The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: markjo on April 28, 2015, 01:50:23 AM

Title: Baltimore riots
Post by: markjo on April 28, 2015, 01:50:23 AM
*sigh*  It seems that yet another "peaceful" protest has gone horribly wrong.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-university-of-baltimore-closes-amid-high-school-purge-threat-20150427-story.html#page=1
Title: Riot in Baltimore
Post by: Rushy on April 28, 2015, 03:35:22 AM
Shamelessly stolen from Reddit:

Quote
6:20 PM local: State Emergency management has been activated. 3 hours have elapsed since inception of the violence.

Gov. Hogan: National Guard On Alert. Confirms earlier reports from 2 hours ago.

**** 6:30 PM local

CVS now on Fire! Riot control moving in en mass. Very Hot fire. Total loss.

Baltimore Fire Scanner very active: Now confirmed on scene after PD presence arrives. protester not leaving the area.

CVS closed all other stores in the area.

Outbreaks expected at Stadium and Downtown. Sheriff's office seems to be covering this area. Local PD is working the local neighborhoods.

Dispatcher states on scanner: "we have depleted our resources here"

Commanding officer says over radio to officers: "Move in, do what you have to do to stay safe"

Additional fire crews arrive at CVS. Combatants are beginning slightly to disperse. Mostly due to smoke.

6:45 PM. Woman attacked by demonstrators. As people pull her to safety they attack again. At Fulton, 2 blks south of Pennsylvania. Had to bring in PeaceKeeper Armored vehicle to rescue her. Condition unknown.

She was pulled from a vehicle by rioters.

North and Fulton is going to hell. WBAL live feed keeps cutting out to censor reality. Trying to follow on Tactical Channels but too much chatter. Will do my best to keep you up to date.

Not good... Local media is at loss for word and voices are cracking. Something bad just happened. perhaps the woman who was beaten? I try not to editorialize, but....sheeeze.

TV channel won't film or discuss what is happening in this area from the air or ground.

6:55 PM local:

I don't like what I just heard over the scanner.

Militant Rioters and Militant activist organization and militant religious members just got what they wanted. Fuck you, you fucking bastards!

Taking a mental break. Back soon.

Back. Sorry for the outburst:

Governor has activated National Guard in light of recent events. See above.

Media is calling on all the pastors and black community to de-escalate. Anything to not show video footage. Still not showing coverage at North and Fulton. Radios were quite for a short period of time.

Beauty Fair looted.

8:30 Press conference w/ Governor

National Guard front team in tactical gear arrived at ?? Harbor. They are loaded down heavy, ammo, camelbaks, MRE's and ready to stay. M4A1's or M-16 rifles and large packs.

7.15 PM Local

Crowd control tactics and Use of force now authorized.

Large Nation of Islam Presence near North Ave and Pennsylvania.

7.30 PM local:

Scanner chatter has gone pretty quite. Probably switched to tactical and inter-department channels that I don't have access to.

Media is reporting anything but what is happening on the street in real time. or perhaps they are having the same scanner info gathering problem I'm having.

Six "juveniles" accused by police of BEATING HOMELESS PERSON. 2 arrested.

MonDawMin mall being looted. Backing their cars up to the front door and loading crap. No police presence, free for all. (Personal Commentary: Remininent to LA Riots. I'm taking bets on when the fire starts)

*****UPDATE: Looters of liquor store knocked store owner unconscious.

Two more cars on fire at North Ave.

Something BIG happening at 2500 Pennsylvania for a "Single 13"

"BFD en route?"

Google brings up: Baltimore City Department of Social Services, Family Support Services

On fire.

Dispatch: "No FD trucks available".

Unknown Officer: "10-4, all we can do is sit and watch it then"

Another Redditor has reported that Rioters are cutting fire hoses so the FD can not fight fires. Unconfirmed.

County schools closed thru Sun. May 3rd.

University College now closed.

CVS continues tho be looted. Zero police presence. 30-minutes in.

Firefighter under attack. Retreated. Car continues to burn.

Baltimore county on the way.

Howard County on scene.

Pastor jamal speaking for Family member is calling for calm and peace. he is frustrated in the actions. Said to was "supposed to be tomorrow".

Utah and Franklin near Howard and "the market" is hot spot.

Rumored that individuals are using mass transit to get downtown. Buckle up!

Mayor has issued a curfew starting TOMORROW AT 10 PM!!!!

STARTS TOMORROW!

Local BPD is "totally deployed". Overwhelmed.

+++++++++++ 15 OFFICER INJURED SO FOR. 2 STILL IN HOSPITAL.

City Councilman says "media is focusing on the negative". "Media needs to make to clear" "Opportunists are coming from out of town"

+++++++++++++++

Councilman Scott "I'm pissed off!" "Cowards are ruining our city." " I'm going out there after this meeting" "Healing to do" "Take control"

Multiple references to 1968 riots.

Mayor is "proud of the people of the community that have come out"

15 OFFICERS INJURED. 2 STILL IN HOSPITAL.

Mall is now under police control.

NEMA waiting for Governor to speak at 8.30 PM with National Guard. 4,000 TROOPS COMING.

30,00 turned away from ball game do to safety concerns.

State of Emergency Declared. Curfew in effect TOMORROW.

Sky FULL of helicopters.

Stepped away for dinner. Back.

9.27 PM Massive fire at senior citizen apartment that was under construction. BFD is battling 4 different structure fires. Wind conditions are not wor

king in their favor. Also fighting 1 car fire.

3 alarm fire. All buildings are a total loss including their contents.

A local pastor has stated that the $16 million senior house was being built by a local church for local residents.

9.40 PM

City has requested 5,000 federal troops. Also requested additional Fire Squads from adjoining cities. BFD overwhelmed.

Governor: "Glad that Mayor finally called"..."We tried unsuccessfully to contact the Mayor"

UPDATE: Crips, Bloods and Black Guerrilla Family street gangs are currently meeting with Pastors and Clergy.

A church is now set on fire! Unknown location.

Intel warning: Gang attacks on white cops might spread...

no word from Obama or Lynch.

update:

CNN: Baltimore Rioters Threatening ‘Anybody… Who Was Not African-American’ [CNN CLAIMS TO HAVE VIDEO]

9.52 PM Local

Most streets are beginning to calm.

Unnamed police source: "The rioters are resting and eating diner..." "...expect further escalation as night sets in".

Police state they are relying on licence plates and video for future investigation and prosecution.

King: My Uncle MLK JR Would 'Be Heartbroken'...

Media helicopters seem to have stood down.

Streets are beginning to settle down.

Fires continue to burn.
10:18 Local TIme: WBAL just bloopered the words "The gunshots and"

no further intel yet.

Scanner reports of looting at Broadway and ??? street.

Crowds shouting "Black Power" on Pennsylvania Ave.

Scanner channels still very quite. May be using secure tactical channels.

John Hopkins University: "Remain sheltered in place".

Looting on Boston Street. Bar and Grill looted.

Burning Senior housing unit has collapsed. Embers have ignited several homes nearby. BFD says "INTENTIONAL".

Abandoned warehouse on fire.

