28:16 PM
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Genuine question. Why is there no map of the flat earth? Mathematical and cartographic techniques which allow us to accurately map the world have existed for centuries. Why is it then that no map exists of a flat earth which accurately depicts the world?
For example, the map in the wiki shows the Arctic in the centre of the world, with the Antarctic as a ring of ice around the edge, with the continents arranged around the centre. However, the land masses are completely distorted and simply do not correspond with reality.
If the earth is indeed flat then a map on a 2D object (such as paper, or a screen) should show no distortion, whereas any attempt to depict the world as a 3D object would show significant distortion.
Indeed the converse is true - any attempt to show a map of the world on a 2D surface results in distortions, depending on the projection used. Distances and areas no longer accurately represent the earth itself.
It is only when a map of the earth is depicted on a sphere does the map correspond with reality.
Which, combined with other data such as flight times and routes, leads to the inescapable conclusion that the earth is, indeed, spherical. Are there any FE proponents who can explain why this would not be the case?
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Alternatively, why does the mapping of the earth not show it is flat?
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The methods that have been proposed to us all assume that the spherical coordinates in RET are true.
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Hi Tom
I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer. What methods are you referring to?
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Hi Tom
I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer. What methods are you referring to?
We are told to use online distances to "build a map," but the longitude and latitude systems those distances are derived from in navigational equipment are based on a spherical coordinate system.
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Hi Tom
I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer. What methods are you referring to?
We are told to use online distances to "build a map," but the longitude and latitude systems those distances are derived from in navigational equipment are based on a spherical coordinate system.
Who is telling you and what method would you propose? Even using flight times would be a good start.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
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We are told to use online distances to "build a map," but the longitude and latitude systems those distances are derived from in navigational equipment are based on a spherical coordinate system.
And they work.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
Tom, humans have been making maps of the Earth for a LONG time. You don't need to use modern tools to do this. Isn't it just fair to say that there is a general lack of initiative in your community? It is easy to sit back and throw stones at the modern view of the world, but actually proving the Earth is flat would require a level of commitment that I don't think exists.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
Tom, humans have been making maps of the Earth for a LONG time. You don't need to use modern tools to do this. Isn't it just fair to say that there is a general lack of initiative in your community? It is easy to sit back and throw stones at the modern view of the world, but actually proving the Earth is flat would require a level of commitment that I don't think exists.
There is presently a lack of funding for this world mapping venture. If you are prepared to donate, you can paypal the necessary funding for this venture to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com
Thanks.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
Tom, humans have been making maps of the Earth for a LONG time. You don't need to use modern tools to do this. Isn't it just fair to say that there is a general lack of initiative in your community? It is easy to sit back and throw stones at the modern view of the world, but actually proving the Earth is flat would require a level of commitment that I don't think exists.
There is presently a lack of funding for this world mapping venture. If you are prepared to donate, you can paypal the necessary funding for this venture to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com
Thanks.
Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate? Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.
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Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate? Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.
Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
Tom, humans have been making maps of the Earth for a LONG time. You don't need to use modern tools to do this. Isn't it just fair to say that there is a general lack of initiative in your community? It is easy to sit back and throw stones at the modern view of the world, but actually proving the Earth is flat would require a level of commitment that I don't think exists.
There is presently a lack of funding for this world mapping venture. If you are prepared to donate, you can paypal the necessary funding for this venture to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com
Thanks.
Please provide details of how you would run this venture and what equipment and resources is required.
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Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate? Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.
Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.
Basic surveying techniques don't involve longitude and latitude. At the simplest level it simply involves measuring the distance between two fixed points and then using basic equipment to map an area using angles and trigonometry. You start with a blank slate and just map out what you see.
In fact, and I'm happy to be proved wrong here, but using an electronic theodolite, measuring vertical and horizontal angles, and plotting the results into a 3D image you would be able to very simply prove the curvature of the earth (or lack of) by surveying no more than a long, thin strip of land.
There are other options - you could map out areas in the northern and southern hemispheres to give yourself an idea as to the shape of the world.
If the earth is indeed flat then it can be proven. It can be done relatively inexpensively. It can be verified using other inexpensive methods such as getting your many supporters across the globe to plot the location and angle of the sun at specific times on specific days.
