The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: bavcol on February 04, 2016, 07:37:50 PM

Title: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 04, 2016, 07:37:50 PM
Hello everyone,

as a "round earther" i have to admit that the flat earth model with its theory of the sun hovering above the earths equator and around the north pole applies pretty good to what people experience in terms of daylength at the northern hemisphere.

But according to this model, shouldn't it be impossible that days can get longer than nights in the southern hemisphere? There are cities in South America, Africa and Australia as well, where the sun can be seen more than 14 hours a day in december. How is this possible?  ???

The flat earth model I am referring to:
http://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/70/SunAnimation.gif (http://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/70/SunAnimation.gif)
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Lonesome Crow on February 04, 2016, 10:55:32 PM
That model is a simple GIF merely designed to illustrate a concept. It doesn't accurately reflect the movements of the sun and the moon.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 04, 2016, 11:54:51 PM
Quote from: Lonesome Crow on February 04, 2016, 10:55:32 PM
That model is a simple GIF merely designed to illustrate a concept. It doesn't accurately reflect the movements of the sun and the moon.

For example in december, when the sun is rising in Chile, it can also be seen in Australia. At the same time it's night at the north pole. Where is the sun at this moment according to the flat earth model?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 02:10:12 AM
This is an often asked question that I haven't answered copy/pasted in awhile.

As the sun circles above the flat earth it moves closer and further from the North Pole.  This explains the six months of day and night in the north.  To explain the six months of days and nights on the rim is a bit more involved.  As the sun journeys north and south, it also rises and falls so slightly it's nearly imperceivable.  In the North, the sun is at its closest to earth and in the South it's at its furthest.  Now, to explain how the sun can be seen from all of the rim at one time, simply take a look into your coffee cup:
http://www.saltire.com/HTML5/HTML5%20apps/Light%20and%20Reflections/Caustic.html

Just as light reflects around the entire rim of your drink, so it does around the rim of the earth.  I believe it's the firmament itself that reflects this light but others attribute it to how the light waves interact with with aether or even the ice wall itself.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 03:27:22 AM
Quote from: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 02:10:12 AM
This is an often asked question that I haven't answered copy/pasted in awhile.

As the sun circles above the flat earth it moves closer and further from the North Pole.  This explains the six months of day and night in the north.  To explain the six months of days and nights on the rim is a bit more involved.  As the sun journeys north and south, it also rises and falls so slightly it's nearly imperceivable.  In the North, the sun is at its closest to earth and in the South it's at its furthest.  Now, to explain how the sun can be seen from all of the rim at one time, simply take a look into your coffee cup:
http://www.saltire.com/HTML5/HTML5%20apps/Light%20and%20Reflections/Caustic.html

Just as light reflects around the entire rim of your drink, so it does around the rim of the earth.  I believe it's the firmament itself that reflects this light but others attribute it to how the light waves interact with with aether or even the ice wall itself.

Eureka! Now I see how all the earth is illuminated all the time! Oh, wait, it isn't - not by a long shot.
We do get reflected light from around the horizon! We get very direct light and right now a lot of heat from the sun.

Do you ever travel to other parts of the earth (like the southern hemisphere) and see that the behaviour of the sun is exactly the same as in the Northern Hemisphere - except for a swap of North for South.

You are really going to tell us that there is a highly reflective barrier all around the earth! 
Why didn't all the polar explorers, including Amundsen and Scott who actually got the pole, reported this?
In fact they used sightings of the elevation of the sun itself to find their location!

In Brisbane, Australia on the summer equinox,
we quite definitely have the rising around ESE, and that's no reflection, that is the sun itself.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 03:43:56 AM
How do you know Amundsen and Scott made it to the South Pole? Did the people that tell you that the earth is round also tell you this?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 07:26:30 AM
Quote from: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 03:43:56 AM
How do you know Amundsen and Scott made it to the South Pole? Did the people that tell you that the earth is round also tell you this?
You do have a little evidence to the contrary!
And yes I have read Amundsen's and Scott's reports.  Sure, like everyone they could be lying too - even you!

