The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Pete Svarrior on September 25, 2014, 04:48:51 AM
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Before I begin, please note that this thread is gonna be pretty grim. It will likely contain content that some may find particularly offensive or "triggering". If you suspect you might be one of those people, I'd like to suggest you move along.
I'll cut the crap. It is my personal belief that a person has the right to end their lives if they so desire. No one else should have a say on that person's decision unless the person in question specifically welcomes it. This, however, raises a number of issues. It would be selfish to think that one's suicide doesn't affect their immediate environment. It means work for some, potential trauma for others, and is generally messy and unelegant. Some people will be left with questions, others might blame themselves needlessly.
So, FES, what would you do to minimise the impact of your suicide?
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Before I begin, please note that this thread is gonna be pretty grim. It will likely contain content that some may find particularly offensive or "triggering". If you suspect you might be one of those people, I'd like to suggest you move along.
I'll cut the crap. It is my personal belief that a person has the right to end their lives if they so desire. No one else should have a say on that person's decision unless the person in question specifically welcomes it. This, however, raises a number of issues. It would be selfish to think that one's suicide doesn't affect their immediate environment. It means work for some, potential trauma for others, and is generally messy and unelegant. Some people will be left with questions, others might blame themselves needlessly.
So, FES, what would you do to minimise the impact of your suicide?
I don't think any rational person wants to kill themself. We all inherently know there's nothing after this. No matter what made up bullshit you want to believe to make yourself feel better. Why would one choose nothing over, say, video games? C'mon now. That's just silly.
To minimize the impact of suicide? Life insurance? If you're really planning on taking yourself out you shouldn't leave your loved ones with nothing. At least pay them for their sorrow.
Does life insurance cover suicide? Sirus question.
If you're asking because you feel depressed and are thinking about it: Take after George Michael and just don't do it.
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I don't think any rational person wants to kill themself. We all inherently know there's nothing after this. No matter what made up bullshit you want to believe to make yourself feel better. Why would one choose nothing over, say, video games? C'mon now. That's just silly.
I agree that it's an irrational decision for one to make. That said, people make irrational decisions all the time.
Does life insurance cover suicide? Sirus question.
It varies between companies. Many won't cover it at all, some won't cover it if it happens shortly after getting a policy.
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A negative life is worse than a no life.
Get rid of your connections to the world by slowly fading out of peoples life, it happens all the time nobody will question it. Then find some pills or something and go out to nature to die, leave a note if someone needs to do something with where you lived. Hopefully animals will take care of the body before people find it and get grossed out.
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A negative life is worse than a no life.
"Maybe a long life does have to be filled with many unpleasant conditions if it's to seem long. But in that case, who wants one?"
"I do."
"Why?"
"What else is there?"
Anyway, I agree that it is the right of every person to do with their own life as they wish, and that includes termination. However, I have no sympathy for people who decide to force others to participate in the process (jumping in front of a train or car, for example). Otherwise, it is very possible to commit suicide responsibly. People who care about you will be upset, naturally, but it's your life to take, not theirs.
Personally, I would gather as many explosives as I could (somehow...) and travel to a remote location. Ideally, I would be able to instantly separate each atom of my body, so I would cease to exist painlessly and leave behind no discernible remains (an idea that bothers me). Since that isn't feasible, I'd have to settle for strapping some plastic explosives to myself, and detonating myself on top of a mountain.
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I'm having doubts about my first post. I feel like I've been trolled. Why is this in complete nonsense?
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Why is this in complete nonsense?
I didn't quite know where to put this. I went for CN because we expect people not to post here unless they accept that they may end up being offended. Perhaps I'm being overly cautious.
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Maybe you jump into a volcano, so nobody would have to mess with your remains. Don't do it. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
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Before I begin, please note that this thread is gonna be pretty grim. It will likely contain content that some may find particularly offensive or "triggering". If you suspect you might be one of those people, I'd like to suggest you move along.
I'll cut the crap. It is my personal belief that a person has the right to end their lives if they so desire. No one else should have a say on that person's decision unless the person in question specifically welcomes it. This, however, raises a number of issues. It would be selfish to think that one's suicide doesn't affect their immediate environment. It means work for some, potential trauma for others, and is generally messy and unelegant. Some people will be left with questions, others might blame themselves needlessly.
So, FES, what would you do to minimise the impact of your suicide?
This week a woman and dragged her child onto the railway tracks at Slough station. I work in Slough and use those trains at that time. Both were killed instantly. However she decided to do this during rush hour. The people on that train were made to stay on it by police for over 6 hours. All other trains into slough from that direction were cancelled. Thousands and thousands of people who pass that way on their way to London couldn't get to work. The driver has been given several months off because seeing child all over the front of his train has made him quite ill. The child didn't get much say in the matter, either.