WJZ 13 reports "Trail of destruction"

10:30 PM Local

TEN other Fire Companies arriving from neighboring towns/counties.

Police chase at Belvedere and York is over. Suspect 90 MPH. Car wrecked, hit pole. Suspect bailed. Foot pursuit.

Extensive damage.

11 pm tonight Family will be speaking.

Local Gov't to have press conference.

Yet another vehicle fire at Fulton and North Ave.

Aquarium events cancelled for tomorrow.

10:40 PM Local

Police briefing update at 11 PM local time.

Man seen walking north on Broadway with a gun.

Title: Re: Riot in Baltimore
Post by: Saddam Hussein on April 28, 2015, 04:00:53 AM
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2733.0

In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Blanko on April 28, 2015, 04:11:38 AM
Merged.
Title: Re: Riot in Baltimore
Post by: Lord Dave on April 28, 2015, 09:08:23 AM
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2733.0

In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.
Agreed.  They are a disgrace to America and Humanity.  They do not deserve to live.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 28, 2015, 04:13:37 PM
I picked a good time to want to be a cop.
Title: Re: Riot in Baltimore
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 28, 2015, 05:32:12 PM
In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.
B-but racism :(

Also, Salon.com is on the case:

(http://i.imgur.com/134x6eT.png)

And (a copy of) the article linked in the tweet: https://archive.is/l3amc
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on April 28, 2015, 06:25:56 PM
That's actually a cross-post from a kooky blog (https://radfag.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/in-support-of-baltimore-or-smashing-police-cars-is-logical-political-strategy/), rather than Salon's official editorial position or whatever, but they still shouldn't be giving nuts a bigger platform like this.  They got a lot of criticism when they published a goofy piece from an anti-vaxxer some years ago and eventually removed it.  Hopefully they'll do the same thing here.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 28, 2015, 06:32:29 PM
That's actually a cross-post from a kooky blog (https://radfag.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/in-support-of-baltimore-or-smashing-police-cars-is-logical-political-strategy/), rather than Salon's official editorial position or whatever, but they still shouldn't be giving nuts a bigger platform like this.
Thanks for the source. However, I would argue that anything published on their platform becomes their official stance unless they explicitly state otherwise. This appears to be common practice in other media.

Also:

Quote
Black power, Queer power, power to Baltimore, and to all oppressed people who know what time it is.
It's 19:32. Fuck yeah.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 12:42:44 AM
In a shocking turn of events, when you get a bunch of angry people together rioting happens.

But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part. I can't imagine any good coming out of a continuing series of random, leaderless protests that turn violent as soon as some idiot shows up with a molotov cocktail. This isn't gonna be the last or biggest riot over police brutality and racism in the near future.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on April 29, 2015, 12:46:05 AM
One totally bizarre result from the unrest in Baltimore is that the White Sox and Orioles will play a game tomorrow that is closed to the public.  Visual metaphor for the hollowness of the American Dream anyone?  Who's with me?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 12:56:23 AM
But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part.
And, hopefully, such a leader could convince them that there isn't a big bad white conspiracy out there to get them. Perhaps then they can focus on education and becoming productive members of society, eventually dispelling any myths that may haunt them today.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 01:05:13 AM
But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part.
And, hopefully, such a leader could convince them that there isn't a big bad white conspiracy out there to get them. Perhaps then they can focus on education and becoming productive members of society, eventually dispelling any myths that may haunt them today.

Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 01:41:56 AM
Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
My God, I hope the liberal arts college effect will slowly dissipate after you're done studying, as it does with most people. You've become insufferable.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 02:07:40 AM
Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
My God, I hope the liberal arts college effect will slowly dissipate after you're done studying, as it does with most people. You've become insufferable.

We have different opinions. It's not that big a deal. But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 02:10:02 AM
But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
I do agree. To quote IRC:

<Blanko> MLK wouldn't be listened to in the modern day
<Blanko> He wouldn't be progressive enough
<pizaaplanet> Yeah, I honestly don't think a single figurehead could do anything about this
<Blanko> Expecting blacks to be respectable members of society is too much to ask nowadays
<pizaaplanet> We need progressives to stop inciting their violence
<Shawn> MLK was the most influential person in American black history
<Blanko> Yes
<Blanko> And now all of his work is being undone by liberals
<Shawn> Liberals are all about social justice
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 02:40:01 AM
But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
I do agree. To quote IRC:

<Blanko> MLK wouldn't be listened to in the modern day
<Blanko> He wouldn't be progressive enough
<pizaaplanet> Yeah, I honestly don't think a single figurehead could do anything about this
<Blanko> Expecting blacks to be respectable members of society is too much to ask nowadays
<pizaaplanet> We need progressives to stop inciting their violence

So if I'm reading this right, you're basically making Booker T. Washington's argument that blacks can only achieve true equality with whites by earning it, right?

I can get behind that, to some extent. But my issue with it is that not much happened during Washington's time. It was only when Du Bois took over and the black rights movement became more militant that change started happening. It might be true that without the progress Washington made Du Bois and the NAACP never would have been successful, but I really don't think Washington's perspective alone is enough to change anything.

Here's the way I think about race issues. At this point, it's more socio-economic than anything else. I'm sure we can all agree on that. There are large clusters of impoverished people in America, and those clusters are largely african american just because that's how it's always been. Kids in the inner cities are given worse educations and end up with learned helplessness, which (among various other factors) contributes to a self-perpetuating system of racial inequality. I think we agree on that bit (I hope we do, because as far as I can tell the only other explanations are 'secret conspiracy of world-controlling racists' and 'blacks are just inherently inferior', both of which are silly arguments).

Obviously poor people in the inner city are gonna be more violent and have higher rates of crime and substance abuse than over groups. Since poor people in the inner city are largely black, that translates to black populations having those same issues. That, in turn, leads to inherent biases and racist inclinations among both the the general population and (probably even more so) law enforcement. That translates to police discrimination against blacks, which leads to a) even more learned helplessness, which is most of the problem in the first place, and b) more police brutality toward blacks.

The research I've read on the issue suggests that police are faster to consider blacks threats, and faster to pull the trigger on them. That's a problem. (source (http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1798&issue_id=5200)). However, there's also evidence that in certain situations police will actually hesitate to pull the trigger on a minority due to fear of repurcussions (source (https://news.wsu.edu/2014/09/02/deadly-force-lab-finds-racial-disparities-in-shootings/#.VUBCtFUUzGf)). The second source is from after Ferguson and found that, although EEGs record more severe and immediate threat responses in simulations involving an african american, they hesitated slightly (22 ms) longer to shoot out of fear of consequences.

The above suggests that a) police discrimination is part of the problem, b) police discrimination is fixable, and c) the current round of riots and protests is probably doing a lot to change the behaviors of police officers.

Pizza: what part of that opinion makes me insufferable? Or was that just my tone? Anyway, do you agree? I know you disagree that police discrimination is real, but at what point do our opinions start diverging?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 03:32:19 AM
So if I'm reading this right, you're basically making Booker T. Washington's argument that blacks can only achieve true equality with whites by earning it, right?
Close enough. I think that true equality can only be achieved if everyone works towards it, but I do think the majority of the work needs to be done by blacks. Not because it's just, not because it's righteous, but because it's the kind of work that nobody else can really do.

