The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Nirmala on April 13, 2017, 03:07:53 AM
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It is not just a "path of the sun" problem with the bipolar map. There are times of day when both eastern Asia and the United States are in daylight, and Europe and Africa are in their nighttime. How do I know? I speak with clients all over the world and so am very familiar with time zones and when I can and cannot reach a client from here in the US. For example, in early March, when it is 3:00 pm in NYC, then it is 4:00 pm in Buenos Aires, 6:00 am in Sydney, 7:00 am on the Kamachatka peninsula in Eastern Siberia, 8:00 am in Auckland, 9:00 pm in Madrid and Cape Town, 10:00 pm in Moscow, 3:00 am in Beijing, and 12:30 am in New Delhi.
In order for that to work on the bipolar map, the darkness of the night would be located in the middle of the map slicing diagonally across Africa and Europe and much of Asia (but not all of Asia), while the left and right sides including North and South America, Hawaii, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, and far eastern Russia would be in daylight. Japan and China would be in darkness while Australia and Eastern Siberia would be in daylight. That would be quite a trick with just one Sun. Really, how do New Gunea and Eastern Siberia manage to be in daylight when China and Japan are between them on the map and yet would be in darkness?
Maybe there are two suns...and the reason we can't ever see both at the same time....is.....because.....?
Actually, the more I look at the map, I see that the area of daylight forms a very large circle that encloses the area of darkness on the map....how the heck would that work?
At least the unipolar map does not have this problem of a circle of sunlight enclosing an area of darkness.
PS: It is also daylight on Wake Island, but I am not sure where that appears on the bipolar map. It is located east of Japan. So if it is on the right side of the bipolar map, then it clearly completes the circle of daylight surrounding the areas of darkness on the bipolar map.
Do any flat earthers have an explanation for how daylight forms a circle surrounding the area of night on the bipolar map?
Note added: I also found a representation of an impossible circular area of daylight in December on the more typical unipolar map which i added to this thread here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg114879#msg114879
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In order to help visualize the effect, attached is a bipolar map with the area of darkness circled in red. All areas outside the red circle would be in daylight, while all areas inside the circle would be in darkness....again at 3:00 pm in NYC in March.
How does that work? Can anyone explain this phenomenon?
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Not to mention that you can sail west from Hawaii (on the far left side of the map, and thereby reach Asia on the far right side of the map. How does that work?
Or fly from Sydney to Honolulu in about 9 hours when they are almost completely on opposite sides of the map? See: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA3/history/20170414/1205Z/YSSY/PHNL
Maybe this map bears little resemblance to reality? What do you think?
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Two issues:
- No one has ever claimed that map was accurate or verified. It is just a representation that someone posted to illustrate the idea of a map with two poles. That picture is actually a well known map projection of the globe earth, although I forget what it is called offhand.
- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
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Two issues:
- No one has ever claimed that map was accurate or verified. It is just a representation that someone posted to illustrate the idea of a map with two poles. That picture is actually a well known map projection of the globe earth, although I forget what it is called offhand.
- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that the earth is a globe when you made that circle. It's not.
You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map? How do you plot the path of the sun in your bipolar model without referring to an accurate map of the earth's surface? There is no path of the sun that would create a circle of darkness enclosed by daylight on the earth's surface, and yet you speak with relative specificity about where the sun is at various times of year as if you are referring to an understanding of where things are located on the earth including various lines of longitude and latitude. Are you saying you know where the sun is most of the time, but not where the continents are?
And meanwhile there still is not any semblance of an even remotely accurate flat earth map, which is quite an indictment of the flat earth theory that no one has created even a rough sketch of the earth's surface that makes sense given the data that is available regarding the shapes of, sizes of, distances between and relative directions between the various continents. As I suggested in this post, it should not take a cartographer to create a roughly accurate map: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6067.msg114505#msg114505
There are lots of resources online that can tell you the time of sunrise and sunset at most locations, including this one that I use quite effectively to arrange my appointments with people all over the world: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To claim there are no records is just plain incorrect. Humans have been keeping records of things like the sunrise and sunset since agriculture began and probably before. I have noticed you make a lot of these sweeping statements claiming there are no records and yet if the calculators were wrong, don't you think the people who use them would have noticed by now?
And besides, here is a website with weather records including sunrise and sunset: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/MUHA/2010/4/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=San%20Francisco&req_statename=Cuba. Note that the page linked to shows that on April 10th, 2010, the sun rose in Havana, Cuba at 7:10 am and set at 7:49 pm. You can search other locations and dates using their database. How much data do you need to believe that the sun was up in say Auckland when it was 3:00 pm in NYC in March of this year?
I did not assume the earth was a globe when I made that circle. I merely calculated the time of day in several of the locations on the map and discovered that the area of daylight surrounded an area of darkness on that map.
I already know the map is wrong. You seem to suggest that you know that the map is wrong also, even though you refer to it. And you continue to dodge the question of what does the map of the earth's surface actually look like? I am pretty sure I know why you dodge that question, and it is not because you do not have the resources to draw on a piece of paper with a pencil, or cut out the continents from a map that shows them in their correct shapes and sizes and then arrange them like puzzle pieces on a flat surface so that they correspond roughly to the data that is widely available regarding sunrise, sunset, flight times, the path of the sun and more. Exact accuracy is not needed. Just show us a map that is even remotely plausible.
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There are lots of resources online that can tell you the time of sunrise and sunset at most locations, including this one that I use quite effectively to arrange my appointments with people all over the world: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To claim there are no records is just plain incorrect. Humans have been keeping records of things like the sunrise and sunset since agriculture began and probably before. I have noticed you make a lot of these sweeping statements claiming there are no records and yet if the calculators were wrong, don't you think the people who use them would have noticed by now?
