The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Bobby Shafto on October 01, 2018, 03:11:03 AM

Title: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 01, 2018, 03:11:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM7ABwcgYg

This is a New Zealand sunrise.

I've never seen the sun rise like this. I've been to Australia (and Argentina, Chile) but I never paid attention to how the sun rises or sets there.)  I'm used to seeing sunrises and sunsets angle to the right/north. 

Stellarium models sunset at my current latitude north of the equator like this, matching sunsets I routinely observe:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9oIZY1kcrxMaOE6mJS/giphy.gif)

The same day of the year, Stellarium shows an Auckland, New Zealand sunset angling like the video above:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/7A4RYNqecHGEoY2clj/giphy.gif)

This is explicable with globe earth/distant sun mechanics. I don't know how this would work with a sun circling overhead a flat earth. Could this be a feature for zetetically determining whether we live on a globe or a not-globe earth?

(I believe I raised this point early on, or it might have been on the other community board. But I don't think it was every discussed. Has it? Is it addressed in any flat earth (or non-globe earth) media?)

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Edit: I did ask this on this board back in May (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10874.0). Never got a response and I forgot about it. Administration can combine the two topics. I won't complain.


-----

Also: globe-defender Walter Bislin created a flat earth model (http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Flat+Earth+Dome+Model) based on a dome over a monopole earth, and had to add a 2-dimensional (vertical and horizontal) light-bending parameter to make it work.

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/1zmzhgo.jpg)
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/6p2kuo.jpg)
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 01, 2018, 05:50:50 PM
Seems like a pretty easy experiment to replicate. I'm unclear as to how in FET the angles are to be explained, I think that is the main question right now.

Here's sort of a proxy for the experiment - Sydney goes left, Pushkar goes right:

Here’s a sunset from Sydney, Feb, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq8E-yOcoII

Here’s a sunset from Pushkar, India, Feb, 2015. (Start at :13)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8tNJmCkjg


Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 01, 2018, 06:01:29 PM
The question I'm posing -- or, rather the proposition I'm making is that the differing angles of descent are explained by earth curvature and is distinguishing observational evidence that the earth is not flat.

I can't work out a mechanism on a flat earth that would produce that phenomenon. The 2-axis light bending would, but without an explanation and a way to test it, it's just ad hoc. But then since I am already convinced the earth is a globe, I may not be trying hard enough to come up with a flat earth answer.  So I offer it up to the community here for vetting.

I think this shows the earth to be a sphere. Why not?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 03, 2018, 01:26:38 AM
I know some people down under. We are people here. We could set up an experiment where those there and here record a timelapse of the rising or setting sun at the same time.
Compare angles.

And if anyone can come up with an FET reason as to why there's a left/right angle, I'd be super interested as to how that works.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 26, 2018, 06:20:58 PM
I know some people down under. We are people here. We could set up an experiment where those there and here record a timelapse of the rising or setting sun at the same time.
Compare angles.

And if anyone can come up with an FET reason as to why there's a left/right angle, I'd be super interested as to how that works.

The expected angles of descent for the next sunsets as viewed from San Diego in the US and Perth in Western Australia:

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/mhzyv9.jpg)

This is explicable in the globe earth model.

I can find nowhere that this has been addressed in defense of a flat earth or how it could be explained by a sun moving over a flat earth.

Is there skepticism that sunsets at latitudes more southerly than the sun show a trajectory that is different from latitudes north of the sun? If so, I agree I think we can scare up a witness from Australia. I think we have someone from Sydney and someone from Brisbane in our midst.

But if that's not contested, how is this phenomenon possible if the sun is traversing above a flat earth? I think it's impossible, unless light is bending sideways for some reason.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2018, 07:24:24 PM
I know some people down under. We are people here. We could set up an experiment where those there and here record a timelapse of the rising or setting sun at the same time.
Compare angles.

And if anyone can come up with an FET reason as to why there's a left/right angle, I'd be super interested as to how that works.

The expected angles of descent for the next sunsets as viewed from San Diego in the US and Perth in Western Australia:

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/mhzyv9.jpg)

This is explicable in the globe earth model.

That's a pretty big difference in position and setting, for two people looking at the same sun. Please justify why that difference should be so much in the Round Earth model. Here I show that both the moon and sun are barely displaced to observers on far off points on earth, due to the large distances as imagined by the Round Earth Theory.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
The image, as I am using it here, is assuming two observers on the equator. At 45 N and 45 S, the circle that the earth turns on is smaller than the equator, and it will be less... about ~1 degree instead of ~2 degrees.

Updated Image, Top-Down View:
(https://i.imgur.com/XCcKkyp.png)

Using the above method on the Diameter of the Moon's Orbit and the Diameter of the Earth, to compute the difference in viewing angle for the Sun is even worse:

Earth Diameter: 7917.5 mi

Diameter of Moon Orbit: 238,900 x 2 = 477,800 mi

Distance from Earth to Sun: 92,900,000 mi

Circumference of Earth to Sun Radius: 2 * pi * 92,900,000 = 583,707,915.037

583,707,915.037 / 360 = 1621410.8751 mi per degree

(Moon Orbit Diameter) 477,800 mi / 1621410.8751 = 0.29468 Degrees Max

(Earth Diameter) 7917.5 / 1621410.8751 = 0.00488 Degrees Max
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 28, 2018, 07:49:33 PM
I know some people down under. We are people here. We could set up an experiment where those there and here record a timelapse of the rising or setting sun at the same time.
Compare angles.

And if anyone can come up with an FET reason as to why there's a left/right angle, I'd be super interested as to how that works.

The expected angles of descent for the next sunsets as viewed from San Diego in the US and Perth in Western Australia:

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/mhzyv9.jpg)

This is explicable in the globe earth model.

That's a pretty big difference in position and setting, for two people looking at the same sun. Please justify why that difference should be so much in the Round Earth model. Here I show that both the moon and sun are barely displaced to observers on far off points on earth, due to the large distances as imagined by the Round Earth Theory.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
The image, as I am using it here, is assuming two observers on the equator. At 45 N and 45 S, the circle that the earth turns on is smaller than the equator, and it will be less... about ~1 degree instead of ~2 degrees.

Updated Image, Top-Down View:
(https://i.imgur.com/XCcKkyp.png)

Using the above method on the Diameter of the Moon's Orbit and the Diameter of the Earth, to compute the difference in viewing angle for the Sun is even worse:

Earth Diameter: 7917.5 mi

Diameter of Moon Orbit: 238,900 x 2 = 477,800 mi

Distance from Earth to Sun: 92,900,000 mi

Circumference of Earth to Sun Radius: 2 * pi * 92,900,000 = 583,707,915.037

583,707,915.037 / 360 = 1621410.8751 mi per degree

(Moon Orbit Diameter) 477,800 mi / 1621410.8751 = 0.29468 Degrees Max

(Earth Diameter) 7917.5 / 1621410.8751 = 0.00488 Degrees Max

Mr. Bishop, you are pulling from Sandokhans war chest for making an argument looks like.  Your numbers have no accounting for the tilt of the earth nor the orientation of the planet in its orbit around the Sun.  Surely, this information would be critical in describing what is happening.  The bigger point is that it IS HAPPENING.  Just because you don't understand it, changes nothing. Your faulty mathematical experiment to debunk the globe fails badly.  Forget the math part you got wrong, it makes sense on a tilted on its axis globe, it is impossible on a flat earth.