Through the example of Black British people, I'd like to say that I do not believe there is anything about black people that makes them inherently less capable. A Black British person is, for all intents and purposes, a British person whose skin happens to be black. They are just as educated, productive, and integrated into society as any other person might be.

Now, from my perspective, the three main issues African Americans need to tackle (and can mostly only do so themselves, although they can be helped) are education, poverty, and integration with the rest of American society. I'll try to elaborate on these to the best of my ability, bearing in mind that I've only spent a grand total of maybe half a year in America over multiple visits. A vast majority of what I'm going to say here is based on my personal experiences with African Americans, which may be incomplete and non-representative.

Education - Due to historical reasons (which are undeniably the fault of now-dead white people) there is a very large contingent of African American families without a good education. Of course, this is a difficult trend to overcome. My father was the first person to obtain higher education in what was previously a working class family, and I know he's had it tough. I can only imagine how much harder it must be for someone with so much history stacked against them. However, I don't believe there is much we can do to help them unless they go through the same motions everyone else trying to obtain an education goes through. If we make their degrees easier, they'll be less valuable. If we pay them to go to college, the system will be exploited. The process of educating an entire demographic is going to be extremely long and arduous, but it's already happening. What we need to do is ensure that these people are treated fairly - they should receive support, but only when this support is not unfair. Obviously, they should also not be discriminated against.

Productivity - A lot of this is related to education, but there are a few facets that this doesn't touch on. While this image may be somewhat controversial, I feel it touches on the subject quite well.

(http://i.omgomg.eu/criminals)

Unfortunately, the current situation means that the most vocal group of African Americans, the group that's most easily recognised and identified with the ethnicity as a whole, is a bunch of violent rioters demolishing each other's businesses, burning down towns, and looting stores. This is an enormous shame and a very harmful thing for everyone, regardless of race. It creates a divide, and it encourages racist thoughts even in those who may have previously not experienced them. Instead of glorifying the rioters and violence, I would like to encourage progressives to promote the rational black people. There have been so many wonderful examples of those recently. When I was watching the Ferguson riots live, there was this one guy who stood in front of the crowd as it was marching towards some restaurant, and he outright shouted something along the lines of "Don't touch this shit. This here is a good business, they have nothing to do with this. Leave them alone." The Baltimore riots had the angry mother who gave his son a piece of her mind when he decided to participate in the violent activities:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlmCf1Kj2o

and the man who tried dividing the rioters from the police shouting "don't give them a reason":

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/do-not-give-them-a-reason-baltimore-man-divides-police-and-rioters-in-hope-of-avoiding-violence-10208720.html

Those are great examples of mature, productive members of society who understand how basic shit works. Those are the people who should be celebrated in this crisis. Not the crazed people jumping in through the window of a burning store and running away with stolen goods, and not the violent mobs kicking the shit out of police cars because they hate "The Man" so much.

We cannot judge these people any differently than we would white people. If they want an equal society, they can't have that excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl7Q36V9pg4

Integration - The African Americans feel an extremely strong sense of pride in their national identity. While that's fine in principle, it blinds them and stops many of them from being able to accept themselves as part of a diverse nation. In my (limited, but probably above-average) experience of various countries, I have never seen an ethnic group as rigidly divided from the country at large as African Americans. They refuse to speak the same language as others, they refuse to share their culture with others, and they demand special rights from others. This "us and them" mentality is, and always will be, an immediate barrier to equality, unless it is entirely abolished.

I can get behind that, to some extent. But my issue with it is that not much happened during Washington's time. It was only when Du Bois took over and the black rights movement became more militant that change started happening. It might be true that without the progress Washington made Du Bois and the NAACP never would have been successful, but I really don't think Washington's perspective alone is enough to change anything.
Washington's approach is the only way to achieve actual equality. More militant actions took us where we are now - to the very brink of a class war. Yes, the alternative is slow and arduous, but it's the only real option we have.

Here's the way I think about race issues. At this point, it's more socio-economic than anything else. I'm sure we can all agree on that. There are large clusters of impoverished people in America, and those clusters are largely african american just because that's how it's always been. Kids in the inner cities are given worse educations and end up with learned helplessness, which (among various other factors) contributes to a self-perpetuating system of racial inequality.
Absolutely. That's exactly what it is, in my opinion.

Obviously poor people in the inner city are gonna be more violent and have higher rates of crime and substance abuse than over groups. Since poor people in the inner city are largely black, that translates to black populations having those same issues. That, in turn, leads to inherent biases and racist inclinations among both the the general population and (probably even more so) law enforcement. That translates to police discrimination against blacks, which leads to a) even more learned helplessness, which is most of the problem in the first place, and b) more police brutality toward blacks.
Yup. Still with you.

The research I've read on the issue suggests that police are faster to consider blacks threats, and faster to pull the trigger on them. That's a problem. (source (http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1798&issue_id=5200)). However, there's also evidence that in certain situations police will actually hesitate to pull the trigger on a minority due to fear of repurcussions (source (https://news.wsu.edu/2014/09/02/deadly-force-lab-finds-racial-disparities-in-shootings/#.VUBCtFUUzGf)). The second source is from after Ferguson and found that, although EEGs record more severe and immediate threat responses in simulations involving an african american, they hesitated slightly (22 ms) longer to shoot out of fear of consequences.

The above suggests that a) police discrimination is part of the problem, b) police discrimination is fixable, and
That's certainly a problem, but I don't think it can be tackled directly. It's a result of more deeply rooted issues. We can't stop people from wondering about whether or not black people are more likely to be criminals when they currently factually more often engage in criminal activity.

c) the current round of riots and protests is probably doing a lot to change the behaviors of police officers.
Yes, for the worse. I think Blanko (in my IRC quote) in spot-on: any progress that has been made towards ensuring equality between the races is currently being undone by black rioters and the liberal inciters of violence.

Pizza: what part of that opinion makes me insufferable? Or was that just my tone?
Part of it is your tone (but I can't fault you for that - my tone is much worse, and I take an adjustment for that), but most of it is how dogmatic you are about your views. You seem to state as a matter of fact that African Americans currently suffer from enormous amounts of institutionalised racism, and that they're fighting for equality and acknowledgement.

However, after a careful consideration of the facts, it seems very clear that the riots are usually motivated by either personal gain or simple frustration with the quality of the rioters' lives, and usually have very little to do with the alleged subject matter. The Ferguson riots are the most obvious examples of that. Time and time again it has now been proved that Wilson was completely in the right. There's forensic evidence, there's the DoJ report, etc., etc. But none of that matters to the groups most commonly associated with the things you say.

Anyway, do you agree? I know you disagree that police discrimination is real, but at what point do our opinions start diverging?
I agree that there are some racist issues in America. I could, with extreme caution, consider the possibility that some of it is down to trace amounts of institutionalised racism still lurking somewhere within the system. I don't think that's the case, but I could entertain that thought.