Of course the deception to hide the earth's shape started when?
Must have been well before old Ptolemy's time and must have been in the Islamic world where modern geodetic is said to have started!
Quote
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Al-Biruni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Al-Biruni)
Al-Biruni
Of the medieval Persian Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048) it is said:
"Important contributions to geodesy and geography were also made by Biruni. He introduced techniques to measure the earth and distances on it using triangulation. He found the radius of the earth to be 6339.6 km, a value not obtained in the West until the 16th century. His Masudic canon contains a table giving the coordinates of six hundred places, almost all of which he had direct knowledge."
Yes, I know it's from that terrible Wikipedia!

And all the people actually visiting the South Pole are lying too.
By the way! If there really is no South Pole, and a big ice wall (that nobody has really seen - yes, I know Ross' reports of massive 50 m cliffs - er icebergs!)
why is there a Bi-Polar map in the Wiki and why is Tom Bishop "pushing" it? Hedging your bets I think it's called!
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 05, 2016, 07:42:22 AM
Pongo is right to question whether Scott and Amundsen truly visited the pole. The magnetic field lines are vertical in Antarctica and the compass does not work in that area.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 05, 2016, 07:42:22 AM
Pongo is right to question whether Scott and Amundsen truly visited the pole. The magnetic field lines are vertical in Antarctica and the compass does not work in that area.
The magnetic field lines might be vertical right over the south magnetic pole, but not everywhere in Antarctica.

But you seem to have an obsession with the magnetic compass. They may have used one the early in the expedition,
but they had available an excellent natural compass! 
All they needed was the sun and and an accurate clock, and they had a 24 hour sun!

Of course the final pole location was performed using sun altitude measurements.
The description of this process makes fascinating reading in Amundsen's report.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 05, 2016, 12:47:23 PM
I don't want this thread to get distracted by theories about the south pole. To get back to the topic I want to raise some questions for Pongo.

Quote from: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 02:10:12 AM
Now, to explain how the sun can be seen from all of the rim at one time, simply take a look into your coffee cup:
http://www.saltire.com/HTML5/HTML5%20apps/Light%20and%20Reflections/Caustic.html

Just as light reflects around the entire rim of your drink, so it does around the rim of the earth.  I believe it's the firmament itself that reflects this light but others attribute it to how the light waves interact with with aether or even the ice wall itself.

In your coffee cup example the lightsource is placed outside of the coffee cup/flat earth. The flat earth society claims in their wiki that the lightsource/sun is hovering above the coffee cup/earth. This doesn't make sense to me.

Furthermore I am a bit confused  by the path the light of the sun takes in order to get to South America and Australia in the december. The path it has to take when beeing reflected by the rim at the "south pole wall" in order to get to South America/Australia is quite longer than the direct path to these destinations. According to the theory of the flat earth society the light of the sun can only travel a certain distance until it can't be seen anymore. The sunlight that is reflected at the rim shouldn't be seen at all because it is traveling longer than the sunlight directly pointing to these destinations and significantly longer than the sunlight directly pointing to the north pole (where the sun can't be seen at all in december). To get my point it may look at my attached illustration.

Or is there something I didn't understand about "the rim"?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 05, 2016, 12:47:23 PM
I don't want this thread to get distracted by theories about the south pole. To get back to the topic I want to raise some questions for Pongo.

Quote from: Pongo on February 05, 2016, 02:10:12 AM
Now, to explain how the sun can be seen from all of the rim at one time, simply take a look into your coffee cup:
http://www.saltire.com/HTML5/HTML5%20apps/Light%20and%20Reflections/Caustic.html

Just as light reflects around the entire rim of your drink, so it does around the rim of the earth.  I believe it's the firmament itself that reflects this light but others attribute it to how the light waves interact with with aether or even the ice wall itself.

In your coffee cup example the lightsource is placed outside of the coffee cup/flat earth. The flat earth society claims in their wiki that the lightsource/sun is hovering above the coffee cup/earth. This doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, the example isn't perfect. I didn't create the demonstration, I just found it when searching "caustic lighting". Ideally, if the circle was larger, you would be able to better see the effect.