The reasons that you give for not doing this (or anything like this) are very revealing. You claim lack of funds. Fine. Buy why are you not actively fundraising? Why are there no proposals to prove your case? Why do you insist that everyone else does your research for you? You are the ones challenging the existing viewpoint.
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There is presently a lack of funding for this world mapping venture. If you are prepared to donate, you can paypal the necessary funding for this venture to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com
Thanks.
Of course there is. It's already been done. The world has been mapped.
The airline industry and cruise line industry get us all around reliably and on time (most of the time).
Clearly the existing maps work. What other work is needed?
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There is presently a lack of funding for this world mapping venture. If you are prepared to donate, you can paypal the necessary funding for this venture to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com
Thanks.
Of course there is. It's already been done. The world has been mapped.
The airline industry and cruise line industry get us all around reliably and on time (most of the time).
Clearly the existing maps work. What other work is needed?
Let's wait for Tom to explain how he going to achieve his project.
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All maps are already flat.
Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?
Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.
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All maps are already flat.
Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?
Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.
Actually maps have a number of purposes.
They show features of geography.
They show the extent of territory and political entities.
They allow you to navigate.
They therefore need to be accurate - otherwise, for example, planes would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.
More importantly they tell us a lot about the shape of the earth. It's not possible to accurately project the surface of a 3D object onto a 2D plane. There will inevitably be distortion.
Similarly it's not possible to accurately project a 2D image onto a 3D surface. Imagine wrapping a ball with a bit of paper - it crumples up and distorts the image.
But - it is absolutely possible to project a 2D surface onto another 2D surface without any distortion.
So, why can't FE proponents come up with an accurate map of what the flat earth looks like? Why has this never been achieved even accidentally in all the years humans have been mapping our planet?
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All maps are already flat.
Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?
Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.
Actually maps have a number of purposes.
They show features of geography.
They show the extent of territory and political entities.
They allow you to navigate.
They therefore need to be accurate - otherwise, for example, planes would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.
More importantly they tell us a lot about the shape of the earth. It's not possible to accurately project the surface of a 3D object onto a 2D plane. There will inevitably be distortion.
Similarly it's not possible to accurately project a 2D image onto a 3D surface. Imagine wrapping a ball with a bit of paper - it crumples up and distorts the image.
But - it is absolutely possible to project a 2D surface onto another 2D surface without any distortion.
So, why can't FE proponents come up with an accurate map of what the flat earth looks like? Why has this never been achieved even accidentally in all the years humans have been mapping our planet?
How do you know it has not been done?
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All maps are already flat.
Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?
Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.
There doesn't seem to be any agreed map of the flat earth which fits with observations and can explain things like flight times.
Tom said that the distance from Paris to New York was unknown which is a pretty ludicrous statement given that airlines reliably get between the two places on a daily basis. They obviously know where they are in relation with each other and how far apart they are (the conversation then got into crazy arguments about whether planes know how fast they are flying).
Any map of the earth is a projection from a globe to a rectangle, this is why Greenland is all squished and doesn't look as big as it really is.
If the earth were flat you wouldn't need to do that, maps could show countries as they are.
So the question as to how after hundreds of years of cartography this hasn't been done remains.
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All maps are already flat.
Why do people continue to ask this non-sensical question?
Maps have a single purpose, in that they serve to help you navigate from point A to point B.
Actually maps have a number of purposes.
They show features of geography.
They show the extent of territory and political entities.
They allow you to navigate.
They therefore need to be accurate - otherwise, for example, planes would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.
More importantly they tell us a lot about the shape of the earth. It's not possible to accurately project the surface of a 3D object onto a 2D plane. There will inevitably be distortion.
Similarly it's not possible to accurately project a 2D image onto a 3D surface. Imagine wrapping a ball with a bit of paper - it crumples up and distorts the image.
But - it is absolutely possible to project a 2D surface onto another 2D surface without any distortion.
So, why can't FE proponents come up with an accurate map of what the flat earth looks like? Why has this never been achieved even accidentally in all the years humans have been mapping our planet?
How do you know it has not been done?
Has it? Can you show me the map? If it has why hasn't the map been publicised? The Flat Earth Society should be all over it, as it would provide definitive proof.
However, the FE wiki indicates there is no accurate map - it talks about a "generally accepted model" and provides a map which is "proposed, but certainly not definitive".