You go much, much deeper than that, and many of the views you state come across as the "secret conspiracy of world-controlling racists" scenario you made fun of in your post. To me, it seems that what we disagree on is how systemic the problem is, and how to solve it. To me, the problem is not systemic, and can only be solved through careful evolution of society. To you (as far as I can see), the problem is systemic, and should be solved through a revolution in society.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on April 29, 2015, 03:57:32 AM
Systemic or institutionalized racism can be as simple as public services in minority communities being shitty and underfunded due to the lower incomes of their residents, police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there, or lower zoning costs in minority communities leading to typical NIMBY developments usually ending up in their backyards.  It doesn't mean that there's a group of evil Nazis running the world ready to kick puppies in their eternal quest to keep the black man down, or that everyone who perpetuates this is themselves an evil Nazi with a deep-seated hatred of black people.  What it does mean is that it's a very complicated issue with dozens of factors (some historical, some not) playing into it, and there are no clear-cut, black-and-white solutions to any of it.  It's something that will take many years and many different approaches to properly rectify (if it even can be rectified), and it's not something that some guy sitting at his computer totally has all figured out and that everyone else just needs to listen as God's words flow from his lips.

(This isn't directed at anyone in particular.  I'm just pointing out that there are some shades of gray here.)
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 04:12:58 AM
it's not something that some guy sitting at his computer totally has all figured out and that everyone else just needs to listen as God's words flow from his lips.
Thank you for stating the obvious. Now, let's go back to the actual discussion, bearing in mind that it is, indeed, a discussion and nothing else.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 29, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
Quote
police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there

I guess I'm failing to see how this is racist. If patrols are directed at neighborhoods with a higher crime rate than that has little to do with their race. Sure there is a correlation, but it's not direct racism. If white neighborhoods had a higher crime rate than police would focus on those areas, it's as simple as that. Which seems pretty non-discriminatory to me.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 03:50:47 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/04/how-baltimore-riots-began-mondawmin-purge


Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 04:28:12 PM
Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.

I'm looting this pharmacy and its the police's fault?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.

I'm looting this pharmacy and its the police's fault?

Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on April 29, 2015, 05:07:52 PM
http://conservativetribune.com/black-business-sign/

Conservative media have spin material!

As if blacks rioting wasn't enough.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 05:28:15 PM
Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling

I'm not falling for this le epic ruse. No one thinks this way.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 05:36:18 PM
Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling

I'm not falling for this le epic ruse. No one thinks this way.

No one thinks what way? Inciting a riot is fucked up. If you incite a riot you have some responsibility for the fact that a riot is happening. How is this a controversial line of thinking?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 05:52:52 PM
No one thinks what way? Inciting a riot is fucked up. If you incite a riot you have some responsibility for the fact that a riot is happening. How is this a controversial line of thinking?

You'll do anything to mentally establish this isn't their fault, won't you? "It isn't their fault! :( the police made them do it! The police made them mad!"

Haha. Shut the fuck up. I am utterly disgusted by your spouting of this bullshit. It's not their fault because they're in a crowd? They're human beings. They should act like them, not these goddamn animals in the street. I'm not surprised at all the cops in these cities are utter assholes. Look at who they have to police day in and day out for years and years as a career. I wouldn't piss on these people if they were on fire.

You are what is wrong with politics today. You and everyone like you. You're so busy trying to make excuses for them. What kind of people do you think do this in the first place? What kind of people wait for a funeral and then start burning down their city? Rob pharmacies and beauty parlors? They do that because "fuck the police"? No. They do that because "fuck you, I'll get mine." These people care about no one but themselves and all you can seem to do is try to find flaws with the only people who care enough to keep the place from falling apart entirely.

If the police are so goddamn awful why don't you and your buddies become cops? Help make the system better? Oh, man, but wait, cops don't make much money. Cops have a hard job. You wouldn't like that at all. Damn. Guess you better go back to whatever it is the hell you fools do once you get out of that liberal arts circus.
 
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 06:11:27 PM
Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 06:55:34 PM
Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.

It is literally a case of rioters ruining everything as usual. These people are dumbasses, and no amount of "cops incited them!" will change that. People who are reacting to cops being assholes aren't actually going to go "well, I'm going to rob the CVS, so take that!"

No one comes to the conclusion that if cops are mean to me I should rob more stores. Just like no one comes to the conclusion that this is anything other than the rioters' faults. Goddammit your stupid le epic ruse worked.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 08:16:33 PM
Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.

It is literally a case of rioters ruining everything as usual. These people are dumbasses, and no amount of "cops incited them!" will change that. People who are reacting to cops being assholes aren't actually going to go "well, I'm going to rob the CVS, so take that!"

No one comes to the conclusion that if cops are mean to me I should rob more stores. Just like no one comes to the conclusion that this is anything other than the rioters' faults. Goddammit your stupid le epic ruse worked.

Have you actually read the article? I feel like you're arguing against a position I'm not making.

Have you actually read the article?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 08:18:36 PM
Have you actually read the article? I feel like you're arguing against a position I'm not making.

Have you actually read the article?

How is that relevant to what you said? The nonsense you're claiming makes me wonder if you even read that article.

Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 08:29:53 PM
Alright, let's take this from the top. So, the police received threats that some students were gonna go on a rampage and possibly hurt some people. There were possible gang connections involved. The police responded to that threat by closing down all public transportation and not letting students go home, and just generally being super authoritarian and threatening. They showed up in full riot gear, kicked everyone off the buses, closed the subways, etc. In other words, they intentionally created a massive crowd of pissed-off teenagers, knowing that there was a possibility that some of them were planning to riot.

This means that they a) put kids who wanted nothing to do with the situation at risk by stranding right in the the center of things, and b) unintentionally helped the riot to form by congregating large groups of pissed off people into small areas while wearing full riot gear. I'm making the argument that these actions were dumb as fuck. I'm also saying that, because they made bad decisions that helped to make everything worse, they're partially culpable for all of the chaos. Finally, I'm musing that perhaps this is more of an unfortunate series of idiots being dumb (and to be clear, I include the assholes robbing the CVS etc. under the flag of 'idiots') than the standard 'rioters ruining everything' situation.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 08:36:59 PM
No amount of police incitement justifies actually starting a riot. The police expected violence and brought riot gear, so these people reacted by becoming violent, thus necessitating the riot gear. That is, if anything, giving the police what you claim they wanted.

I'm not arguing the police are justified. I'm arguing (and have been the entire time) that this is the rioters' faults, because it is. It's funny that you scream strawman at me but it seems this entire offshoot of blaming the police is one huge strawman for this riot. If the people didn't start a riot, guess what, the police would be getting a lot of shit right now for being in riot gear for no reason at all. But guess what? There was a riot! Looks like that was justified afterall, eh?

Unless you claim the police mind controlled these people, I will always blame them for tearing shit up. These aren't dogs in a cage, they're human beings, and should have been rational in a tense situation.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 08:52:40 PM
No amount of police incitement justifies actually starting a riot.

I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 29, 2015, 09:03:12 PM
I think Tausami is going the route of slight victim blaming. Was it the woman's fault that the man raped her? No. But it would never have happened if she hadn't been drunk in a rough neighborhood and dressed in a tight dress with hooker boots.

