The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 12:12:51 PM

Title: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 12:12:51 PM
If the Earth was accelerating "upward" constantly, bullets/projectiles would not be able to maintain straight lines or altitude for any length of time.

Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 12:32:08 PM
If the Earth was accelerating "upward" constantly, bullets/projectiles would not be able to maintain straight lines or altitude for any length of time.

You realize it would work the same way whether gravity existed or the earth was accelerating, right?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 12:43:15 PM
If the Earth was accelerating "upward" constantly, bullets/projectiles would not be able to maintain straight lines or altitude for any length of time.

You realize it would work the same way whether gravity existed or the earth was accelerating, right?

You realize it would NOT work the same way, right?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 01:10:07 PM
If the Earth was accelerating "upward" constantly, bullets/projectiles would not be able to maintain straight lines or altitude for any length of time.

You realize it would work the same way whether gravity existed or the earth was accelerating, right?

You realize it would NOT work the same way, right?

False. What do you think happens to a bullet fired "straight" immediately after it leaves the barrel? What difference do you see in gravity vs. acceleration in this instance?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 01:17:04 PM
If the Earth was accelerating "upward" constantly, bullets/projectiles would not be able to maintain straight lines or altitude for any length of time.

You realize it would work the same way whether gravity existed or the earth was accelerating, right?



You realize it would NOT work the same way, right?

False. What do you think happens to a bullet fired "straight" immediately after it leaves the barrel? What difference do you see in gravity vs. acceleration in this instance?

Wrong. What do you think would happen if an external object was moving (at over 9 meters per second) directly towards a fired projectile that was, say, 2 meters from the ground?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 01:30:03 PM
It's clear you lack an understanding of basic physics. Do some research on the Equivalence Principle and apply some critical thinking. If you still have questions, I'll be around.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 01:33:56 PM
It's clear you lack an understanding of basic physics. Do some research on the Equivalence Principle and apply some critical thinking. If you still have questions, I'll be around.

Yes, I clearly lack this understanding. I'm not as old, smart, or experienced as you. I'm trying to understand by asking questions. Its how I learn best. Can you please help me to understand?

What would happen if an external object moved upwards at 9 meters per second towards a projectile fired in a straight line, horizontal to the ground, from 2 meters above the ground? How long would it take that external object to reach the projectile?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 01:38:41 PM
I presume you mean accelerating, not moving. And also that you mean 9.8m/s^2. Let me know if I'm assuming wrong.

The same thing that would happen if you dropped an object held at 2m from an accelerating object's surface.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 01:48:15 PM
I presume you mean accelerating, not moving. And also that you mean 9.8m/s^2. Let me know if I'm assuming wrong.

The same thing that would happen if you dropped an object held at 2m from an accelerating object's surface.

1. acceleration is movement and yes: 9.8 meters per second.

2. Forgive me if I've not phrased my question clearly enough - its a problem because of my age - but how long will it take an object moving at 9.8 meters per second to  reach an object moving horizontally at a height of 2 meters?
Title: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 02:16:44 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 03:10:56 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.

This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

What was that thing you said about basic physics?

Obviously, this is why you dont like actually answering questions or engaging with visitors.

However, I do understand and appreciate what flat earth is supposed to be - extreme skepticism. The whole Decartes thing. Good day, folks.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 03:40:05 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.

This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

What was that thing you said about basic physics?

Obviously, this is why you dont like actually answering questions or engaging with visitors.

However, I do understand and appreciate what flat earth is supposed to be - extreme skepticism. The whole Decartes thing. Good day, folks.

Yikes, okay, I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

But by all means, please show it being "demonstrably false." You do know this is one of the most basic physics questions students learn the answer to, right? Please stop being so willfully ignorant. Or don't, whatever you want to do is fine. Take care.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: evergreatful on April 22, 2016, 03:48:06 PM
As REer I see where you are trying to go but frame of reference diminishes this. The reason is because the object in the FE model is already and has always been accelerating at the same speed as the flat earth.  Because of this, it would not fall any faster then normal because you and the bullet were always accelerating upwards. 