But if you can show me otherwise I would be very interested in seeing it.
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Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate? Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.
Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you have a map or not. Round Earth maps work perfectly, so I understand part of the reason there is no push to create an accurate FE map. My point, as it relates to the OP, is that there is seems to be a lack of initiative to actually put your money where your mouth is, and that is VERY telling.
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Has TFES done any fund raising for the purpose of creating a map? There are certainly a handful of celebrities that support FEH. Perhaps they would donate? Sadly, I won't be making any donations. We already have highly accurate maps that get us where we need to be on the globe. Don't see much point in recreating the wheel.
Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you have a map or not. Round Earth maps work perfectly, so I understand part of the reason there is no push to create an accurate FE map. My point, as it relates to the OP, is that there is seems to be a lack of initiative to actually put your money where your mouth is, and that is VERY telling.
And, more importantly, how 'they' would go about producing a map. It's about 'them' producing a more accurate map or shape model than we have now. 'We' note 'they' have not said why 'they' think WGS-84 is incorrect or, as 'they' would say, 'mistaken'.
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
I thought we agreed that latitude and longitude were real things? I linked you to Captain Cook's logbook and several 19th century manuals for how to measure them.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7524.msg131917#msg131917
It's clear that you can translate latitude and longitude to nautical miles based on a simple formula. You need to make your flat earth maps work with latitude and longitude, not ignore them.
This is all fact, not speculation.
Since you are here asking that certain research is done, which may cost a significant amount of money, then we expect you to put up or shut up.
Literally every aircraft that flies and every ship that sails exercises these maps. Literally every single pilot and ships captain has put up instead of shutting up.
The research has already been done in centuries past.
Cartography is not magic - you can go out and measure miles just by using the odometer in your car.
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Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.
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Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.
...and that tells us .... what, exactly?
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Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.
No, it's a logo.
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I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.
Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.
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I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.
Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.
This is a good question once you can get past the poor English. It would indeed be much, much easier to show a map of a 2D (or flat) earth compared with projecting a globe onto a 2D surface. I would imagine some FE folks will find a way to disagree with that statement no matter how difficult it will be -- but in the off chance one of you would actually like to give it some thought it would be nice to know why you think cartographers would go through all of this trouble.
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Have you not seen the UN flag? It's a flat earth map.
Good luck doing an actual 3D representation (not projection or perspective drawing) on a 2D flag.
The methods that have been proposed to us all assume that the spherical coordinates in RET are true.
So how do you explain the fact that there are methods for RET and not FET?
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The methods that have been proposed to us all assume that the spherical coordinates in RET are true.
So how do you explain the fact that there are methods for RET and not FET?
And again, to be clear: It would be objectively easier to create a map of a flat, two-dimensional space when compared to projecting a 3-dimensional globe on to a two-dimensional map.
Why are RETers so far ahead when it comes to cartography?
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I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.
Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.
For over 300 years (http://www.wired.com/2014/04/maps-california-island/) California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.
How can you appeal to the centuries-long authority of cartographers?
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Once again you're attempting to derail the thread. I don't think the idea that maps have got better and more accurate over time and older maps have more inaccuracies is controversial.
The point being made is all modern maps of the earth are projections because a globe has to be mapped onto a rectangle. There is no way of doing this without some distortion.
A true flat earth map wouldn't need to do this if the earth really were flat. So why do modern cartographers persist with these projections? Because the earth isn't flat.
And why can't you lot get your act together and produce a flat earth map which actually matches observations? Because it isn't possible.
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For over 300 years (http://www.wired.com/2014/04/maps-california-island/) California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.
Yes, for precisely the reason stated in the article you linked to. It had not been explored and mapped.
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I'm wandering:
If earth would be flat, it would be much easier to create an accurate map, as there would no projection needed, just "scaling".
A 2D world could easily be represented on a 2D chart.
Why should cartographers - since centuries - bother to apply complicated map projections and present us charts, that are not as accurate as these could be, but suffer from significant distortions (at large map scales).
... unless earth is not flat.
For over 300 years (http://www.wired.com/2014/04/maps-california-island/) California was depicted in maps as an island off of the coast of the United States.
How can you appeal to the centuries-long authority of cartographers?