Is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 29, 2015, 09:16:58 PM
Alright, Tausami. I give up. I don't understand what your argument is apparently; since I said the police aren't at fault and you agree with that, I guess there is no problem I have with what you said.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: garygreen on April 29, 2015, 09:25:59 PM
Who is ultimately responsible for the crime and violence of the Baltimore riots?  The people doing the crime and the violence.  I don't think anyone actually disputes this.

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did?  They're all just a bunch of assholes.  This is where I diverge from people like Irush and PP (and I think it's what Tausami is trying to dispute, but I don't want to speak for Tausami).

Anyone who thinks this is any more complicated than 'violent assholes acted like violent assholes' is an intolerable, brainwashed idiot who can't think for themselves, or who has some bizarre ulterior motive for arguing against a position that they know must be false.  This is why I can never take your divergence seriously.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 29, 2015, 09:59:17 PM
What caused the people who rioted to act as they did?  They're all just a bunch of assholes.
For the record, I don't think they're assholes. I think they're misguided, not malicious.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 29, 2015, 10:04:59 PM
I think Tausami is going the route of slight victim blaming. Was it the woman's fault that the man raped her? No. But it would never have happened if she hadn't been drunk in a rough neighborhood and dressed in a tight dress with hooker boots.

Is that what you're saying?

No. I'm saying it's not the driver's fault that a deer ran out into the road and they collided, but that the driver actively swerved into the deer and that if they'd swerved the other way, or just not swerved, things might have turned out differently.

Who is ultimately responsible for the crime and violence of the Baltimore riots?  The people doing the crime and the violence.  I don't think anyone actually disputes this.

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did?  They're all just a bunch of assholes.  This is where I diverge from people like Irush and PP (and I think it's what Tausami is trying to dispute, but I don't want to speak for Tausami).

Anyone who thinks this is any more complicated than 'violent assholes acted like violent assholes' is an intolerable, brainwashed idiot who can't think for themselves, or who has some bizarre ulterior motive for arguing against a position that they know must be false.  This is why I can never take your divergence seriously.

I'm not saying they aren't a bunch of assholes. I think that that's not the entirety of their motivation, but I also think that you have to be a bit of a dickhead to start torching businesses. Literally my entire argument is that the police share some culpability for actively encouraging and cultivating the conditions under which a riot can develop instead of doing literally anything to let tensions die down.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Fortuna on April 29, 2015, 11:55:18 PM
Obviously this has nothing to do with racism. It's just an excuse for people to destroy shit and beat people up. We should just air drop a bunch of game consoles and copies of Mortal Combat into Baltimore.

Also, I think it's hilarious that rioters end up destroying their own homes and then get angry that they live in shitholes. The vicious cycle continues.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 30, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Coming with the same disclaimer as Tausami's Mother Jones article (i.e. I don't know how reliable the source is), this could be a very interesting turn of events if it happened to be true.

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/prisoner-in-van-said-freddie-gray-was-banging-against-the-walls-during-ride/2015/04/29/56d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html)

Can't say I believe that he did this to himself, but it's probably worth watching this space. Also, the comments section is hilarious:

Quote from: notstandinginline
Calm down! The Democrats have only been in charge of Baltimore for 67 years. Give them time to turn things around.
Quote from: mcafla
Too bad the largely Republican corporations shipped the jobs overseas for cheaper wages.
Quote from: JackBootedThug
Too bad the union-beholden Dems taxed the corporations to death, necessitating their move overseas just to remain competitive.

No, YOU did Baltimore!
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 30, 2015, 11:33:11 AM
Actually, forget what I just said. It's all because of the gays.

Texas GOP lawmaker: ‘What is going on in Baltimore’ is because of too many gay marriages - Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/04/texas-gop-lawmaker-what-is-going-on-in-baltimore-is-because-of-too-many-gay-marriages/)
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on April 30, 2015, 11:59:42 AM
Actually, forget what I just said. It's all because of the gays.

Texas GOP lawmaker: ‘What is going on in Baltimore’ is because of too many gay marriages - Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/04/texas-gop-lawmaker-what-is-going-on-in-baltimore-is-because-of-too-many-gay-marriages/)
Which is odd since he says "one or two parent" households.  Which I agree with.  If a single person has to raise a child alone, its hard and often results in less time with the child.
Yet two gay people would be a two parent home.  So, he's in favor of gay marriage?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 02:50:48 PM
Coming with the same disclaimer as Tausami's Mother Jones article (i.e. I don't know how reliable the source is), this could be a very interesting turn of events if it happened to be true.

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/prisoner-in-van-said-freddie-gray-was-banging-against-the-walls-during-ride/2015/04/29/56d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html)

Can't say I believe that he did this to himself, but it's probably worth watching this space. Also, the comments section is hilarious:

Quote from: notstandinginline
Calm down! The Democrats have only been in charge of Baltimore for 67 years. Give them time to turn things around.
Quote from: mcafla
Too bad the largely Republican corporations shipped the jobs overseas for cheaper wages.
Quote from: JackBootedThug
Too bad the union-beholden Dems taxed the corporations to death, necessitating their move overseas just to remain competitive.

No, YOU did Baltimore!

Interesting article. I'm not sure the prisoner would have been able to tell the difference between Gray hurting himself and getting hurt based on sound alone, but it's definitely possible.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on April 30, 2015, 02:56:50 PM
Quote
police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there

I guess I'm failing to see how this is racist. If patrols are directed at neighborhoods with a higher crime rate than that has little to do with their race. Sure there is a correlation, but it's not direct racism. If white neighborhoods had a higher crime rate than police would focus on those areas, it's as simple as that. Which seems pretty non-discriminatory to me.

I agree, but nevertheless, the end result still cuts along racial lines and ultimately exacerbates the problem.  It would be nice if the whole issue could be simplified with pointing fingers and saying things like, "You're racist!" or "No you!" but the truth is too messy for that.  The Wire once pointed out a great example with laws against drinking in public.  The wealthier members of society are free to sit outside in their backyard or on their deck with a drink, but if the poorer members of society want to do something similar, they have to use their front steps, which technically puts them in public and in violation of the law.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 03:26:43 PM
Yeah, what Saddam said. Pizza has made fun of me for saying this in the past, and I understand why, but systematic racism is not always intentionally racist in nature. You don't need to have some KKK dickhead at the top cackling while coming up with new ways to oppress minorities for there to be systematic racism. Intention isn't the point. Having a villain to hate isn't the point. And as I said before the problem has more to do with socio-economics than it does with race, but as long as socio-economic classes correlate with race, it's still a race problem.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 03:54:22 PM
But then it's not a law enforcement problem.

There's not too much that can happen now. Time would just have to sort things out. Like pizaa said, we can't just give out unfair advantages because they happen to be born poor. People need to work to put themselves in a better position. If they are unwilling to work, then things will remain this way and there's not much the government or law enforcement can do to help it.

Maybe ending the war against drugs and improving schools would help, but no one is really fighting for those issues when talking about race problems. Everything is just the "pigs'" fault.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 30, 2015, 04:00:26 PM
but as long as socio-economic classes correlate with race, it's still a race problem.
Ah, I think you've just uncovered the core of our disagreement!