And besides, here is a website with weather records including sunrise and sunset: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/MUHA/2010/4/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=San%20Francisco&req_statename=Cuba. Note that the page linked to shows that on April 10th, 2010, the sun rose in Havana, Cuba at 7:10 am and set at 7:49 pm. You can search other locations and dates using their database. How much data do you need to believe that the sun was up in say Auckland when it was 3:00 pm in NYC in March of this year?
Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
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You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map?
Why do I need to reference a map rather than a model? Is it not possible to know how a door works without knowing exactly what textures are on its surface?
We don't have the budget to explore the world and collect data for the shape and placement of continents. What do I look like, the King of England?
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And yet the calculators work! What a concept, that someone can accurately predict the sunrise and sunset after humans have been observing them for hundreds of thousands of years!
Did you test the calculators against your own location? Do you know people in other places around the world? If you are going to discount these calculators, at least show us a few examples where they are wrong by a wide enough margin to call into question my assertion about the area of daylight on the map.
This kind of brings us back around to the discussion I have tried to have with you on other threads. You criticize the methods and data used by anyone arguing for a round earth, and yet the same criticisms apply to your own observations and those of other flat earthers. For example you suggest astronomical observations are not really scientific and yet you post astronomical observations on here when you think they support your theory. And when someone challenged you to repeat your Monterrey Bay experiment in other locations, you argued this was not necessary, and yet now you are suggesting that I can conclude nothing about sunrise and sunset without directly measuring it in every spot on earth or something similarly impossible. Time to take a long look in the mirror before you summarily criticize someone else's data.
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And yet the calculators work!
Where can we find the observation logs that the calculators work everywhere on earth at all times of the year?
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You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map?
Why do I need to reference a map rather than a model? Is it not possible to know how a door works without knowing exactly what textures are on its surface?
We don't have the budget to explore the world and collect data for the shape and placement of continents. What do I look like, the King of England?
However, if you really would like this map to be created, all donations are appreciated.
Fortunately, many Kings and Queens and Presidents have already done all of the work for you when they and their subjects traveled the world over the past several millenia. Every year there are over 3.5 million commercial air flights. Do you think they all fly without knowing the location of the places they are flying to? Again you argue over and over that there is no data, and yet we are drowning in data in this, the information age.
And what is a map (or a globe for that matter) but a model of reality? You are saying you refer to a model, well then show us the model you are referring to. When you say the sun goes here and then there in the course of a year, how do you know where "here" is and where "there" is? Are you just picturing it in your head? Or do you refer to a map and draw on it with your finger? Where is the model you are referring to that lets you know how the flat earth works, and how the movement of the sun explains the day and night and seasons?
If you cannot show us your model, then it is not a model.....it is a figment of your imagination.
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Fortunately, many Kings and Queens and Presidents have already done all of the work for you when they and their subjects traveled the world over the past several millenia.
They had a much bigger budget to create something which they could fit their round world into. If you would like us to conduct similar surveys for the flat world model, you can give this a good head start by sending all of your money via Paypal to tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. Please select "gift" on the dropdown menu. Thank you.
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And yet the calculators work!
Where can we find the observation logs that the calculators work everywhere on earth at all times of the year?
There are currently 7.5 billion people on earth. Has anyone counted them all? No. But there are calculators that have been tested over and over and shown to be accurate within reasonable degrees of accuracy for such info. If we need to prove every statement and every calculator with all available data, then no statement can ever be proved, and no calculator would have any usefulness. You have a tendency to pick an aspect of the argument that is fairly irrelevant and then use that to somehow cast doubt on the basic premise.
Again, I challenge you to show even a single example where the calculators are off by enough of a margin to call into question what this thread is about: the area of daylight on the current bipolar map in March at 3:00 pm in NYC. And the resulting question: if that map is impossible, then what is the correct map? The rest is just your usual way of derailing the discussion onto irrelevancies, like suggesting that you must mount a completely new effort to measure the land masses of earth before you could ever presume to draw a rough sketch of the earth's surface.
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"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.
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"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.
That's not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue. If you are going to bring "enlightenment" to this issue then there has to be something proactive within you. Placing the burden of proof on someone else only makes you appear incapable of a decent argument.
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That's not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue.
So are atheists. Do atheists need to disprove the existence of God now because they are the minority?
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"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.
Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information: time of sunrise and sunset around the world and the shape and size of the world's major land masses that have been explored and traveled between for millenia. And yet you compare them to ghosts. If the datum I am posting about are ghosts, then what data can you provide supporting the flat earth that is not equally ghostlike?
Again have you measured the distance you can see over every section of the earth? Why should I believe your experiment when you have not proven it correct without exception? Maybe Monterrey Bay is a strange unexplained anomaly. I will not believe anything you say from now on unless you can show me it is true in every possible setting and location. After all, I do not need to prove that you are wrong: you need to prove that you are always right.
And by the way, thank you for this discussion which is interesting and relatively polite. That is seemingly something that is hard to come by on this website.
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Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information:.
If it's so observed and recorded why are you unable to link me to these records?
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Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information:.
If it's so observed and recorded why are you unable to link me to these records?
Tom, just show us one prediction that is wrong in your own front yard. Do they only get the predictions right in your part of the world?
Secondly, Tom, you have stated that these things have all been observed and that this all follows a recurring pattern. You told me that an astrolabe can predict it.
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That's not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue.
So are atheists. Do atheists need to disprove the existence of God now because they are the minority?
Proof as you seem to define it is impossible. So without proof, we still have the possibility of reasoned argument. But you short circuit that process when you demand absolute and total proof of any assertion. And then we are left arguing over petty and irrelevant considerations, like whether the sun is really up in Aukland when it is 3:00 pm in NYC in March. If we are going to have to prove to you every detail then there is no point in discussion, and similarly, there is no point in discussing your telescope experiment unless you can prove to me that the telescope you used was 500 power and that you were looking in the right direction and that there were no unusual weather conditions and that the waves always allowed you to see great distance when 20 inches above the water and so on and so on. We can still discuss these details even without absolute proof of any of them. And that is and always will be the context of these discussions.