"Around the year 1500 California made its appearance as a fictional island, blessed with an abundance of gold and populated by black, Amazon-like women, whose trained griffins dined on surplus males,"
Yes, folks sure knew a lot about California back in the day.
That aside, consider this: They clearly didn't know the exact configuration of the area, but they still knew how to find it.
That alone contributed infinitely more to cartography than FET has, considering FET has (by your own admission) contributed absolutely nothing to the mapping of the world.
Let's get back to the topic at hand, though: The question you haven't answered. It would be objectively easier to create a map of a flat world when compared to projecting a globe onto a 2d surface. Why, then, have cartographers always made it so difficult for themselves?
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The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.
The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.
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The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.
The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.
What new mapping project? Where is WGS-84 incorrect?
Please explain 'incorrect presentation'.
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The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.
The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.
Good to see you drop by, gotham.
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The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.
The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.
Good to see you drop by, gotham.
Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
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The Earth has not been fully and accurately mapped so it does seem reasonable to hold out judgement on what is considered the final map until the new mapping project has been completed.
The "globe" has been called out for displaying incorrect presentation so one should not assume it to be correct.
The maps we have, when placed upon the correct shape and not projected onto a flat surface, are very accurate. Accurate enough to get ships, planes, cars and trains wherever they need to go with a near-perfect success rate.
The problems arise when we have to put that map onto a 2d surface, something we have found many solutions to that all have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Have you ever flown anywhere? What maps were the pilots using?
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Yes, and pilots used flat maps.
Many have come to consider the globe a toy because it has failed to live up to its expectation.
Have you seen pilots taking along a globe to use as a navigation tool?
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Yes, and pilots used flat maps.
Many have come to consider the globe a toy because it has failed to live up to its expectation.
Have you seen pilots taking along a globe to use as a navigation tool?
Absolutely not -- you are correct that they do not bring a globe with them. The maps they use are projections of the globe onto a flat surface.
If there is a true flat earth map, you will need to present it. Your boy Tom himself has admitted one does not exist.
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Yes, and pilots used flat maps.
Many have come to consider the globe a toy because it has failed to live up to its expectation.
Have you seen pilots taking along a globe to use as a navigation tool?
Absolutely not -- you are correct that they do not bring a globe with them. The maps they use are projections of the globe onto a flat surface.
If there is a true flat earth map, you will need to present it. Your boy Tom himself has admitted one does not exist.
Alternatively or in addition, I would be very interested in where WSG-84 is incorrect and if you could explain what you mean by "incorrect presentation" I believe is what you called it.
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None of us can deny that Tom isn't correct about the lack of a final Earth shape map.
Contributing to such an important cause seems like such a logical solution.
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None of us can deny that Tom isn't correct about the lack of a final Earth shape map.
Contributing to such an important cause seems like such a logical solution.
How have we managed to effectively navigate this planet for centuries without one?
When boarding a plane, how confident are you in the pilot's ability to get you where you need to go?
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Yes, and pilots used flat maps.
Many have come to consider the globe a toy because it has failed to live up to its expectation.
Have you seen pilots taking along a globe to use as a navigation tool?
Yeah, we should use the FE ma....oh wait, there isn't one.
As far pilots and airlines, you should become a consultant. They are routinely flying these silly curved flight paths. You could save them millions in fuel costs!
(https://blog.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/North-Atlantic-Flights.jpg)
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None of us can deny that Tom isn't correct about the lack of a final Earth shape map.
Contributing to such an important cause seems like such a logical solution.
So there is a map? Sorry, your post makes very little sense, are you not incapable of not clarifying?
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Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
Such as put an accurate representation of its surface features to paper? That would certainly be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
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Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
Such as put an accurate representation of its surface features to paper? That would certainly be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
The problem here is that even the most die-hard FE believer knows it isn't necessary as what we have already clearly works.
The computers/tablets/phones they browse these forums on and do their "research" on aren't built locally, nor were their parts all sourced from the same place. Yet somehow everything has managed to get where it needs to go, reliably and efficiently, while using maps based off of a globe.
I wonder how that can be?
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Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
Such as put an accurate representation of its surface features to paper? That would certainly be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
The problem here is that even the most die-hard FE believer knows it isn't necessary as what we have already clearly works.