From my point of view, this is not a fair statement. Not all black people suffer from socio-economic disadvantages (even if we disagree on everything else, I think we can agree that Obama is not economically disadvantaged or socially isolated from American culture), and not all white people are safe from poverty, poor education, etc. I would therefore view calling it a race issue as a needless generalisation which detracts from finding actual solutions. It makes people focus on the wrong facet of the issue.

Maybe ending the war against drugs and improving schools would help, but no one is really fighting for those issues when talking about race problems.
This, a thousand times this.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 04:54:44 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm absolutely fighting for an end to the war on drugs and improving schools. For me everything is about education. Preventing terrorism, preventing gang violence, improving economic productivity and competitiveness, improving health, decreasing inequality, absolutely everything comes back to education.

But anyway, I think it's a bit more grey than 'is it a race problem or isn't it'. You're right, Pizza, that it's a massive over-generalization, but it's also a predictive one. As I said before, it seems like the racial disparities in socio-economic classes have real impacts on the view we view race. They make black people feel, subconsciously, inherently inferior to white people even if they aren't of a lower class. That's gonna contribute to learned helplessness and prevent people from escaping poverty. Similarly, even if the intention behind profiling is not racial in nature, the LEOs involved are going to learn to associate blacks with crime and so is the rest of society. That's how we end up with longer prison sentences for black people who commit the same crimes as white people, and racially motivated police brutality. All of this is evidenced by the various studies, some of which I linked in this thread, which show that LEOs are faster to categorize blacks as a threat and, depending on the circumstances, faster to shoot. We can't just ignore the racial elements of the socio-economic problems.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 05:25:12 PM
But I think people are trying to work backwards.

They want people to stop discriminating based on color, but they still live in bad neighborhoods. Rather than just trying to change everyone's perceptions which are based on socio-economic reasons, we should change socio-economic disparities so that those perceptions are no longer based on anything concrete.

You can't destroy your town and hope to prove to people that you're a valuable and contributing member of society. You have to become a contributing member of society.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 05:43:44 PM
But I think people are trying to work backwards.

They want people to stop discriminating based on color, but they still live in bad neighborhoods. Rather than just trying to change everyone's perceptions which are based on socio-economic reasons, we should change socio-economic disparities so that those perceptions are no longer based on anything concrete.

You can't destroy your town and hope to prove to people that you're a valuable and contributing member of society. You have to become a contributing member of society.

Okay. So how do we change socio-economic disparities in such a way that the people currently dealing with them will some some improvement in their own lives before they die? Education will work eventually, but only if we actually work toward it (which we don't seem to be) and only over the course of generations. I think I can understand why someone would be prone to violence if you tell them "I know things are pretty shitty for you and everyone you love, but we're working on fixing the problem and your grandchildren will probably be a lot better off so really I don't see why you're complaining".

There's the personal responsibility aspect of it, like Pizza has said, but I'm skeptical of how much good spontaneous behavioral change can reasonably do on a large scale. Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 06:02:23 PM
Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
That's pretty sad that you'd think working hard, staying out of trouble, and saving money is an exceptional quality from a poor person. People work themselves up all the time. I'd say other minorities tend to do it better than blacks because they seem to understand personal responsibility better.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who destroy shops and others' livelihoods because they're angry that the government isn't taking care of them.

You're asking me how we can give people an immediate benefit to being poor and black. There isn't one. If you expect immediate results and then act like a violent child when you don't get them, you have no one to blame but yourself. It takes a lifetime of work to provide a better future.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2015, 06:13:22 PM
Ray Lewis has the right idea, although communicated in a very aggressive way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GTTdAg1DjY
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2015, 06:16:32 PM
Stephen A. Smith too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7cgHzvWaQ
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 06:17:38 PM
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2015, 06:19:22 PM
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not. 
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 06:22:26 PM
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not. 
I'm not. I think they have the right attitude and it's good to see them shame all the rioters damaging their own community.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 08:06:14 PM
Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
That's pretty sad that you'd think working hard, staying out of trouble, and saving money is an exceptional quality from a poor person. People work themselves up all the time. I'd say other minorities tend to do it better than blacks because they seem to understand personal responsibility better.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who destroy shops and others' livelihoods because they're angry that the government isn't taking care of them.

You're asking me how we can give people an immediate benefit to being poor and black. There isn't one. If you expect immediate results and then act like a violent child when you don't get them, you have no one to blame but yourself. It takes a lifetime of work to provide a better future.

... no. Why do you guys keep shoving stereotypical strawmanny liberal opinions down my throat? I asked how we can make a meaningful difference in a meaningful period of time. That's the extent of what I asked.

And yes, it does take a certain level of exceptionalness of rise out of poverty. Especially inner-city type poverty. It's a lot harder than 'keep your head down and make some money'. I think, and statistics seem to confirm, that we're currently in an equilibrium. Poverty is not going away and the racial disparities are not decreasing. Clearly, we need to change something, and I don't think judging poor people is gonna fix anything. We've already been doing that for centuries.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 30, 2015, 08:11:58 PM
No one has said any strawmans in this argument but you. It is becoming pretty clear that even you have no idea what your argument is, since the words you are saying so clearly don't match your apparent stance on the issue. Maybe you need to take a writing class.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 08:31:26 PM
No one has said any strawmans in this argument but you. It is becoming pretty clear that even you have no idea what your argument is, since the words you are saying so clearly don't match your apparent stance on the issue. Maybe you need to take a writing class.

I said

Quote
So how do we change socio-economic disparities in such a way that the people currently dealing with them will see some improvement in their own lives before they die?


This isn't even an argument. It was a question, designed to see if anyone had any good ideas, since I don't. There's no stance here. I'm not advocating for affirmative action or welfare right now. It was then argued against by Rooster. I would consider arguing against a question to be a strawman.

Out of curiosity, what stance do you think I have that I'm failing to support? In what way am I being inconsistent, aside from the fact that my views have evolved a bit since we started this conversation?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 08:40:35 PM
Honestly, I don't know how you think I argued against a question. I said there was no immediate fix, just hard work and personal responsibility. That's not an argument, that's an answer.

I want to know how you think that racial issues haven't improved. I am genuinely curious how you don't think we're in a better position now than we were in the 60s and 70s. Hell, we've already experienced a huge change for the better in the lives of any blacks that were born before the 60s.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 08:49:37 PM
Honestly, I don't know how you think I argued against a question. I said there was no immediate fix, just hard work and personal responsibility. That's not an argument, that's an answer.

I want to know how you think that racial issues haven't improved. I am genuinely curious how you don't think we're in a better position now than we were in the 60s and 70s. Hell, we've already experienced a huge change for the better in the lives of any blacks that were born before the 60s.

Oh, we're in a much better place than the 60s or 70s. I'd never say otherwise. I'm talking about the last ten years or so. We seem to have stagnated. Wealth inequality between races, for example, stopped decreasing around 2000 according to this graph from Pew Research
(http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2014/12/FT_14.12.11_wealthGap2.png)
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Fortuna on April 30, 2015, 08:56:15 PM
You'll never change socio-economic disparity. It's just something that sucks that's  always been a part of humanity.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on April 30, 2015, 09:02:25 PM
My first assumption would be that the stagnation is due to a certain attitude and mindset rather than a lack of opportunity. There are loans and scholarships aplenty out there for the taking. But now instead of blaming themselves, they choose to blame the government and law enforcement. So I think it might actually keep declining if they refuse to work for their own improvement.