  The point of the OP is How is what we are seeing possible on a flat earth with the sun orbiting above it?   
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2018, 08:04:42 PM
Quote
Mr. Bishop, you are pulling from Sandokhans war chest for making an argument looks like.  Your numbers have no accounting for the tilt of the earth nor the orientation of the planet in its orbit around the Sun.

Bobby posted what two observers see from the US and Australia at the same time. My examples have observers at the maximum possible distance on earth, and the displacement of the sun's angle is "0.00488 Degrees Max"

What does the tilt of the earth have anything to do with it? The same would apply if the earth were rested on its side or upside-down.

Show how it is wrong, or show your own math, rather than baseless dismissal.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 28, 2018, 08:28:14 PM
Quote
Mr. Bishop, you are pulling from Sandokhans war chest for making an argument looks like.  Your numbers have no accounting for the tilt of the earth nor the orientation of the planet in its orbit around the Sun.

Bobby posted what two observers see from the US and Australia at the same time. My examples have observers at the maximum possible distance on earth, and the displacement of the sun's angle is "0.00488 Degrees Max"

What does the tilt of the earth have anything to do with it? The same would apply if the earth were rested on its side or upside-down.

Show how it is wrong, or show your own math, rather than baseless dismissal.

Maybe show why the angle matters at all, assuming your math is accurate with respect to the direction of the sun's movement?  The sun is just setting in a different direction because the viewers are nearly upside down. The concept is very simple.  Explain the difference in directions the sun is moving. Throwing numbers up that have nothing to do with the observation the sun is moving in different directions does not answer the OPs and the obvious question posed to you. 

Are you suggesting that the sun going in different directions is possible on a flat earth or not possible on a globe? 
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 28, 2018, 08:48:00 PM
Bobby posted what two observers see from the US and Australia at the same time.

Not at the same time. The sunsets are the same day but a little over 12 hours apart.

Longitude isn't the point. Latitude is. Substitute Hong Kong for San Diego if you feel "same time" is important. Hong Kong sunset and Perth sunset exhibit same difference in angle of descent characteristic. I understand why that is if the earth is a globe. I know of no explanation for how that can work with a sun circuiting overhead a flat earth. Is there one?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2018, 09:25:55 PM
Bobby posted what two observers see from the US and Australia at the same time.

Not at the same time. The sunsets are the same day but a little over 12 hours apart. Longitude isn't the point. Latitude is. Substitute Hong Kong for San Diego if you feel "same time" is important. Hong Kong sunset and Perth sunset exhibit same difference in angle of descent characteristic.

I don't feel that the "same time" is important. It's the same sunset and there is no difference in the Earth-Sun system 12 hours apart. With your example of Hong Kong and Perth on the same latitude line the same is seen, as you assert.

Quote
I understand why that is if the earth is a globe. I know of no explanation for how that can work with a sun circuiting overhead a flat earth. Is there one?

You understand how it works in RET? Well, as we can see above in my previous posts, I do not understand how this works with the RET Earth-Sun system. I am hoping that you will be able to explain it to me.

Once we discover its cause, which is most assuredly known in RET's astronomical masterpiece, we can then see how that mechanism might apply to other world models.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 28, 2018, 09:45:54 PM
With your example of Hong Kong and Perth on the same latitude line the same is seen, as you assert.

*whispers* longitude
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2018, 10:05:19 PM
With your example of Hong Kong and Perth on the same latitude line the same is seen, as you assert.

*whispers* longitude

I was going off of Bobby's "Longitude isn't the point. Latitude is." It doesn't matter. Rather than pointing out trivialities, how about addressing the substance of the issue?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 28, 2018, 10:18:02 PM
I was going off of Bobby's "Longitude isn't the point. Latitude is." It doesn't matter. Rather than pointing out trivialities, how about addressing the substance of the issue?

Is it so trivial that you need to remove your first reply, which consisted in copy/pasting the definition of latitude for me?

I mean it's no big deal, everybody makes that kind of mistakes. Most often those who don't have an interest in astronomical models, though.

Now that it's cleared up and we're all knowledgeable, I too would like the answer to this question. It seems very interesting.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 28, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
WHY would the Sun go a different direction?  That is easy. The person in the Southern Hemisphere is “upside down” comparatively.  If you are upside down looking at the same object, the object looks different.  If you had a screen, and the left side of it was blinking green, took a picture of it.  That picture shows the left side green right? Now go upside down, take a picture, and the right side of the box is blinking green.   Same thing with directions the sun is moving. If right side up you see an object tracking right, upside down it looks like it’s going left.  It’s the same reason why the moon is “upside down” in the Southern Hemisphere.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 29, 2018, 03:36:47 AM
You understand how it works in RET? Well, as we can see above in my previous posts, I do not understand how this works with the RET Earth-Sun system. I am hoping that you will be able to explain it to me.

For the sun to present an angle of ascent/descent to an observer, there has to be bearing drift as the sun sets. Right?
Locations north of the latitude of the sun's path observe northerly bearing shift at sunset.
Locations south of the sun's latitude observe southerly bearing drift during sunset.
The rate of drift increases the further north or south of the sun's latitude one is (resulting in a shallower angle of descent).
The rate of drift decreases the closer one is to the sun's latitude (resulting in a steeper angle).
If you're at the same latitude as the sun, the sun will rise straight up and set straight down.

Can these observations be met for a sun transiting over a flat surface? I can't solve that riddle unless I can connect west with east without invoking curve, like a Pac-Man or Asteroids video game 2D playing field. Otherwise, the surface needs to curve, bending around on itself, like a cylinder or a sphere, in order to satisfy the above-listed observations. (Distinguishing between cylinder and sphere...or cone or some other 3D curved surface requires more refined comparisons of the rate of bearing drift north or south of the sun's latitudinal path or applying other observations, but since this is a flat vs sphere topic and not a sphere vs. some other convex-surface shape that's not a sphere, I think we can ignore that refinement). 

On a sphere, you can track azimuth drift to a path along a parallel line of latitude that meets all of the criteria above. I am unable to do that for a finite flat plane that doesn't have a space warp to allow the sun to follow a cyclical path without causing one of the above criteria to fail.

Once we discover its cause, which is most assuredly known in RET's astronomical masterpiece, we can then see how that mechanism might apply to other world models.

Have at it. I can't do it, which is why I posed the question. If it can't be done for a flat surface, I think this feature of sun motion provides another distinguishing characteristic between flat and convex earth.

---

Note: a more elegant way to describe this in a globe earth model is to explain how terrestrial latitude equates to celestial latitude but I feared that would bog down with objections or confusion about astronomical concepts which, themselves, might be doubted and distracting. But here's a set of images of the sun and the celestial sphere, showing how over a globe, latitudes are tilted depending on observer location, and how that marries with the angle of the sun's trajectory with the horizon.