Quote from: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 07:26:30 AM
Of course the deception to hide the earth's shape started when?
Must have been well before old Ptolemy's time and must have been in the Islamic world where modern geodetic is said to have started!

If I had a teacher that told me that an atom looks like a mini-solar system (neutrons and protons at the center orbited by electrons), he or she need not be a part a some grand conspiracy ranging back to the days of Antiquity; a conspiracy and cover-up layered in contrivances and prepared deceptions. He or she could simply be wrong.

Every time someone says that the world is round, it's not a telling sign that they are a card-carrying member of a conspiracy that has loomed over all of science and discovery since the dawn of time. It's much, much more likely that they are simply wrong.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 05, 2016, 03:02:04 PM
Yeah, but again Pongo: Why can't the sun be seen directly, but only the reflections of the sun? The reflections have to travel significantly longer.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 06, 2016, 01:18:22 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 10:11:48 AM
The magnetic field lines might be vertical right over the south magnetic pole, but not everywhere in Antarctica.

Yes, the field lines are vertical everywhere in Antarctica. There is only a strip of land where the compass even works.

From your RE model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Geodynamo_Between_Reversals.gif)

When you are in Antarcitca the magnetic compass needle attempts to align with the field lines and points down into the ground of its tray.

Quote
But you seem to have an obsession with the magnetic compass. They may have used one the early in the expedition,
but they had available an excellent natural compass! 
All they needed was the sun and and an accurate clock, and they had a 24 hour sun!

Of course the final pole location was performed using sun altitude measurements.
The description of this process makes fascinating reading in Amundsen's report.

So the only way they actually knew they were at the South Pole was by looking at the sun and assuming that they were on a Round Earth. Got it.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 06, 2016, 11:57:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 06, 2016, 01:18:22 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 05, 2016, 10:11:48 AM
The magnetic field lines might be vertical right over the south magnetic pole, but not everywhere in Antarctica.
Yes, the field lines are vertical everywhere in Antarctica. There is only a strip of land where the compass even works.

When you are in Antarcitca the magnetic compass needle attempts to align with the field lines and points down into the ground of its tray.

From your RE model:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Geodynamo_Between_Reversals.gif)

Why do you choose a computer simulation of the field lies, and not give actual measurements? Yes, I know the answer to that - you like so many others choose to make the Globe model seem as ridiculous as possible.
Had you given actual figures you would have found that, while the inclination is very high[/b] and declinations very variable the magnetic is still a valuable navigation tool over much of Antarctica.
You really should take a look at : http://www.usap.gov/travelAndDeployment/documents/FieldManual-Chapt21AntarcticNavigation.pdf (http://www.usap.gov/travelAndDeployment/documents/FieldManual-Chapt21AntarcticNavigation.pdf), where it says:
Quote
21.2 Magnetic Compasses
Magnetic compasses must be modified for use in polar latitudes by reweighting the needle. As the compass gets closer to the South Pole, the south-seeking end of the needle is pulled downward toward the earth and will drag on its enclosure unless the proper nonmagnetic counterweight (copper wire) is added to the northseeking
end.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Field parties may elect to travel by using a Grid North system (see the “Grid North” section), versus a magnetic or truenorth(1) system.
from: https://earthref.org/ERESE/projects/GOLF182/reports/report-compass-confusion.htm (https://earthref.org/ERESE/projects/GOLF182/reports/report-compass-confusion.htm)
The following is from McMurdo Station, which is an extreme case, being relative close to the South Magnetic Pole.
Quote
South magnetic pole    -64.5°N, 137.8°E
Our location at the station    -77.8°N, 166.6°E
Declination at McMurdo    About 144 degrees
Inclination at McMurdoAbout -81 degrees
Declination
Declination is the angle between true north and the magnetic north at any given point on the globe. . . . . . . .  Here at McMurdo Station, we are located north of the geographic pole, but south of the magnetic pole! Our compass needles (before being corrected for the 144 degree declination) point to the south!