And I'm not judging the poor. I was born into a single parent household of working class. All of my toys and clothes were my brothers' hand me downs. There were several black families in my neighborhood where the kids my age ended up addicted to drugs or having young babies. But I did stay out of trouble, go to college with a scholarship for my good grades, and learn to budget and spend responsibly with no help from my family. So I may not have started from the bottom, but I didn't have even a middle class start yet I still pulled myself up. Of course this is an anecdote, but I just want you to understand that I don't judge them as being inferior and I know it can be done.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 09:12:42 PM
My first assumption would be that the stagnation is due to a certain attitude and mindset rather than a lack of opportunity. There are loans and scholarships aplenty out there for the taking. But now instead of blaming themselves, they choose to blame the government and law enforcement. So I think it might actually keep declining if they refuse to work for their own improvement.

And I'm not judging the poor. I was born into a single parent household of working class. All of my toys and clothes were my brothers' hand me downs. There were several black families in my neighborhood where the kids my age ended up addicted to drugs or having young babies. But I did stay out of trouble, go to college with a scholarship for my good grades, and learn to budget and spend responsibly with no help from my family. So I may not have started from the bottom, but I didn't have even a middle class start yet I still pulled myself up. Of course this is an anecdote, but I just want you to understand that I don't judge them as being inferior and I know it can be done.

Oh, I agree. Learned helplessness and lack of motivation are huge pieces of the puzzle. As much as anything else, I'm wondering how we combat those issues, and more importantly what causes them in the first place.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Hoppy on April 30, 2015, 10:20:54 PM
My first assumption would be that the stagnation is due to a certain attitude and mindset rather than a lack of opportunity. There are loans and scholarships aplenty out there for the taking. But now instead of blaming themselves, they choose to blame the government and law enforcement. So I think it might actually keep declining if they refuse to work for their own improvement.

And I'm not judging the poor. I was born into a single parent household of working class. All of my toys and clothes were my brothers' hand me downs. There were several black families in my neighborhood where the kids my age ended up addicted to drugs or having young babies. But I did stay out of trouble, go to college with a scholarship for my good grades, and learn to budget and spend responsibly with no help from my family. So I may not have started from the bottom, but I didn't have even a middle class start yet I still pulled myself up. Of course this is an anecdote, but I just want you to understand that I don't judge them as being inferior and I know it can be done.
Rooster is black? ???
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on April 30, 2015, 10:27:36 PM
My first assumption would be that the stagnation is due to a certain attitude and mindset rather than a lack of opportunity. There are loans and scholarships aplenty out there for the taking. But now instead of blaming themselves, they choose to blame the government and law enforcement. So I think it might actually keep declining if they refuse to work for their own improvement.

And I'm not judging the poor. I was born into a single parent household of working class. All of my toys and clothes were my brothers' hand me downs. There were several black families in my neighborhood where the kids my age ended up addicted to drugs or having young babies. But I did stay out of trouble, go to college with a scholarship for my good grades, and learn to budget and spend responsibly with no help from my family. So I may not have started from the bottom, but I didn't have even a middle class start yet I still pulled myself up. Of course this is an anecdote, but I just want you to understand that I don't judge them as being inferior and I know it can be done.
Rooster is black? ???

Just like Jesus
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on April 30, 2015, 10:36:29 PM
Not entirely relevant, but a pretty interesting read on culture shock people have when coming to America:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/33vuag/nonamerican_black_people_of_reddit_have_you_ever/
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 02, 2015, 04:00:10 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html

omg
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on May 02, 2015, 07:47:11 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html)

omg
I know right?

Now all those people will think that when you think someone is guilty, a riot will get them arrested and charged.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 02, 2015, 09:08:23 PM
Now all those people will think that when you think someone is guilty, a riot will get them arrested and charged.
Yes, sadly. Even the photos in this article still mention Mike Brown among the people who need justice.

I mean, we can't exactly do more than kill him, so I'd say justice has been served as well as it could have been. :^)
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 03, 2015, 02:14:51 AM
And then there's this (https://twitter.com/hashtag/blackspring).  I'm not entirely sure what it means yet.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 03, 2015, 01:17:42 PM
Although I too am beginning to question some of the deaths in police custody of various people, albeit not all, and I am certainly in favour of people having the right to peaceful protest, the minute it turns to looting and rampage, they should be met with automatic weapons, and their bodies should be left in the street for three days as an example to others who would pull the same shit. Kill the bastards on sight, I don't care if they are black, brown, white, green, or purple, Jew, Gentile, or what.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on May 03, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
Although I too am beginning to question some of the deaths in police custody of various people, albeit not all, and I am certainly in favour of people having the right to peaceful protest, the minute it turns to looting and rampage, they should be met with automatic weapons, and their bodies should be left in the street for three days as an example to others who would pull the same shit. Kill the bastards on sight, I don't care if they are black, brown, white, green, or purple, Jew, Gentile, or what.
Feel tough?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 03, 2015, 01:26:48 PM
Please just ignore him.  I'd rather not see this turn into yet another "Oy vey" thread.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 03, 2015, 01:40:55 PM
This has nothing to do with Judaism or Israel, nor should it. It has everything to do with animals who cannot control their behaviour in the streets of one of our nation's largest cities.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on May 03, 2015, 05:00:34 PM
Killing all of the rioters would cause many, many more problems than it would solve.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 03, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
Killing all of the rioters would cause many, many more problems than it would solve.

I don't think you would have to kill all of them. Just kill a sufficient number of them to indicate that you are NOT fucking around, and that any further bullshit will be dealt with accordingly. Impose martial law, and go from there. The same thing should be done at our borders. An announcement should be made in the UN. As of this date, at 0800 hours, anyone who crosses the border without authorisation will be shot on site, and the military will be present in force to enforce that command. You would kill the first five that tried. No one else, or at least very few, would be stupid enough to make the attempt. End of story.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: juner on May 03, 2015, 05:28:33 PM
Yes, the threat of death always stops unwanted behavior. That's why there is no longer murder in places with capital punishment.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on May 03, 2015, 05:45:48 PM
Killing all of the rioters would cause many, many more problems than it would solve.

I don't think you would have to kill all of them. Just kill a sufficient number of them to indicate that you are NOT fucking around, and that any further bullshit will be dealt with accordingly. Impose martial law, and go from there. The same thing should be done at our borders. An announcement should be made in the UN. As of this date, at 0800 hours, anyone who crosses the border without authorisation will be shot on site, and the military will be present in force to enforce that command. You would kill the first five that tried. No one else, or at least very few, would be stupid enough to make the attempt. End of story.
Considering how many illegals die on route every year, I don't think your reality matches up with actual reality.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 03, 2015, 05:48:42 PM
Capital punishment works fine when it is evenly applied. The reason it doesn't work in the United States is because for example, in California you are more likely to die of old age on Death Row then actually of the death penalty. People actually go through an average of 14 appeals before the punishment is exacted. If the punishment was actually applied, I think you might find that it worked as a deterrent a little better. And if it were brutal and public, it might work as well. You know, the old Henrician way. Hang them by the neck. Cut them down whilst they are still alive. Castrate them. Disembowel them. Burn their bowels before them. Draw and quarter them. And carry the quarters of the body to the corners of the land on a horse calling out in every populated area, this is what happens to those who violate the King's Peace. And make it public. In Henry VIII's time they were popular pastimes. People brought their children and made them watch, and explained that this is what happened to them, "should they fall into a life of crime."