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/flhn2o.jpg)

---

Edit to add a video link I made using Stellarium and a projection of the equatorial grid showing how it tilts with latitude changes. The only change from each view is location: Hong Kong, Jakarta, Perth and back to Hong Kong. All other parameters are the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7kIgJQu9h8
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 12:59:53 AM
WHY would the Sun go a different direction?  That is easy. The person in the Southern Hemisphere is “upside down” comparatively.  If you are upside down looking at the same object, the object looks different.  If you had a screen, and the left side of it was blinking green, took a picture of it.  That picture shows the left side green right? Now go upside down, take a picture, and the right side of the box is blinking green.   Same thing with directions the sun is moving. If right side up you see an object tracking right, upside down it looks like it’s going left.  It’s the same reason why the moon is “upside down” in the Southern Hemisphere.

The same upside-down difference can be said for FET. See this example of lunar orientation on FET vs RET:

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
Lunar Orientation

Q: Why does the orientation of the moon look the same to everyone one earth regardless of where they are?

A: It doesn't. The orientation varies depending on your location on earth. In FET this is explained by the different observers standing on either side of the moon. On one side it is right-side up, and on the other side it is upside down.

Imagine a green arrow suspended horizontally above your head pointing to the North. Standing 50 feet to the South of the arrow it is pointing "downwards" towards the Northern horizon. Standing 50 feet to the North of the arrow, looking back at it, it points "upwards" above your head to the North. The arrow flip-flops, pointing down or away from the horizon depending on which side you stand.

The lunar orientation varies depending on where you stand on a Round Earth as well. Here is the RET explanation for why the moon turns upside down when you stand on either side of it: http://web.archive.org/web/20070218184023/http://www.seed.slb.com/qa2/FAQView.cfm?ID=1137
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 30, 2018, 06:41:31 AM
WHY would the Sun go a different direction?  That is easy. The person in the Southern Hemisphere is “upside down” comparatively.  If you are upside down looking at the same object, the object looks different.  If you had a screen, and the left side of it was blinking green, took a picture of it.  That picture shows the left side green right? Now go upside down, take a picture, and the right side of the box is blinking green.   Same thing with directions the sun is moving. If right side up you see an object tracking right, upside down it looks like it’s going left.  It’s the same reason why the moon is “upside down” in the Southern Hemisphere.

The same upside-down difference can be said for FET. See this example of lunar orientation on FET vs RET:

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Seems like apples and oranges to me. We're not talking about 'orientation' so much as angular movement. But if we do look at it statically from an orientation perspective, in the image below, the top two images are Hong Kong, bottom two, Perth, same date and time. Orientation is from the left looking at the sunset and then from the right looking at a sunset for each city. From both opposing viewing angles, Hong Kong still sets at the same angle, to the right. As well, both Perth's set at the same angle opposite from Hong Kong, to the left. At a minimum, I should see the left and right Hong Kong's 'flip', oppose each other according to the wiki. Same for the Perth's. I don't see this as being explained by 'The Phases of the Moon' wiki entry.

(https://i.imgur.com/rlmcfn4.jpg?1)

We can explain this observed behavior in RET. But for FET, we don't know what the model is. Does the sun circle about around a north pole axis? Does is figure 8 or pac-man around a bi-pole model? Or something else entirely? Seemingly, FET doesn't have an answer for this observation.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curious Squirrel on October 30, 2018, 02:03:08 PM
Another way to look at it that I'm hoping will help you visualize what's happening on a globe Earth. On the Equinox the sun passes essentially right over the equator. So someone looking out at the horizon would watch it set vertically straight into the equator. Like the central 'horizon' in the following image. As you've shown above, moving across the Earth can't change the perspective or similar to the sun, so anywhere we go on Earth has to keep that same straight up and down line. Well, if we go to roughly 45°N or S, the horizon has also shifted by about that same amount, as the two 'horizon' lines to the left and right show.
(https://i.imgur.com/yM4B1vK.png)

Now, lets rotate the image so we can see what the guy at 45°N sees the sun doing in relation to his horizon.
(https://i.imgur.com/W3YIxG5.png)

As we can see, the sun has moved to be entering the horizon at roughly a 45° angle, because of the move in the curve of the Earth. Going in the opposite direction would yield a shift towards the other direction as you can see in the images. How is this explained in a FE model, where the sun is spinning around above the Earth, and should only ever be curving in one direction at any one time? Or do you not agree with something being said here, and if so why not? This is all just observation based. RE has a rather easy solution, but I don't have any idea how to make this work on a FE.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 02:53:16 PM
One of the first zetetic experiments I tried to perform when I joined these boards last Spring was triangulation of the sun having board participants take compass readings of the sun and provide their general city of observation (to avoid privacy intrusion). It was actually on the other board where I tried this, but the only FE participant who was responsive  was some character named Brotherhood of the Dome who refused to take part and subsequently claimed to put me on ignore for using Ankara as his hypothetical location instead of Constantinople. I can't remember if I solicited that effort here or not.

This will relate to sun descent angle, but allow me to work through the triangulation process first since it relates.

Sunset was only a few hours ago in Hong Kong, and according to both TimeandDate and Stellarium, it set at 0946 UTC on bearing of 255°. At that same time, the sun was still 10° above the horizon in Perth, on a bearing of 260°. I marked the location of the sun -- where over earth it was at its zenith; but if you plot straight lines from those two locations along those lines lines of bearing on a standard earth map projection, you get...

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2w3yhja.jpg)

...the lines don't intersect at the point where we know the sun to be. How is that resolved?

The above map is a Mercator projection of a globe. The straight lines I drew aren't straight when transformed to a globe. On the Mercator project, global straight lines are great circle lines, which can appear curved when projected onto a flat map, meridians and equator being exceptions on a Mercator projection. If I draw the lines as great circles, originating on 255° and 260° bearings respectfully, I get this:

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/2ngvo2e.jpg)

And transforming the projection into a 2D representation of the globe, the lines now appear wrapping around the globe and straight, just as a string stretched between two points on a ball would look; like this:

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/xbbald.jpg)

That's how a globe earth resolves the triangulation puzzle. Whatever flat earth map winds up being the solution must be able to do that too. The standard monopole FE maps don't. The bi-polar FE map doesn't either. I don't have a solution. If you solve for one set of observations in one part of the world, you ruin the solution for another part.

Which brings me to path of the sun across the sky. I'm just using angle of descent because it's an easy to visualize portion of the sun's apparent path for an observer. Sunrise would work well too.

But as I explained earlier, the sun can appear to travel at an angle as it sets because it's bearing shifts as its elevation declines. The sun is currently sought of the equator on a southerly 13° parallel. It's migrating more toward the south everyday on its way to the Tropic of Capricorn. On the Mercator projection, latitude lines do appear straight and so the sun tracks across the earth as depicted. But if you take the bearing measurements from Perth and Hong Kong throughout the day, you'll find that if plotted on a Mercator projection, they'll appear to advance and triangulate more quickly, accelerating ahead of the sun as it moves toward the west.