If you insist on absolute proof of everything I say, and are unwilling to offer even a single example that disproves anything I say, then you might as well just take your bat and your ball home and we will have to call off the game.
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A more useful discussion might be if you would either show us or describe in some detail the model you are using for a flat earth. If it cannot be shown or even carefully described, then it is not a model. Definition of "model": a three-dimensional representation of a person or thing or of a proposed structure, typically on a smaller scale than the original.
Is it just something you picture in your head?
What two dimensional shape is the plane of the flat earth? Is it round or square in your model, or some other shape?
Do the oceans surround the land and extend to infinity, or is there an ice ring at the outermost areas?
How do you imagine it to be? Can you draw that for us? Do you have even a rough idea of the shape, size and location of the continents or are those all completely unknown quantities? Is Australia bigger than the continent of Africa?
Are all distances complete unknowns? Then why does the sun spend a roughly equal amount of time in the North as in the South? Does that not suggest that at least some distances are relatively equal?
Do you ever fly on a commercial airplane? How do you know how long to expect the flights to take if you do not refer to published data and indirectly therefore to the data, maps or computer models the pilots are using?
Have you ever driven across, say, the United States? How did you know how long the trip would take? Did you refer to a map? And if so, therefore is there some data about the size and shape of the continents that you believe is correct enough to plan your vacation around that data? Why can't we use that and similar data in creating a map of the entire world? Is it really necessary to go out and measure everything again?
Do you ever speak to people in other parts of the world? If so, how do you determine what time is appropriate to speak with them? Do you refer to online calculators to see what time it is in some other location, like say Vietnam, Tokyo, Hawaii? If not, how do you calculate the time of day in other locations, and/or how does your model explain these differences in the time of day in a way that allows you to predict that if you call Delhi at a particular time, the person you are trying to reach will likely be at their job?
What and where are the north pole and the south pole in your model? Is Antarctica a continent or an ice ring? How far apart are the two poles? How far apart are the lines of longitude in your model at different lines of latitude? What is the distance from the North pole to the equator? In your model, can you start off in any direction from the north pole and eventually reach the equator by traveling in a straight line? You cannot do this on the bipolar map.
And in that same vein, on a flat surface, a line is the shortest distance between any two points. In your model of the world, where is the shortest possible line connecting the north pole and the south pole (i.e. what is the shortest line of longityde)? What other countries or cities does it pass through? (On the current bipolar map it is the prime meridian and passes through England.) Since every other line connecting the north pole and the south pole on a flat surface would by definition no longer be the shortest distance, how much longer are the lines connecting the two points that pass through other countries and cities? Are these lines curved? How does one navigate along a curved line of longitude, including lines that would need to change their direction by up to 180 degrees? Again, there can only be one straight line connecting the north and south pole on a truly flat earth.
How far apart are the lines of latitude? Do they remain a consistent distance from one another, or do they vary? If the latter, by how much do they vary? In the bipolar map, two lines of latitude can vary in their distance apart by many thousands of miles depending on where you are on one of the lines of longitude? For example, Achorage and Oslo are both at roughly the same latitude, but in the bipolar map, Anchorage is twice as far away from the equator. Is that the case in your model of the world?
And if you really want to only consider information you can directly observe, then have you personally observed the Analemma of the Sun? Have you observed that it does occur in every spot on earth? Have you been to the southern hemisphere or the equator and have you personally observed and recorded the paths of the stars? Why are these astronomical observations of any value when you claim astronomical observations are not scientific? How did you determine the distance between Lover's Point and Santa Cruz? Did you personally measure the distance in a boat or airplane or did you refer to some published map or database of the geography in that area? How can you be certain that those two points are actually that far apart? After all, the map you used may have been created using data from a world leader or organization that was just creating something to fit their round world model.
You say you have a model of how the earth is shaped and how the apparent movements in the sky work. Let's discuss that and not proofs that are never enough for you. So far, it seems to me that the attached drawing is the model you have, since you deny the validity of, or even the capacity to determine, anything more specific about the surface of the flat earth, and the validity of any but the most obvious astronomical observations:
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Careful - don't get Bishop Tom started on the analemma - last time he tried explaining it he said it was evidence that the sun traces a figure-8 in the sky because it switches directions and goes backwards over the south pole in winter.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6072.msg114202#msg114202
And I wouldn't hold your breath for any mathematically coherent model.
Once again, the tools needed to express the Flat argument for the movements of the sun in terms used by most debaters are these:
The height of the Sun
The size of the Sun
The luminosity of the Sun
The composition of the Sun
The orbital characteristics of the Sun
- width of ellipse
- speed in various seasons
The refractive index of the atmosphere
The speed of light
The rate at which light loses energy in the atmosphere (since it fades rapidly with distance)
The dimensions of the light cone (in the spotlight sun model)
All in an easily workable list. Should be no problem at all for a coherent cosmological model used to explain the realities witnessed every day by billions of people!
And if the answer is "I don't know" then so be it! We understand.
But it does mean you'll have to find some alternative explanation quick smart if you want to make your theory worth anything.
I suggest going from top to bottom, being very careful how each is answered. The wrong numbers could mean something fascinatingly disastrous for your model.
Have fun.
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If you guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
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If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
Very funny.
How about you humor us by sharing what your current model already shows in regard to any of our questions, in lieu of charging us for further research. If you cannot answer any of our general questions, then it would appear that you do not actually have a model of a flat earth. Or at least that you have created a model in your head, or perhaps just a theory that the earth is flat, that is based on some random observations. Does not sound very Zetetic to me. Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist want to collect the data first before claiming to know what the shape of the earth really is? What actual experiments and real world measurements of the surface of the earth have you carried out besides looking through a telescope at a distant beach when the distance to that beach is not something that you have personally measured? Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist want to be sure that the model is supported by the actual distances one must travel between different points on the surface of the earth before claiming to know what shape the surface is? Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist wait for funding to carry out the necessary experiments (and perhaps measurements since you do not seem to trust existing measurements) before forming a definitive model?