Inclination
Magnetic field lines near the equator point more or less horizontal, but by definition, magnetic field lines at the South Pole point vertical up (and vertical down at the North Pole).  . . . . . . . . . .  if we were to use that same compass in Antarctica, the north end of the compass needle becomes pinned up against the glass faceplate! This vertical component of the magnetic field is known as 'inclination'. Thankfully, the Berg Field Center at McMurdo Station supplies us with compasses that are specially weighted to offset this effect, that equates about -81 degrees.

Location of McMurdo Station
(https://earthref.org/images/ERESE/projects/GOLF182/general/antarctica.jpg)
Quote from: rabinoz
But you seem to have an obsession with the magnetic compass. They may have used one the early in the expedition,
but they had available an excellent natural compass! 
All they needed was the sun and and an accurate clock, and they had a 24 hour sun!
Of course the final pole location was performed using sun altitude measurements.
The description of this process makes fascinating reading in Amundsen's report.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
So the only way they actually knew they were at the South Pole was by looking at the sun and assuming that they were on a Round Earth. Got it.
Well yes I got that long ago - took you a while(2)! But please tell me just how navigators from "time immemorial" have navigated the ocean!
The Vikings used the sun, and were reported to have been able to get a reasonable fix in even heavy overcast.
The early South Sea Islanders used the sun and stars (and clouds, birds, etc).
Captain and the earlier seafarers used the sun and stars (Celestial Navigation), though before the development of the Marine Chronometer Longitude was difficult to ascertain accurately! Look at all the early Spanish and Dutch wrecks on the Australian west coast, when the sailing directions from the Cape of Good hope were something like "Sail east for ??? days, then take a hard left!".

Yes, whatever the shape of the earth there is a sun that shines very predictably on Antarctica and the South Pole.


(1) TrueNorth on the Antarctica grid system is defined as the 0° Longitude Line through Greenwich

(2) If you don't see a need to admit to a South Pole, just why are you pushing the Bi-Polar Map, with its Celestial Gears.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the northpole?

And please stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole, you can open another thread to argue these issues.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Thork on February 08, 2016, 05:58:36 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia

Why are you so sure you can? They are on opposite sides of the earth on a round earth too. The charts seem to suggest you made up that you can see the sun in both places at once.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/e8pk5l.png)

How do you know you can see the sun in both places at once? Have you tested it yourself, or were you told that?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Panzerfaust on February 08, 2016, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: Dr David Thork on February 08, 2016, 05:58:36 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia

Why are you so sure you can? They are on opposite sides of the earth on a round earth too. The charts seem to suggest you made up that you can see the sun in both places at once.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/e8pk5l.png)

How do you know you can see the sun in both places at once? Have you tested it yourself, or were you told that?

I think it was a fair question bavcol asked, and I'd like to know how this works as well. In about 2 hours from now they can see 'a sun' in both Adelaide, Australia and Rio Grande Argentina. But who said that there is only one sun? Maybe we can assume that it's a two sun system (or maybe even more)?

http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/australia/adelaide
http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/argentina/rio-grande

Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 09, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the north pole?
And please stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole, you can open another thread to argue these issues.
Why stop with "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"
Why not "How can the sun be seen 24 hours a day at both the North Pole and the South Pole on the same date?"
No problem, it happens for a few days around every equinox! At the equinoxes the sun just skirts a little above the horizon all day at both poles.
I do believe that "timeanddate.com" is so widely used that anyone seriously questioning its accuracy would be scorned.