So yes, you would expect some level of personal responsibility ... but I'm guessing that by the time you feel like you want to actually kill yourself for real, you don't give much of a fuck about anything.
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Let's be clear: there is a very distinct difference between a mental illness causing depression and having a bad life event that causes it.
With that said, I'm fine with doctor assisted suicide. Sometimes the brain just turns on the "Be sad" nob to 11 and doesn't turn it off. And that just sucks beyond understanding.
Also if you're gonna die a slow, horrible death, totally fine.
As for how to do it responsibly, have a doctor help. I'm a fan of carbon monoxide poisoning myself but there are so many ways to die, it's not hard to find something you'll like.
Make sure you have a will.
And be open about your desires to die.
I think that if euthenasia was legal then people like that woman in Thork's story wouldn't have died like that.
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Anyway, I agree that it is the right of every person to do with their own life as they wish, and that includes termination. However, I have no sympathy for people who decide to force others to participate in the process (jumping in front of a train or car, for example). Otherwise, it is very possible to commit suicide responsibly. People who care about you will be upset, naturally, but it's your life to take, not theirs.
This.
And if you are responsible for children or elderly parents you definitely need to make sure you've got them covered financially.
And do it in a way so that children or a loved one won't find your body. Maybe call the police before doing it? I used to know a guy who was the first one to find the body of his father as a child. The dad killed himself by shotgun on the kid's birthday. This kid later committed suicide himself.
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It's a bit of a catch-22 for me. Rational people should be allowed to end their own lives, but the desire to end your life suggests that you are not a rational person.
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It's a bit of a catch-22 for me. Rational people should be allowed to end their own lives, but the desire to end your life suggests that you are not a rational person.
Speaking of which, that quote I posted is taken from one of my favorite conversations in Catch-22.
A couple of people have said now that suicide is irrational. I would like to see some elaboration. What about cases involving painful terminal illness? What about people who simply don't want to live, and haven't for a long time? Wouldn't it be more rational to die rather than prolong your own suffering?
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It's irrational because all animals have a built in desire to survive. Suicidal tendencies are the result of chemical imbalances, and can be treated with medication or simply changing your lifestyle.
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It's a bit of a catch-22 for me. Rational people should be allowed to end their own lives, but the desire to end your life suggests that you are not a rational person.
Speaking of which, that quote I posted is taken from one of my favorite conversations in Catch-22.
A couple of people have said now that suicide is irrational. I would like to see some elaboration. What about cases involving painful terminal illness? What about people who simply don't want to live, and haven't for a long time? Wouldn't it be more rational to die rather than prolong your own suffering?
I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.
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It's irrational because all animals have a built in desire to survive.
Contradicting your instincts is not necessarily irrational. The word "rational" simply refers to that which is reasonable to the sensible mind. People do all sorts of irrational things to satisfy their instinctual desires all the time.
Suicidal tendencies are the result of chemical imbalances, and can be treated with medication or simply changing your lifestyle.
Suicidal thoughts are not always the result of chemical imbalances. When they are, medication and lifestyle changes don't always help. In fact, since neuro-pharmacology is still a very primitive science, medication sometimes magnifies the problem.
I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.
Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.
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It's irrational because all animals have a built in desire to survive. Suicidal tendencies are the result of chemical imbalances, and can be treated with medication or simply changing your lifestyle.
Homosexuality is irrational.
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Certainly. It servers no biological function, and is therefore unnatural.
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Define "unnatural."
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unnatural: something that doesn't serve a bioligical function. Example: homosexuality.
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unnatural: something that doesn't serve a bioligical function. Example: homosexuality.
It does, though. Homosexuals are perfectly able to satisfy their biological sexual urges with each other. I'm guessing you meant "something that doesn't result in procreation", in which case your definition is even more dumb, because using it would define the vast majority of the universe as unnatural.
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Male nipples are unnatural.
Also, Vauxhalls analysis seems very western world privileged. If you live in a hole and get shit on everyday having a miserable life wouldn't be a psychological problem, it would be a fact.
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Male nipples are unnatural.
Also, Vauxhalls analysis seems very western world privileged. If you live in a hole and get shit on everyday having a miserable life wouldn't be a psychological problem, it would be a fact.
I realize this is a thing, and I support an individual's right to take their own life if their life is unbearable and full of misery. However, since I do live in the west, there really isn't that problem here and most people facing hardship have many options available to them. We have it much nicer than some other countries. I don't deny that we are incredibly privileged.
Many incredibly privileged people have taken their own lives in the west. I attribute most of these to psychological problems.
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Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.
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Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.
Have four kids and get on welfare. Then tell me how bad your life is.
Made possible by Jesus.
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Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.
Have four kids and get on welfare. Then tell me how bad your life is.
Made possible by Jesus.
I don't understand. Is it not possible to have four children and be on welfare in the West?