And what about the personal questions? Do you fly commercial and when you do, do you trust the published estimates of flight times? I have flown a lot including overseas, and more than 90% of the time, I have arrived close to the published time which corresponds to the flight calculators online. When the time varies noticeably, there is an obvious explanation: i.e. delayed take off, headwinds, holding pattern upon arrival.
Do you talk to other people in different time zones? How do you know in advance when to call them? Do you use online calculators to determine the time of day in various locations....or do you just randomly call until you catch someone without rousing them from a deep sleep?
And you still have never addressed my question as to why you offer astronomical observations as evidence for your flat earth theory when you have repeatedly denied that astronomical observations qualify as valid and scientific data to base a theory on? How are you different in this regard than astronomers, astrologers and primitive tribal people?
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If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
So, remember how you tried to invalidate an experiment because of the subject of compensation?
Yeah. That was a thing.
So either put up or shut up, Bish. You have nothing.
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If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
So, remember how you tried to invalidate an experiment because of the subject of compensation?
Yeah. That was a thing.
So either put up or shut up, Bish. You have nothing.
Please be kind to Tom Bishop. He is the spokesman for the FES and the authority for the FES.
He is pretty good at "low content", too.
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It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1zp48dh.jpg)
So it is not in March like on the bipolar map, but rather in December that the unipolar map has an area of daylight that forms a complete circle around the area of nightime darkness.
I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does. Does any one have a plausible explanation that does not involve a spherical earth?
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There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
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There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times. Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated. According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.
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There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times. Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated. According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.
According to all the observers I know, they haven't looked at the sunrise and sunset times that happen at every point on earth throughout the year.
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It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1zp48dh.jpg)
Yes, someone did allege this baselessly a while back. If I post a picture of a round Earth with a lit area in the shape of Super Mario, will you also accept it as evidence?
I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does.
Congratulations!
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It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1zp48dh.jpg)
Yes, someone did allege this baselessly a while back. If I post a picture of a round Earth with a lit area in the shape of Super Mario, will you also accept it as evidence?
I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does.
Congratulations!
I am not currently believing any evidence based on the bipolar and unipolar maps, but it is all I have to work with since there are so few other maps of the flat earth that have been offered for consideration. So in this thread, by pointing out the flaws in those maps, I am really questioning the entire model of a flat earth since no one has ever offered a map or model of a flat earth that is consistent with areas of daylight throughout the year, and also with flight paths and distances in the real world. If you have better evidence including a better map or model that does explain such things, then please do share. It is fine with me if it is offered at first as a theoretical possibility, and also if it is not extremely accurate. I am just looking for a starting point for conversation as to how these observed phenomenon would be possible on a flat earth. I have not seen any such roughly constructed or loosely described map, model or geometric construct that even suggests that all of these observations would be possible on a flat earth. I take it this forum has been going for a while and I may not have seen it yet. Have you? Again, if so, please share it with me.
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Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?
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Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?
Please explain more. We know the times of sunrise and sunset across the earth into the future, all calculations based on a round earth. All past calculations shown to be correct.
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Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?
Please explain more. We know the times of sunrise and sunset across the earth into the future, all calculations based on a round earth. All past calculations shown to be correct.
It seems that Tom Bishop wants someone to provide him with detailed records corroborating those calculators throughout history and for every location on earth. It is his favorite way of deflecting the conversation on here, to demand absolute proof that cannot be provided, and then to use that absence of proof to deny widely observed phenomenon. If you ask him to prove even one example of the calculators being wrong, he complains that you are unfairly shifting the burden of proof and so dodges that question also.
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that. Why are you any different?
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.
Why are you any different?
You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.
If you stated a particular place and a particular time (or several places and several times as I did in starting this thread), I would simply test it/them against the calculators that I have come to trust since I use them regularly to communicate with people around the world. If your report of the sun's locations at those times and places were correct and yet still disproved the globe earth, then we would for sure have a very lively discussion and it would get me to question my assumptions. If your particular places and times were incorrect according to the calculators, then, yes I would ask for more definitive proof of your particular claims, as I would find it very hard to believe you.
But that is not what you do, and so that is how we are different.
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that. Why are you any different?
'We' are not. Do published times for sunrise and set in your area differ from observations? You seem to avoid providing any current measured or observed proof of a flat earth.
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There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times. Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated. According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.
According to all the observers I know, they haven't looked at the sunrise and sunset times that happen at every point on earth throughout the year.
Fortunately we have things like language and telecommunication, and we don't need one person to corroborate every observation on Earth. But please tell us more about how sunrise times can't be trusted, but Rowbotham can.
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.
Why are you any different?
You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.
I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.
Why are you any different?
You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.
I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.
Incorrect. You could not even give us one.
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.
Why are you any different?
You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.
I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.
Try us.
And remember that we can always check your claims by contacting people all over the world through email or other means to test your claim, in addition to the calculators that have proven to be correct in my own experience so many times.
It is completely relevant to this discussion to question our evidence, ask for corroborating evidence, and to disprove it when you can. It also is reasonable to question the reasoning we use to make conclusions from that same evidence. It is not at all helpful to this discussion to dismiss any specific claim we make because we cannot provide you with an impossible amount of evidence to prove that those calculators are accurate at all times and all places.
By the way, I might not feel it is worth my while to gather corroborating evidence for the times of daylight posted in the initial post in this thread, or to prove or disprove any similar claims you might make, as I trust the date and time calculators. If you don't, that is of course your prerogative.
So....what are some times and places where observations or calculations of sunrise and sunset disprove the globe earth model? What is your source for those observations or calculations? And what is your reasoning for why those observations disprove the round earth?