However it does bring an interesting question to my mind about why we experience gravitational effects when we accelerate at great speeds.  What causes the effects felt from what RE's call "multiple G's" in the Flat earth model?

G's are even felt when accelerating in a vehicle so it can not be stress caused buy the air pressure or outside effects stressing on the car. For as I just explained if everything is accelerating together such as air in a car, the air is moving at the same speed as well.

Please if Anyone has an answer please let me know what causes what we experience when multiple gravitational Forces are put upon us from extreme acceleration if gravity is not a factor in the FE model. (Please note I know that the Gravity is a debated topic within the FE community and would only like an answer from those who are against gravity in the Model.)
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 03:53:12 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.

This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

What was that thing you said about basic physics?

Obviously, this is why you dont like actually answering questions or engaging with visitors.

However, I do understand and appreciate what flat earth is supposed to be - extreme skepticism. The whole Decartes thing. Good day, folks.

Yikes, okay, I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

But by all means, please show it being "demonstrably false." You do know this is one of the most basic physics questions students learn the answer to, right? Please stop being so willfully ignorant. Or don't, whatever you want to do is fine. Take care.

Dude, come on...if you shoot a bullet out of a gun at a target 100 (or more) yards away and drop a bullet at the exact moment, not only will they not hit the ground at the same time but the fired bullet wont even hit the ground (assuming a decent shot, anyway!). If the Earth was moving/accelerating (especially if it was accerlerating!) upward towards a fired projectile at ANY speed, straight lines for said projectile would be impossible.

And look, I'm not trolling. To be honest, I like arguing against these ideas because they are entertaining. They necessarily require actual reasoning instead of merely repeating what I've heard. I have to actually ask myself "Why does this version of gravity fail?" and come up with thought experiments and such. Extreme skepticism, in any form, is good for the mind.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 03:58:24 PM
the object in the FE model is already and has always been accelerating at the same speed as the flat earth.  Because of this, it would not fall any faster then normal because you and the bullet were always accelerating upwards. 



No it would not. After the projectile is fired, it will be a completely passive participant. It has no propulsion of its own. It is not encased or held by anything.

The gun in the hand of the person standing on the Earth would "be moving upwards at all times". But once the bullet is fired, it will be subjected to gravitational forces IMMEDIATELY.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: evergreatful on April 22, 2016, 04:14:11 PM
however in this model there are no Gravitational forces, therefore it would not, You have to remember that you can not acount for something that is not a factor in this model. 
Title: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 04:15:00 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.

This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

What was that thing you said about basic physics?

Obviously, this is why you dont like actually answering questions or engaging with visitors.

However, I do understand and appreciate what flat earth is supposed to be - extreme skepticism. The whole Decartes thing. Good day, folks.

Yikes, okay, I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

But by all means, please show it being "demonstrably false." You do know this is one of the most basic physics questions students learn the answer to, right? Please stop being so willfully ignorant. Or don't, whatever you want to do is fine. Take care.

Dude, come on...if you shoot a bullet out of a gun at a target 100 (or more) yards away and drop a bullet at the exact moment, not only will they not hit the ground at the same time but the fired bullet wont even hit the ground (assuming a decent shot, anyway!). If the Earth was moving/accelerating (especially if it was accerlerating!) upward towards a fired projectile at ANY speed, straight lines for said projectile would be impossible.

And look, I'm not trolling. To be honest, I like arguing against these ideas because they are entertaining. They necessarily require actual reasoning instead of merely repeating what I've heard. I have to actually ask myself "Why does this version of gravity fail?" and come up with thought experiments and such. Extreme skepticism, in any form, is good for the mind.

Okay, if you're actually interested, then look up the equivalence principle. It will explain to you why gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. Then do a Google search on "which bullet hits the ground first." You'll find that a bullet dropped at the same time as another leaves the barrel also hits the ground at the same time as the one that was fired (again, from the same height, and ignoring wind resistance). From a technical perspective, no bullet travels in a straight line regardless of the model being used. Projectile motion is parabolic, not linear.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 04:34:13 PM
Again, this is why we use the proper terms such as "acceleration" and not "movement." 9.8 meters per second isn't acceleration. 9.8 meters per second squared is.