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I think you are both sarcastically trying to argue the same point.
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I've never seen so many coherent posts in a row by Vongeo.
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My crown is dead, and my necromancer has moved graveyards.
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That's more like it.
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To those of you who argue about the rationality of such a decision: I do personally agree that it's irrational. It's usually emotion-driven, sometimes fueled by instability, and rarely by a careful analysis of pros and cons. Of course, exceptions to that exist (and are probably more numerous than they get credit for), but it's a fair enough generalisation to make.
That said, western society currently claims to believe in a person's freedom to make their own decisions, rational or not. Because of that, I don't think we should focus on preventing suicide, but merely on ensuring that it doesn't screw with other people. Now, I'm fully aware that this approach has many fundamental flaws and couldn't be implemented as-is. If it were, we'd probably see chains of suicide, with one person discovering the other and, in the heat of the moment, also committing suicide. I certainly don't have all the answers here, but I do firmly believe that "it's irrational" is not a showstopper.
Many thanks to those who weighed in on the subject so far. While reading more (which, admittedly, is mostly restricted to shitty niche blogs, since the subject turns out to be somewhat taboo), I discovered a point of contention: suicide notes. Some argued that they should be thorough in explaining one's decision and trying to make sure that nobody's left with haunting questions and a feeling of self-blame; others suggested that such a note may be read by people long after one's death and bring back some haunting or traumatising memories. I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I think I'd be leaning towards the long and thorough note.
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A thorough, detailed note also gives the person time to analyse their decision, and may actually work as a preventative measure.
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I'm a fan of carbon monoxide poisoning myself
As am I. I love driving my car, and I can't think of a better way to go than to drive out to some remote location, hook up a hose to the exhaust and sit there serenely with the engine humming. I'd probably leave a note saying whoever wants the car can just take it; that way, I'm not burdening someone with disposing of my vehicle without some form of payment.
As for being responsible about the emotional side of things, I have never had many friends and I don't think it would be too difficult to make myself disappear mostly unnoticed, if I wanted to. I find it interesting that I'm actually more concerned about the practical ramifications of my suicide than emotional ones. In particular, I acknowledge that I make significant technical contributions, both in my day job and as part of running this place, and I consider that to be the primary value of my life.
Curious. I've never consciously acknowledged that before.
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I find it interesting that I'm actually more concerned about the practical ramifications of my suicide than emotional ones.
I'm concerned about both. I don't really separate them in my mind, so I don't think of one as more problematic than the other.
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I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.
Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.
That said, western society currently claims to believe in a person's freedom to make their own decisions, rational or not. Because of that, I don't think we should focus on preventing suicide, but merely on ensuring that it doesn't screw with other people. Now, I'm fully aware that this approach has many fundamental flaws and couldn't be implemented as-is. If it were, we'd probably see chains of suicide, with one person discovering the other and, in the heat of the moment, also committing suicide. I certainly don't have all the answers here, but I do firmly believe that "it's irrational" is not a showstopper.
Well, let's think about it in terms of consent. It's generally accepted that if someone is drunk, underage, or otherwise incapacitated they can't consent to sex. I see suicide the same way. You have the right to a consenting death, but you have to be able to rationally consent.
My rule of thumb for deciding whether or not suicide is acceptable is to think about whether it would be moral to help the person commit suicide. If they aren't in the right state of mind, it would be incredibly messed up to kill them if they asked. Thus, there's clearly something wrong with them dying in the first place. If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be messed up for you to help them.
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I think the most responsible way to commit suicide would involve some kind of a visit to a psychotherapist about it, at the very least.
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I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.
Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.
Is that a claim that can be cited, or are you just creating generalizations out of personal experiences? Even if most suicidal people are delusional, I will still defend their right to make their own decision regarding their life.
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I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.
Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.
Is that a claim that can be cited, or are you just creating generalizations out of personal experiences? Even if most suicidal people are delusional, I will still defend their right to make their own decision regarding their life.
It is pretty well substantiated that people's awareness of their own psychological factors is low and people's ability to recall their emotional states accurately is also terrible.
On self-diagnosis:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/debunking-myths-the-mind/201005/the-dangers-self-diagnosis
On emotional memory:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852439/
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I attempted to take my own life in 2005 with a shit-ton of tylenol pm tablets (100 to be precise). They wouldn't stay in my stomach. I ended up in hospital for five days, and the nut hut for 25 more.
That began a mental odyssey that resulted in 9 more trips to and from the nut hut over the course of the next 4 and a half years, for a grand total of 11 times (I had been in one time before the tylenol as well). Finally, the 11th time, they put me in the Iowa State Mental Hospital at Cherokee for 8 weeks. It was here that I finally got my brain straightened out, got put on some medication that was worth a shit, and got back on the road to living a full life.