In the meantime, it still seems quite revealing that there is no flat earth map that even comes close to consistently corresponding with the observed patterns of daylight, and the literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of flight paths and distances that are recorded and displayed on this site: http://flightaware.com/ There is huge gaping hole in the flat earth theory, and so far no one on here has provided even a roughly drawn sketch of a possible arrangement of the major land masses and ocean areas on a flat surface that even very loosely yet consistently corresponds to these sources of information. And yet a tilted globe does so with surprising accuracy. Therefore, which theory is more likely to be correct?
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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.
Why are you any different?
You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.
I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.
So you are not making any claims that disagree with the round earth model. Interesting.
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By the way, I might not feel it is worth my while to gather corroborating evidence for the times of daylight posted in the initial post in this thread, or to prove or disprove any similar claims you might make, as I trust the date and time calculators. If you don't, that is of course your prerogative.
I am willing to trust the research dateandtime.com has done to come up with their model for daylight. Can you link us to their observational research please?
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By the way, I might not feel it is worth my while to gather corroborating evidence for the times of daylight posted in the initial post in this thread, or to prove or disprove any similar claims you might make, as I trust the date and time calculators. If you don't, that is of course your prerogative.
I am willing to trust the research dateandtime.com has done to come up with their model for daylight. Can you link us to their observational research please?
Why could you not look or ask them?
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html
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By the way, I might not feel it is worth my while to gather corroborating evidence for the times of daylight posted in the initial post in this thread, or to prove or disprove any similar claims you might make, as I trust the date and time calculators. If you don't, that is of course your prerogative.
I am willing to trust the research dateandtime.com has done to come up with their model for daylight. Can you link us to their observational research please?
Why could you not look or ask them?
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html
I couldn't find any of their observational research on the url you linked. Can you point it out for us?
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By the way, I might not feel it is worth my while to gather corroborating evidence for the times of daylight posted in the initial post in this thread, or to prove or disprove any similar claims you might make, as I trust the date and time calculators. If you don't, that is of course your prerogative.
I am willing to trust the research dateandtime.com has done to come up with their model for daylight. Can you link us to their observational research please?
Why could you not look or ask them?
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html
I couldn't find any of their observational research on the url you linked. Can you point it out for us?
Such as? Is there anything you believe to be incorrect?
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Such as? Is there anything you believe to be incorrect?
I asked for the observational data the model is based on. Surely they did not just assume that the earth was round and nothing more. Are you going to link the research for us or will you keep trying to tap dance your way out of this paper bag?
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Such as? Is there anything you believe to be incorrect?
I asked for the observational data the model is based on. Surely they did not just assume that the earth was round and nothing more. Are you going to link the research for us or will you keep trying to tap dance your way out of this paper bag?
I am sure you are more than capable of finding the information regarding the size and shape of the earth.
You would agree that measurements of the angle of the sun from different locations at different times shows the shape of the earth. You should contact the dateandtime site for the details of where they obtain ther information from. I look forward to you sharing their reply.
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Stop avoiding. Research please.
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Stop avoiding. Research please.
Why do you not want to provide details of the round earth that we can discuss? You have provided no details to show it is anything other than round. Any recent measurements?
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Stop avoiding. Research please.
Here is the page on timeanddate that describes how to use their solar data: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html
From that page:
"Accuracy
Times are rounded to the nearest minute and should generally match closely with those listed in the annual Astronomical Almanac published jointly by H.M. Nautical Almanac Office in the U.K. and the Naval Observatory in the U.S.
A sample set of 150 records consisting of times for sunrise, sunset, and start and end times for civil, nautical, and astronomical twilight was compared with times listed in The Astronomical Almanac for 2007. Only two differed, both by only one minute, which means that just over 1.3 percent were different in that sample set."
And as for the Almanac mentioned, there is more info on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_Almanac
From that page:
"The Astronomical Almanac is the direct descendant of the British and American navigational almanacs. The British Nautical Almanac and Astronomical Ephemeris had been published since 1766, and was renamed The Astronomical Ephemeris in 1960. The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac had been published since 1852. In 1981 the British and American publications were combined under the title The Astronomical Almanac."
More info is here: http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/publicat/asa.html
So these publications have been used by navigators and astronomers for 250 years to accurately predict the position of the sun, moon and other celestial objects. As you probably know, before GPS and similar technologies, sailors and explorers used celestial navigation to successfully navigate the world. In order for such a system of navigation to work, you need to know where the sun and other celestial objects will be at a specified time to a fairly high degree of accuracy, so these almanacs were tested over hundreds of years and found to be accurate. And furthermore, for the hundreds of years that celestial navigation has proven to be so reliable, it was based on the geographic position of celestial bodies over a globe. That entire system of navigation is based on the round earth model.
Here is an excerpt from this page on Wikipedia about celestial navigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation
"Celestial navigation is the use of angular measurements (sights) between celestial bodies and the visible horizon to locate one's position on the globe, on land as well as at sea. At a given time, any celestial body is located directly over one point on the Earth's surface. The longitude of that point is known as the celestial body’s geographic position (GP), the location of which can be determined from (a year long observation of the stars at that location and subsequent shared) tables in the Nautical or Air Almanac for that year." (emphasis added)
So the almanacs were initially created from repeated observations until the calculators became accurate enough to be reliable.
Seems like a pretty reliable system overall. Do you see any flaws in their process?
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Another source is this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_Tables_of_the_Sun
"Newcomb's Tables were the basis for practically all ephemerides of the Sun published from 1900 through 1983, including the annual almanacs of the U.S. Naval Observatory and the Royal Greenwich Observatory. The tables are seldom used now; since the Astronomical Almanac for 1984 they have been superseded by more accurate numerically-integrated ephemerides developed at Jet Propulsion Laboratory, based on much more accurate observations than were available to Newcomb. Also, the tables did not account for the effects of general relativity which was unknown at the time. Nevertheless, his tabulated values remain accurate to within a few seconds of arc to this day." (emphasis added).
So the calculators have even been improved to become more and more accurate over time based on more recent observations, although the earlier calculations were remarkably correct also.
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Careful here Nirmala, lest they draw you off, see;
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5487.msg106775#msg106775
Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?