If you drop an object from a height of 2 meters, it will take ~0.64 seconds to reach the ground (or accelerated object in this instance). If someone shot a bullet "straight" from a height of 2m and someone next to him dropped a bullet at the same time the other person fired, both would hit the ground at the same time (ignoring wind resistance).

This is the case for both RE gravity and FE acceleration. They are equivalent.

This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

What was that thing you said about basic physics?

Obviously, this is why you dont like actually answering questions or engaging with visitors.

However, I do understand and appreciate what flat earth is supposed to be - extreme skepticism. The whole Decartes thing. Good day, folks.

Yikes, okay, I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

But by all means, please show it being "demonstrably false." You do know this is one of the most basic physics questions students learn the answer to, right? Please stop being so willfully ignorant. Or don't, whatever you want to do is fine. Take care.

Dude, come on...if you shoot a bullet out of a gun at a target 100 (or more) yards away and drop a bullet at the exact moment, not only will they not hit the ground at the same time but the fired bullet wont even hit the ground (assuming a decent shot, anyway!). If the Earth was moving/accelerating (especially if it was accerlerating!) upward towards a fired projectile at ANY speed, straight lines for said projectile would be impossible.

And look, I'm not trolling. To be honest, I like arguing against these ideas because they are entertaining. They necessarily require actual reasoning instead of merely repeating what I've heard. I have to actually ask myself "Why does this version of gravity fail?" and come up with thought experiments and such. Extreme skepticism, in any form, is good for the mind.

Okay, if you're actually interested, then look up the equivalence principle. It will explain to you why gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. Then do a Google search on "which bullet hits the ground first." You'll find that a bullet dropped at the same time as another leaves the barrel also hits the ground at the same time as the one that was fired (again, from the same height, and ignoring wind resistance). From a technical perspective, no bullet travels in a straight line regardless of the model being used. Projectile motion is parabolic, not linear.

I'm familiar with these ideas. But perhaps we're not talking about the same thing...

If I shoot a bullet out of a gun at a target, and drop a bullet at the same time, they will definitely not hit the ground at the same time because the one I shot at the target wont even hit the ground.


Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Rounder on April 22, 2016, 04:45:18 PM
Sputnik, I think I see where you've made the mistake here about bullets.  If you fire the gun at a target above ground level, in order to hit that target and not hit the ground you have to aim somewhat up, above the horizontal.  This immediately invalidates the comparison to a dropped bullet, because your fired bullet follows a mostly parabolic path first UP, then eventually down.  (I say "mostly" parabolics because air resistance will shape the actual trajectory and deform the parabla)
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 04:47:22 PM
Yes, I clearly lack this understanding. I'm not as old, smart, or experienced as you. I'm trying to understand by asking questions. Its how I learn best. Can you please help me to understand?

No, you aren't trying to understand. He is giving you good answers and you are refusing to believe him. I realize it's rather difficult to believe any physics coming from a flat-earther, but in this case, he is correct. Perhaps you will believe me instead, as someone who does NOT believe the earth is flat?

Quote
1. acceleration is movement and yes: 9.8 meters per second.

No, acceleration is absolutely NOT the same as movement. 9.8 m/s2 is correct.

Quote
This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

If you assume no obstacles, air resistance, or curvature of the earth, then yes, they will hit the ground at exactly the same time. Horizontal motion and vertical motion are independent.

It's great that you are trying to learn this stuff, but you really need at least a basic understanding of highschool level physics before trying to argue this stuff. By your comments, I assume you haven't taken physics in highschool yet. If you are going to insult someone for their "understanding of basic physics", you better be REALLY sure you are correct. Better yet, just don't insult them at all.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 04:50:35 PM
Yes, I clearly lack this understanding. I'm not as old, smart, or experienced as you. I'm trying to understand by asking questions. Its how I learn best. Can you please help me to understand?

No, you aren't trying to understand. He is giving you good answers and you are refusing to believe him. I realize it's rather difficult to believe any physics coming from a flat-earther, but in this case, he is correct. Perhaps you will believe me instead, as someone who does NOT believe the earth is flat?