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/2zho9zs.jpg)

But at least observers at both locations will see the proper direction of drift: Hong Kong will observe bearing increasing clockwise while Perth's bearing line to the sun will be counterclockwise. So, as long as the parallel (line of latitude) that the sun is traversing is a straight line on a FE map, it will (mostly) produce the correct bearing drift. But if you draw the earth map with the sun's path curving in order to stay at the correct latitude, as with every FE map I've yet seen, it will upset the bearing drift (angle of descent) for either one location or the other.

But on a globe, everything resolves. Here, on a Mercator projection with bearing lines drawn as great circles:

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/256wsg0.jpg)

And here when wrapped on a globe presentation:

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/2dill5z.jpg)


A globe earth has a simple answer for how one location can see the sun angle southward during sunset and another location see the sun angle northward.
If this can be resolved on a flat earth, I haven't figured out how or seen anyone else do so.

I take that back. I have seen one person: flat earth critic Walter Bislin modeled a flat earth using a monopole version of flat earth, but he had to make light bend both vertically and horizontally to do it. He acknowledged he didn't know what could explain such bending, but just that that was the only way he could make it work.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 03:14:15 PM
globe earth has a simple answer for how one location can see the sun angle southward during sunset and another location see the sun angle northward.
If this can be resolved on a flat earth, I haven't figured out how or seen anyone else do so.

The sun is south of you when you are north of it and north of your when you are south of it. Any perspective angle it sets at will be reversed.

Imagine an unrealistically strong baseball player throwing a baseball straight into his horizon. Being directly under the ball he sees it follow a straight path and fall straight down into the horizon.

To someone 200 feet to the left of him, looking into the distance, sees the ball come out from the right side of his view point, which drifts leftward, centered to his vanishing point, since perspective attempts to combine all receding bodies to a point in front of the observer.

To someone 200 to the right of the observer, vice versa.

That this is related to latitude number in any way is only because the latitudes were originally defined that way.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 03:29:11 PM

That this is related to latitude number in any way is only because the latitudes were originally defined that way.
Is the bath of the baseball (line of latitude) straight? Or does it turn left or right?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 30, 2018, 03:30:05 PM
globe earth has a simple answer for how one location can see the sun angle southward during sunset and another location see the sun angle northward.
If this can be resolved on a flat earth, I haven't figured out how or seen anyone else do so.

The sun is south of you when you are north of it and north of your when you are south of it. Any perspective angle it sets at will be reversed.

Imagine an unrealistically strong baseball player throwing a baseball straight into his horizon. Being directly under the ball he sees it follow a straight path and fall straight down into the horizon.

To someone 200 feet to the left of him, looking into the distance, sees the ball come out from the right side of his view point, which drifts leftward, centered to his vanishing point, since perspective attempts to combine all receding bodies to a point in front of the observer.

To someone 200 to the right of the observer, vice versa.

That this is related to latitude number in any way is only because the latitudes were originally defined that way.

That is dodging the question. Latitude were not created to explain anything. They are the result of being a sphere, they work perfectly because we are...  a sphere. 

The sun is setting in a different direction.  On a FE map when the sun is setting it is never doing what is clearly seen in Perth.  Explain at setting the sun's movement please on a flat earth model.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: QED on October 30, 2018, 03:33:43 PM
"To someone 200 feet to the left of him, looking into the distance, sees the ball come out from the right side of his view point, which drifts leftward, centered to his vanishing point, since perspective attempts to combine all receding bodies to a point in front of the observer."

I think it would only drift leftward if the Earth was curved. On a FE, it should continue straight and keep the same azimuthal angle relative to the left-positioned person. Right?

Also, I am confused about your terminology of "vanishing point." The reason why I am confused is that we do not observe a vanishing point, we observe a vanishing axis. Objects which disappear below the horizon do so along a curved axis, but not at the same location on that axis. This is easily demonstrated by watching two ships "vanish." They vanish from sight at different locations.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 03:43:56 PM
I think it would only drift leftward if the Earth was curved. On a FE, it should continue straight and keep the same azimuthal angle relative to the left-positioned person. Right?
No, I think he's right. If earth is a flat plane and you are south of the sun's transit, as the sun loses elevation (somehow) it will also experience southerly or CCW bearing drift (albeit at a decelerating rate which would make the slope of that angled descent curved).

The problem for that explanation on flat earth is that the sun's path over the earth, like the thrown baseball, is straight for that to work. But on every flat earth depiction I've seen so far, the sun's path is circular. Only on the proposed bi-polar map is the sun's path temporarily straight-ish, and then only near the equinoxes. As I said before, to work on a flat map, the sun's path must be continuous somehow and essentially a straight path along a line of latitude that doesn't curve. How do you do that on a flat surface without a GOTO command transporting the sun from west back to east like a space warp?  As soon as you have to bend lines of latitude into circular or elliptical shapes, you defy this observable  behavior of the sun. You'll need bending, reflecting or trickery of light to explain it. I can come up with no geometry that will solve the puzzle except for a globe.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: AATW on October 30, 2018, 04:08:51 PM
Hmm. This is making my head hurt a bit but I think this is the flat earth situation:

(https://image.ibb.co/eUYLcf/Sunset.jpg)

So the sun is going round in a circle above the plane of the earth. If you're at A then you'd see it from one side, if you're at B then you'd see it from the other.
If the sun is going down at an angle, left to right in the top image then if you're at A you'll see it at a different angle to B.
I'm not convinced you'd see it going in completely the opposite direction though - right to left instead of left to right.

 ???
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curious Squirrel on October 30, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
I think you've got it right, at least as I understand it AAtW. An important bit to note here, is IF this is correct, you don't have your ball thrower location in Tom's example above. There IS no location where the sun visibly sets straight down, without light bending in the horizontal direction. Is that what we've got for FE to explain this? Just 'magic'?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 05:33:22 PM
I address the curve of the sun's path as follows:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Imagine an unrealistically strong baseball player throwing a baseball straight into his horizon. Being directly under the ball he sees it follow a straight path and fall straight down into the horizon.

To someone 200 feet to the left of him, looking into the distance, sees the ball come out from the right side of his view point, which drifts leftward, centered to his vanishing point, since perspective attempts to combine all receding bodies to a point in front of the observer.

To someone 200 to the right of the observer, vice versa.

That this is related to latitude number in any way is only because the latitudes were originally defined that way.

Now consider the following:

If it is a windy day and the baseball is being pushed to the right, as it travels through the air and descends into the horizon, would the person 200 feet to the left of the baseball player still see the baseball come in from the right side of his viewpoint and attempt go to center?

Of course he would. Perspective attempts to bring all things to the observer's center.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curious Squirrel on October 30, 2018, 05:56:10 PM
I address the curve of the sun's path as follows:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Imagine an unrealistically strong baseball player throwing a baseball straight into his horizon. Being directly under the ball he sees it follow a straight path and fall straight down into the horizon.