The last one is particularly galling, as their favourite “read the Wiki” is a loose conglomeration of dark age babble and hilarious conjecture that gives them room enough to wriggle out of any attempt to nail them down on what they individually believe.
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Careful here Nirmala, lest they draw you off, see;
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5487.msg106775#msg106775
Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?
The last one is particularly galling, as their favourite “read the Wiki” is a loose conglomeration of dark age babble and hilarious conjecture that gives them room enough to wriggle out of any attempt to nail them down on what they individually believe.
Yes, I am expecting Junker to say something soon like, "Still no evidence for your position, then. Gotcha." or "I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed." And this post will probably be flagged for low content :P
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Careful here Nirmala, lest they draw you off, see;
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5487.msg106775#msg106775
Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?
The last one is particularly galling, as their favourite “read the Wiki” is a loose conglomeration of dark age babble and hilarious conjecture that gives them room enough to wriggle out of any attempt to nail them down on what they individually believe.
Yes, I am expecting Junker to say something soon like, "Still no evidence for your position, then. Gotcha." or "I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed." And this post will probably be flagged for low content :P
I don't think it's low content when you bring up suggestions made by the FE side toward the RE side. It would be helpful if the RE side actually took that advice. It would help clear up many of their logical errors.
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And once again, Junker manages to suggest that there are logical errors without actually detailing what they are and how to correct them.... I think I see a lapwing trying unsuccessfully to protect their own
(http://cdn2.arkive.org/media/85/850486D5-0000-473F-B768-7ED6C4B1FFE8/Presentation.Large/Lapwing-mobbing-a-heron-as-it-predates-a-lapwing-chick.jpg)
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And once again, Junker manages to suggest that there are logical errors without actually detailing what they are and how to correct them.... I think I see a lapwing trying unsuccessfully to protect their own
Well, it's very clear the vast majority of RErs do not understand burden of proof. As it has been argued about recently in the upper fora, I'd suggest going and reading the threads. That is just one example. Given that your bias will likely keep you from admitting what is readily apparent, I would suggest keeping the thread on topic. Thanks!
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And once again, Junker manages to suggest that there are logical errors without actually detailing what they are and how to correct them.... I think I see a lapwing trying unsuccessfully to protect their own
Well, it's very clear the vast majority of RErs do not understand burden of proof. As it has been argued about recently in the upper fora, I'd suggest going and reading the threads. That is just one example. Given that your bias will likely keep you from admitting what is readily apparent, I would suggest keeping the thread on topic. Thanks!
You need to give some specific examples of where proof is lacking.
At the same time please provide proof of measured distances that show a flat earth.
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Nirmala (The Heron) and other members of the RE Collective (I like that Rama), have done an expert demolition job of the FE maps and “model” posted on the wiki, you know the wiki you keep sending people to when they want stuff clearing up. Only to hear that the maps are not meant to be accurate and don’t represent the “model” and indeed there isn’t anything close to a map especially if we are going to insist on using cartesian coordinates(?), and the times that we are told that sunset/sunrise happen around the world can’t be trusted as nobody we know was in Ulan-Bator to watch the sunset last Tuesday.
And all you can come up with is “Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?”
As I type this it’s 16.52, I will check the sunset time that is predicted for hear on the MET office (20.07 Leicester England by the way), get the rest of the community to do the same, see if we can all get a consensus on predicted sunset times.
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You need to give some specific examples of where proof is lacking.
I appreciate that RErs ask for evidence when they routinely refuse to provide any evidence for their claims. Alas, a brief look at the top threads in the upper fora will yield plenty of examples.
At the same time please provide proof of measured distances that show a flat earth.
I presume this is your attempt to keep the thread on topic, although you opened with an off-topic statement that when I specifically requested the thread stay on topic. Unless I've made a claim here that you want proof for, I'm not sure why you're addressing me. I came in this thread because I was called out in an off-topic post.
So, consider this a warning to all of you who can't seem to stay on topic.
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You need to give some specific examples of where proof is lacking.
I appreciate that RErs ask for evidence when they routinely refuse to provide any evidence for their claims. Alas, a brief look at the top threads in the upper fora will yield plenty of examples.
At the same time please provide proof of measured distances that show a flat earth.
I presume this is your attempt to keep the thread on topic, although you opened with an off-topic statement that when I specifically requested the thread stay on topic. Unless I've made a claim here that you want proof for, I'm not sure why you're addressing me. I came in this thread because I was called out in an off-topic post.
So, consider this a warning to all of you who can't seem to stay on topic.
Sorry, don't understand what ' top threads in the upper fora' means, please give a link. I'm also unclear what specific evidence is required for a round earth.
A discussion about areas of daylight needs agreement on the shape of the earth and the specific and relative location of land areas.
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Sorry, don't understand what ' top threads in the upper fora' means, please give a link. I'm also unclear what specific evidence is required for a round earth.
The most current threads in the Flat Earth Discussion Boards.
A discussion about areas of daylight needs agreement on the shape of the earth and the specific and relative location of land areas.
I'd suggest sticking to discussing that, then.
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Nirmala (The Heron) and other members of the RE Collective (I like that Rama), have done an expert demolition job of the FE maps and “model” posted on the wiki, you know the wiki you keep sending people to when they want stuff clearing up. Only to hear that the maps are not meant to be accurate and don’t represent the “model” and indeed there isn’t anything close to a map especially if we are going to insist on using cartesian coordinates(?), and the times that we are told that sunset/sunrise happen around the world can’t be trusted as nobody we know was in Ulan-Bator to watch the sunset last Tuesday.
And all you can come up with is “Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?”
As I type this it’s 16.52, I will check the sunset time that is predicted for hear on the MET office (20.07 Leicester England by the way), get the rest of the community to do the same, see if we can all get a consensus on predicted sunset times.
