The Flat Earth Society
The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: Thork on April 12, 2015, 10:35:37 AM
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I have noticed that since the new easily accessible IRC occurred, the number of posts per day has dropped of dramatically. There are still as many page views, but it seems people are choosing to use the IRC instead.
Those conversations are in real time and then disappear into the aether. They cannot be joined later as you can't see what is said when you aren't in the room. You can't catch up after you sign off.
Making IRC easier to access is useful for those who use it and like that mechanism, but it looks to be posing a danger to these forums as conversations are shifted onto that platform. Personally I don't use IRC as I like to visit, interact and leave the forum. I may do this for half an hour twice a day for example. I have no interest in maintaining a 14 hour IRC connection to enjoy daily debates.
I doubt anyone will support this notion, but think it an important observation to note. We have all worked long and hard to build a community on these forums, it would be a shame to see it start to decline because a core of the community now choose to interact elsewhere, away from new people who might otherwise one day be a part of that community.
Its one thing to own a nuke, its another to actually use it. I motion that we destroy the new IRC, it is a Pandora's box. Sorry.
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(http://i.imgur.com/ofB0sgB.jpg)
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Blanko, please no low-content posting in S&C.
Thork, your opinion is noted, but ultimately people can use whatever medium they like to have discussions. If we got rid of IRC, someone else could just go set up a third-party chat room somewhere and it would have the same result, except then we couldn't moderate it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't work on the Internet.
Besides, IRC isn't nearly as active as you seem to think it is, and the sorts of things that get talked about aren't the kinds of things that are discussed on the forum (except perhaps in The Lounge, A&E and CN). I suspect that what you're observing is just a natural lull in activity that would have happened anyway.
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In addition to Parsifal's comments about the libertarian approach we're applying:
Looking at the publicly-available forum stats (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=stats) for the past few months, I have to question where the idea that there's currently a lull going on is even coming from. Between the 5th and today, there was arguably one slow day post-wise (the 11th), and that was on par with most of March and February anyway.
Google Analytics also suggests that there has been no drop in the amount of visits to the forum, and in fact shows a slight growing trend:
(http://i.imgur.com/hTC2Kui.png)
As far as I'm concerned, this suggestion doesn't appear to be supported by facts, and as such I can't even begin to take it seriously.
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But IRC is hidden away. IRCs do not engage new people.
Would a compromise be to add an IRC to the main forum page instead? So that anyone new visiting can interact with it? Under the boards of Antichtone for example? Peter/ Paul analogy noted, but IRC is a zero sum game. As we lose people from natural attrition, you need new people replacing them. They won't find IRC when they first visit our boards.
IRC doesn't need moderating so no extra work if an angry noob rants on there, but at least the angry noob is getting a response from the community even if its "Bog off". If noobs want to ask FE questions on IRC, then steer them up to the forums, but they can at least join debates.
I fear you won't like this suggestion either because you all like the enclosed medium of IRC and chatting only with those familiar to you. But FES must be extrovert to grow, even if the vast majority of its members are not.
@Pizza, look at the forum stats. The physical number of posts. I noticed because I arrived here this morning, and there was nothing to read. People are still visiting, but actual debate is taking place elsewhere. I suspect the old IRC has also been acting as a parachute on us for a long time, but now the difference is more marked.
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@Pizza, look at the forum stats. The physical number of posts.
Yes, I did. As I said, I'm not seeing an anomaly. I'm gonna crunch some number in Excel real quick and come back to you with a breakdown.
Would a compromise be to add an IRC to the main forum page instead? So that anyone new visiting can interact with it? Under the boards of Antichtone for example?
That could be done. Do you think the links on our home page are not good enough?
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I think that the forums are the place to interact and it should all be in one place. So you can join all debates at once. IRC is not a natural landing place. It will always be a place regulars hide if its a link.
honestly, if I was on the forum page and saw debate happening in IRC before my eyes, even I would be tempted to use it. Because its right there and I can see the conversation unfolding as I view the rest of the site.