To someone 200 feet to the left of him, looking into the distance, sees the ball come out from the right side of his view point, which drifts leftward, centered to his vanishing point, since perspective attempts to combine all receding bodies to a point in front of the observer.

To someone 200 to the right of the observer, vice versa.

That this is related to latitude number in any way is only because the latitudes were originally defined that way.

Now consider the following:

If it is a windy day and the baseball is being pushed to the right, as it travels through the air and descends into the horizon, would the person 200 feet to the left of the baseball player still see the baseball come in from the right side of his viewpoint and attempt go to center?

Of course he would. Perspective attempts to bring all things to the observer's center.
'Magic' is all I'm hearing here. But let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

If we place an observer on A, B, and C in the following image, with our powerful thrower at B. He throws a ball 3 times, each time it follows a different path X, Y, and Z. According to you, none of these 3 observers will be able to tell the difference between each of these throws?
(https://i.imgur.com/5RyhAG1.png)

If that is incorrect, please try and correct me. If that is correct, what evidence do you have to support this hypothesis?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 06:02:56 PM
In your illustration the horizontal difference of the end point between X and Y is a small difference far out in the distance to the observer, and only occupies a small amount of space, due to perspective. The same applies for the distance between Y and Z.

Not to say that the difference between the two would be "exact" with all variables, but we are not talking about anything "exact" here, only an explanation for why the directions would flip with the position of the observer.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 06:05:11 PM

If it is a windy day and the baseball is being pushed to the right, as it travels through the air and descends into the horizon, would the person 200 feet to the left of the baseball player still see the baseball come in from the right side of his viewpoint and attempt go to center?

Of course he would.

Of course he would what? Come in from the right or attempt to go to center?

Apply your analogy to the most common flat earth sun motion, with the "wind" pushing the sun to the right from the perspective of Perth. This is an old graphic I made, but it happens to include Perth:
 
(http://oi67.tinypic.com/35ho2dt.jpg)

Which way should the bearing line drift as the sun approaches the horizon as seen from Perth on this flat earth?
A. "In from the right" away from "center"; or,
B.  To the right toward "center?"

Looks like B to me. Is that what you mean when you say "of course would?" And yet, in Perth, the sun's bearing drifts left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq8E-yOcoII

Perspective attempts to bring all things to the observer's center.
But they're diverging away from center. From Perth's perspective, the sun is angling southward. From Hong Kong's perspective, it's angling northward.

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/flhn2o.jpg)
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 06:23:10 PM
That video was published on Feb 14, 2015, which is when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 30, 2018, 06:30:13 PM
That video was published on Feb 14, 2015, which is when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.

Are you referring to the FE bi-pole sun 'figure 8' model? If so, where exactly was the sun on Feb 14, 2015 in this model?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 06:41:13 PM
That video was published on Feb 14, 2015, which is when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.
You're basing that on a bi-polar flat earth model. Fine. Let's check that.

Then during Perth's winter, when the sun is circling the North Pole, the sun should set in a right-ward or northerly angle. Does it?
And during Perth's summer, when the sun is circling the South Pole, the sun should set in a left-ward or southerly angle as seen from Hong Kong. Does it?
 
They should be the same.

You're a fan of analogies. Here's one. If the sun is following a racetrack pattern, then let's imagine one observer in the grandstand outside the oval and one on the inner track inside the oval.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2vki3vt.jpg)

As each follows the racers around the track, the grandstand viewer swivels left and right to watch. The inner track viewer has to rotate around to follow the race. Along the western bend, both viewers will be seeing the racers go right. The grandstand viewer won't be seeing the racers go left while the inner track viewer sees them go right.

Flip the track over onto the grandstand viewer so that he is now inside the oval and the other one is now in the grandstand. The situation is changed, but they both would agree on the bearing drift of the racers around that bend.

The challenge is to work out a way for them to watch the racers and see opposite drift. What would that track look like?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curious Squirrel on October 30, 2018, 06:59:04 PM
In your illustration the horizontal difference of the end point between X and Y is a small difference far out in the distance to the observer, and only occupies a small amount of space, due to perspective. The same applies for the distance between Y and Z.

Not to say that the difference between the two would be "exact" with all variables, but we are not talking about anything "exact" here, only an explanation for why the directions would flip with the position of the observer.
What a delightful non-answer, that also provides zero evidence to support your statement. Yes/no the situation described using my image is what you are stating is true. I'm not interested in how accurate/inaccurate the distances are after perspective is factored in (we're talking about distances that will be significant when we're speaking of the sun though I would note). If yes, what is your evidence for claiming there would be no difference between each throw? Because I'm pretty sure if we place two ships at the horizon and put them 200 feet apart you could tell the difference between each ship at that point. So from where do you draw your evidence that the sun would be different when it also involves greater distances left/right as well.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
In your illustration the horizontal difference of the end point between X and Y is a small difference far out in the distance to the observer, and only occupies a small amount of space, due to perspective. The same applies for the distance between Y and Z.

Not to say that the difference between the two would be "exact" with all variables, but we are not talking about anything "exact" here, only an explanation for why the directions would flip with the position of the observer.
What a delightful non-answer, that also provides zero evidence to support your statement.

You need evidence that things are smaller in the distance?

Quote
Yes/no the situation described using my image is what you are stating is true.

Yes, it apples to your image.

 
Quote
If yes, what is your evidence for claiming there would be no difference between each throw?

I didn't say that there would be no difference at all. I said that the observer to the left of the baseball player would see the ball coming in from the right of his view, traveling leftwards towards his center, despite that wind is blowing the baseball to the right during the throw.

To that observer there may be a difference of landing point and specific angle, when comparing with and without the wind, sure.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 30, 2018, 08:03:07 PM
That video was published on Feb 14, 2015, which is when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.

If the sun is curving around the south pole, from this shot on 2/17/2015, I would expect a decidedly southern sunset from this vantage point in Liverpool. Where is the sun in the model you present on this day?

(https://i.imgur.com/rOVDYBN.jpg)

Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 08:39:36 PM
Are you referring to the FE bi-pole sun 'figure 8' model? If so, where exactly was the sun on Feb 14, 2015 in this model?

At sunset on Feb 14th 2015 in Fremantle, the sun was over Angola. It had set just less than a hour before in Hong Kong.

And I see you added Liverpool. Sunset for Liverpool that day, the sun was on the western edge of Peru, about go "feet wet" over the Pacific.

Out of curiosity, and for Tom, I plotted those positions on the bi-polar flat earth map. And it appears to me that though the bearing lines are off in cases, the sunset bearing drift angle WOULD appear to be solved for all 3 spots.

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/122ltow.jpg)

Besides the bearings being off, solving for this particular "angle of descent" puzzle on this day invokes problems for solving other such puzzles. I'll leave it to Tom to decide if he thinks this model answers solves the puzzle or if he can identify what's still wrong.