The computers/tablets/phones they browse these forums on and do their "research" on aren't built locally, nor were their parts all sourced from the same place. Yet somehow everything has managed to get where it needs to go, reliably and efficiently, while using maps based off of a globe.
I wonder how that can be?
By your own logic, ships and planes can get to places using "maps of a globe" despite the distances on those maps being warped.
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Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
Such as put an accurate representation of its surface features to paper? That would certainly be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
The problem here is that even the most die-hard FE believer knows it isn't necessary as what we have already clearly works.
The computers/tablets/phones they browse these forums on and do their "research" on aren't built locally, nor were their parts all sourced from the same place. Yet somehow everything has managed to get where it needs to go, reliably and efficiently, while using maps based off of a globe.
I wonder how that can be?
By your own logic, ships and planes can get to places using "maps of a globe" despite the distances on those maps being warped.
That's because they're traversing the globe those maps are projections of.
The simple fact that it is possible for a spherical model to perfectly match reality whereas it isn't for a two-dimensional map just proves that the earth we live on is a sphere and not a disk. Besides centuries of other evidence obviously.
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Thanks junker! Lots to do in the realm of proper Earth shape identification.
Such as put an accurate representation of its surface features to paper? That would certainly be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
The problem here is that even the most die-hard FE believer knows it isn't necessary as what we have already clearly works.
The computers/tablets/phones they browse these forums on and do their "research" on aren't built locally, nor were their parts all sourced from the same place. Yet somehow everything has managed to get where it needs to go, reliably and efficiently, while using maps based off of a globe.
I wonder how that can be?
By your own logic, ships and planes can get to places using "maps of a globe" despite the distances on those maps being warped.
Yes, they are warped -- but we know how and why they are warped, and there are different types for different applications.
But you're missing the point -- those ships arrive, and they arrive on-time.
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But you're missing the point -- those ships arrive, and they arrive on-time.
How do they know what "on time" is except to compare to previous journeys of that route?
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But you're missing the point -- those ships arrive, and they arrive on-time.
How do they know what "on time" is except to compare to previous journeys of that route?
Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?
Football fields are measured with wheeled devices, which are accurate for measuring distances.
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?
Football fields are measured with wheeled devices, which are accurate for measuring distances.
So what's the difference between a mile measured, a mile calculated assuming a flat Earth, and a mile calculated assuming a round Earth? Is there an appreciable difference in any of these factors? You are plainly claiming there is, or there wouldn't be a point of contention here. So? What is it, or how do you know there is one large enough to matter?
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?
Football fields are measured with wheeled devices, which are accurate for measuring distances.
So you are confident that we know distances across land, but not water?
Is the length of the transatlantic cable (2,226 miles) in question?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegraph_cable
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
So speed measured over earth is OK, but cannot be used to determine distances over seas? Which part of the WGS84 model do you disagree with?
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Tom has repeatedly claimed that planes and ships do not know their own speed. This is farcical, and disqualifies him as a contributor to any substantial discussion of the subject. Let him go ignored.
Before GPS, which by existing debunks flat Earth belief but let us avoid the rabbit hole, sailors navigated the old fashioned way (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation). Measurement with a sextant does not assume anything about the shape of the Earth, instead just using what can be observed. It's a zetetic's dream, really.
Only, taken together, the sum of knowledge of celestial navigation proves the Earth is a globe, so it's suddenly really not.
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ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
Are you serious?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm
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Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?
An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.
The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?
Football fields are measured with wheeled devices, which are accurate for measuring distances.
So you are confident that we know distances across land, but not water?
Is the length of the transatlantic cable (2,226 miles) in question?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegraph_cable
I feel silly self-quoting here, but I finished reading that wild 20-pager. The math in there is absolutely sound, but that won't matter much to an FE'r.
I want to reiterate my question regarding the transatlantic cable, however, and incorporate some of that discussion.
Tom, let's say you are right -- the cable company had no idea how much cable they would need. They continually brought out new spools (if the distance was longer than expected) or had plenty of cable left over if it were shorter.
After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid? From there, would't we have an accurate measurement across the Atlantic to base all subsequent measurements off of?
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After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?
Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?