Quote
1. acceleration is movement and yes: 9.8 meters per second.

No, acceleration is absolutely NOT the same as movement. 9.8 m/s2 is correct.

Quote
This is demonstrably false. They would not hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet would take significantly longer than half a second to finally hit the ground.

If you assume no obstacles, air resistance, or curvature of the earth, then yes, they will hit the ground at exactly the same time. Horizontal motion and vertical motion are independent.

It's great that you are trying to learn this stuff, but you really need at least a basic understanding of highschool level physics before trying to argue this stuff. By your comments, I assume you haven't taken physics in highschool yet. If you are going to insult someone for their "understanding of basic physics", you better be REALLY sure you are correct. Better yet, just don't insult them at all.

Ok, if I shoot a bullet at a target 100 yards away and drop a bullet at the same time, one will hit the ground and the other wont even hit the ground. Why?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 04:52:03 PM
However it does bring an interesting question to my mind about why we experience gravitational effects when we accelerate at great speeds.  What causes the effects felt from what RE's call "multiple G's" in the Flat earth model?

There is no reason to think G's would be felt any differently under Universal Acceleration than under gravity. Those "gravitational effects" due to acceleration is just further evidence that acceleration feels exactly the same as a force in the opposite direction. See: equivalence principle (As has been stated multiple times already in this thread)
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 04:53:56 PM
If you assume no obstacles, air resistance, or curvature of the earth, then yes, they will hit the ground at exactly the same time. Horizontal motion and vertical motion are independent.

Ok, if I shoot a bullet at a target 100 yards away and drop a bullet at the same time, one will hit the ground and the other wont even hit the ground. Why?

Because there is a target in the way. See the bolded part in my quote.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 04:58:46 PM
Sputnik, I think I see where you've made the mistake here about bullets.  If you fire the gun at a target above ground level, in order to hit that target and not hit the ground you have to aim somewhat up, above the horizontal.  This immediately invalidates the comparison to a dropped bullet, because your fired bullet follows a mostly parabolic path first UP, then eventually down.  (I say "mostly" parabolics because air resistance will shape the actual trajectory and deform the parabla)

Alright, lets put the target close enough and below me at an angle such that the parabolic arch would be horizontal to the surface. I'll have to shoot downward and the bullet will definitely not increase its altitude. Then, I'll drop a bullet at the same time. The dropped bullet will hit the ground and the fired projectile will not. Why?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 05:03:31 PM
Alright, lets put the target close enough and below me at an angle such that the parabolic arch would be horizontal to the surface. I'll have to shoot downward and the bullet will definitely not increase its altitude. Then, I'll drop a bullet at the same time. The dropped bullet will hit the ground and the fired projectile will not. Why?

Ok, now I feel like you are probably just trolling... but just in case you aren't: The target is in the way. Also, you need to shoot horizontally for the experiment to be valid.

If you don't want to wait until your highschool physics course to learn this stuff, lookup a course in kinematics. Khan academy probably has some pretty good lessons on it. Then move on to Newton's laws of motion. Then special relativity. A bit of calculus wouldn't hurt. THEN you can come and argue this stuff to your heart's content.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 05:25:01 PM
Alright, lets put the target close enough and below me at an angle such that the parabolic arch would be horizontal to the surface. I'll have to shoot downward and the bullet will definitely not increase its altitude. Then, I'll drop a bullet at the same time. The dropped bullet will hit the ground and the fired projectile will not. Why?

Ok, now I feel like you are probably just trolling... but just in case you aren't: The target is in the way. Also, you need to shoot horizontally for the experiment to be valid.

If you don't want to wait until your highschool physics course to learn this stuff, lookup a course in kinematics. Khan academy probably has some pretty good lessons on it. Then move on to Newton's laws of motion. Then special relativity. A bit of calculus wouldn't hurt. THEN you can come and argue this stuff to your heart's content.

Ok so we've definitely established that the x and y axis are independent. Why doenst the target get moved out of the way? (because of the upward acceleration of the earth, I mean)
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 05:32:57 PM
Also, acceleration is definitely movement.