But yeah, for Hong Kong and Perth, this model, on this day, would answer why the sun descends at the angle observed, with the bearing drift observed.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 08:54:28 PM
If the sun is curving around the south pole, from this shot on 2/17/2015, I would expect a decidedly southern sunset from this vantage point in Liverpool. Where is the sun in the model you present on this day?
The observed Liverpool sunset on 2/14/2015 was on an azimuth of 249° (and it's bearing drift was northerly).
Based on the bi-polar map, a direct line from Liverpool to the sun's location would have a bearing of about 225° (though the bearing shift would still have been northerly as observed, just at a different rate/angle).

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2uzcprt.jpg)

Without regard to the steepness of the angle (aka rate of bearing drift), that would appear the bi-polar projection solves the puzzle I presented. Hoping Tom will identify where it fails.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: QED on October 30, 2018, 09:21:28 PM
I think it would only drift leftward if the Earth was curved. On a FE, it should continue straight and keep the same azimuthal angle relative to the left-positioned person. Right?
No, I think he's right. If earth is a flat plane and you are south of the sun's transit, as the sun loses elevation (somehow) it will also experience southerly or CCW bearing drift (albeit at a decelerating rate which would make the slope of that angled descent curved).

The problem for that explanation on flat earth is that the sun's path over the earth, like the thrown baseball, is straight for that to work. But on every flat earth depiction I've seen so far, the sun's path is circular. Only on the proposed bi-polar map is the sun's path temporarily straight-ish, and then only near the equinoxes. As I said before, to work on a flat map, the sun's path must be continuous somehow and essentially a straight path along a line of latitude that doesn't curve. How do you do that on a flat surface without a GOTO command transporting the sun from west back to east like a space warp?  As soon as you have to bend lines of latitude into circular or elliptical shapes, you defy this observable  behavior of the sun. You'll need bending, reflecting or trickery of light to explain it. I can come up with no geometry that will solve the puzzle except for a globe.

That makes no sense to me: "as the sun loses elevation (somehow) it will also experience southerly or CCW bearing drift (albeit at a decelerating rate which would make the slope of that angled descent curved)."

What causes this drift?

If the Sun's trajectory curves, then its acceleration is non-zero. If that is the case, then there is a force causing this acceleration. In my rest frame, there is no force operative. So I do believe you are mistaken: A setting Sun bound southward in the FE model should continue its decent in a straight path relative to you, and cross the horizon south of me.

Things don't just "drift" unless they are rotating relative to each other.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: TomInAustin on October 30, 2018, 09:35:08 PM
The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time.

I'm sure you will have no problem providing the math and scientific proof on that right?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 30, 2018, 11:44:01 PM
Hoping Tom will identify where it fails.

I'm going to go ahead and answer, and Tom can ponder it.

Apparently solving the sunset descent angles for Perth and Hong Kong with the bi-polar flat earth model wrecks things elsewhere. Sunrises for both cities (which occurred just a few hours ago) are skewed even more by the bi-polar map and the discrepancy of opposite angles/bearing drift is back again, not the mention that the azimuth of sunrise is wildly off.

And if I throw in San Diego, which is approaching Monday sunset after Perth and Hong Kong have enjoyed their Tuesday sunrises, why am I seeing the sun to the west with bearing drifting to the north?

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/11rb3v9.jpg)

There are more problems than simply angle of the ascent/descent of the sun with the bi-polar map. By solving one problem for observers in one part of the world, you create enormous discrepancies that depart from what is observed in other parts of the world. What seemed to work to (maybe) resolve the sunsets for Hong Kong and Perth invokes worse problems for sunrise just a few hours later. It's like a whack-a-mole game of stretching a flat earth here and there to solve localized enigmas only to create more elsewhere.   
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 12:09:15 AM
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 31, 2018, 12:16:34 AM
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents is unknown.

Does North point towards the North pole?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 12:19:49 AM
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents is unknown.

Does North point towards the North pole?

The magnetic field lines are usually explained to branch out of the North and South Poles like the field lines on a bar magnet:

Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

The same way you get from LA to Japan on the Monopole model: Travel Westwards.

In the Bi-Polar Model there are two poles. The magnetic field lines resemble something like the field lines of a bar magnet. Essentially something like this, but in three dimensions:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ex3thmV.gif)

The compass aligns itself with the field lines and adjusts itself when one travels Westwards or Eastwards in the Northern or Southern Hemiplane to go around either the North or South poles.

Since the magnetic field lines in magnets wrap around and interconnect, none traveling out into space in an unconnected fashion, traveling North or South at any point will also take you to either the North or South Pole.

'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 31, 2018, 12:30:21 AM
'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.

Right then I suppose South will take you to the South Pole if you follow it. Then what is this direction?

(https://i.imgur.com/5j0RqEg.png)

When you're at the North Pole, every direction points South. But not this one. So what is it?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 31, 2018, 12:33:29 AM
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.
I realize that, but to assert that it is the solution means you must have some answers. It's a hallmark of zeteticism to observe and collect data to develop theory. You're trying to salvage a theory from speculation and dodge critique by citing the model's lack of substance.

Maybe the reason a good bi-polar model doesn't exist is because it can't. As soon as you bend the path of the sun laterally, you create distortions that have impacts. The best I think you can hope for is to confine those distortions and discrepancies to portions of the earth where they won't be noticed or measured; then when objections are raised you can say "prove it."

Whatever the bi-polar solutions is, it has to satisfy this sun trajectory ovservation. If you can figure that out, good on you. Would be a major breakthrough. Until then, maybe not assert the bi-polar model as the answer when it's still far from formulated. That's anathema to being zetetic.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 12:46:57 AM
It's a very complex topic. Deriving a map from such sun data would require surmounting such difficulties:

- Magnetic declination - North on a Magnetic Compass doesn't always point at the North Star, and the difference can be significant. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination

- Knowledge on how East and West are used in whatever source you are looking at for the activity of the sun.

- Do we know, from what basis, how whatever sun data we are using was generated, or if any part is theoretical?

- Many different possible configurations of a bi-polar map.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 12:55:34 AM
'North' may be in a different direction than North, but will take you to the North Pole if you follow it.

Right then I suppose South will take you to the South Pole if you follow it. Then what is this direction?

(https://i.imgur.com/5j0RqEg.png)

When you're at the North Pole, every direction points South. But not this one. So what is it?

Magnetic Field Lines do not just travel off endlessly into nothing. They wrap around back to the opposite pole to exchange virtual photons. If you were to follow 'South', it would eventually take you to the South Pole.

Alternatively, when you go off the map in that model, you will hit an Ice Wall. Beyond the rays of the sun the waters will naturally freeze.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 31, 2018, 01:06:13 AM
Magnetic Field Lines do not just travel off endlessly into nothing. They wrap around back to the opposite pole to exchange virtual photons.

That's exactly the problem with this map. There is no wrap back, between North and South or East and West.

Alternatively, when you go off the map in that model, you will hit an Ice Wall. Beyond the rays of the sun the waters will naturally freeze.

You're not answering what this mysterious direction is, that takes you from the North Pole to the Ice Wall - or to this location, even if it's not frozen.

It can't be South since it doesn't take you to the South Pole. It can't be North since it takes you away from North. It can't be East or West since you remain in the same longitude.