Every single American citizen should be obligated by law to attend an execution on or near their 16th Birthday, in order to know how we punish malefactors. And the above should be the manner of punishment, or something equal in brutality.

DAVE, lets make sure they all die. That way none of them would have a hope of getting here. Right now, they think they will be lucky. Lets assure them that they won't be.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on May 03, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
Saddam was right. What have we done.  :(
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 03, 2015, 06:17:21 PM
How so, IRUSH? It isn't a Jewish conversation, and nor should it be. Its a frank and honest conversation about how to deal with filth.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 03, 2015, 06:35:48 PM
And then there's this (https://twitter.com/hashtag/blackspring).  I'm not entirely sure what it means yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 03, 2015, 07:23:33 PM
I got the reference.  I'm just not sure how it's going to apply here.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 04, 2015, 12:32:28 AM
I got the reference.  I'm just not sure how it's going to apply here.
I strongly doubt it's going to actually apply. It's just nice to mask your violence, looting, and vandalism as a glorious revolution for social change.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on May 04, 2015, 01:45:14 AM
I got the reference.  I'm just not sure how it's going to apply here.
I strongly doubt it's going to actually apply. It's just nice to mask your violence, looting, and vandalism as a glorious revolution for social change.
The only difference between rioters and warriors of social justice is who prevails.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 04, 2015, 01:53:31 AM
Much as I don't like agreeing with DAVE, he has a point. History is written by the hand of the winner, and the winner likes to call himself a warrior of social justice rather than a lowlife rioter.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 04, 2015, 03:08:30 AM
You're right. I guess I just doubt that this will actually lead to anything. I hope I'm not wrong.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 04, 2015, 03:46:54 AM
Although I too am beginning to question some of the deaths in police custody of various people, albeit not all, and I am certainly in favour of people having the right to peaceful protest, the minute it turns to looting and rampage, they should be met with automatic weapons, and their bodies should be left in the street for three days as an example to others who would pull the same shit. Kill the bastards on sight, I don't care if they are black, brown, white, green, or purple, Jew, Gentile, or what.
Quote from: Eighth Amendment of the United States Constitution
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 04, 2015, 07:11:30 AM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Tau on May 04, 2015, 11:16:21 AM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.

That's because you're a psychopath  :)

You're right. I guess I just doubt that this will actually lead to anything. I hope I'm not wrong.

I like to be hopeful. I mean, how often in recent history do we say 'oh yeah, that massive wave of protests across America never led to anything'. It could be good or it could be bad, but I imagine something will happen.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 04, 2015, 12:11:49 PM
I like to be hopeful. I mean, how often in recent history do we say 'oh yeah, that massive wave of protests across America never led to anything'.
We don't. Nobody talks about pointless waves of crime after they have been dealt with. How often do you hear about the recent London riots, for example?

It could be good or it could be bad, but I imagine something will happen.
Well, yeah, I suppose electronics prices might go up a bit.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Lord Dave on May 04, 2015, 12:12:28 PM
You're right. I guess I just doubt that this will actually lead to anything. I hope I'm not wrong.

I like to be hopeful. I mean, how often in recent history do we say 'oh yeah, that massive wave of protests across America never led to anything'. It could be good or it could be bad, but I imagine something will happen.
Occupy Wallstreet.  Massive protests.  Lead to nothing in the end.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: rooster on May 04, 2015, 12:16:04 PM
Well, when you consider that these riots have been going on since the 60s for more or less the same reason then maybe you can say they don't do a whole lot of good.

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/nation/the-10-biggest-ever-american-riots/
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 04, 2015, 02:40:47 PM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.

That's because you're a psychopath  :)

Funny, a lot of the websites I am reading seem to agree with me as of late. In fact, this is one of the few that doesn't.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2015, 02:58:19 PM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.

That's because you're a psychopath  :)

Funny, a lot of the websites I am reading seem to agree with me as of late. In fact, this is one of the few that doesn't.

There are multiple psychopath websites?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Rushy on May 04, 2015, 03:23:31 PM
Oy Vey
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 04, 2015, 04:13:58 PM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.

That's because you're a psychopath  :)

Funny, a lot of the websites I am reading seem to agree with me as of late. In fact, this is one of the few that doesn't.

Of course, the same people burning down their own neighbourhoods are going to be crying "racism" in two years when those neighbourhoods haven't been rebuilt by the government and private industry. They will continue to collect their welfare checks, and of course they will have their looted flatscreen TVs, and of course the latest shoes and smart-phones.

There are multiple psychopath websites?
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 04, 2015, 04:19:29 PM
I don't classify it as cruel or unusual.

That's because you're a psychopath  :)

Funny, a lot of the websites I am reading seem to agree with me as of late. In fact, this is one of the few that doesn't.

There are multiple psychopath websites?

Of course, the same people burning down their own neighbourhoods are going to be crying "racism" in two years when those neighbourhoods haven't been rebuilt by the government and private industry. They will continue to collect their welfare checks, and of course they will have their looted flatscreen TVs, and of course the latest shoes and smart-phones.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Hoppy on May 04, 2015, 11:03:14 PM
Don't you guys know that tbis whole thing is a hoax.
 Freddy Gray, comes between the white and black people, therefore Gray.
 Between the 6 six cops, there were cops named White, Rice, Ceasar and Nero.
 I saw a lady getting interviewed n tv, she was an actress on the Wire. She said she knew Freddy Gray, the the interviewer asked how she happened to know Gray. She said she knew him just from hanging outside in the neighborhood. Baltimore is a small city where, where everybidy knows everybody. That is just plain bs, I work in the hoods in Baltimore all the time. People usually don't know who lives directly next door. I'm just not buying the story of spontaneus uprising.
Title: Re: Baltimore riots
Post by: Saddam Hussein on May 05, 2015, 01:46:15 AM
Don't you guys know that tbis whole thing is a hoax.
 Freddy Gray, comes between the white and black people, therefore Gray.
 Between the 6 six cops, there were cops named White, Rice, Ceasar and Nemo.
 I saw a lady getting interviewed n tv, she was an actress on the Wire. She said she knew Freddy Gray, the the interviewer asked how she happened to know Gray. She said she knew him just from hanging outside in the neighborhood. Baltimore is a small city where, where everybidy knows everybody. That is just plain bs, I work in the hoods in Baltimore all the time. People usually don't know who lives directly next door. I'm just not buying the story of spontaneus uprising.

Before anyone falls for this, I'd just like to remind everyone that hoppy frequently changes his story about what he does for a living and what his areas of expertise are, depending on the discussion he's in.  You'd be silly to take his word as evidence for anything.  Frankly, it's more likely that Yaakov is sincere than he is.