When you are accelerating, you are moving. Acceleration belongs to the set of movement.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: evergreatful on April 22, 2016, 05:36:45 PM
It is too bad that this conversation is unable to go anywhere as the person who posted it had a solid idea of what the result they wanted when they made their question, however as he does not get said answer he instead plays the contradiction game instead of engaging in an actual argument.

In Other words Don't feed the Troll unless you insist on being apart of a Monty Python Sketch.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Roundy on April 22, 2016, 05:42:24 PM
Sputnik, please at least read the Wikipedia page on the equivalence principle before trying to argue further.  We didn't say that the effect of constant acceleration would be exactly the same as the effect of gravity, Einstein did.  Any arguments you have with this particular aspect of our model, you have with him.  So I beg you to try to at least grasp the concept of the equivalence principle before posting again.  It's not a difficult concept, you only need to read the Wikipedia page to have a basic understanding of the concept.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 05:43:46 PM
It is too bad that this conversation is unable to go anywhere

Your post definitely moves things forward in a reasonable manner. Thank you for your valuable input to this thread.

Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Roundy on April 22, 2016, 05:45:15 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 05:48:22 PM
Ok so we've definitely established that the x and y axis are independent. Why doenst the target get moved out of the way? (because of the upward acceleration of the earth, I mean)

???

Also, acceleration is definitely movement.

When you are accelerating, you are moving. Acceleration belongs to the set of movement.

Speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed), Velocity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity), Acceleration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration).

In Other words Don't feed the Troll unless you insist on being apart of a Monty Python Sketch.

*cough*  Hanlon's Razor  (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor) *cough*
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 05:52:20 PM
Sputnik, please at least read the Wikipedia page on the equivalence principle before trying to argue further.  We didn't say that the effect of constant acceleration would be exactly the same as the effect of gravity, Einstein did.  Any arguments you have with this particular aspect of our model, you have with him.  So I beg you to try to at least grasp the concept of the equivalence principle before posting again.  It's not a difficult concept, you only need to read the Wikipedia page to have a basic understanding of the concept.

I'd much rather "speak" with people. I have the entire internet at my finger tips, I know how to use Google. I can look any of this stuff up, I know. If you dont want to participate, thats cool, dont. But dont tell me to 'stop being unproductive' if all youre going to post is unproductive stuff at me. You are in fact contributing less than I am. Participation in my threads is voluntary. In fact, you dont even have to open them. So if you're so bothered, just go away. Thats even easier than reading a wiki!!!

On the other hand, if its such an easy principle, I'd be more than happy to read your post if you want to explain it. But, please, if you are going to explain it, be a real person and explain it - dont just copy and paste it.

Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: evergreatful on April 22, 2016, 05:55:31 PM
At this point Sputnik you are debating with Three Round Earthers about this, we have no bias or objection to what you are trying to prove but by which you are trying to prove it, we do not debate the Theory the earth is round but how you came to that conclusion, on this site you really need to have a good grasp on science to debate against FE'ers, not because they respond well to it, but because every once and a while there is a FE'er who is very knowledgeable on the topic and will rip your "evidence" apart if your theories are not sound.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 05:57:21 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.

Acceleration is the change of velocity. Any object that is accelerating is moving. Acceleration is a type of movement.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 06:02:12 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.

Acceleration is the change of velocity. Any object that is accelerating is moving. Acceleration is a type of movement.

You can accelerate with zero velocity.

No one here wants to hold your hand through an entire course on kinematics. If you have the entire internet at your finger tips, then use it. Learn kinematics before trying to debate it. No, a cursory glance through wikipedia isn't enough. You need a thorough knowledge of it, including the ability to correctly answer a wide range of related practice problems. There is nothing more annoying than arrogant ignorance.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 06:02:20 PM
Look, guys, I'm not a smart guy - especially scientifically. I already know this. I'm using argument ("argument" if you wish) to explore ideas. This is only a sparring match to play with ideas.

Like I said, if you dont want to play then dont.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 06:04:43 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.

Acceleration is the change of velocity. Any object that is accelerating is moving. Acceleration is a type of movement.