As for "Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?", probably, but
they will completely ignore it,
claim that there are really two suns (  ::) with exactly the same sunspots patterns? ::))
claim we are lying or
simply "prove it"!
Take a look at this day/night diagram:
Day and Night World Map
The map below shows the current position of the Sun and the Moon.
It shows which parts of the Earth are in daylight and which are in night.
(http://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/sunmap.php?iso=20160321T1200)
UTC time = Monday, 21 March 2016 at 12:00:00 Noon.
South Pole local time = Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 1:00:00 AM.
From: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html)
BTW
You complain "stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole".
Last I heard the south pole was in the southern hemisphere and the thread is: "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Panzerfaust on February 09, 2016, 07:55:50 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 09, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the north pole?
And please stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole, you can open another thread to argue these issues.
Why stop with "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"
Why not "How can the sun be seen 24 hours a day at both the North Pole and the South Pole on the same date?"
No problem, it happens for a few days around every equinox! At the equinoxes the sun just skirts a little above the horizon all day at both poles.
I do believe that "timeanddate.com" is so widely used that anyone seriously questioning its accuracy would be scorned.

As for "Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?", probably, but
they will completely ignore it,
claim that there are really two suns (  ::) with exactly the same sunspots patterns? ::))
claim we are lying or
simply "prove it"!
Take a look at this day/night diagram:
Day and Night World Map
The map below shows the current position of the Sun and the Moon.
It shows which parts of the Earth are in daylight and which are in night.
(http://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/sunmap.php?iso=20160321T1200)
UTC time = Monday, 21 March 2016 at 12:00:00 Noon.
South Pole local time = Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 1:00:00 AM.
From: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html)
BTW
You complain "stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole".
Last I heard the south pole was in the southern hemisphere and the thread is: "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"

Sorry bavcol and rabinoz,

I didn’t mean to derail the thread, but I thought the topic about “Sun in Rio Grande – dark in Europe – Sun in Adelaide – all at the same time” was relevant for the discussion.

I came here to seek independent information about the nature of our World, since I certainly don’t believe governmental institutions are independent.  So thanks to TFES for setting up the site!

However, I have been very disappointed with the quality level of the answers being posted here. I’m starting to doubt the independency and integrity of TFES. You are putting all freethinkers, like the 9/11 truthers, in an extremely bad light. Very convenient for the US government..


Can TFES proof that you’re not just paid by the US government as an excuse to put all other freethinkers in the same nutcase basket as TFES? Are you professional trolls?

And now back to the question about how we can see the sun in South America and Australia (but not in Europe) at the same time? I would like to understand this better.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Woody on February 09, 2016, 08:30:16 AM
Quote from: Panzerfaust on February 09, 2016, 07:55:50 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 09, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the north pole?
And please stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole, you can open another thread to argue these issues.
Why stop with "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"
Why not "How can the sun be seen 24 hours a day at both the North Pole and the South Pole on the same date?"
No problem, it happens for a few days around every equinox! At the equinoxes the sun just skirts a little above the horizon all day at both poles.
I do believe that "timeanddate.com" is so widely used that anyone seriously questioning its accuracy would be scorned.

As for "Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?", probably, but
they will completely ignore it,
claim that there are really two suns (  ::) with exactly the same sunspots patterns? ::))
claim we are lying or
simply "prove it"!
Take a look at this day/night diagram:
Day and Night World Map
The map below shows the current position of the Sun and the Moon.
It shows which parts of the Earth are in daylight and which are in night.
(http://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/sunmap.php?iso=20160321T1200)
UTC time = Monday, 21 March 2016 at 12:00:00 Noon.
South Pole local time = Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 1:00:00 AM.
From: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html)
BTW
You complain "stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole".
Last I heard the south pole was in the southern hemisphere and the thread is: "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"

Sorry bavcol and rabinoz,

I didn’t mean to derail the thread, but I thought the topic about “Sun in Rio Grande – dark in Europe – Sun in Adelaide – all at the same time” was relevant for the discussion.

I came here to seek independent information about the nature of our World, since I certainly don’t believe governmental institutions are independent.  So thanks to TFES for setting up the site!

However, I have been very disappointed with the quality level of the answers being posted here. I’m starting to doubt the independency and integrity of TFES. You are putting all freethinkers, like the 9/11 truthers, in an extremely bad light. Very convenient for the US government..