So what direction is it?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 01:11:53 AM
If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 31, 2018, 01:14:26 AM
If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 31, 2018, 01:27:41 AM
If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 01:40:21 AM
If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on October 31, 2018, 01:58:12 AM
At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

Well if you don't even have a theoretical answer, it won't get any better in practice.

In the real world, East and West are directions that planes can follow, even at the Equator.

The wrap around is given by the sphere. On the bi-polar map, what happens?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 31, 2018, 02:25:33 AM
If you were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

This doesn't answer anything.

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

If were to follow Southward it is entirely possible that you will hit an Ice Wall and assume that you are at Antarctica. If you continue following 'South' on the compass it will wrap and curve around along the edge of the map, across tens of thousands of miles of frozen tundra, until it crosses into water again and crosses an ocean to Antarctica and the South Pole.

One other possibility is that the magnetic field lines die off (curve away towards the South) before hitting an Ice Wall, and if you somehow get into an area beyond the field lines, you are left stranded to die without navigation.

Much in the way of 'possibility'. Maps aside, for all intents and purposes, if there are many different bi-polar configurations to consider, unobserved ice walls, continent orientation is ambiguous, would it be fair to say that in FET, the sun's path is unknown?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.

Understood. But in another breath, you'll mention how the 'ancient's' have known and contributed to FET as we know it and how all of modern astronomy is simply based upon patterned ancient FET observations. It's somewhat flummoxing that an argument can be made as to how the FET sun path is when:

A) FET Models are unknown due to modern budgetary constraints
B) FET Models have been around since the ancients

At the end of the day, FET is not aware as to how the sun paths. So literally no argument can made against how RET explains it.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 31, 2018, 02:34:31 AM
Many of these questions are merely theoretical.

How is that different from the model they question? Especially when that model evades questions by being a theory in search of evidence rather than evidence leading to a theory?

The rigor and demand with which you (Tom) question or don’t question evidence and theories is directly correlated to whether or not it is favorable to a flat earth model or critical of a globe.

I presented an observable phenomenon. You presented a bi-polar model as an answer. But when it is questioned you dismiss them with excuses you would never accept if lobbed at a globe earth claim.

How does this form of investigation meet zetetic criteria? How can you claim to be after truth when you’ve already decided what is true and alter your method of inquiry according to whether or not it helps your truth?

Much about these details are unknown. We do not have the funding to study the matter and rely solely on visitor contributions.

I sympathize, but then shouldn’t you be more reticent about asserting it as an answer until you can answer even basic questions?

I admire the intrepid and undaunted defense, but I simply don’t understand this mindset if it’s supposed to be an honest search for truth. I understand apologetics in the defense of faith, and this strikes me as more akin to that than zetetic inquiry.

Whatever model you wind up with, it needs to answer the OP question (among others). If it can’t yet, then you can’t honestly offer it as an answer and then equivocate when challenged.

And please don’t respond with “et tu quoque” unless you wish to admit you’re no better.

If you want to try to figure out a way to warp the current bi-Polar notional “map” to try to solve the sun trajectory puzzle, I’m willing to help. I think it’s fundamentally unsolvable due to the contradictions it needs to resolve. But you can’t just claim the answers are there and we just don’t know them yet. (Well, you CAN do whatever you want, but it won’t live up to the zetetic principles.)
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: rabinoz on October 31, 2018, 04:22:24 AM

Look, I'm an airline pilot for EvilGlobe Airways, a company that thinks I can circumnavigate by following the Equator.

I take off in Ecuador to land in Indonesia, making sure that my latitude remains 0°. I set the autopilot to follow a straight line.

What happens to me at 180° longitude?

At 180° longitude you may have have been shot out of the sky by a foreign military because you can't simply cross into foreign airspace as you please.

Many of these questions are merely theoretical. Planes fly on set routes.

But some "of these questions are" far from being "merely theoretical". From what you claim they might even be life or death decisions.
I had been planning flying from here in Brisbane, Q'ld, to Hawaii for a few days cruise and I would have been flying back on Hawaiian Airlines flight HA443 taking this flight path:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3vsn2q2gru9h9q/Hawaiian%20Airlines%20flight%20HA443%2C%20Honolulu%C2%A0%28HNL%29%20to%20Brisbane%C2%A0%28BNE%29.jpg?dl=1)
Are you suggesting that it would not have been able to take the route claimed for this flight of 28/Oct/2018 which Flightradar24 claimed flew about 7538 km in 9 hrs 50 mins?

I'm curious. Would it fall off the edge of the earth or have to fly some vast distance to avoid the "ice-wall"?
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubccfpxp7nrb9yx/Flat%20Earth%20Bi-polar%20map%20-%201272.jpg?dl=1)
And any route other than directly across the Pacific would seem to be far further than could be flown in the claimed 9 hrs 50 mins.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 04:31:11 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 31, 2018, 05:43:27 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 06:24:40 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: stack on October 31, 2018, 06:49:01 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.

Correct, there is no map. Apparently, there is no bipolar model either. There's basically nothing to criticize. What semblance of a notion it may be doesn't know where the land masses are, can't predict nor pattern humanity's everyday observations of the sun, or moon for that matter, with any specificity. Not even loosely. So yeah, it's hard to successfully criticize a model that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: AATW on October 31, 2018, 06:58:07 AM
What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.
Well, that's obviously nonsense.
Clearly there are pretty much an infinite number of possible flat earth maps so it is impossible to assess every one.
What you CAN do, and has been done, is show that from the known distance between various places there is no possible way to construct a flat earth map. I believe this is reductio ad absurdum, assume a flat earth, try and construct a map from known distances between places and plot them on a flat plane. If you find you can't (and you do find that, I've seen the results of people trying to do so) then you must conclude that the earth cannot be flat.

Or you could instead just claim crazy things like no-one knows the distance from New York to Paris, the entire global transport and good industry don't know how far places are apart or how fast their various modes of transport go.  :D
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curiosity File on October 31, 2018, 07:00:30 AM
There's a number of phenomena that shows the angle of raise or set of sun and moon that can be observed by the naked eye.
One that was mentioned here was the sun setting below the clouds casting a shadow or sun light on the bottom of the clouds along with a picture of Mt Rainier i believe it was where the sun hit the mountain and cast a shadow dozens of miles to the east across the bottom of the clouds. I've witnessed this phenomena myself in many different places throughout the Pacific coast mountain range where I live. I also travel a lot. I've seen this in the Cascades and Sierra Nevada mountains also.

Here's something to think about. My brothers wife is a stewardess for commercial airlines and has traveled all around the world for the past 30 years. She has described chasing the sun and observed the sun from above the clouds descend below the clouds as it sets. Then upon descent to land seeing the sun once the plane descended below the clouds before it dipped below the horizon.

I leave my house in the evening high above the cloud layer and watch the sun vanish below the clouds. Within 6 to 8 miles I descend 2,500 to 3,000 feet in elevation in less than 15 minutes which puts me below the cloud layer and brings the sun back into view. I see it above then below the clouds.