How it remembers the conversation if I click on the wiki or something though, I don't know. Maybe if it always displays the last 30 mins of a conversation so you can scroll back? This way you can catch up on a debate when you first arrive. That's one of the things I hate about IRC. You arrive and you have no idea what was said just before you got there. You can't just jump straight in with everyone else. You have to spark a new conversation.
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And yes, I appreciate this is a lot of work for you guys. You'd need to weigh up effort for reward.
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A quick summary of new posts for the past 3 months:
April (up until and including the 11th)
| Sum: | 1729 |
| Minimum: | 85 |
| Mean: | 157.18 |
| Median: | 158 |
| Days below mean: | 5 |
| Days below median: | 5 |
March:
| Sum: | 2992 |
| Minimum: | 62 |
| Mean: | 99.73 |
| Median: | 93.5 |
| Days below mean: | 16 |
| Days below median: | 15 |
February:
| Sum: | 2365 |
| Minimum: | 25 |
| Mean: | 87.59 |
| Median: | 85 |
| Days below mean: | 15 |
| Days below median: | 12 |
The slowest full day this month so far (the 11th) is the same as an average day in February. So far, April is a much more active month than the two months before it. All in all, the only statistically significant data I was able to see is that we're currently experiencing a slow growing trend. No matter what I do, I can't see the lull you're describing.
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Making IRC easier to access is useful for those who use it and like that mechanism, but it looks to be posing a danger to these forums as conversations are shifted onto that platform. Personally I don't use IRC as I like to visit, interact and leave the forum. I may do this for half an hour twice a day for example. I have no interest in maintaining a 14 hour IRC connection to enjoy daily debates.
I've only been on IRC for the last week or something, but this doesn't ring true to me. I haven't yet seen a debate in IRC about anything but movie topics and booze. Pretty much nothing that happens on IRC is worth preserving for posterity.
I think you're missing the point of IRC. It's not about taking flat earth debates to a new medium. It's a casual conversation atmosphere. It's like a never-ending ice cream social.
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I know it has nothing to do with flat earth. But this is the flat earth society, and the society element of that is important. That's why people stick around. Not to answer your every round earth objection. That is actually very boring.
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I noticed because I arrived here this morning, and there was nothing to read.
So is your entire basis for this argument that today, of all days, there were no new posts that you wanted to read from the time you last checked?
Were there new posts that you didn't want to read?
How long of a time span was it between this morning and your last check?
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I frequented a site that had a live chat window and fora and they were both extremely active. There might be a qualitative shift in the content of posts as the "I like whisky...discuss" posts have more of a life on irc, but I would not worry about anything with a lasting negative effect.
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I'd hate to have a live chat window of our IRC channel. One of the great things about IRC is that I know who's in the room and who I'm broadcasting messages to. If people were able to read the going ons of the chat anonymously, that would defeat the whole purpose.
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I'd hate to have a live chat window of our IRC channel. One of the great things about IRC is that I know who's in the room and who I'm broadcasting messages to. If people were able to read the going ons of the chat anonymously, that would defeat the whole purpose.
What purpose? To have private clique conversations?
I'd guess if you are logged into the forum (have an account here) you are logged into IRC and can join in. Why the secrecy? I can see who is online in the forum. I'd get to see who is available for chat in IRC and be straight up to date with the conversation. Arriving at IRC, seeing a blank page and 15 names on the right is intimidating. You need to be able to gauge the conversation and see if you want to participate.
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I'd hate to have a live chat window of our IRC channel. One of the great things about IRC is that I know who's in the room and who I'm broadcasting messages to. If people were able to read the going ons of the chat anonymously, that would defeat the whole purpose.
What purpose? To have private clique conversations?
I'd guess if you are logged into the forum (have an account here) you are logged into IRC and can join in. Why the secrecy? I can see who is online in the forum. I'd get to see who is available for chat in IRC and be straight up to date with the conversation. Arriving at IRC, seeing a blank page and 15 names on the right is intimidating. You need to be able to gauge the conversation and see if you want to participate.