  • Why is it that nobody from TFES exists in real life? All other truthers proudly stand behind their thinking.
    Who are sponsoring your activities?
    Why did Obama make ‘free commercial’ for TFES? Would have been more logical for him to just ignore you!?
    Why do you avoid reflecting on obvious observations and questions like the ones in this thread? Seems to me like you’re just working from a pre-made manuscript, and are not distracted by any input/insights/observations. Seems like it can’t be goofy enough.

Can TFES proof that you’re not just paid by the US government as an excuse to put all other freethinkers in the same nutcase basket as TFES? Are you professional trolls?

And now back to the question about how we can see the sun in South America and Australia (but not in Europe) at the same time? I would like to understand this better.

What I find odd is I can find evidence that they maybe misleading people intentionally, yet claim NASA and other space agencies are a conspiracy. 
It took me around 20 minutes of checking to find things they prominently display on their wiki being false or misleading.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=4520.0

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=4497.0

What I covered in those threads is the only information I was able to find so far I could verify. Everything else lacked enough information to check out for myself.

I do not really think it is intentional or they are guilty of what you suspect.  I personally think it is just a result of confirmation bias, selective ignorance and what ever drives them to have the need for the Earth to be flat.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 09, 2016, 10:07:30 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 09, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
You complain "stop messing this thread up with discussions about the south pole".
Last I heard the south pole was in the southern hemisphere and the thread is: "How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?"

No offense, I was referring to the upcoming discussions about Scott and Amundsen, the magnetic field lines, etc.
For the sake of the qualitiy of this thread I suggest to stick to the topic of day, night and daylength as it can be observed at different places around the earth and how this is (or is not) compatible to the Flat Earth model.

Quote from: Dr David Thork on February 08, 2016, 05:58:36 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia

Why are you so sure you can? They are on opposite sides of the earth on a round earth too. The charts seem to suggest you made up that you can see the sun in both places at once.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/e8pk5l.png)

How do you know you can see the sun in both places at once? Have you tested it yourself, or were you told that?

The sun can be seen at Australia and South America at the same time because of the axial tilt of the globe.

Unfortunately I am not able to be at both of those places at once, therefore testing it by myself seems quite impossible for me...
Fortunately we live in the 21st century and we can do something called research, in order to gather information we can't test ourselfes. Please notice that doing research is completely different from "beeing told" something.

First of all, my example takes place at every day from a few weeks before the 22 December till a few weeks after, every year, at 09:00:00 (UTC time). 
timeanddate.com provides a interactive woldmap with which you can observe, where on the world it is day and where it is night for every moment you can think of: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html)

timeanddate.com is a private company. Providing false data (especially predictions of day and night) would soon be noticed by the user community and they would use other websites, which provide the correct data. Users are money and a lack of users is a lack of money. timeanddate.com would vanish. Because this didn't happen I am quite convinced that timeanddate.com provides correct data.

I went even further: I validated the correctness of the map by myself, by observing several webcams all over the world (http://www.earthcam.com/ (http://www.earthcam.com/)), and I encourage you to do so as well. I was not able to detect any deviation between the day/night prediction of the map, and the daytime, seen in the webcams. Another reason, why the maps, provided by timeanddate.com seem valid to me.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 10, 2016, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: Dr David Thork on February 08, 2016, 05:58:36 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia
Why are you so sure you can? They are on opposite sides of the earth on a round earth too. The charts seem to suggest you made up that you can see the sun in both places at once.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/e8pk5l.png)
How do you know you can see the sun in both places at once? Have you tested it yourself, or were you told that?
The site (http://www.gaisma.com (http://www.gaisma.com)) seems to have no way to show the day-night map for some date other than today.
The site http://www.timeanddate.com/ (http://www.timeanddate.com/) allows other dates. I have selected UTC 12:00:00 Monday, 21 March 2016. The sun can be seen overhead on the Equator at 0°E, 0°N.

The day-night map on the right shows that the sun will be visible all day at both poles on the March Equinox.
The same happens on the September Equinox.

At both of these times, right at the poles the sun just skirts the horizon.