You can accelerate with zero velocity.

No one here wants to hold your hand through an entire course on kinematics. If you have the entire internet at your finger tips, then use it. Learn kinematics before trying to debate it. No, a cursory glance through wikipedia isn't enough. You need a thorough knowledge of it, including the ability to correctly answer a wide range of related practice problems. There is nothing more annoying than arrogant ignorance.

Then dont, man. In fact, leave the thread altogether if you like. I'm not going to hold your hand and make you reply to me...

To accelerate from zero is to move from zero. I'm not talking about physics here, I'm talking about the English language....I think we can probably drop this bit.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on April 22, 2016, 06:11:44 PM
Look, guys, I'm not a smart guy - especially scientifically. I already know this. I'm using argument ("argument" if you wish) to explore ideas. This is only a sparring match to play with ideas.

Like I said, if you dont want to play then dont.

No one wants to spar, except you. There are no winners here. Either something is logically sound or its not.

Then you say you're not going to hold someone's hand to make them reply to you... but you are challenging them to hold your hand and explain complicated principles to you that from all appearances would be a total waste of time.

You need to go spar with a book.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on April 22, 2016, 06:14:44 PM
Look, guys, I'm not a smart guy - especially scientifically. I already know this. I'm using argument ("argument" if you wish) to explore ideas.

Debate/arguing is a great way to further your understanding of a subject that you already have a basic understanding of. It is NOT useful if you don't already have a basic understanding of the subject.

I repeat, go learn basic kinematics first, then basic Newtonian physics, then come back to debate the ideas.

Stupid people are welcome. Wilfully ignorant people are not. That's my policy, anyway.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 06:15:04 PM
Look, guys, I'm not a smart guy - especially scientifically. I already know this. I'm using argument ("argument" if you wish) to explore ideas. This is only a sparring match to play with ideas.

Like I said, if you dont want to play then dont.

No one wants to spar, except you. There are no winners here. Either something is logically sound or its not.

Then you say you're not going to hold someone's hand to make them reply to you... but you are challenging them to hold your hand and explain complicated principles to you that from all appearances would be a total waste of time.

You need to go spar with a book.

When you dont want to spar you'll quit. Apparently you're still game.

Dont be so quick to dismiss you ability to convince someone.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 06:17:13 PM
Look, guys, I'm not a smart guy - especially scientifically. I already know this. I'm using argument ("argument" if you wish) to explore ideas.

Debate/arguing is a great way to further your understanding of a subject that you already have a basic understanding of. It is NOT useful if you don't already have a basic understanding of the subject.

I repeat, go learn basic kinematics first, then basic Newtonian physics, then come back to debate the ideas.

Stupid people are welcome. Wilfully ignorant people are not. That's my policy, anyway.

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer to you...whats that thing you like to say about the willfully ignorant?

Just stop playing if you dont want to play.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 06:22:31 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.

You might be suggesting researching the difference between velocity and acceleration (both of which are kinds of movement).
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on April 22, 2016, 07:16:08 PM
Also, you might try googling the difference between movement and acceleration.  They are not the same thing.  You're really out of your element here if you're not willing to do some basic research.

You might be suggesting researching the difference between velocity and acceleration (both of which are kinds of movement).

They are not kinds of movement. They are measurements and descriptions of movement.

You seem to think this is a game to play, maybe you're taking pleasure in this for some weird reason. Pretending to be a willing pupil but to be constantly undermining your teacher is a disastrous way to learn anything.

Then you are under the impression that it's anyone's prerogative to teach or convince you of anything. This is your personal journey. You can be led to water, but me shoving your head in the water until the bubbles stop coming up is no way to quench your thirst.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Sputnik on April 22, 2016, 07:19:02 PM


They are not kinds of movement. They are measurements and descriptions of movement.


[/quote]

How can acceleration be a description of movement if its not movement? Why are you changing your definitions?
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on April 22, 2016, 07:49:25 PM

Quote
They are not kinds of movement. They are measurements and descriptions of movement.

How can acceleration be a description of movement if its not movement? Why are you changing your definitions?