The Heron! I like that. Maybe I will change my user name :D
As for sunrise and sunset, I just checked my location on timeanddate.com. I do not need to even time it exactly to know the times are close enough to support the original question in this thread as I am awake at both sunrise and sunset and so I know when the sky turns light and dark. Even if the times I quoted were off here and there by 10 or 15 minutes, the basic premise would still be true: that the sunlight on the bipolar map forms a circle around the areas of darkness.
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Stop avoiding. Research please.
I stopped avoiding and posted the relevant sources for the times on timeanddate.com along with the reasoning for why they should be trusted.
Why do you avoid a thread like this once we actually post the information you have asked for. You stopped replying on the other thread about flight times after demanding that I provide a database showing the distances between various points on the earth. Once I pointed out that there actually is an immense database of the distances and flight paths between all of the major airports on the planet that are connected by nonstop flights (http://flightaware.com/), which adds up to records of hundreds of thousands if not millions of flights, you stopped replying on the thread.
I provide the info you demand and then you stop discussing. What is your rebuttal now to the data on timeanddate.com, since I have presented the source for that data as the Astronomical Almanac, used by navigators for 250 years to determine the location in the sky of celestial bodies?
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I was wondering similar why for instance that Sydney gets 14 hours daylight in December and the Arctic circle gets none
(because the spotlight would need to be roughly grin shaped to cover taht area on the UN flag map.)
the sky is starting to dim and the timeanddate.com says it should set in 1 minutes.
I am in Salem Oregon. at 20:04 my time
I was not looking right at the sunset to tell exactly though...as my bedroom window faces north.
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I just realized that there is an even more ridiculously impossible pattern of daylight on the bipolar map and posted about it here:
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6072.msg115532#msg115532
In short, on Dec. 21st, if the sun circles the south pole of the bipolar map, then at certain times of day, the entire northern hemisphere would be in darkness as the sun would be on the other side of the south pole from all land masses in the north (position B on the attached map). However, it is never simultaneously dark in the entire northern hemisphere, even in the depths of winter, so the bipolar map is inherently incorrect.
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"The Astronomical Almanac is the direct descendant of the British and American navigational almanacs. The British Nautical Almanac and Astronomical Ephemeris had been published since 1766, and was renamed The Astronomical Ephemeris in 1960. The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac had been published since 1852. In 1981 the British and American publications were combined under the title The Astronomical Almanac."
More info is here: http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/publicat/asa.html
Another source is this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_Tables_of_the_Sun
"Newcomb's Tables were the basis for practically all ephemerides of the Sun published from 1900 through 1983, including the annual almanacs of the U.S. Naval Observatory and the Royal Greenwich Observatory. The tables are seldom used now; since the Astronomical Almanac for 1984 they have been superseded by more accurate numerically-integrated ephemerides developed at Jet Propulsion Laboratory, based on much more accurate observations than were available to Newcomb. Also, the tables did not account for the effects of general relativity which was unknown at the time. Nevertheless, his tabulated values remain accurate to within a few seconds of arc to this day." (emphasis added).
So the calculators have even been improved to become more and more accurate over time based on more recent observations, although the earlier calculations were remarkably correct also.
Nirmala,
Look at the words "Ephemeris" and "ephemerides" in the sources you provided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris
Modern ephemerides are often computed electronically from mathematical models of the motion of astronomical objects and the Earth. Even though the calculation of these tables was one of the first applications of mechanical computers, printed ephemerides are still produced, as they are useful when computational devices are not available.
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Nirmala,
Look at the words "Ephemeris" and "ephemerides" in the sources you provided on the previous page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris
Modern ephemerides are often computed electronically from mathematical models of the motion of astronomical objects and the Earth. Even though the calculation of these tables was one of the first applications of mechanical computers, printed ephemerides are still produced, as they are useful when computational devices are not available.
Yes, I get it that most of the data in these publications and on the timeanddate.com website are calculated. However, the links I offered explained that those calculations are based on observations taken over hundreds of years and the calculations are also refined when new technology allowed more accurate observations. Both the observations and calculations have proven reliable enough to have been used for those hundreds of years to navigate the oceans and less populated areas of the earth. If they were inaccurate, they would have been blamed by now for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of deaths over the centuries from shipwrecks and people lost in the wilderness. But instead the publications have been continuously published for 250 years and trusted by both navigators and astronomers who want to know when they can make their observations to avoid disasters at sea or when using extremely expensive telescopes where every minute of available time to make observations was and is considered too valuable to waste by looking in the wrong place at the wrong time. Computers have taken over for most applications from the paper publications, but the computations are the same ones used for centuries, and the results are accurate both when published on paper and when performed by a computer program.
I trust a collected body of knowledge (both observed and calculated) with that kind of track record, and yet you seem to not trust it, even when it also is used every day by people who simply need to know what time of the day it is somewhere else in the world, and/or what time of the day to head down to the beach to watch the sunset.
This is similar to our discussion about flight times. Airlines and air passengers all over the world trust the published schedules to give an accurate estimate of the time their flights will take, and the flightaware.com website collects and provides the actual flight data,,yet you seem to think there is no data. Although actually, I do not know what you think of the flightaware.com website I provided since you simply stopped participating on that thread. I did discover that if you simply register for free on their site, you can then access four months of recent flight data for any commercial flight that connects two airports on this planet based on the over 100,000 commercial flights completed each day. That all adds up to millions of data points documenting the times and therefore distances between those points with enough average accuracy to completely debunk all of the flat earth maps presented so far.
I don't know if you are suspicious of all outside information to an extreme degree, or if you simply feel threatened when there is overwhelming evidence that refutes your belief system. I also have considered that you simply post on here to see what kind of reaction you can get. You obviously do not owe me or anyone else an explanation, but I do find you unusually resistant to any evidence or even the invitation to conduct your own observations, including one that only requires you to step outside with a long straight stick. And yet, in another post, you offer to allow yourself to be sent up in a high altitude balloon and also promise to report back honestly on what you see. I have my own contradictions and hypocrisies to answer for in life, so I will leave you to yours.
