The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: mtnman on September 06, 2017, 04:22:47 PM
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
timeanddate.com
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timeanddate.com
I've been to that site, which is based on RE math. I am looking for an equivalent from the FE community based on the math behind their models.
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timeanddate.com
I've been to that site, which is based on RE math. I am looking for an equivalent from the FE community based on the math behind their models.
Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.
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Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.
I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.
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Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.
I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.
We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.
=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3
Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.
In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.
During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.
=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3
Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.
In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.
During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.
=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3
Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.
In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.
During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.
Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.
During the equinox:
1) The sun will follow a path directly over the equator.
2) Day length at all latitudes is 12 hours.
3) Sunrise and sunset for the round Earth model will be due East and due West at all latitudes.
Assume you are 0° N, 0° W – South of Ghana, Africa. (Map below)
At solar noon the sun is directly overhead.
In 6 hours (sunset) the sun will travel to 0° N, 90° W (1/4 the circumference of the equator).
The deviation (N) of the sun from due West at sunset can be calculated by:
Deviation (N) from due West = arctan (D1/D2)
D1= distance from observer to North Pole = 10,000 km
D2 = distance from sunset position (equator) to North Pole = 10,000 km
Arctan (10,000/10,000) = 0.785 radians
= 0.785*57.3
= 45°
D1 was modified to accommodate any latitude.
D1 = (90 - Latitude)*111.1 km
Latitude = latitude of observer (for South latitude used negative value).
111.1 = km/degree latitude (10,000 km / 90°)
D2 = 10,000 km
Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
= Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3
The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
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I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.
We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.
I didn't make any statement about the authors or ownership of the YouTube video's where I made comments.
The Twitter account I was referring to is @FlatEarthOrg which is listed as belonging to Flat Earth Society (with Twitter's verification indicated). Is that not the same organization that operates this web site and forum?
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I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.
We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.
I didn't make any statement about the authors or ownership of the YouTube video's where I made comments.
The Twitter account I was referring to is @FlatEarthOrg which is listed as belonging to Flat Earth Society (with Twitter's verification indicated). Is that not the same organization that operates this web site and forum?
I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here (https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/) for reference.
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I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here (https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/) for reference.
There is a difference between Flat Earth Society (http://www.tfes.org/), and THE Flat Earth Society (https://theflatearthsociety.org)???
Is this for real?
The Twitter home for @FlatEarthOrg that I referred to points to tfes.org (this site) as their homepage and also links to faq.tfes.org. So I believe am I addressing the correct site.
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I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here (https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/) for reference.
No one who runs the other forum has anything to do with running this one (except Pongo being a mod on both). Us old timers came from there back in late 2013. Our admin Parsifal previously ran this as a place to go to when the other site went down (happened fairly often, still does). After some particular incompetence, a group of us just moved over here for good. Also, their social media accounts are absolutely unrelated to ours.
There is a difference between Flat Earth Society (http://www.tfes.org/), and THE Flat Earth Society (https://theflatearthsociety.org)???
Is this for real?
The Twitter home for @FlatEarthOrg that I referred to points to tfes.org (this site) as their homepage and also links to faq.tfes.org. So I believe am I addressing the correct site.
Yes, it is for real.
You have the correct Twitter, but we still don't have a YouTube channel. Our very own Pete Svarrior graciously dedicates his time to running our social media.
EDIT: Link to a brief history - https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6087.msg116584#msg116584
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I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.
The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.
=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3
Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.
In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.
During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.
Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.
During the equinox:
1) The sun will follow a path directly over the equator.
2) Day length at all latitudes is 12 hours.
3) Sunrise and sunset for the round Earth model will be due East and due West at all latitudes.
Assume you are 0° N, 0° W – South of Ghana, Africa. (Map below)
At solar noon the sun is directly overhead.
In 6 hours (sunset) the sun will travel to 0° N, 90° W (1/4 the circumference of the equator).
The deviation (N) of the sun from due West at sunset can be calculated by:
Deviation (N) from due West = arctan (D1/D2)
D1= distance from observer to North Pole = 10,000 km
D2 = distance from sunset position (equator) to North Pole = 10,000 km
Arctan (10,000/10,000) = 0.785 radians
= 0.785*57.3
= 45°
D1 was modified to accommodate any latitude.
D1 = (90 - Latitude)*111.1 km
Latitude = latitude of observer (for South latitude used negative value).
111.1 = km/degree latitude (10,000 km / 90°)
D2 = 10,000 km
Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
= Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3
The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
Are your results consistent with actual observations and those in timeanddate.com?
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Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.
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Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
= Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3
The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.
What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?
Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?
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Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.
...
Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
= Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3
The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.
What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?
Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?
57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi
My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.
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If you are using a magnetic compass you need to factor in the declination between magnetic North and true North. It can be as much as 20° East or West in the US.
