The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: RightRoundBabyRightRound on December 27, 2017, 11:14:50 PM
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Hi, I'm sure this has been brought up before, but how can the flat earth model explain the relatively similar flight times in northern and southern hemispheres. From the popular image of a flat earth, it seems that a flight from South America to Australia/NZ would take a very long time, but flights from Auckland to Santiago only take around 12 hours. This can be compared to a flight from Shanghai to LA, which also only takes around 12 hours. If the earth were flat, wouldn't the northern LA--->Shanghai flight be much shorter than Santiago----> Auckland?
Some data:
Auckland to Santiago= 11 hours, 5 minutes, 6,002 miles (Latam Airlines, Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner)
Santiago: 33.4489° S, 70.6693° W
Auckland: 36.8485° S, 174.7633° E
difference: 116 degrees
Shanghai to LA: 11 hours, 50 minutes, 6,505 miles (American Airlines, Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner)
LA: 33.9416° N, 118.4085° W
Shanghai: 31.2304° N, 121.4737° E
difference: 121 degrees
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I would think that the first step would be to prove that the round earth model is wrong. This will help you develop a viable FE theory to accomplish the same task.
All of the flat maps for the Round Earth model are distorted and cannot be trusted anywhere beyond a city map. Get some string and stretch it between your first two cities on their proposed Globe. The string will automatically follow what they call a "Great Circle Route." On an FE Map, It is easy to see that a flight from Tokyo to Los Angeles never goes across the center of the ocean but goes near Alaska. Their RE Great Circle Route was created to show a similar flight path. Put knots in the string for each city.
Then you can take that same string and put the two knots over the other two cities in the southern hemisphere that have the same flight time (and speed). The knots cannot line up on their RE if it is fake. You can get a new string and do the same for your pair of cities on a FE map.
Let me know if this helped. Tell us what you find out.
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I agree with you that flat projections of the round earth are understandably distorted (take the size of Greenland for example), but the strings do line up when compared on a round globe because these flights travel roughly along the same latitudes in the north and south (~33 degrees N and S). The strings do not line up, however, on any flat earth map that I have come across. Please let me know if you can find a flat earth map that depicts Shanghai/LA and Santiago de Chile/Auckland to be of similar disntances or if you can explain the similar flight times.
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I don't know of a better FE map than the one in your OP.
If you can find a fake globe, measure the distances over/under the south part of their globe. See how that lines up with your pair of cities on the north part of the ball.
Do the same with your FE model. The errors should become immediately apparent.
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If we accept the flat earth scenario, anyone who has flown east to west has seen how the sun pretty much goes at the same speed as the plane (you leave at noon and arrive around noon even though you flew for 6 hours). So the sun is moving around the earth at speeds just a little faster than commercial aircraft. The smaller part of the earth in the northern hemisphere is in the sun for half the day and dark for half the day. The moon moves a little slower, but it can be in the sky in the north for pretty much half the night during a full moon.
If you draw a map that connects all these cities so that the flight times somehow work out, there is the bigger problem that the sun and moon have to cover them for half the time as well. If the southern hemisphere is a lot bigger than the northern hemisphere and this would be suggested if the north pole is a dot and the south pole is actually a huge circumferential wall of ice, the sun moving the speed of a jet has to make it all around the disk so that today the sun can rise in Buenos Aires at 5:41 am and set at 8:08 pm. And it also has to rise in Sydney Australia at 5:44 am and set at 8:08 pm and rise in Cape Town at 5:35 am and set at 7:59 pm. And someone in Buenas Aires that sees the sunrise and phones the person in Sydney and asks what time it is there will hear that it is sunset there. And if they do a conference call to include the woman at Collins research station in Antarctica, she will tell them the sun has been visible all day. That is some flight path for the sun.
And it goes back to another thread where it was mentioned that if you live in one country you might forget there are other countries. I doubt anyone who lives in the southern hemisphere would accept that the north pole is the center of the universe.
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Another suggestion is to use all foreign flights.