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Here is something that is cheaper on the budget. Get a pilot who is a flat earth believer. Fly over the "Antarctic ice wall" and get us pictures and videos of where it meets outer space.
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Here is something that is cheaper on the budget. Get a pilot who is a flat earth believer. Fly over the "Antarctic ice wall" and get us pictures and videos of where it meets outer space.
Not needed. Look below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNefFfo4EpU
It's a 7 year long research done by many scientists to find the real shape of our earth. They're either all very good liars or we actually live on a flat earth where BIGGER LIERS have constructed a false "Global" reality to hid something from us. I wouldn't be surpised, ONE BIG LIE (Moon landing) and all the puffed up pride has just led to series of lies that have gone too far (that's it's not funny anymore).
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Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.
People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.
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Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.
People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.
"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?
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- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.
That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.
I have worked on ships for 33 years, of which at least 2/3 of which has been spent on board, all over the world as a navigator.
We rely upon the calculated times of sunrise and sunset, we rely on the almanacs for accuracy for position fixing.
In the 22 years of being on board a ship, not ONCE has the predicted time of sunset or sunrise, meridianal passage (noon) Ever been in question, or differed from the tabulated values, or the calculated time.
Sunset is pretty easy to calculate if you know your latitude, which has been obtainable for hundreds of years before that from Polaris (you do accept that Polaris is almost above the North Pole i take it?), and tables.
You dont even really need your longitude as you can OBSERVE and MEASURE time of meridianol passage (i.e. when the sun is at its highest, bearing north or south, which also can be used to calculate latitude) then you can use this to determine the time that sun sets, and rises.
This in fact was how towns and cities around the UK determined noon, and therefore local time, before the invention of the telegraph, and it was the introduction of the railways that brought forward the requirement to standardise time, as the safety of trains would be a nightmare if each city used its own time.
An example of this is Bristol, UK, who had local time about 10 minutes after London. It needed standardising and hence was born GMT.
However this is still relevant to the topic, as it shows how meridian all passage was used to determine local time, and that is used to determine sunset.
At places of the same lattitude sunset occurs at the same LOCAL time each day, the differences in the same time zones are the differences of geographical locations within the same time zone.
Using the example above, London (Greenwich actually) is at 0 degrees, and Bristol is at 2 degrees 35 minutes west, and whilst there should not be any arguments that the sun goes round the earth (either flat or global) prescribing 360 degrees in about 24 hours, (lets not get too pedantic about fractions of a second here) then it takes about 4 minutes to pass 1 degree, so the GMT time of sunset will be 10 mins and 20 seconds after London, however if you are using LOCAL time, as determined by the mer pass of the sun it will be at the same time as London.
That means if the time of sunset at London is 18:00 GMT the time of sunset in Bristol will be 18:10.33GMT, but will be 18:00 LT if Bristol is keeping local time.
The fact that it has worked for centuries means that the time of sunset and sunrise has been observed, and recorded in cities for hundreds of years. In fact nearly all newspapers carried times of sunset and sunrise in times gone by. These were observed, and carried forwards, so there are records. The only part you wont like is YOU need to go and find the historical records.
You made the claim they were not recorded. I have given you the proof that they were, you need to counter this other than say “no they were not!”
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Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.
People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.
"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?
Not on this forum, no. Out in the real world that is how people prove things.
For many hundreds of years, the time of sunrise and sunset was critical for human beings. Almanac were published with all this data included.
In a normal debate, there would be certain things accepted. However, that's not how things work here. Is it difficult to verify that published data are correct? No, but it involves some work.
We can see how this works over and over. FE proponent casts doubt on something well-attested. Someone like Tontogary makes measurements on his own behalf, and records them. FE proponents ignore this. Perhaps some FE proponent points to a misleading video, or makes an inaccurate measurement of something.
Meanwhile, sunrise and sunset continue to happen exactly as predicted. I would say like clockwork, but clocks were designed to try to be as accurate as the sun, not the other way around.
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- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.
That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.
Im thinking ill contact TimeAndDate.com and see how many complaints of inaccuracy there have been from people around the world... I'm thinking not many. Anyone wanna take that money?
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Not needed. Look below.
VID
It's a 7 year long research done by many scientists to find the real shape of our earth. They're either all very good liars or we actually live on a flat earth where BIGGER LIERS have constructed a false "Global" reality to hid something from us. I wouldn't be surpised, ONE BIG LIE (Moon landing) and all the puffed up pride has just led to series of lies that have gone too far (that's it's not funny anymore).
See my responses on the other threads where you posted this mockumentary
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Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.
People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.
"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?
You are right, it is not.
If you want proof, test it, and nobody will tamper with your own test.
If you don't want proof, be aware that people understand "why would such proof hurt you".
The way you could be "swayed" is not by my arguments, but by your own observations, if you are honest to yourself.
This is not about me.
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- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.
That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.
Im thinking ill contact TimeAndDate.com and see how many complaints of inaccuracy there have been from people around the world... I'm thinking not many. Anyone wanna take that money?
A good layman's introduction into why the accuracy of these measurements was of vital importance is the book Longitude by Dava Sobel. Latitude was easily determined by observation of the angle of the sun at noon. Longitude had to be calculated by knowing the exact time when this measurement was taken. When accurate chronometers could be found, this allowed the precise position of ships to be calculated. The observation of the sun was not something done by some secret elite in order to conceal the truth. It was essential to the functioning of the entire world economy, and the ability to measure latitude and longitude accurately did much to transform the whole of humanity. So when someone claims that this data is something unproven, that means that nothing can ever be proven. There is no possible way to demonstrate the accuracy of these measurements. Even if a multitude of people checked dawn and dusk around the world, they could all be accused of faking it, or being Russian bots, and the videos they shot would be derided as obviously fake. And someone would measure sunset in a valley between two mountain ranges and say "Look! It's all wrong!"
And finally, if the times were eventually accepted, it would turn out that they were all completely compatible with FE theory after all.