Here is a quick explanation:
https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/compass-declination.html
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Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.
What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?
Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?
57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi
My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.
I did get the same math result (34 degrees rounded) I just didn't describe it well. I had 56 being the compass heading for sun rise (34 degrees from due east, 90-34=56) then I changed to talking about sun set. Sorry for the confusing result.
If the hurricane clears out soon enough I will be able to visit the ocean next week and I'll take a compass with me to check this. And I will adjust for the magnetic variance. Thanks.
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Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.
What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?
Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?
57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi
My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.
I did get the same math result (34 degrees rounded) I just didn't describe it well. I had 56 being the compass heading for sun rise (34 degrees from due east, 90-34=56) then I changed to talking about sun set. Sorry for the confusing result.
If the hurricane clears out soon enough I will be able to visit the ocean next week and I'll take a compass with me to check this. And I will adjust for the magnetic variance. Thanks.
The deviation North for both the sunset and sunrise is the same. The angles are the same, just mirror image of each other. In your case, both are 34° (N) of due East and due West.
The autumnal equinox is September 22. Next week will be a little early but shouldn't make much difference. Stay safe and good luck with your measurements.
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The deviation North for both the sunset and sunrise is the same. The angles are the same, just mirror image of each other. In your case, both are 34° (N) of due East and due West.
The autumnal equinox is September 22. Next week will be a little early but shouldn't make much difference. Stay safe and good luck with your measurements.
Correct, if I can make it there, will be a few days ahead of the equinox. But still fairly close, thanks.
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57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi
My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.
I made the trip to the ocean at Panama City Beach on the FL panhandle. I looked up the predicted sunset time and direction from timeanddate.com (RE math) and took the prediction from the FE formula listed in the above thread.
Two caveats.
1: The FE formula was specific to the seasonal equinox dates, so it only works two days a year. I was not there on the fall equinox, although I was only off by a few days. The photos posted below were taken at sunset on September 12, 2017, ten days before the equinox. So I would expect that the result might shift by a few degrees.
2: I intended to take the magnetic declination into account. But once I looked it up, I found that it was only 3 degrees. Since I was working with a handheld compass, that small of a declination was not really a factor.
For that date and location, RE math (via timeanddate.com) predicted a sunset at 6:51pm CDT at a compass heading of 275 degrees.
FE math (see caveat above) predicted a sunset at compass heading of 326 degrees. This is towards the northwest which is about what I would expect looking at the FE animations.
My observation was that the sunset happened precisely at the time and direction according to RE math (via timeanddate.com). I found it difficult to have proper exposure and focus on the sunset and compass in the same frame. So in the pictures below you can two shots. In one you can see the sunset and a post on the beach, a volleyball net post I think. The post roughly points towards the sunset. in the second picture you can see my compass resting on the balcony pointing towards magnetic north. If you zoom in on the compass, you can see the sunset is at 275 degrees. The post in both pictures can used to judge the alignment.
The direction predicted by FE math (326 degrees) can not be seen in the picture. In order to view the sky at that angle I had to go through the condo and stand on the front side of the building.
Clearly, the FE equation doesn't remotely match observations made directly by the human eye. And the RE math does.
I have seen some posts by Tom Bishop asking for proof that timeanddate.com use a round Earth model. As if he assumes they must have some disclaimer or something indicating what model of the Earth they believe in. The expectation to find an answer to that question on their website is absurd. However, it is plain by browsing some of their site and back issues of their newsletters that they believe the Earth to be round and to be found orbiting the sun.
How does anyone take the flat Earth model seriously when it can't predict basic things we can see with our own eyes?
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My observation was that the sunset happened precisely at the time and direction according to RE math (via timeanddate.com). I found it difficult to have proper exposure and focus on the sunset and compass in the same frame. So in the pictures below you can two shots. In one you can see the sunset and a post on the beach, a volleyball net post I think. The post roughly points towards the sunset. in the second picture you can see my compass resting on the balcony pointing towards magnetic north. If you zoom in on the compass, you can see the sunset is at 275 degrees. The post in both pictures can used to judge the alignment.
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Trying a second post to get the second photo posted.
My intent was to post the full resolution photos so that people could read the compass, but the site won't allow me to upload the full size image. I am also attaching a screen snip of the zoomed view. Can't attach it either. Will try another post.
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Screen shot of zoomed view.
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Screen shot of zoomed view.
Um...you do know that compasses are screwed up by having large pieces of metal nearby?
Your compass appears to be lashed firmly to a large metal fence rail.
Sorry - your information is useless.
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Um...you do know that compasses are screwed up by having large pieces of metal nearby?
Your compass appears to be lashed firmly to a large metal fence rail.
Sorry - your information is useless.