Why don't you join the IRC for more than two minutes in your life to see what actually goes on in it? For all you know we spend all of our time talking shit about you. Now imagine if you were able to read us talking shit about you without the rest of us knowing you're present.
I'm really not sure why you want to change something you don't care about when everyone else is satisfied with it. IRC isn't influencing forum traffic, and we rarely ever discuss anything that's detracting from forum discussions.
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I know it has nothing to do with flat earth. But this is the flat earth society, and the society element of that is important. That's why people stick around. Not to answer your every round earth objection. That is actually very boring.
Your hostility is entirely misplaced.
For one thing, I'm not sure why you think I'm the sort of user who makes a bunch of posts demanding answers to "my every round earth objection." I literally never do that. Actually, I overwhelmingly do the converse: I pretty much stick to "oh yeah well how do REers explain this??" topics. It's why I'm always antagonizing Tom on NASA threads.
For another thing, I am agreeing with this quote. That's why I said, "[IRC is] not about taking flat earth debates to a new medium. It's a casual conversation atmosphere. It's like a never-ending ice cream social." You suggested that IRC use is trading off with forum use, that interactions should all happen on the forum, and that it's problematic for these conversations to "disappear into the aether." I am disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the two serve different functions. IRC is casual and conversational in a way that the fora aren't. They're not discussions that need to be recorded and displayed. It's a part of the society element.
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Why don't you join the IRC for more than two minutes in your life to see what actually goes on in it?
I have never seen a conversation. Its perpetual silence. I would guess that no one wants to interact with me. I suspect as soon as my name appears, people stop conversing. If the users don't want to interact with me, I leave. I'm not going to ruin your fun by lurking for several hours preventing you enjoying it. I could be wrong, but that's my perception. And if that's how I think of it as someone new to it, I'd guess I wouldn't be alone in coming to such a conclusion.
For all you know we spend all of our time talking shit about you. Now imagine if you were able to read us talking shit about you without the rest of us knowing you're present.
I don't care if you do. But I'm sure others would if it was about them. That's not a very nice thing to support and maintain. It is only going to create paranoia.
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I have never seen a conversation. Its perpetual silence. I would guess that no one wants to interact with me. I suspect as soon as my name appears, people stop conversing. If the users don't want to interact with me, I leave. I'm not going to ruin your fun by lurking for several hours preventing you enjoying it. I could be wrong, but that's my perception. And if that's how I think of it as someone new to it, I'd guess I wouldn't be alone in coming to such a conclusion.
You've never been on the channel for more than a couple minutes at a time. Nobody's avoiding talking to you, you're just not coming in at the precise times there's conversation going on.
I don't care if you do. But I'm sure others would if it was about them. That's not a very nice thing to support and maintain. It is only going to create paranoia.
Well, that's how conversation works in general. In social gatherings, people are only expecting to be heard by people who are physically present, and often conversations are about people who are not present. You're basically proposing that their private conversations should be recorded and broadcasted publically. And you think that's not going to create paranoia?
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I have never seen a conversation. Its perpetual silence. I would guess that no one wants to interact with me. I suspect as soon as my name appears, people stop conversing. If the users don't want to interact with me, I leave. I'm not going to ruin your fun by lurking for several hours preventing you enjoying it. I could be wrong, but that's my perception. And if that's how I think of it as someone new to it, I'd guess I wouldn't be alone in coming to such a conclusion.
You've never been on the channel for more than a couple minutes at a time. Nobody's avoiding talking to you, you're just not coming in at the precise times there's conversation going on.
So my point about being able to read back the last 30 mins to catch up is valid?
I don't care if you do. But I'm sure others would if it was about them. That's not a very nice thing to support and maintain. It is only going to create paranoia.
Well, that's how conversation works in general. In social gatherings, people are only expecting to be heard by people who are physically present, and often conversations are about people who are not present. You're basically proposing that their private conversations should be recorded and broadcasted publically. And you think that's not going to create paranoia?