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ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
Are you serious?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm
Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
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Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
Whatever you think about airspeed measurement, clocks are pretty reliable. They tell us it takes a similar time to travel between Sydney and Dubai/USA/Chile. And similar times back. And those times correspond exactly with their relative distances on a globe. I've raised this repeatedly during the past few weeks but not seen a glimmer of an answer. So instead of trying to blind us with pseudoscience, how on (a flat) earth can those times be so similar?
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Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
Whatever you think about airspeed measurement, clocks are pretty reliable. They tell us it takes a similar time to travel between Sydney and Dubai/USA/Chile. And similar times back. And those times correspond exactly with their relative distances on a globe. I've raised this repeatedly during the past few weeks but not seen a glimmer of an answer. So instead of trying to blind us with pseudoscience, how on (a flat) earth can those times be so similar?
Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since one way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.
Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.
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After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?
Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?
Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?
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After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?
Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?
Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?
Where did I say anything about conspiracy? You seem to think that the captain of a cable ship would have telephoned you to tell you how much line he had left. I say that he probably would not have done that.
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Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since on way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.
Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.
Ahhh - so you admit the "jet stream" must have a "direction" relative to the flight directions, and the effect of the "jet stream direction" relative to those locations also fully supports the comparable flight times on the round earth.
Not similar? It's hardly 24 hrs one way vs 30 mins the other. Sydney to LA circa 14hrs vs 15hrs. Sydney to Dubai circa 14.5 hrs vs 14hrs. Sydney to Chile 14hrs v 12.5. That's the one that would have the wildest distances in a flat earth. You are conceding that round earth works.
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Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since on way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.
Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.
Ahhh - so you admit the "jet stream" must have a "direction" relative to the flight directions, and the effect of the "jet stream direction" relative to those locations also fully supports the comparable flight times on the round earth.
Not similar? It's hardly 24 hrs one way vs 30 mins the other. Sydney to LA circa 14hrs vs 15hrs. Sydney to Dubai circa 14.5 hrs vs 14hrs. Sydney to Chile 14hrs v 12.5. That's the one that would have the wildest distances in a flat earth. You are conceding that round earth works.
That's nice. But no one created that Flat Earth visualization with any data. It is used for visualization purposes only. If you have anything tangible to contribute for us you should let us know.
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ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.
Are you serious?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm
Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
Unreliable is not true. There are also ground speed calculators. Further, radar can be used to determine an aircraft's speed. This has all been explained to you before. You choose to not to believe it not because you can't make this info work in FEH. Choosing to be ignorant is very sad.
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After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?
Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?
Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?
Where did I say anything about conspiracy? You seem to think that the captain of a cable ship would have telephoned you to tell you how much line he had left. I say that he probably would not have done that.
No need to have personally said a thing, but we have records and more on this. If they only used X cable, why would it not be in the reports? That implies a conspiracy of some kind to hind the actual length used.
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After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?
Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?
They don't have to tell me. They have to tell the people they work for, who have to tell the financers backing them.
In addition, the manufacturer of the cable needs to know how much to make and how much raw material to obtain. Then the shipping company needs to know how much freight they are shipping.
I'm sure i am missing several other steps/groups of people in this assessment.
Why would any group of those people feel a need to cover up the numbers?
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That's nice. But no one created that Flat Earth visualization with any data. It is used for visualization purposes only. If you have anything tangible to contribute for us you should let us know.
I get it - you're a funny guy. I just gave you a load of data and you deliberately ignore it. You have no interest in understanding the structure or shape of the world - as you said you do not care about Sydney or Dubai - and why should you? It would ruin your puckish facade of preaching the flat earth. What is a map other than a visualization of the real world? Your wind up baited me - nice one. Funny guy.
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No need to have personally said a thing, but we have records and more on this. If they only used X cable, why would it not be in the reports?
What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?
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What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?
As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.
With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid. Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67
(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.
Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?
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What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?
As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.
With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid. Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67
(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.
Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?
If the captain of the ship didn't hand you his reports, and you don't seem to have them available, then how do you guys already know what they say? ???
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What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?
As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.
With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid. Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67
(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.
Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?
If the captain of the ship didn't hand you his reports, and you don't seem to have them available, then how do you guys already know what they say? ???
Strange you show no interest in determining the size and the shape of the earth by not describing a method.
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Strange you show no interest in determining the size and the shape of the earth by not describing a method.
Strange how you guys seem to have esp with a long dead sea captain.