All the Gate times in the US are controlled by the FAA, which is controlled by NASA. Same goes for anything in Europe because of the European Space Agency.
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Another suggestion is to use all foreign flights.
All the Gate times in the US are controlled by the FAA, which is controlled by NASA. Same goes for anything in Europe because of the European Space Agency.
How are management of gate times related to flight durations? Proof about ESA please.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
Please explain. Flight times match distances and GPS receivers confirm speed.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
Please explain. Flight times match distances and GPS receivers confirm speed.
The date is being harvested from scheduled flight times, correct? That date is submitted and approved by the Government.
In an FE universe, the GPS data is also faked to provide a round earth conspiracy.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
Please explain. Flight times match distances and GPS receivers confirm speed.
The date is being harvested from scheduled flight times, correct? That date is submitted and approved by the Government.
In an FE universe, the GPS data is also faked to provide a round earth conspiracy.
Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
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I answered this a number of times on other threads. Drive somewhere. Look at the odometer and fly back. Look at your watch a lot. Drive somewhere close and walk back counting the steps. Look at a rural map of farms. Farmers now use GPS to plow their fields automatically (self driven tractors). They would raise a stink if someone was ripping them off. Each farmer knows how much land they have. I once organized a beer shipment for the dorm in college. 600 cases but no one person got more than 10 cases. 600 cases is 7200 bottles but if I helped myself to one, the person that bought that one case would notice. That is just like scheduling flights, or using GPS to cultivate your wheat or golfers using GPS to measure the distance to the cup. If it works for a person on one thing, it works overall because it is all interconnected and you cannot screw one guy at the end of the line. The sun and the moon and the zodiac stars have to do an intricate dance where they fly between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, with the zodiac stars zipping between them daily, the moon monthly and the sun yearly. The sun has to be the farthest up in the sky at noon for everyone regardless how far south or how far north they are.
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Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
The burden of proof is on you. Show evidence that any one of your statements is true.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
The burden of proof is on you. Show evidence that any one of your statements is true.
I provided two contradictory options. One of them is not true.
GPS receives operate on radio signals. There must be transmitted somewhere. Either terrestrial or from space. Either 2D earth or 3D earth.
I would be interested in any additional options that you have.
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Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
“Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round...” You can easily see the details of the ISS with a backyard telescope.
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Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
Well this is very easy. GPS works anywhere on Earth. Hiking in the middle of nowhere in Alaska? No radio stations, but GPS works. Same for the Outback in Australia. Siberia? yep, GPS (or GLONASS) has got you covered. There is a very specific reason I listed all of those different countries. What you are proposing is that the whole world is in on GPS faking. Why didn't Iraq just turn off their GPS transmitters when we were dropping bombs on their heads with pinpoint accuracy? You can't possibly believe that all the nations of the world have agreed to trick their people into thinking the Earth is flat by broadcasting GPS signals. What do they have to gain??? This is just dumb.
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If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
What’s so special about the cockpit? Why can passengers not trust flight times? I myself have taken two trips from Portland to Vienna, the flight times matched the published times.
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If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
What’s so special about the cockpit? Why can passengers not trust flight times? I myself have taken two trips from Portland to Vienna, the flight times matched the published times.
How fast is the aircraft flying through the air? What is the ground speed? Are they flying point to point or do they have to fly around foreign airspace or restricted military airspace? Did they reduce speed drastically or put into a holding pattern.
Using the takeoff and landing times will be much better than departure and arrival times, but we still have all the above unknowns.
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If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
What’s so special about the cockpit? Why can passengers not trust flight times? I myself have taken two trips from Portland to Vienna, the flight times matched the published times.
How fast is the aircraft flying through the air? What is the ground speed? Are they flying point to point or do they have to fly around foreign airspace or restricted military airspace? Did they reduce speed drastically or put into a holding pattern.
Using the takeoff and landing times will be much better than departure and arrival times, but we still have all the above unknowns.
Honest question for you and other FEers: what are your opinions/thoughts on flight tracking apps like Flight Aware?