Recorded? No, just the last 30 mins so you can get up to date. We have pms if you want to send something private. Why are you adverse to real time conversation being viewed by people logged in and browsing the forums? They are freely able to join IRC anyway. I can only conclude that you do want to use the channel to snipe behind people's backs. I'm never going to get on board with that as a concept.
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Take it to irc.
:P
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Take it to irc.
:P
I suspect it is already being discussed in IRC, but the instant I join, that conversation is going to halt. :P
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There's only one way to find out.
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Jesus Christ, Thork. If you'd just use the damn thing for a couple of days you'd figure out how every IRC channel in the world works. Sometimes people are chatting. Sometimes they aren't. Sometimes it's two people having a conversation. Sometimes it's a clusterfuck. Sometimes it's empty all day long. Everyone is on different schedules and timezones. It's unpredictable.
It's meant to be super casual. Pop in and see what's happening. Say some things if you want to. Lurk if you want to. Say BUTTPOOPTASTESLIKEPOOPINMYBUTT. It's whatever.
e: shit is happening in irc right this very minute. tom was talking about some stuff. pizaaplanet was talking about some stuff. rooster is talking about some stuff. stuff is going down. big time.
e2: oh shit now saddam is talking about some stuff, too. this place is bangin'.
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Thork, if you use a chat client, you can log conversations and giggle about them later, like Parsifal does.
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Thork, if you use a chat client, you can log conversations and giggle about them later, like Parsifal does.
Th*rk doesn't know how to use irc clients.
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I don't understand how someone who apparently writes software applications for a living cannot fathom how IRC works.
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Thork is real dumb.
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Actually, Thork, since you are a developer, why not implement the change you're requesting and send us a pull request on GitHub? I can even provide you with a staging forum on my server to test your changes on, if that helps.
It still won't guarantee we'll accept the change, but we're a lot more likely to take you seriously if you show willingness to do some of the work instead of just complaining.
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I haven't developed anything other than a windows phone app for more than 9 months now. I'm a salesman these days.
Besides, I'm not great at websites. I usually just did the javascript. I'd definitely always try to get out of the CSS :p Most of my work was apps for iOS and Android. I don't like coding. Its not a hobby for me, its always been a means to an end ... usually financial.
When you read 'suggestions and concerns', why are you surprised to receive my suggestions and my concerns?
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I don't like coding. Its not a hobby for me, its always been a means to an end ... usually financial.
In this case, the end is a change you want made that nobody else does. When your viewpoint is in the minority, it's up to you to either convince others or do the work yourself.
When you read 'suggestions and concerns', why are you surprised to receive my suggestions and my concerns?
In this case, your suggestions and concerns are rash and counterproductive. They're rash because you made this thread after a single day of lower activity, without waiting to see if it was a running trend or a once-off. They're counterproductive because you're asking us to undo the work we've been doing to improve the site, without contributing anything of your own.
Well-founded, productive suggestions are welcome; incremental improvements most of all, since they are easiest to implement and measure the effectiveness of. This thread is none of those things.
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Thork can't read the conversations because he can't figure out how to get out of the lounge.
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Thork is afraid of missing out on conversations that no one wants him to be a part of.
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Thork is afraid of missing out on conversations that no one wants him to be a part of.
The opposite. If a conversation isn't supposed to have me in it, I don't want to log on in the middle unwittingly. I really can't fathom why you wouldn't allow users entering the chat to see what was said before they arrived so they could join in, unless you did want to use it for bitching behind people's backs. If it is in the latter which I suspect, this is the real reason I don't use IRC.
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So you never walk up to a group of friends to join a conversation if you haven't been eavesdropping on it first?
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I don't walk up to a group of strangers and do it. Is IRC just for a tight nit clique?
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Thork considers everyone here to be total strangers that he just happens to interact with on a near daily basis.
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So new members of the site aren't welcome on IRC?
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You can't talk to new people?
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Sure, if I know what they are talking about.
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So when you meet new people you eavesdrop and then jump in. No introductions or small talk?
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I think Parsifal has made it clear what is expected if Thork wants any changes to be considered. I am locking the thread now since it is turning into a general conversation.