I also can see the bottom of aircraft being illuminated by the sun after the sun has dipped below the vanishing point of the horizon at dusk.

There are picture of Contrails casting shadows on the clouds above them from the sun shining underneath them from the angle of sun set. I've also witnessed this phenomena my self. 

We can only conclude that the sun dips below the elevation of clouds and aircraft in order for us to physically witness these events.       

       
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: rabinoz on October 31, 2018, 07:37:38 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.
Your own Wiki gives these two and it makes little difference which you close:
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)
The Bi-polar Model reflects the work of many Zeteticists
who diverged from Rowbotham's work
         
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/7/7b/Sandokhan_map.png/900px-Sandokhan_map.png)
Preferred variant of the Bi-polar map of Flat Earth
proponent sandokhan

And if the earth is not a Globe there must be an "edge" where Globe is "cut" to form the flat earth representation, be it at the South Pole or in some other location.
The earth has been "circumnavigated" in virtually every direction including:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.
Why would I "need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment"?

Then why would "magnetic declination" even be relevant? Aircraft these days use Inertial Navigation Systems integrated with the GNSS for absolute positioning.
And while they still have gyro stabilised magnetic compasses these take little part in long-distance navigation and are mainly used locally.

I have a perfectly good "map" of the earth and all of these air routes fit onto "my map" quite well - of course, it only "works" when wrapped around a Globe.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: JCM on October 31, 2018, 12:55:32 PM

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.

You just used the bipolar map to defend the sunset angle question regarding the traditional flat earth map. It literally took 2 seconds to point out it has much bigger problems, there is no way to puzzle piece those continents around to make that work.  The next argument may as well be an spherical hollow Earth with the Sun in the middle notion hasn’t been fleshed out either to someone’s satisfaction despite its obvious ridiculousness. 

Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2018, 01:24:50 PM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

You can ask Sandokan what he believes on this topic, if he is asserting a model or a map, but I have never claimed that there was a map, and neither have the Zetetic societies. The particular illustration is an example only, posted by someone long ago.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 31, 2018, 02:32:02 PM

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

If it's a model and there is no map, then what is the evidence for this declarative statement?

... when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.

How can we test that? What observation does the model predict that we can check?

I'm proposing that a no flat earth MODEL will produce consistent predictions of the sunset trajectory, but when I show you examples of the flaws, you blame it on the map. So, if the model is beyond the reach of verification or falsification due to lack of a map, what good is it? What makes it anything more than whimsy?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on October 31, 2018, 02:48:17 PM
I have an idea. Map or no map, we know for certain what locations are south of the Tropic of Capricorn and north of the Tropic of Cancer, correct? And which locations are between the Tropics too. We may not know their relative distances and angles from each other is what I'm hearing. But latitudes values aren't in question.  Or are they?

I think we can work the bipolar model without a map to test it against this sunrise/set trajectory observation if the above is agreed upon.


----

Edit: I can't find a TFES wiki page on the Bi-polar model. The only mention of a bi-polar flat earth model I could find is on the Flat Earth Maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps) page.

On the Circumnavigation page (https://wiki.tfes.org/Circumnavigation), it says "The Flat Earth is laid out like a North-Azimuthal projection. The North Pole is at the center while Antarctica is at the rim. The continents are spread out around the North Pole." And a representative image of the monopole map is shown.

There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model.

Where is this model outlined?

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

HAD a bi-polar model?
Can you help me out, Tom, and cite the source that is what TFES wiki model currently considers the preferred model?

Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Sea-Earth%20Globe,%20The%20(Zetetes).pdf)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/8xsvn5.jpg)

And Sandokahn's "FAQ" from 2010 (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.30)
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: titidam on November 01, 2018, 01:37:39 AM
Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Sea-Earth%20Globe,%20The%20(Zetetes).pdf)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/8xsvn5.jpg)

The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Curiosity File on November 01, 2018, 03:12:38 AM
Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Sea-Earth%20Globe,%20The%20(Zetetes).pdf)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/8xsvn5.jpg)

The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)

Also is there a bridge over or a tunnel through the ice wall where the two halves of the bi-pole flat earth connect?
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: rabinoz on November 01, 2018, 03:43:18 AM
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

A model near enough to defines the continental layout or at least severely constrains it.

And Zetetes did publish a basic layout as Bobby Shaft posts in:
I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Sea-Earth%20Globe,%20The%20(Zetetes).pdf)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/8xsvn5.jpg)
Once you've gone that far you have to have a boundary (Ice-Wall or whatever) around part of the earth.

This defines an uncrossable line, yet as I claimed before expeditions, circumnavigations, commercial air routes and ocean yacht race have been over almost any boundary you might define.

Rowbotham's North Pole centred model was very smartly chosen for his day because Antarctica was unexplored and there were no crossings of the boundary he created but now even that has been disproven.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on November 01, 2018, 06:07:32 PM
The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)

The dome. That's another piece of ambiguity in the theory, or model, or whatever we call it. Is a dome part of it or not? The publication from which that diagram came refers to a dome and the effects of its aetherial flow in order to explain certain visual phenomena of sun rise and sun set that needs explaining in this particular bi-polar "model."

But I was watching a conversation take place here in another topic in which the stance of TFES is that there is no dome. This is not consensus, of course, and there are FE proponents here who do hold to a dome in their own flat earth models (i.e. Sandokahn, for one), but a celestial dome doesn't appear in the TFES wiki.

So in seems to stand to reason that the bi-polar model espoused by that publication with that diagram is a dome-based model. What's needed here is a no-dome bi-polar model, and it will need to formulate its own explanations for certain sun observations.

Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: zorbakim on November 13, 2018, 04:25:35 PM
wave is answer.
Sun's motion is wave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j9sjHaJwQE
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: zorbakim on November 13, 2018, 11:35:02 PM
Distance to the sun is about 6,700km.
I'll show you the video later.
Video is comfortable for me because of the language barrier.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on November 13, 2018, 11:40:43 PM
Will it have anything to do with explaining the rise/descent angles of the sun?

I ask because I don't understand the connection of your previous video posted above to the topic at hand.

 
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: zorbakim on November 16, 2018, 06:40:20 AM
Will it have anything to do with explaining the rise/descent angles of the sun?

I ask because I don't understand the connection of your previous video posted above to the topic at hand.
Of course. wave principle appears as phenomena, like sun and moon, etc.
Angles of the sun is also.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: Bobby Shafto on November 16, 2018, 02:46:20 PM
Of course. wave principle appears as phenomena, like sun and moon, etc.
Angles of the sun is also.

The explanation still eludes me. It's probably a language barrier, so I look forward to the video.
Title: Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
Post by: iamcpc on November 16, 2018, 03:30:09 PM
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.

I disagree. I have personally travled around North America, South America, and Europe. I have verified that our assumptions about the locations of some of the continents are correct, known, and accurate.

Do you honestly not know that if you drive south from Texas you will get to South America?

Europe is North of Africa.
Europe is West of Asia.
China is on the eastern part of Asia.
Japan is an Island off the east coast of Asia.