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I often look out the window of the aircraft to match the stuff on the ground to where we are supposed to be. Holding patterns to allow for fake times would be pretty hard to pull off. People fueling the planes would have to remember when the flights are over land that people on the ground can see the plane and are hard to fake compared to flights over water where they can play games. People screw up with real data let alone hoping they can pull off a conspiracy with millions of people in the know (the guy fueling the plane, the guy working the board, my friend in air traffic control, the search and rescue people, etc. etc.) eventually some pilot would forget and arrive six hours earlier than possible on a round earth. And they used to pull off this conspiracy back in the pre computer days when all this had to be tracked by hand in a real set of records and the conspiracy records.
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Hmmm, that's odd. I geocache and use GPS to find the location of caches. It works amazingly well. Soooooo....yeah.
Do satellites exist? If yes, then the earth is round and the GPS system identifies the location of your geocache on the globe.
If satellites don't exist and the earth is flat, then radio stations broadcast a signal that makes the flat earth appear to be a globe while at the same time providing a coordinate that does work to locate your geocache on a flat earth.
A similar manipulation would have to be accomplished with flight times and distances. Even GPS distances can be faked to match the Globe overlay to the flat earth. One way or the other is false.
We know satellites exist and are used by millions for navigation, timing and communication.
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Honest question for you and other FEers: what are your opinions/thoughts on flight tracking apps like Flight Aware?
That would depend on whether the flight date is computer compiled data or computer generated data. Their display is based on a Round Earth Model.
The real question about this thread should be the validity of direct observations or the practice of using intermediate data that only implies the geometry in question. A second or third generation of indirect observations is made when gate times are used to calculate aircraft speed and consistency between different origins and destinations.
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Try and chart this flight on a Flat Earth model.
LAN Airlines 804
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA to SANTIAGO, CHILE
12h 12m total flight time
7,092 Miles.
Boeing 787-9 (twin-jet) (B789)
(https://i.imgflip.com/21u5cs.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/21u5cs)
Yes, this data is from flightaware.com
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Try and chart this flight on a Flat Earth model.
LAN Airlines 804
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA to SANTIAGO, CHILE
12h 12m total flight time
7,092 Miles.
Boeing 787-9 (twin-jet) (B789)
(https://i.imgflip.com/21u5cs.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/21u5cs)
Yes, this data is from flightaware.com
I agree that most on this site are less wary of direct observations, so I’ll share some of mine. I would appreciate it if any one has had any contradictory experiences.
I’ve been on countless flights, both domestic and international, and I am somewhat of a nervous flyer so most changes in direction/speed don’t escape my notice.
From my experience, gate-to-gate times are usually around 30 minutes longer than wheels-up to wheels-down, so I figure they add on 15 Minutes of taxiing at each airport (although this is not always the case on very short flights). I always monitor the flight projections while on the flight itself, mostly so I don’t miss out on landmarks (big cities, coastlines, the Grand Canyon, etc.) and so I know how much more time I have to pass. I’ve never had a flight that lasted drastically longer or shorter than the projected flight time, and I’ve never noticed the plane to be in any location other than what the flight status map shows me, although this is understandably more difficult when flying over oceans.
In terms of monitoring flight aware, I have a few close friends that, whenever they fly, text me when they’re about to takeoff (not just leave the gate) and as soon as they land, and these times always match up with what flight aware tells me, on both domestic and international flights. From these experiences, I have grown to trust flight aware and the data it puts out.
Now in terms of charting the Melbourne to Santiago flight on a flat map, I drew a markup (on my phone so not perfect) on an existing flat earth projection. Red is the route over water that these flights presumably take, yellow is a possible quicker route on a flat model, and blue is the flight from California to Shanghai, which would be much shorter than either Australian flight on this projection, and I’m not sure how the length of this flight would be unnoticeabley lengthened to match the projected flight time on a round earth and the flight times from Chile to Australia.