Yes I understand that. The surface of the rail was plastic, don't know if there was metal underneath, probably. But I did view the compass north heading while is was on the rail and several feet away to see if there was a difference and there was not. And yes I lashed it so it wouldn't fall off onto someone below.
I didn't take any pictures from the railing on the front of the building with the compass pointing in the FE predicted direction where there was not a sunset. When I placed the compass on that railing it did vastly change the compass heading. I did not see that behavior on the rail in the pictures.
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Um...you do know that compasses are screwed up by having large pieces of metal nearby?
Your compass appears to be lashed firmly to a large metal fence rail.
Sorry - your information is useless.
Yes I understand that. The surface of the rail was plastic, don't know if there was metal underneath, probably. But I did view the compass north heading while is was on the rail and several feet away to see if there was a difference and there was not. And yes I lashed it so it wouldn't fall off onto someone below.
I didn't take any pictures from the railing on the front of the building with the compass pointing in the FE predicted direction where there was not a sunset. When I placed the compass on that railing it did vastly change the compass heading. I did not see that behavior on the rail in the pictures.
Nobody makes handrails from plastic...that would hardly meet safety standards. There might be a thin coating of plastic OVER the metal railings...but that's not going to prevent the metal from distorting the compass readings. Even if it wasn't ON the railing, we have no idea whether you were standing close enough to it for it to move the compass needle.
But we only have your word for all of those things. Point is, your photographic evidence is clearly invalid. Case closed.
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Nobody makes handrails from plastic...that would hardly meet safety standards. There might be a thin coating of plastic OVER the metal railings...but that's not going to prevent the metal from distorting the compass readings. Even if it wasn't ON the railing, we have no idea whether you were standing close enough to it for it to move the compass needle.
But we only have your word for all of those things. Point is, your photographic evidence is clearly invalid. Case closed.
A simple experiment. RE math/timeanddate.com pointed to a sunset at 275 degrees. On the rail, the compass showed 275. Off the rail, the compass showed 275.
The FE formula presented to me here predicted a sunset 51 degrees away from that. But sure, I set my compass on the wrong thing, cause maybe there was metal there. That's what's wrong. If that's what you want to focus on, go ahead. I really don't care. Maybe next year I'll wade out into the ocean with my compass.
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Nobody makes handrails from plastic...that would hardly meet safety standards. There might be a thin coating of plastic OVER the metal railings...but that's not going to prevent the metal from distorting the compass readings. Even if it wasn't ON the railing, we have no idea whether you were standing close enough to it for it to move the compass needle.
But we only have your word for all of those things. Point is, your photographic evidence is clearly invalid. Case closed.
A simple experiment. RE math/timeanddate.com pointed to a sunset at 275 degrees. On the rail, the compass showed 275. Off the rail, the compass showed 275.
The FE formula presented to me here predicted a sunset 51 degrees away from that. But sure, I set my compass on the wrong thing, cause maybe there was metal there. That's what's wrong. If that's what you want to focus on, go ahead. I really don't care. Maybe next year I'll wade out into the ocean with my compass.
Look - don't get me wrong - I'm an avid RE'er - I *know* what results you should get.
All I'm saying is that if your evidence is not impeccable - the local wolves will tear it to shreds.
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Look - don't get me wrong - I'm an avid RE'er - I *know* what results you should get.
All I'm saying is that if your evidence is not impeccable - the local wolves will tear it to shreds.
I never said it was the pinnacle of scientific testing. Just a very simple experiment that anyone can reproduce on their own. And I hope some people thinking about it will just do the same test themselves.
Can't blame NASA conspiracies for the result of where the sun sets.
I also took some pictures of a high rise that was 12-13 miles down the beach. Took them from the deck just above the beach and from my balcony on the 11th floor. Just using a basic zoom lens. In one picture you can see the line of the beach, in the other you can't. Looks curved to me. But why bother posting them, someone will just crap on them because I don't have the exact height of the 11th floor of the building or something.
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Look - don't get me wrong - I'm an avid RE'er - I *know* what results you should get.
All I'm saying is that if your evidence is not impeccable - the local wolves will tear it to shreds.
I never said it was the pinnacle of scientific testing. Just a very simple experiment that anyone can reproduce on their own. And I hope some people thinking about it will just do the same test themselves.
Can't blame NASA conspiracies for the result of where the sun sets.
I also took some pictures of a high rise that was 12-13 miles down the beach. Took them from the deck just above the beach and from my balcony on the 11th floor. Just using a basic zoom lens. In one picture you can see the line of the beach, in the other you can't. Looks curved to me. But why bother posting them, someone will just crap on them because I don't have the exact height of the 11th floor of the building or something.
Yes - view-over-the-horizon arguments are hard to pin down - both sides do the experiment, each side comes up with a different result.