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Strange you show no interest in determining the size and the shape of the earth by not describing a method.
Strange how you guys seem to have esp with a long dead sea captain.
Please explain.
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"esp"? Hardly.
From the Journal of Education, Toronto, January 1858:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eF09AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=agamemnon+niagara+cable&source=bl&ots=FcSukxL5Lu&sig=cO_MSMDUtXX98OJ5-D7SvdILyeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjipO2cqfLZAhVG6mMKHZinCes4ChDoAQhCMAQ#v=onepage&q=agamemnon%20niagara%20cable&f=false
By noon on the 30th 265 nautical miles were laid between the two ships ; on the 31st, 540 ; on the 1st of August, 884 ; on the 2nd, 1256 ; on the 4th, 1854 ; on anchoring, at six in the morning, in Douglas Bay, 2,022.
See also The Laying of the Cable, John Mullaly, 1858
https://books.google.com/books?id=iCFDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA307&lpg=PA307&dq=the+agamemnon+has+arrived,+and+she+is+about+to+land+the+cable&source=bl&ots=BFPWf4ddNo&sig=EK4df4xg8WPa7sLMOB5XP-FPCpQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz3bbQqvLZAhVS82MKHXrFCDUQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=the%20agamemnon%20has%20arrived%2C%20and%20she%20is%20about%20to%20land%20the%20cable&f=false
What now, Tom?
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Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since one way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.
BTW, guess what is responsible for the formation of jet streams... ...That's right, the earth's rotation!
Today, with relatively accurate prediction and mapping of the jet stream, it is possible to flight plan based on jet stream prediction, but many more planes fly outside a jet stream than within one.
Actually flight planning around jet stream predictions can increase a commercial jet's ground speed by nearly 50% under ideal conditions, saving huge amounts of fuel over time. Conversely, an airline will go out of its way to avoid coming near the core of a jet stream on east to west flights.
But they are far from ubiquitous, and the core, occasionally with speeds over 250 MPH, is pretty small.
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Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
Everything you said was bullshit. I trained to be a pilot for sometime before moving on to other opportunities and I know, for a fact, that you're wrong. Airspeed devices are highly reliable and accurate. Pilots depend on them greatly to ensure the speed at takeoff and landing, and that they're not putting too much pressure on the plane during flight. They are not fluids moving within fluids. Do you even know how a pitot tube works?
And what are you even saying when you say they're not used in navigation? What do you mean the airspeed is mainly used for banking maneuvers and such? What bullshit is that? Tom, do you know how planes even work at all?
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Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.
Everything you said was bullshit. I trained to be a pilot for sometime before moving on to other opportunities and I know, for a fact, that you're wrong. Airspeed devices are highly reliable and accurate. Pilots depend on them greatly to ensure the speed at takeoff and landing, and that they're not putting too much pressure on the plane during flight. They are not fluids moving within fluids. Do you even know how a pitot tube works?
And what are you even saying when you say they're not used in navigation? What do you mean the airspeed is mainly used for banking maneuvers and such? What bullshit is that? Tom, do you know how planes even work at all?
I have a feeling it doesn't matter much to him. Similar to how he probably feels about countries like Argentina or Australia -- out of sight, out of "empirical" mind.
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There is a flat earth map
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
Pity it is not a map of our earth.
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
I don't think you want to go this route, assuming you believe the earth is flat. There are dozens of irreconcilable problems with that map, which is why most flat earthers would rather say that there isn't a map.
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
That is simply an azimuthal projection of the globe, the equidistant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection) polar one to be exact.
Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_Nations#Design
All 2-dimensional maps are (have to be) projections of a globe, because earth is a spheroid.
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
I don't think you want to go this route, assuming you believe the earth is flat. There are dozens of irreconcilable problems with that map, which is why most flat earthers would rather say that there isn't a map.
He's right, Gleasons flat earth map pretty much sums it all up. It's certainly the most accurate one we have.
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Gleasons flat earth map from 1892. But here is something very strange. If you look at the flat earth map then look at the UN emblem.....you will notice there sits the flat earth map.....in plain site. Right on their emblem
I don't think you want to go this route, assuming you believe the earth is flat. There are dozens of irreconcilable problems with that map, which is why most flat earthers would rather say that there isn't a map.