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The map was scaled for a 7310-mile flight from Hong Kong to Las Angeles.
All other distances are measured as indicated and are wrong.
In addition, the flight paths are wrong. On MEL-SCL, the aircraft departs Melbourne and flies Southeasterly over the ocean. The flight path does not fly over Texas. Upon arrival, the Boeing 787-9 approaches Santiago from the Southwest.
(https://i.imgflip.com/21udyy.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/21udyy)
The farther south the flight path, the more error is introduced.
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The map was scaled for a 7310-mile flight from Hong Kong to Las Angeles.
All other distances are measured as indicated and are wrong.
In addition, the flight paths are wrong. On MEL-SCL, the aircraft departs Melbourne and flies Southeasterly over the ocean. The flight path does not fly over Texas. Upon arrival, the Boeing 787-9 approaches Santiago from the Southwest.
(https://i.imgflip.com/21udyy.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/21udyy)
The farther south the flight path, the more error is introduced.
Yes, exactly, similar flight times and distances do not make any sort of sense on any existing flat map.
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um. . . the earth must be round.
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um. . . the earth must be round.
I agree
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Your green route is good as it shows the even longer flight path that would have to be taken to fool the passengers with a departure over water, not land.
There was an incredible amount of data listed on FlightAware.com. They list the distances, so I don't see any reason to try and calculate it from gate time and flight speeds -- but expected taxing times are also listed.
I think that all my aircraft are different, and I'm sure that will be criticised. Does not matter anyway - I used the posted/flown distances.
I knew we would eventually get around to the truth.
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
could you not turn a on a timer on your phone as you get on? I have previously done this/ checked the actual hours multiple times on transatlantic flights between north america and europe and have never found a disparity!
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They need to make the flight times look like the would on a round earth. They just list the scheduled arrival time that is needed to make the time look legitimate.
If more time is needed, they just post delayed flight at the arriving airport. The airlines are also more than happy to fly slower than normal cruise speed to save fuel.
The posted flight times will only work on a globe if the earth really was a globe or all the posted times were manipulated by NASA to make the earth seem like a globe.
If you are not in the cockpit, you can not trust the flight times.
could you not turn a on a timer on your phone as you get on? I have previously done this/ checked the actual hours multiple times on transatlantic flights between north america and europe and have never found a disparity!
Of course, you could. There are simply too many witnesses. The only way to make it work is to make it round.
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That is just a projection of a globe for illustration purposes. Why are you arguing against a map no one put work into creating?
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That is just a projection of a globe for illustration purposes. Why are you arguing against a map no one put work into creating?
It is the same one that the UN uses.
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That is just a projection of a globe for illustration purposes. Why are you arguing against a map no one put work into creating?
This map took incredibly large number of hours to create. Many people in every country know the shape of their country, their neighbouring countries, and when it is their turn to have the sun as high in the sky as it is going to be at noon. People in every country phone people in every other country. If they went outside and the sun was not at the top at noon, someone would spill the beans. So countries know where they are in relation to every other country. This map must represent the relationship to every other country. And it is accurate in terms of relational longitude. In order for the sun to provide daylight for 24 hours in the summer for penguins in Antarctica (and the workers at the stations there) and for the sun to be able to be above everyone at the right time, the lines of longitude must come to a point at the south pole as well as the north. The distances between roads, railroad lines, telephone lines and anything else in Australia, South Africa and southern Brazil that run north and south get narrower the farther south one gets. Not wider. The southern hemisphere seasons and lengths of day are a mirror of the north. The south does not get long nights and short days because the sun has a lot farther to travel around.
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That is just a projection of a globe for illustration purposes. Why are you arguing against a map no one put work into creating?
Pete, who most would consider the authority on FE here, acknowledged this map.
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That is just a projection of a globe for illustration purposes. Why are you arguing against a map no one put work into creating?
Pete, who most would consider the authority on FE here, acknowledged this map.
Plus, it’s the map featuted in the logo of the Society, that lends it some claim to being the map the Society believes in.