Blue is the color of the sky, blue isn't the sky.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: juner on April 22, 2016, 07:52:04 PM

Ok so we've definitely established that the x and y axis are independent. Why doenst the target get moved out of the way? (because of the upward acceleration of the earth, I mean)

The target doesn't get moved out of the way because everything is accelerating in the same frame of reference.

The bullet, up until it leaves the barrel is accelerating along with you as well as the target. If you put the target at a far enough distance to where the bullet would hit the ground prior to reaching the target, then you can think of the target as "moving out of the way." If you shot "straight" at a target from a height of 2m and the bullet hypothetically travels 500m/s, then the bullet would hit the ground prior to reaching that target if said target was 400m away from you.

That was a bit of a confusing way to describe it, but it is the same thing that would happen in the round earth model.

I still can't tell if you're a troll, or genuinely curious, but I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to have deep knowledge of physics to partake here. Feel free to ask questions, but maybe adjust your attitude a bit. You come off way too cocky for someone who admits he doesn't know physics to a great degree.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: rabinoz on April 23, 2016, 05:39:40 AM
They are not kinds of movement. They are measurements and descriptions of movement.
How can acceleration be a description of movement if its not movement? Why are you changing your definitions?

If you have seen my posts you will note that I do not accept UA as valid for a number of reasons,

but apart from that UA does behave in an almost identical fashion to the way gravity would.
What you have to accept is that whatever accelerates the earth does not accelerate objects on the earth.

So, as I believe junker explained, while the bullet is supported by the barrel it is also being accelerated (connected to the earth via the gun and the shooter).
When the bullet leaves the barrel it is no longer being supported, so relative to the earth, it starts "falling".

So, from the point of view of us of the earth UA would act almost exactly like gravitation. I have objections, but that is a separate issue.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: thatsnice on April 28, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
This thread is actually kind of pleasant to read because both FE'ers and RE'ers get along. I'm a RE'er myself and reading through this made me cringe a little at the incorrect usage of both Acceleration and Velocity, two completely different measurements of movement. Sputnik, if you still don't understand why both bullets would hit the ground at the same time on both a globe and an FE, go ahead and respond, I'm willing to "spar", I suppose.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: Undecided on April 29, 2016, 08:17:53 PM
Assuming that gravity is real and not a hoax.

The bullet fired from a gun dead horizontal will hit the ground at the same time as one that is dropped from the same height.

The bullet just travels further while it's falling.

A sniper bullet may travel a mile or more away from you, but falls at the same rate as one that that is dropped.

Gravity does not discriminate as you go faster.
Title: Re: Gravity
Post by: rabinoz on May 01, 2016, 12:53:13 PM
Assuming that gravity is real and not a hoax.

The bullet fired from a gun dead horizontal will hit the ground at the same time as one that is dropped from the same height.

The bullet just travels further while it's falling.

A sniper bullet may travel a mile or more away from you, but falls at the same rate as one that that is dropped.

Gravity does not discriminate as you go faster.
Rearrange and
"The bullet just travels further while it's falling." Yes

"A sniper bullet may travel a mile or more away from you, but falls at the same rate as one that that is dropped." Yes
"Gravity does not discriminate as you go faster."  Yes
"The bullet fired from a gun dead horizontal will hit the ground at the same time as one that is dropped from the same height."  Not quite

The bullet fired dead horizontal would travel further as the curvature of the earth would mean it had a little further to fall. If it were possible to fire it east at the equator at over 7,432 m/s it would not hit the ground at all - two big problems though:
(1) No gun has that high a muzzle velocity - even the rail-gun is only about 2,520 m/s
(2) Air resistance would quickly slow it down (or melt it).

But the difference is very slight, so you are near enough to being correct.

Nice little reference if you are interested Long Range Shooting: External Ballistics – The Coriolis Effect (http://thearmsguide.com/5329/external-ballistics-the-coriolis-effect-6-theory-section/), goes into Coriolis and Eötvös Effects - but other than for long range artillery these are very slight (a few inches sideways for Coriolis or up or down for the Eötvös Effect at a mile range).

But,