He's right, Gleasons flat earth map pretty much sums it all up. It's certainly the most accurate one we have.
I am talking about the UN emblem in particular. If that is the same as Gleason's map there are many things wrong with it.
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Okay. The UN map is just an emblem, I don't look at it as a map.
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"esp"? Hardly.
From the Journal of Education, Toronto, January 1858:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eF09AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=agamemnon+niagara+cable&source=bl&ots=FcSukxL5Lu&sig=cO_MSMDUtXX98OJ5-D7SvdILyeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjipO2cqfLZAhVG6mMKHZinCes4ChDoAQhCMAQ#v=onepage&q=agamemnon%20niagara%20cable&f=false
By noon on the 30th 265 nautical miles were laid between the two ships ; on the 31st, 540 ; on the 1st of August, 884 ; on the 2nd, 1256 ; on the 4th, 1854 ; on anchoring, at six in the morning, in Douglas Bay, 2,022.
See also The Laying of the Cable, John Mullaly, 1858
https://books.google.com/books?id=iCFDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA307&lpg=PA307&dq=the+agamemnon+has+arrived,+and+she+is+about+to+land+the+cable&source=bl&ots=BFPWf4ddNo&sig=EK4df4xg8WPa7sLMOB5XP-FPCpQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz3bbQqvLZAhVS82MKHXrFCDUQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=the%20agamemnon%20has%20arrived%2C%20and%20she%20is%20about%20to%20land%20the%20cable&f=false
What now, Tom?
So can we safely assume we the distances across land and sea now? I'm wondering why no one has responded to this yet.
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There seems to be discrepancy about how much cable was laid. The second link says there was a 16% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/brPaQYz.png)
Another segment showed a 15% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/GMhmFdX.png)
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There seems to be discrepancy about how much cable was laid. The second link says there was a 16% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/brPaQYz.png)
Another segment showed a 15% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/GMhmFdX.png)
I think you're misinterpreting that. They knew how much cable they paid out (949 miles) but that turned out to be a 15% increase over what they expected. It's not a 15% discrepancy between one report and another.
That additional 15% could be for any number of reasons. Features on the sea floor, mistakes that needed to be corrected, etc.
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That additional 15% could be for any number of reasons.
Including a map mistake.
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That additional 15% could be for any number of reasons.
Including a map mistake.
Right. Which would be corrected by the amount of cable actually laid.
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I'm confused, did they need 815 or 882 miles of cable? I thought someone earlier stated it was 2,226 miles.
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I'm confused, did they need 815 or 882 miles of cable? I thought someone earlier stated it was 2,226 miles.
These seem to be small excerpts regarding a particular span of time or one single ship, not the entirety of the project.
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I'm confused, did they need 815 or 882 miles of cable? I thought someone earlier stated it was 2,226 miles.
These seem to be small excerpts regarding a particular span of time or one single ship, not the entirety of the project.
Ah that makes sense.
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There seems to be discrepancy about how much cable was laid. The second link says there was a 16% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/brPaQYz.png)
Another segment showed a 15% discrepancy:
(https://i.imgur.com/GMhmFdX.png)
That's fine. Remember that the amount of cable laid is an upper bound. If you have a 100 foot garden hose, and you run it from a hose bib to a flower garden 87 feet away, it's no problem. The extra hose is just curved on the ground or coiled up or something.
Now, even if the 15% is a map error, it gives you an upper bound - you can eliminate all flat Earth maps that don't agree with that distance. You can also use it as an upper bound on how far airplanes fly over that route, etc.
See, you've just done a whole bunch of flat Earth cartography. Wasn't that fun? And it didn't take any funding!
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In which case your answer begs the question, why don't you propose an alternative?
For example, why not use standard surveying techniques and trigonometry to map out areas?
Standard surveying techniques use the latitude and longitude system.
Longitudes aren't based on Globe or Flat model.
They are based on times of solar noon and it doesn't depend on model.
Latitudes are based on distances along those longitudes.
Obviously, for any place you select, longitude and latitude will be the same regardless of Flat or Globe model.
(Additionally, latitudes can be measured by angular elevation of Sun at solar noon for Equainox.
For other days there are tables of sun's declination, tested in reality for centuries.
But this part points to Globe so you can ignore it.)