Don't get me wrong, I still have my troubles. Anyone with mental illness does. Asberger's Syndrome and Bipolar Disorder can be damned hard to live with. But its a damned sight better than being dead, I'll tell you that.
I don't believe doctors should be allowed to help kill people. What ever happened to "I shall do no harm"? If someone wants to off themselves, that is their personal business, but putting the doctor into the position of becoming a killer is simply indicative of an unconscionable lack of morals. And any doctor who is willing to do it also has few morals, professionally or personally.
Committing suicide is a selfish act. Not taking heroic measures is one thing, but deliberately doing something you know will end your life before its natural termination makes you god of yourself, and denies the Creator of his rightful place in determining the time of one's birth and death.
Of course, most people on this site are atheists, that last paragraph will mean little to most of you. But that is where it is. To deny the Creator of all his rights over you is to be the ultimate in arrogance.
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Can we please try to stay on topic? This thread is not about whether or not suicide is right, or whether or not it should be committed. The topic is: given that a person is committing suicide, what could they do to diminish the impact of it?
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Short of trying to make it look like you died some other way, I don't think you CAN diminish it. I mean, seriously, how do you show your loved ones that you weren't a selfish bastard? That is what suicide is, is the height of selfishness. By committing the act, you prove to all who care about you that you care only about yourself.
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Can we please try to stay on topic? This thread is not about whether or not suicide is right, or whether or not it should be committed. The topic is: given that a person is committing suicide, what could they do to diminish the impact of it?
I would think that a lot of that would depend on the age and health of the person. The impact of young, healthy people committing suicide is generally a lot more severe because young, healthy people aren't supposed to die (especially by their own hands) because they "haven't lived their lives yet". One of the hardest things in the world for a parent to do is to bury one of their children and a suicide would only be that much harder.
However, elderly people and/or people with horrible, terminal diseases would be a much different story. In situations like those, you start getting into quality of life issues and you can start to weigh which would be the lesser of the two evils, so to speak.
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I once had to commute to and from work by train (Now I take Shank's Pony - much nicer.) One day my train was cancelled at peak rush hour because someone had thrown themselves in front of the train. My first thought was not 'How terrible, someone's life has been cut short'' but 'what a fucking bastard, couldn't he have waited five more minutes?' I was totally shocked at myself, how had a ten minute inconvenience overshadowed a distressed man's life?
As hard as it can be, I think we have to treat suicides and the attempted suicides with disproportionate compassion. We don't know what was going through their heads and for those who survive it is sometimes only the care of others which stops them from trying again.
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We don't know what was going through their heads and for those who survive it is sometimes only the care of others which stops them from trying aga
rip
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There's a Jain concept called Sallekhana where the Jainist commits suicide through a long, ritualized fasting process. I like that. It seems, to me, to be the most responsible form of suicide. It tests your determination to die, gives you a long time to think about your choice, and provides the opportunity to set your affairs in order.
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It would also be extremely painful, although I admit, if I had to take my life as a form of civil disobedience, which I have considered doing before, I would choose that method (Gandhi was influenced by Jainism to a point).
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However, elderly people and/or people with horrible, terminal diseases would be a much different story. In situations like those, you start getting into quality of life issues and you can start to weigh which would be the lesser of the two evils, so to speak.
Quality of life issues can arise in young people as well. Health issues aren't the only things that affect quality of life.
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Quality of life issues can arise in young people as well. Health issues aren't the only things that affect quality of life.
True, but in many of those cases, suicide is used as a permanent solution to a what is usually a temporary problem.
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Quality of life issues can arise in young people as well. Health issues aren't the only things that affect quality of life.
True, but in many of those cases, suicide is used as a permanent solution to a what is usually a temporary problem.
Just because something is a cliche to say doesn't mean its true in most cases.
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Quality of life issues can arise in young people as well. Health issues aren't the only things that affect quality of life.
True, but in many of those cases, suicide is used as a permanent solution to a what is usually a temporary problem.
Just because something is a cliche to say doesn't mean its true in most cases.
That's why I said "many" instead of "most". Besides, if it wasn't true most of the time, then it wouldn't be a cliche, would it?
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Cliche comes from spouting something off enough, not its validity.
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I don't know about that. The cliche of FE'ers going off on irrelevant, pedantic tangents seems to hold pretty true.
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Quality of life issues can arise in young people as well. Health issues aren't the only things that affect quality of life.
True, but in many of those cases, suicide is used as a permanent solution to a what is usually a temporary problem.
Just because something is a cliche to say doesn't mean its true in most cases.
Doesn't mean it's false, either. There are probably studies about what percent people who survive suicide attempts are glad to have survived them. That would probably give a good idea of whether or not the problems are as insurmountable as we assume them to be.
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Yea, I just think its overly applied and catchphrasey.