Yes, you will ask, "Have I seen it?", No! I haven't.
But, I might well ask numerous questions about the Flat Earth Hypothesis and the answers found in the Wiki.
I doubt that you have personally observed many of these things apart from "The Earth looks flat".

Yes, we all in the end rely on the observations of others. In the case of both of these "Day, night" sites, they are used so widely by users all over the earth that I honestly think that we would have heard the outcry by now.
I will admit that the we probably find only Polar Bears at the North Pole most of the time, so they might not notice!

Take a look at this day/night diagram:
Day and Night World Map
(http://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/sunmap.php?iso=20160321T1200)
UTC time = Monday, 21 March 2016 at 12:00:00 Noon.
South Pole local time = Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 1:00:00 AM.
From: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html)
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: bavcol on February 12, 2016, 09:02:47 AM
The question remains  ;)

Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the northpole?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Panzerfaust on February 12, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 12, 2016, 09:02:47 AM
The question remains  ;)

Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the northpole?

I have to insist that a 'two sun model' is the ONLY explanation for how you can have daylight in South America and Australia and night in Europe at the same time. We have trillions of suns in the universe, so why is it so strange to imagine 2 suns orbiting our earth? I haven't seen any objection or explanations from other flat earthers.
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 12, 2016, 11:25:06 PM
Quote from: Panzerfaust on February 12, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 12, 2016, 09:02:47 AM
The question remains  ;)

Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the northpole?
I have to insist that a 'two sun model' is the ONLY explanation for how you can have daylight in South America and Australia and night in Europe at the same time. We have trillions of suns in the universe, so why is it so strange to imagine 2 suns orbiting our earth? I haven't seen any objection or explanations from other flat earthers.
I suppose that of these suns have exactly the same sun-spots etc? Seems a bit unlikely.

I know, I have a simpler explanation! The earth is really a globe that rotates! Think this idea might catch on?
Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: Panzerfaust on February 15, 2016, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on February 12, 2016, 11:25:06 PM
Quote from: Panzerfaust on February 12, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: bavcol on February 12, 2016, 09:02:47 AM
The question remains  ;)

Quote from: bavcol on February 08, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
So... Can I assume that I just debunked the flat earth theory?  :D
Is nobody here able to properly explain to me how it is possible on a flat earth to see the sun in South America and Australia while, at the same time, it is night at the northpole?
I have to insist that a 'two sun model' is the ONLY explanation for how you can have daylight in South America and Australia and night in Europe at the same time. We have trillions of suns in the universe, so why is it so strange to imagine 2 suns orbiting our earth? I haven't seen any objection or explanations from other flat earthers.
I suppose that of these suns have exactly the same sun-spots etc? Seems a bit unlikely.

I know, I have a simpler explanation! The earth is really a globe that rotates! Think this idea might catch on?

I have no other explanations, and it looks like my FET supporters are busy discussing their private megalomaniacal interests. And it's not small things they have on their plate! In their own words they have (quote): 'Found the cure for cancer', 'doing Gods work', redefined pi, concluded that nobody ever climbed high mountains, and much more.. .

I would even forgive their stupid avatar names if they could just get the discussion back on track. It's almost like they want to put free thinkers in a bad light.

Title: Re: How can the sun be seen more than 12 hours a day in the southern hemisphere?
Post by: rabinoz on February 15, 2016, 11:09:34 PM
Quote from: Panzerfaust on February 15, 2016, 09:05:55 PM
I have no other explanations, and it looks like my FET supporters are busy discussing their private megalomaniacal interests. And it's not small things they have on their plate! In their own words they have (quote): 'Found the cure for cancer', 'doing Gods work', redefined pi, concluded that nobody ever climbed high mountains, and much more.. .

I would even forgive their stupid avatar names if they could just get the discussion back on track. It's almost like they want to put free thinkers in a bad light.
It is telling that so many threads end with a globe supporter posting something the FE supporters find hard to answer simply stop. Suddenly all goes quiet. I suppose I don't blame them in the case of my posts, I probably put everybody to sleep, but surely that is not the case with all these "graveyarded" threads!